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    F-35 Development and News Thread:

    nemrod
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    F-35 Development and News Thread: - Page 6 Empty Why F-35 is 10 Years Behind Older Jets.....

    Post  nemrod on Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:14 pm

    Nowadays, F-22 too is not better situation, for that reason many opinions in the US are loudly asking for a total upgrade of its avionics. The SU-35, and Mig-35 are more than never, the best assets BRICS.
    Let's hope Russia, and China won't fall in the same trap.



    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/26/newest-u-s-stealth-fighter-10-years-behind-older-jets.html


    Newest U.S. Stealth Fighter ‘10 Years Behind’ Older Jets

    America’s $400 billion, top-of-the-line aircraft can’t see the battlefield all that well. Which means it’s actually worse than its predecessors at fighting today’s wars.
    When the Pentagon’s nearly $400 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter finally enters service next year after nearly two decades in development, it won’t be able to support troops on the ground the way older planes can today. Its sensors won’t be able to see the battlefield as well; and what video the F-35 does capture, it won’t be able to transmit to infantrymen in real time.

    Versions of the new single-engine stealth fighter are set to replace almost every type of fighter in the U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps inventory—including aircraft specifically designed to support ground troops like the A-10 Warthog. That will leave troops in a lurch when the F-35 eventually becomes the only game in town.

    “The F-35 will, in my opinion, be 10 years behind legacy fighters when it achieves [initial operational capability],” said one Air Force official affiliated with the F-35 program. “When the F-35 achieves [initial operational capability], it will not have the weapons or sensor capability, with respect to the CAS [close air support] mission set, that legacy multi-role fighters had by the mid-2000s.”

    The problem stems from the fact that the technology found on one of the stealth fighter’s primary air-to-ground sensors—its nose-mounted Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)—is more than a decade old and hopelessly obsolete. The EOTS, which is similar in concept to a large high-resolution infrared and television camera, is used to visually identify and monitor ground targets. The system can also mark targets for laser-guided bombs.

    “EOTS is a big step backwards. The technology is 10-plus years old, hasn’t been able to take advantage of all the pod upgrades in the meantime, and there were some performance tradeoffs to accommodate space and stealth,” said another Air Force official familiar with the F-35 program. “I think it’s one area where the guys are going to be disappointed in the avionics.”

    Ironically, older jets currently in service with the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps can carry the latest generation of sensor pods, which are far more advanced than the EOTS sensor carried by the F-35. The latest generation pods—the Lockheed Martin Sniper ATP-SE and Northrop Grumman LITENING-SE—display far clearer high-definition video imagery in both in the infrared and optical spectrum—and from greater distances. Further, both pods have the ability to beam those full-motion video feeds to ground troops, which provides those forces with vital intelligence information.

    Both pods also incorporate the ability to mark targets with an infrared laser beam—which the EOTS lacks—that helps pilots and ground controllers coordinate their attacks. Some pilots consider the infrared marker to be crucial to the close air-support mission to support ground troops. The F-35 EOTS, which is an integral component of the new stealth fighter, was envisioned as a replacement for targeting pods altogether to preserve the JSF’s stealth frame. (Targeting pods can bulge out a bit, and leak out unwanted signals.) But along with the stealth came performance compromises that also hinder the ability to upgrade the system—the specifications of which were set more that 15 years ago—far before anyone imagined a jet would be providing video imagery to ground forces.

    When the Pentagon had initially drawn up the Joint Strike Fighter program’s specifications during the later half of the 1990s, the EOTS would have been bleeding-edge technology. However, in the 14 years that have passed since the Pentagon awarded Lockheed the contract to develop the F-35, technology has evolved—and the services have gained experience from over a decade of war.

    “It was an awesome system when the F-35 specs were drawn-up in the late ’90s—LANTIRN [targeting pod] was the most advanced pod at that time,” said the first Air Force official affiliated with the F-35 program. “But we’re now a couple of generations beyond that spec with the targeting pods. EOTS is about a [1990s-era Northrop Grumman AN/AAQ-28(V)] LITENING II-equivalent targeting pod.”

    That means that the EOTS camera does not have the range or high-resolution capability that would be found on the current targeting pods carried by American fighters flying over Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. It also means that future F-35 pilots won’t be able to see their quarry in the same kind of detail that they can on current U.S. jets.

    The Air Force is currently using the advanced LITENING-SE on many of its fighters like the F-16, which is about two generations newer than the old 1990s-vintage LITENING II-pod. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin is delivering the new Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod-Sensor Enhancement (ATP-SE) to the Air Force—which is, ironically, an advanced version of the original Sniper XR pod that the F-35’s EOTS sensor was based on.

    More damningly, the F-35 won’t be able to send even its already lower-quality live video down to those soldiers on the ground because its specifications were set before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started. Back then, no one ever imagined needing to beam live video to ground troops from a fighter jet. Nor are there any current plans to add that capability to the F-35.

    “At no point is F-35 fragged to have VDL [video down-link] unless it carries a targeting pod and the F-35 EOTS does not have and will not get an IR [infrared] marker,” the first F-35 official said. “It won’t fit in the space available.”

    The lack of an infrared pointer is a huge problem, according to multiple Air Force pilots with experience flying combat missions in support of ground forces. In aircraft like the A-10, F-15E or F/A-18 Hornet, when ground troops pass target coordinates—or if the pilot spots enemy forces shooting—that pilot can turn on the infrared pointer to highlight the target. If the ground controller—known as a Joint Terminal Attack Controller—sees the “sparkle” from the infrared pointer, he can confirm that the pilot is illuminating the correct target.

    Further, if a pilot sees something of interest, he or she can use the infrared pointer to draw the attention of the ground controller, who can then confirm if the target is hostile or not. “F-35s will never have this,” the first F-35 official said. “It also helps pilots orientate themselves during weapons delivery passes.”

    Officials at JSF-maker Lockheed Martin couldn’t respond to queries by press time, but the F-35 program does not appear to have a plan to rectify the problem.

    One Air Force official said that with enough time and more money, the EOTS could be fixed. “Because in five years when the USAF [US Air Force] comes to Lockheed Martin and says we absolutely need an upgraded EOTS with an infrared pointer and [video down-link], Lockheed Martin says... OK no sweat, that’ll be $5 million per jet,” the Air Force official said. “Thus lies the problem in the U.S. military industrial complex. They purposefully build products that require mass amounts of money to ‘upgrade’ when in fact, they could have planned ahead and built an easily upgradable ship / aircraft / radio / weapon system.”

    One of the JSF officials agreed that the EOTS does not speak well for the Pentagon’s ability to buy new weapons. “EOTS is a poster child for one of the ills of the acquisition process,” the official said. “Because all of the subsystems depend on each other, requirements aren’t allowed to change after the design is ‘finalized.’ It’s not a big deal, unless it takes 20 years to field the jet… then it’s a problem.”

    The end result is that when the F-35 finally becomes operational after its myriad technical problems, cost overruns, and massive delays, in some ways it will be less capable than current fighters in the Pentagon’s inventory.

    “Will the F-35 even have parity with those jets in the CAS mission set 10 years from now? I don’t know, dude. It doesn’t look good.”


    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:45 pm

    @Nemrod: the future Sukhoi T-50 will be the best of BRICS.

    Because nobody has ever put the 10-metre L-band radar on the fighter like T-50.

    One advantage of AESA radar is that, it is not restricted by the traditional radar surface, but people can put the radar on the aerodynamic surface of the airplane.

    And that's why T-50 can have a 10 meter L-band radar.

    But F-22 put the AESA radar on the same surface of PESA Laughing Laughing Laughing

    And F-22 stealth cover cannot escape the ground radio stations of Russia which use a very long wavelength.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:12 pm

    It is known that the PAK FA will get stealthy pod mounted sensors for ground attack missions.

    Most CAS missions are not really suited to stealth aircraft, though the new 5th gen stealthy CAS aircraft they are developing will be custom designed for the role unlike the F-35.
    Battalion0415
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    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:25 pm

    No F-35 to Greece, Germany and Spain of this forums. Bad for this nation's.

    Greece and Spain will buy others and Germany have soon only Eurofighter's.
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    Post  Battalion0415 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:38 am

    F-35 to United States and Sweden I hoped.

    20 to richest in nordic like Scandinavia in english.

    We do not have bigger in Sweden.

    Maybe 70 Gripen C/D in today.

    2 division's in Norrland and one in Saternas.
    Battalion0415
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    Post  Battalion0415 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:33 am

    Only 240 F-35 to USA.

    5+12 = 17 division's with Super Hornets and F-35.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:29 am

    F-35s that have been delivered to USAF, USMC, USN are only for test and training purposes??
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    Post  Kyo on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:07 am

    F-35 Development and News Thread: - Page 6 F-35-lightning-ii-weapons-stations
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:23 pm

    Except that only 4,5,7 and 8 are usable most of the time to retain stealth... and 6 is not a store location is it?

    When not being stealthy the locations 3 and 9 will most likely almost always carry external fuel tanks.
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    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Except that only 4,5,7 and 8 are usable most of the time to retain stealth... and 6 is not a store location is it?

    When not being stealthy the locations 3 and 9 will most likely almost always carry external fuel tanks.

    This is just a propaganda sheet of the attack variant. For WVR combat the AF variant is extremely bulky and its performance is moreover limited by having only a single engine, with a reduced T/W ratio.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:15 pm

    The design was basically compromised for VSTOL, which reduces the performance of all the non VSTOL versions...

    It should be a 5th gen light stealthy F-16. It has ended up more like the AV-8 II... a more limited aircraft.... not a bad one... just not as good as it could be.
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    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:04 pm

    F-35 blueprints hacked by China: Snowden
    nemrod
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    Post  nemrod on Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:01 pm

    Kyo wrote:F-35 blueprints hacked by China: Snowden

    The usual argument. If chineses do something comparable to US, it is because of ...they copy it. How little yellows could do that other than copy the civilization ?
    In fact american establishment is fondamentaly rascist, arrogant, and true uglies. Those who copy the most are americans, those who steal the most are americans, the only one who loot other countries are US. But, when they do that, they are right, because they do only in the goal to save the democraty, and human rights, women rights.
    If you tell me the J-15, J-16 are copies of SU-27, indeed, it is true. If you said me the J-10 is a copy of the Mig-29, yes, it is somewhat a version of copy.
    About the F-35 and the F-22, where is the problem, the JSF is a momunental setback in the aircrafts' history, and the F-22 is far to be US staff  expected. Chineses, russians managed to avoid tragic US errors. It seems it is a successfully road, american's establishement again is jealous.
    When I was younger, I grew up with the idea that soviets lacked of technologies, all their technologies are a mere ironsmith. Soviet could not create, but could only steal US technologies. This is the sad stupidies what we were taught during 50's to 80's. Nevertheless, decades after, thanks to Internet, near all US hardware were crushed during most of the conflicts by the so-called soviet-ironsmith. Furthermore, US hardwares were often outclassed by soviet technologies. Nevertheleess, we had to believe those who control the media, those who brought you informations.
    And now, we could easily expect that the F-35, as their famous F-22 will be surely the next sitting duck of the J-11, j-15, j-16, j-20, j-31. As there were the case for  the Phantom II, and F-105, against Mig-17, Mig-19, Mig-21.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:26 pm

    In fact the U.S. has copied many things.

    F-15 is a copy of MiG-25, but with increased ground attack capability and decreased air-to-air combat.

    F-16 is a copy of Ye-8, but with no canard, simplified air inhale, and fly-by-wire techs. It went to Israel and became Lavi, then Lavi went to China and became J-10. Due to military sanction, China had to bought avionics devices and others from Russia, the country who created the original Ye-8.

    And in an ironic twist of history, Ye-8 departed from Russia and went back to Russia to be improved.

    EU Typhoon is a more modern and complicated copy of Ye-8, too.

    For Russia, AK-47's bolt of Russia is copied from M1 Garand. However, AK bolt lugs are very big compared to M1 Garand, so that the AK bolt can withstand a much better force.

    The problem here is we have to move upward based on the shoulder of our predecessors. So copying is not really a bad thing. The things here is how we improve and modify it.
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    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:33 pm

    China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft
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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:17 am

    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.
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    Post  VladimirSahin on Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:40 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    Honestly I am glad to have people like you, Once I see a comment like that it really refreshes my mind from the ignorant posts I see all around the internet...
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    Post  Manov on Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:51 am

    Regarding the picture above (loadout), what about range? with that load it must have a very near airbase or some tankers, Dont like it a single bit. Stealth doing CAS...it just meh. Or you use it like a F-117 or is just a hugely expensive F-16 cheers
    But i guess everyone knows that by now
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:52 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    The damning fact that the Pro-NATO trolls on F-16 and MP.net forums can wrap their peanut sized brains around... lol1 russia
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:13 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    How did it steal it?

    Working together=/= stealing.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:14 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    How did it steal it?

    Working together=/= stealing.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:31 pm

    Well it is known that the US bought technology regarding vectored thrust on a large powerful engine for the F-35 because no western company had experience with vectored thrust nozzles that could handle a powerful engine in full AB.

    All through the cold war however the US was trying as desperately to steal Soviet technology as the Soviets were to steal US technology.

    In fact the US continues to use these same methods to spy on Russian and ex Soviet and Chinese and also from Americas allies.

    BTW just because the Chinese stole information about the F-35 it doesn't mean they will make one... they might just use the information to find weaknesses their own designs can exploit.
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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:32 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    How did it steal it?

    Working together=/= stealing.

    Working together during the 90's with YAK company untill the point where US got all information and technology needed to do it themselfs and than afterwards dropping YAK from the JSF engine programm is stealing.

    If i use your work to the point it benefits me and drop you later that you can't benefit later is nothing else but stealing of technology.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:33 am

    Yak was not forced to share any data with LM.

    That is not what stealing is.

    Plus, they got some basic engine concepts from Yak, not an entire system. Yak's role in the F-35s propulsion is grossly overstated by some.
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:53 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:China dismisses allegations of F-35 data theft

    Funny, americunts accusing china of theft of F-35 technology where the US stole YAK-141 engine technology.

    How did it steal it?

    Working together=/= stealing.

    No, but never giving a hint of credit in any way or form to prior achievements is still a low blow, and is typical of American propaganda (never outright lie, just withhold the truth). The only grudging respect I've heard Lockheed give was directed towards the Harrier. Outside of allied funding, they're extremely slow to talk about other country's participation, even when it comes to bedmates.

    Not that any country in its right mind should want association with this farce of a project, let alone Russia.

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