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    Common Lies, Russophobia, Nonsense on Russia

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:41 pm

    Japan demonstrates that reliance on the air force and navy is not good enough. The US is in a similar idiot mode today. They
    think that their air power is the silver bullet that will win all their wars. Of course, their land forces are not relatively backward
    like in the case of Japan, but they are not all that either.

    Most of the image about US military power is a fantasy fiction and propaganda generated scarecrow. The US is not prepared or
    able to take on Russia at all. That is why they are dangerous and will start a nuclear war if things go south. Their imbecilic hubris
    gets them going and then when things don't go according to their delusional plans, they will chicken shit style resort to desperate
    escalation.

    All the "thinking" in Washington about conventional war with Russia and pre-emptive nuclear strikes eliminating Russia's nuclear
    potential is pure delusional retardation.

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    Post  higurashihougi Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:04 pm

    Having a capable, long range navy and airforces allow you to and carry out military operations far from you homebase and project your power to the oversea territories, including the ones who will become your preys or are being bloodsucked dry by you.

    The targets and interests of Imperial Japan and the U.S. tailored them into considerable investment in navy and naval aviation.

    And by the way Japan surrendered NOT because of the nuke bombs.
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:09 pm

    The defeat of the 1 million man strong Kwantung army by Soviet forces did more to stop Japan than all of the US carrier war.
    The US, being the opportunist turds that they are, dropped nukes on Japan to claim "victory" and to scare the USSR.

    Japan already changed its policy after its defeat at Khalkin Gol in 1939. Revisionist yanqui history systematically omits
    all of Japan's military losses on the mainland. It inserts carrier battles and nuclear bombings as the full essence of the
    Pacific war. The US revisionist propaganda after WWII claims that it won the war against Hitler as well.



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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:20 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Are you really sure what you are discussing?
    That is my fault, I should have been more precise.
    The context clearly shows that I was talking about Japanese land forces, but I could have put it more clear.
    Japanese army - not AF or Navy - was a third-rate one if compared to the European theatre of operations.
    It sucked at functionally any level, from the soldier's individual gear, to the tactics.
    They have lacked modern equipment, tanks, artillery, means of transport, machine guns, artillery assets & communication
    Individual soldier gear was inferior by any standard if compared to functionally any European army.
    Due to lack of resources, there was functionally no technological progress, so in 1945 land forces of Japan were hardly distinguished from the army that fought China a decade earlier.
    Till the end of the war, Japanese soldier was armed with Type 38 rifle, the very same that proved to be already outdated during the war with China.
    Type 99 was not something that would change the general picture.
    The whole production of submachine guns was around 10 000 pcs. For a whole war.
    The best machine gun they have - Type 99 - represented a standard of European 30s, while the best heavy machine gun - Type 92 - used to be called "woodpecker". Because that was it's real rate of fire. Feed with ammo bars.
    The main reason for it was the Navy and AF, which sucked most of the resources&production potential.
    There is not much more to discuss here. scratch

    I realize that you were referring to the IJA (the army) and that's why I spent 90% of my response covering exactly them and showing why in fact, they were perfectly adequate for the task at hand as well.

    How could that third-rate army have forced the Soviet one into a stale-mate at Khalkin-Gol for a while, stormed with minimal losses all British and Dutch colonial possessions in South-East Asia, evicted the Americans from the Phillipines again with minimal losses, all the while having to keep the bulk of their army in China for the entire war, where they succeeded in occupying most major Chinese cities and its seaboard despite being outnumbered over 10:1? Of course they were not fighting first-rate European and American divisions in these campaigns, but often colonial troops - but the Japanese still brushed them aside very convincingly.
    In Malaya, European racial underestimation of the Japanese led to such a rout of their forces, that even Hitler was shocked. The British were convinced that the Japanese Air Force had nothing worthwhile and didn't bother bringing any significant amount of aircraft to the theater in advance. While Japanese naval and air superiority was their key advantage - these were all land battles.

    It took the Americans nearly 4 years of island-hopping amphibious operations to get the Japanese home islands. They weren't having a good time against the dug-in Japanese defenders. In fact taking huge casualties even when outnumbering them and with the benefit of naval support.

    I know their machine-guns sucked, and their artillery was outdated, their AT guns were small caliber, and their tanks were inadequate. But for the enemies they were up against they were typically at parity, or in the case of China - at superiority. They had trouble against the British Matilda tanks in some theater but there wasn't a battle against the British that they lost until 1944, so it didn't matter.

    For that matter I don't believe the Italians or anyone on the Axis other than the Germans, appreciably modernized and upgraded their arsenals during the course of the war. The Japanese did of course, but their efforts had to be focused on their navy and air force rather than their army. Their army used what it had quite well nevertheless.

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:04 pm

    The answer to your question is very easy.
    All the armies they have faced and you are calling, represented a 30s standard, and that was the very last moment when the Japanese army could match.
    Think for a moment about the impetus of technological progress in the whole 30-40s.
    The thing that used to be perfectly fine in 1935, was totally outdated in 1940.
    A gear that used to be just perfectly modern in the Spanish civil war, was already an archaism in 1939 ...
    Poland used to have one of the most modern air fleet in Europe in the early 30s .
    It lasted modern till the mid of 30s...
    Took 5 years to make a great gear that used to be winning world salons, with waste export potentials, and actually widely exported - totally obsolete.
    The British army in the 30s?  With its overall strength and potential?
    The Dutch colonial army? It can be considered as a stand-up story only. Dutch resistance lasted for a whole 4 days under the Fall Gelb.
    The Chinese? Geared with German stuff they procured from different sources after WWI?
    Who teached the Japanese the suicidal attacks due to lack of any other hope?
    All the Axis allies used to operate the German gear. Bulgaria itself equipped its army with about double the number of submachine guns if compare to Japan, imaging that.
    A tiny Bulgaria, with its tiny army - double the number  Shocked
    They have operated a mix of machine guns delivered from Czechoslovakia, Germany, and half of Europe, still, the worst of them rooting WW1, still equaled or surpassed the best piece Japanese soldier has.
    A Japanese machine gunner could only dream of Madsen ... an obsolete gear of his Bulgarian colleague. Shooting his shitty Type 99.
    Mentioning the tanks is worthless, as the Bulgars operated PzIVs, StgIIIs and Hetzers ...
    There was no worse Axis army than the Bulgarian one ...
    You can't defend this line my buddy.
    We are not talking WHY, but the fact it was just like that.

    kvs wrote:The defeat of the 1 million man strong Kwantung army by Soviet forces did more to stop Japan than all of the US carrier war.  
    The US, being the opportunist turds that they are, dropped nukes on Japan to claim "victory" and to scare the USSR.
    Japan already changed its policy after its defeat at Khalkin Gol in 1939.   Revisionist yanqui history systematically omits
    all of Japan's military losses on the mainland.  It inserts carrier battles and nuclear bombings as the full essence of the
    Pacific war.   The US revisionist propaganda after WWII claims that it won the war against Hitler as well.

    Not only that.
    Manchukuo was called a Japan's "life line" just from the beginning.
    Japan invested waste into the region since the end of 20s.
    Only the iron ore reserves there were calculated at the TRIPLE rate of the whole in German possession.
    Add to that cole aluminum, and last but not least - food products exported to Japan.
    Soviet invasion broke the remaining bone of the Japanese industrial neck.


    Last edited by ALAMO on Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:57 pm

    ALAMO wrote:The answer to your question is very easy.
    All the armies they have faced and you are calling, represented a 30s standard, and that was the very last moment when the Japanese army could match.
    Think for a moment about the impetus of technological progress in the whole 30-40s.
    The thing that used to be perfectly fine in 1935, was totally outdated in 1940.
    A gear that used to be just perfectly modern in the Spanish civil war, was already an archaism in 1939 ...
    Poland used to have one of the most modern air fleet in Europe in the early 30s .
    It lasted modern till the mid of 30s...
    Took 5 years to make a great gear that used to be winning world salons, with waste export potentials, and actually widely exported - totally obsolete.
    The British army in the 30s?  With its overall strength and potential?
    The Dutch colonial army? It can be considered as a stand-up story only. Dutch resistance lasted for a whole 4 days under the Fall Gelb.
    The Chinese? Geared with German stuff they procured from different sources after WWI?
    Who teached the Japanese the suicidal attacks due to lack of any other hope?
    All the Axis allies used to operate the German gear. Bulgaria itself equipped its army with about double the number of submachine guns if compare to Japan, imaging that.
    A tiny Bulgaria, with its tiny army - double the number  Shocked
    They have operated a mix of machine guns delivered from Czechoslovakia, Germany, and half of Europe, still, the worst of them rooting WW1, still equaled or surpassed the best piece Japanese soldier has.
    A Japanese machine gunner could only dream of Madsen ... an obsolete gear of his Bulgarian colleague. Shooting his shitty Type 99.
    Mentioning the tanks is worthless, as the Bulgars operated PzIVs, StgIIIs and Hetzers ...
    There was no worse Axis army than the Bulgarian one ...
    You can't defend this line my buddy.
    We are not talking WHY, but the fact it was just like that.


    If we are talking about what the fact is, the fact is that the Japanese land-conquests by 1942 were 1/3rd larger than Germany's were. Although the Navy and Air Force were crucial to their success, the battles for these territories were won on the ground as well.

    The Japs didn't really have any allies in the continent other than purely local collaborators that fulfilled nothing more complicated than garrison duties - the Manchuko puppet state, the Thais and the Indonesian nationalists.

    And the discombobulation about Pz IVs boils down to basically just that. The Japanese invested in exactly the right places in terms of their military structure and technology. They didn't make their land-army any more advanced than it needed to be to defeat its adversaries, which it did, and it wasn't the land-battles that lost them the war. Their equipment was suited just fine to the terrain and the operations required of them. They weren't on a mission to invade the Soviet Union.
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:02 pm

    Blah blah blah Laughing
    You don't have anything more productive to do rather to declining the facts, in the eve of All Saints ? Very Happy
    Let's have a beer!

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:27 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    If we are talking about what the fact is, the fact is that the Japanese land-conquests by 1942 were 1/3rd larger than Germany's were. Although the Navy and Air Force were crucial to their success, the battles for these territories were won on the ground as well.
    While everybody else was busy with affairs in Europe. And then they lost the equivalent of Western Europe's land area in barely 2 weeks of fighting when the pre-eminent land power found the time to deal with them.

    flamming_python wrote:
    The Japs didn't really have any allies in the continent other than purely local collaborators that fulfilled nothing more complicated than garrison duties - the Manchuko puppet state, the Thais and the Indonesian nationalists.
    Most of their conquests were from possessions guarded by colonial garrison forces and their collaborators. Tripwires for the most part and hardly the creme of European fighting potential. They were expected to get their shit pushed in.

    flamming_python wrote:
    And the discombobulation about Pz IVs boils down to basically just that. The Japanese invested in exactly the right places in terms of their military structure and technology. They didn't make their land-army any more advanced than it needed to be to defeat its adversaries, which it did, and it wasn't the land-battles that lost them the war. Their equipment was suited just fine to the terrain and the operations required of them. They weren't on a mission to invade the Soviet Union.
    Except they didn't. The IJA was so trash even with their full focus on China for four long years they were stale mated and were kept to the coasts and the cities. They failed to knock-out a China that has been severely weakened by civil infighting for so long that the government has been left powerless and literal feudal warlords run the whole place so no concerted organized push to counter them was possible at the onset. This even with all the preponderance in arms and materiel available to them in their campaigns - the Chinese literally had no armor, artillery or airpower, beyond that which is donated by their allies and they even lacked for small arms that entire regiments had to be armed with knives and sharp sticks. Imagine if the Wehrmacht were to fight a Soviet Union fresh from its civil war and only armed with lend-lease ?
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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:48 am

    The Japanese had a huge disparity in numbers with the Chinese. Plus the Chinese interior was poorly equipped with roads.
    It was a counter insurgency where the Chinese had supply routes via Burma and elsewhere. We know how well counter insurgency wars like these usually end up against the attacker.

    It is easy to talk about Japanese tanks being inferior to allied tanks, but in the conditions of the jungles and marshes of Southeast Asia heavier tanks would have limited use, quite likely most tanks couldn't even pass wooden bridges, and heavier weapons would further constrain their logistics. The Japanese did have some infantry weapons which were better than Western ones like their portable mortars for example. In Southeast Asia they proved capable of much faster troop movements than colonial forces by simply putting their infantry riding bicycles and going through narrow forested routes the colonial mechanized forces couldn't traverse. Their equipment was not an insurmountable issue. The Japanese did develop higher caliber tanks like the Chi-Nu in the later war period but they were reserved for the defense of their home islands and were not sent to fight outside there. Also, the Japanese used diesel engines instead of gasoline engines in their tanks having recognized that gasoline was a fire hazard quite early on. So I wouldn't say their tank arm was totally out of touch. It is simply that most steel was allocated to the Navy and even if it wasn't heavy tanks would have limited use for the reasons I mentioned before.
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:00 am

    lancelot wrote:The Japanese had a huge disparity in numbers with the Chinese. Plus the Chinese interior was poorly equipped with roads.
    It was a counter insurgency where the Chinese had supply routes via Burma and elsewhere. We know how well counter insurgency wars like these usually end up against the attacker.
    The Chinese were industrial minnows; they had no way of arming and supplying an army to match the modernized Japanese one. On the other side of the Eurasian continent the Wehrmacht were able to pave their way to Russian heartland which isn't exactly known for its roads either. And counterinsurgencies during this time are easy: just ruthlessly depopulate entire population centers and sack the food production areas. No civvies, no one to support the insurgency and it all withers and dies.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:37 am

    The Japs could not afford any serious gear for land forces and explaining that with the "unnecessary" marker is a way to deny the facts.
    Every single piece of resource was placed to the other branches.
    They lacked even cotton for soldiers' underwear, as it was heavily used for gunpowder bags for the navy.
    That is kinda opposite to the Germans, who relocated the resources from the navy due to the need of Wehrmacht as early as the war has begun.
    They have stopped all the Kriegsmarine production other than submarines, struggling with some pre-war decisions like Graf von Zeppelin carrier peered in Stettin, unoperational till the end of a war.
    So yes, again, Japan was a 3rd rate land force considering from the European perspective, whose tactics, training, and equipment have not changed much since the war with China.
    The European arms race of the 30s, fuelled with several wars on the continent, shaped the face of modern warfare of the 30-40s.
    Ano no, banzai charges and throwing yourself under a tank, with a backpack filled with black powder (!sic!) were not considered the best practice for a while in 1940 Laughing

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:27 pm

    ALAMO wrote:The Japs could not afford any serious gear for land forces and explaining that with the "unnecessary" marker is a way to deny the facts.
    Every single piece of resource was placed to the other branches.
    They lacked even cotton for soldiers' underwear, as it was heavily used for gunpowder bags for the navy.
    That is kinda opposite to the Germans, who relocated the resources from the navy due to the need of Wehrmacht as early as the war has begun.
    They have stopped all the Kriegsmarine production other than submarines, struggling with some pre-war decisions like Graf von Zeppelin carrier peered in Stettin, unoperational till the end of a war.
    So yes, again, Japan was a 3rd rate land force considering from the European perspective, whose tactics, training, and equipment have not changed much since the war with China.
    The European arms race of the 30s, fuelled with several wars on the continent, shaped the face of modern warfare of the 30-40s.
    Ano no, banzai charges and throwing yourself under a tank, with a backpack filled with black powder (!sic!) were not considered the best practice for a while in 1940 Laughing

    You laugh but in Malaysia the Japanese knew their jungle warfare. They traveled along the roads and then when they met British or Australian forces went into the jungles and flanked them. They were accustomed to the terrain from their occupation of Taiwan and Hainan island. The British troops meanwhile just went through some boot-camp in India and didn't even have time to become properly acclimatized to the tropical climate.
    Their tanks were also very effective in the same campaign, although mostly because the Commonwealth ones weren't suitable for jungles - but then that's their problem.
    They had a network of spies in Singapore and were able to conceal or feint their own movements very well. Even when they were at the precipice of Singapore, they crossed onto the island from opposite direction the British expected them to.

    Again I reiterate, the Japanese were equipped and trained just fine for the war that they waged and their record shows this.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:56 pm

    I don't laugh, I just state the obvious fact that you decided to deny.
    That was a 3rd grade army, and discussing that is really not serious.
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    Post  jhelb Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The British troops meanwhile just went through some boot-camp in India and didn't even have time to become properly acclimatized to the tropical climate.
    Why do they need to acclimatize? British troops in Asia were all local asians, only the commanding officer/s were British. That's because the asians were inferior fighters compared to Europeans. Ergo, they suffered much more casualties than predominantly European armies. That's why British/European officers were needed to create a strategy.

    Russians defeated the Nazis and asian communities like hindus will suggest they defeated the Nazis in Europe too. But look at the their casualty rate. During WW-II, in case of Russia for every 1 Russian killed Russia killed 2.5 Nazis. However, for indians it was 3 indians killed for every 1 Nazi that they killed in Europe.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:48 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Russians defeated the Nazis and asian communities like hindus will suggest they defeated the Nazis in Europe too. But look at the their casualty rate. During WW-II, in case of Russia for every 1 Russian killed Russia killed 2.5 Nazis. However, for indians it was 3 indians killed for every 1 Nazi that they killed in Europe.

    And where is this bullshit ratio coming from, other than the fact that you are a racist?
    Soviet military losses calculated formally by the Russian MoD put the casualties at 8.7 million.
    The German side losses were increasing steadily for years, still, the latest materials put it at 5.3 mln, and that number is not conquested at the moment, as came from the latest historical materials provided by the Deutsche Dienststelle after the reunification of Germany.
    Both numbers include killed POWs, which would go up to almost 3.4mln for the Soviet side.

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    Post  kvs Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:24 pm

    The Soviet POW 3.4 million were deliberately exterminated by the Nazis.
    It is claimed that 20% of the German POWs died while in the hands of the Soviets.
    This claim is a BS estimate recycling the same number as claimed for gulag deaths.
    The peak gulag deaths were 20% in 1942 due to severe food supply disruptions.

    So the 5.3 million German losses should be compared to 8.7 - 3 +/- = 5.7 million Soviet
    losses. But that is not even valid since German allies (Romanians, Hungarians, Italians,
    etc.) also need to be included.

    Basically the hyped up Soviet soldier deaths are primarily the result of the initial stages
    of the war via POWs. Hardly a reflection of German superiority.



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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:57 pm

    kvs wrote:The Soviet POW 3.4 million were deliberately exterminated by the Nazis.
    It is claimed that 20% of the German POWs died while in the hands of the Soviets.
    This claim is a BS estimate recycling the same number as claimed for gulag deaths.
    The peak gulag deaths were 20% in 1942 due to severe food supply disruptions.
    So the 5.3 million German losses should be compared to 8.7 - 3 +/- = 5.7 million Soviet
    losses.   But that is not even valid since German allies (Romanians, Hungarians, Italians,
    etc.) also need to be included.
    Basically the hyped up Soviet soldier deaths are primarily the result of the initial stages
    of the war via POWs.   Hardly a reflection of German superiority.

    That is a very true and valid point.
    I used to study the German POW death ratios combined with the overall situation on the ground.
    The most bizarre numbers applied to very specific and severe conditions, for example, the Paulus army POWs that sustained high death ratios.
    The story behind was, that the Soviets took captive a starving army, devastated by the diseases and with generally miserable shape.
    Add to that the fact that in fall of 1942 Soviet Union was on the edge of general collapse, and its economy was shattered to pieces, unable to secure the needs of its own people - and you will face the conclusions that a surprisingly big part of them survived in the harsh conditions of 1943.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:04 am

    I don't laugh, I just state the obvious fact that you decided to deny.
    That was a 3rd grade army, and discussing that is really not serious.

    They were a first rate army in the theatre they chose to operate in... expecting them to be more mechanised and with heavier tanks ignores the environment and terrain they were operating in.

    Heavier tanks don't just happen.... they have to be developed and produced... if they could do that there would be no need for the war for resources that they were fighting.

    Honestly Japan was fine in terms of armour and really only needed Bazooka and Panzerfaust type weapons to combat any enemy with heavy armour.... even today.

    Why do they need to acclimatize? British troops in Asia were all local asians, only the commanding officer/s were British. That's because the asians were inferior fighters compared to Europeans. Ergo, they suffered much more casualties than predominantly European armies. That's why British/European officers were needed to create a strategy.

    Very early in the war many of the troops were locals and most of their losses were because their European officers were idiots and inept. They fell for Japanese tactics time and time again... they gave in to racial stereotypes, like Japanese fighter planes are made of rice paper and therefore cannot operate in the rain...

    Asia was a backwater for the European colonials and did not have their best military minds concentrated here at any part of the war...

    The Europeans rarely even mention the Pacific war... because they didn't have many victories and successes to mention.

    Russians defeated the Nazis and asian communities like hindus will suggest they defeated the Nazis in Europe too. But look at the their casualty rate. During WW-II, in case of Russia for every 1 Russian killed Russia killed 2.5 Nazis. However, for indians it was 3 indians killed for every 1 Nazi that they killed in Europe.

    Hahaha... statistics have nothing to do with this... there were plenty of groups that lost people and did very little no matter which side they happened to be on.

    According to statistics... Switzerland won.

    Basically the hyped up Soviet soldier deaths are primarily the result of the initial stages
    of the war via POWs. Hardly a reflection of German superiority.

    Another factor was that the Germans were animals. There were plenty of women in Soviet Uniform that were executed when captured by the Germans... or raped and then executed.

    Funny that the Soviet troops treated German female civilians better than the German Army treated Soviet women soldiers.

    (Note I am talking about all German soldiers... this is not something only the nazi SS units did... they all did this...)

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    Post  andalusia Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:20 am

    Another factor was that the Germans were animals. There were plenty of women in Soviet Uniform that were executed when captured by the Germans... or raped and then executed.

    Funny that the Soviet troops treated German female civilians better than the German Army treated Soviet women soldiers.

    (Note I am talking about all German soldiers... this is not something only the nazi SS units did... they all did this...)

    [/quote]

    I have always heard here in America that Soviet soldiers mass raped German civilian women in Germany during World War II; What is true?

    http://www.renegadetribune.com/how-german-women-suffered-largest-mass-rape-in-history-by-soviets/?doing_wp_cron=1635834609.0879249572753906250000
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:00 am

    Yes.
    You can find people who will contest that fact, but don't listen to them.
    They are either naive or politically motivated or know shit.
    And no, Germans were not even close to them, with tons of racial regulations and severe punishment applied to soldiers who did. They even had a word for that: Rassenschande.
    Constructed in 1935 and targeting Jews, was still applied to the soldiers in Poland and Soviet Union, not sure for the Balkans. Hardly considered as a factor in Western Europe.
    US troops, on the other hand, used prostitution.
    The starving population of Germany provided hundreds of thousands of women motivated to do anything for social security.
    The question should be put in a different perspective.
    Why did the Soviets behave themself this way?
    Well, I can give you a first-hand story, as my grandmother was raped by a Soviet soldier in Germany, 1945.
    She witnessed that all.
    Firstly, the Soviet Union sustained heavy casualties among its ranks, so by the end of a war, its army used to be quasi-desocialized. As early in the war, Soviet Army was a highly motivated force with waste applied social code and communism ideology that labeled them "a soldier of a people" mark.
    By the end of a war, tons of conscripts were tribal candidates from the middle of nowhere in Siberia, or the Ukrainians, just the same who served in the Einsatzkommndos just a month earlier.
    We can compare that to the other phenomenon: the French colonial army had a terrible reputation, with Algerian, Marokan etc. soldiers raping and raging everywhere where appeared.
    On the other hand, someone who lived a war in Western Europe, or in the US, would have principal problems understanding the real face of that conflict.
    From the Soviet perspective, the question of this war was will they stay alive or to extinct.  
    German atrocities against Slavs can be easily called "a Slavian holocaust", but hey, we don't have that publicity and the place is already taken study
    Soviet Union was devastated, depopulated, with stories about the German rage&behaviour that will be hard to believe very soon, if not preserved.
    As soon as they unconquered its land, and invaded the Reich - the rage was unstoppable.
    They feel a need to punish the entire population, and rape was one of the tools.
    No matter how harsh was the punishment, and no matter how inevitable - you can't stop a guy who is much closer to Gengis Khan rather to Dostoyevsky.
    By the way, the soldier who raped my grandma was executed without any trial.
    She complained to the garrison commander, he only asked if she can recognize the guy. She said yes, so he gathered the squad.
    Grandma recognized and showed the guy, and the Russian officer just took out his TT and shot him straight between the eyes, point blank.

    kvs wrote:But that is not even valid since German allies (Romanians, Hungarians, Italians,
    etc.) also need to be included.

    Hah ...
    Add Finns, Pribalts, Slovaks, Austrians (they are excluded from some materials to prove the thesis), the 120k Vlasov army, the Tatars in Waffen SS numbering 20k+ ... and it turns out that 5.3mln is not the last number we will have here.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:47 pm

    andalusia wrote:Another factor was that the Germans were animals. There were plenty of women in Soviet Uniform that were executed when captured by the Germans... or raped and then executed.

    Funny that the Soviet troops treated German female civilians better than the German Army treated Soviet women soldiers.

    (Note I am talking about all German soldiers... this is not something only the nazi SS units did... they all did this...)


    It is such as pity that the Soviets did not put use up all the filthy krauts in medical experiments and the testing of nuclear/chemical weapons. Just think of the advances they could have made.
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:08 pm

    The rape lie is one of the biggest in history.

    It originates from some BS estimates of the sort we saw in 1999 during the Kosovo war where every female was claimed to have been raped
    (from babies to deathbed grannies) if you took the numbers at face value. But when anyone bothered to investigate the mass rape
    story it evapourated.

    The f*ckwad "historian" Beevor is one of the main promulgators of this blood libel lie. He and the rest of the professional Russia haters
    actually take the word of Nazi doctors at face value. The same doctors that were sending people off to the death camps. The number
    claimed is 2 million rapes. Now suppose, ultra conservatively, that 10% resulted in pregnancies. Where are the 200,000 offspring or were
    they all aborted. Are these 200,000 abortions a crime? Also, why were there no murders? Rape and then murder go together since they
    are both orgasms for the perps.

    There is zero substantiation of the 2 million alleged rape victims since there is no list of names and addresses. If there was, one would
    think that there would have been a legal process set up by Germany.

    The west always projects fantasy hate onto Russians. Russians are untermenschen who behave like wild animals. You can see this
    in the endless fake atrocities presented in video games, anime, and the general information bubble of the west. This is nothing more
    than guilt transfer. It was the Nazi horde that was truly engaged in savagery as it rolled east and on the way way back during its
    retreat. This is why 18 million Soviet civilians died during WWII. Western f*cks would have everyone believe that they were killed
    by the Red Army.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:12 pm

    Are you even sane&sauber? scratch
    Rape and murder is a tool of war and used to be ones for ages.
    There were mass rapes at any side of the conflict, we can only discuss the scale and reasons behind it.
    Codification of it is just another example of social changes we faced in the last age or so, because anyone would hardly discuss the matter in XIX century.
    The Napoleon army was a rapist army, just the same way as the Brits behaved, including raping&robbing the nominal allies in Spain.
    There were rapes in the 1871 war, in the US civil war, and at ANY war.
    No one really cared about that, it used to be a normal thing.
    Either run, or spread your legs.
    Only WWI provided a slight difference to that, because it used to be a very stagnant one, and the civilian population was able to run away. Plus a lots of social changes were already happening in the background.
    The Soviet general staff put attention to that matter, so you can guess if they did that because the issue was non-existent.
    Denying the rapes there is just the same stupid, as denying organized brothels existing for the Japanese army, and the Germans.
    Or discussing the fact, that after the war, whole western occupied zones turned to be a big brothel, where sex was a currency to feed yourself.
    And If I were you, I would not even touch the abortion issue, because it will kick you back like a mule.
    First of all, I will remind you that abortion itself was a legal mean of birth control in the 3rd Reich.
    Arian laws actually encouraged the non-Arian population for it, and combined with the eugenics, any German woman could have a legal abortion due to "fetus deformation".
    It was not a big deal at all well into a war, only in 1944 or so, some codification changes were applied to "protect the Arians".
    But people give a shit about that.
    Now comes the interesting part of the story.
    As soon as the war ended, both parts of divided Germany implemented a different means.
    The western zone returned to the pre-Nazi code, that restricted abortion in full.
    On the other hand, the Eastern Germany didn't care of that at all till the 50s, and then took a Soviet way. Abortion was perfectly legal in the Soviet Union.
    The estimates for abortion rates for after-war Germany are considered as high as 2 mln A YEAR.
    Seriously.
    The "funny" part of that is, that the western propaganda is trying to put all of that to the Soviet occupation zone, and that is pure bullshit.
    Those were the German women from West Germany, that were forced to move to the Netherlands to have a legal procedure there, not the Eastern ones.
    The number is made by the economic misery, lack of social security, lack of home&safety, and - of course - last but not least, the rapes issue.
    But not only that, prostitutes used to get pregnant, too.
    I saw a materials suggesting that up to 400 000 German women participated in organized prostitution, so you can wonder the results.

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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:10 pm

    Of course rape happened. Happened on every side to everyone. War gave impetuous to some of the worst people to commit some of the worst crimes. Still does. But claims can be easily overblown.
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:21 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Are you even sane&sauber? scratch
    Rape and murder is a tool of war and used to be ones for ages.
    There were mass rapes at any side of the conflict, we can only discuss the scale and reasons behind it.
    Codification of it is just another example of social changes we faced in the last age or so, because anyone would hardly discuss the matter in XIX century.
    The Napoleon army was a rapist army, just the same way as the Brits behaved, including raping&robbing the nominal allies in Spain.
    There were rapes in the 1871 war, in the US civil war, and at ANY war.
    No one really cared about that, it used to be a normal thing.
    Either run, or spread your legs.
    Only WWI provided a slight difference to that, because it used to be a very stagnant one, and the civilian population was able to run away. Plus a lots of social changes were already happening in the background.
    The Soviet general staff put attention to that matter, so you can guess if they did that because the issue was non-existent.
    Denying the rapes there is just the same stupid, as denying organized brothels existing for the Japanese army, and the Germans.
    Or discussing the fact, that after the war, whole western occupied zones turned to be a big brothel, where sex was a currency to feed yourself.
    And If I were you, I would not even touch the abortion issue, because it will kick you back like a mule.
    First of all, I will remind you that abortion itself was a legal mean of birth control in the 3rd Reich.
    Arian laws actually encouraged the non-Arian population for it, and combined with the eugenics, any German woman could have a legal abortion due to "fetus deformation".
    It was not a big deal at all well into a war, only in 1944 or so, some codification changes were applied to "protect the Arians".
    But people give a shit about that.
    Now comes the interesting part of the story.
    As soon as the war ended, both parts of divided Germany implemented a different means.
    The western zone returned to the pre-Nazi code, that restricted abortion in full.
    On the other hand, the Eastern Germany didn't care of that at all till the 50s, and then took a Soviet way. Abortion was perfectly legal in the Soviet Union.
    The estimates for abortion rates for after-war Germany are considered as high as 2 mln A YEAR.
    Seriously.
    The "funny" part of that is, that the western propaganda is trying to put all of that to the Soviet occupation zone, and that is pure bullshit.
    Those were the German women from West Germany, that were forced to move to the Netherlands to have a legal procedure there, not the Eastern ones.
    The number is made by the economic misery, lack of social security, lack of home&safety, and - of course - last but not least, the rapes issue.
    But not only that, prostitutes used to get pregnant, too.
    I saw a materials suggesting that up to 400 000 German women participated in organized prostitution, so you can wonder the results.


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