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    Tu-22M3: News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2020 5:07 am

    I think increasing the size of the weapon bays of the Tu-160M2 to make them a couple of metres longer... say 13-14 metres would allow existing 6m long weapons to be carried in tandem, which would greatly improve capability with only a minor modification.

    More importantly instead of making an 11m large missile to better use the available space in the weapon bays, they could make it a 12m or 13m long missile and get even better performance potential.

    Whether they choose to do that or not, they should develop full sized missiles and half sized missiles and perhaps even 1/3rd sized missiles to allow flexibility in arming them.

    Wasn't one of the changes to the Tu-22M3M design an extension of the internal weapon bay?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 am

    Actually looking at this graphic:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 09763610

    ... Is that talking about a 4.78 metre long cruise missile with a high subsonic flight speed and a launch range between 4,500 and 9,000km... Product 715?

    The length of 4.78m is the same as the Kh-15 so it will fit inside the Tu-22M3 and also inside the Bear and the Blackjack... 6 inside the Bear and 24 inside the Blackjack...

    The thing I am wondering is why they would have a Kh-50 when they are working on the Product 715 because the Product 715 would be ideal for the Tu-160 and the Tu-22M3 and the Bear... in fact at 4.78m they might even be able to fit two in tandem on a Bear weapon pylon so even if they kept the four external pylons per wing instead of five external pylons, with the shorter missile they could carry 16 missiles on the 8 external weapon pylons and a further 6 missiles internally.

    Experience has shown that targets require a lot of missiles to assure penetrating air defences and short small missiles would make sense as a numbers missile...

    You could start an attack with a mixed flight of Bears and Backfires with Zircon or other hypersonic missiles launched with much larger numbers of subsonic missiles... the hypersonic missiles can target radar and SAM sites and main targets and then hours later the subsonic missiles will arrive and hammer everything else...
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    Post  dino00 on Mon May 18, 2020 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually looking at this graphic:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 09763610

    ... Is that talking about a 4.78 metre long cruise missile with a high subsonic flight speed and a launch range between 4,500 and 9,000km... Product 715?

    The length of 4.78m is the same as the Kh-15 so it will fit inside the Tu-22M3 and also inside the Bear and the Blackjack... 6 inside the Bear and 24 inside the Blackjack...

    The thing I am wondering is why they would have a Kh-50 when they are working on the Product 715 because the Product 715 would be ideal for the Tu-160 and the Tu-22M3 and the Bear... in fact at 4.78m they might even be able to fit two in tandem on a Bear weapon pylon so even if they kept the four external pylons per wing instead of five external pylons, with the shorter missile they could carry 16 missiles on the 8 external weapon pylons and a further 6 missiles internally.

    Experience has shown that targets require a lot of missiles to assure penetrating air defences and short small missiles would make sense as a numbers missile...

    You could start an attack with a mixed flight of Bears and Backfires with Zircon or other hypersonic missiles launched with much larger numbers of subsonic missiles... the hypersonic missiles can target radar and SAM sites and main targets and then hours later the subsonic missiles will arrive and hammer everything else...

    Product 715 is the KH-50 missile. That graphic is wrong, they put the size of kh-15 on kh-50, I think this was discussed earlier, the launch range of 4500km /9000km is also a mistake.
    What I find strange is kh-50 with only less 1.4 my and slightly thinner would loose 3000km in range compared with kh-101 Suspect  and kh-50 will have an improved engine...
    See this link
    https://iz.ru/663570/aleksei-ramm/ubiitcam-avianostcev-popolniat-arsenal
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 20, 2020 12:04 am

    Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.
    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.

    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 20, 2020 12:32 am

    Treaties work only in peace time. They can easily switch for a nuclear armed missiles if the same missile is used with conventionnal warhead and if that same missile is used on tu-160/pak da as a nuclear weapon.

    That should be the case for any new missile. Cold war era bombers were designed to use few type of missiles each. New bombers thanks to modern computers can use any new missile.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed May 20, 2020 1:08 am

    dino00 wrote:Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.
    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.

    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...

    That's assuming there will be a new Start Treaty, but the Pentagram is now making impossible demands. They've demanded China join, Russia stop all development of strategic prospective programs (Storm Petrel, Avantegard, Poseidon, etc.) The only reason why the last Start treaty got passed was because it was under the guise of a fake 'reset', which imploded within a year. The treaty before collapsed because of the U.S. side's insistence to pursue cruise missile capable Aegis Ashore, on land, a clear cut violation of the INF Treaty. The Pentagram has even hinted at restarting nuclear testing, and using thermonuclear bombs in theaters like a potential war with Iran. The US side is already negotiating in bad faith, so it's extremely naive to assume the treaty is continuing under this terrible climate.
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    Post  mnztr on Wed May 20, 2020 2:41 am

    Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time
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    Post  kvs on Wed May 20, 2020 3:23 am

    mnztr wrote:Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    I agree. The NATzO west has blown its wad with anti-Russian hate propaganda. There is nothing restraining Russia since whatever it does
    it will be blood libeled.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 am

    kvs wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    I agree.   The NATzO west has blown its wad with anti-Russian hate propaganda.   There is nothing restraining Russia since whatever it does
    it will be blood libeled.


    Agreed. There needs to be a more tougher approach from Russia.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2020 2:02 pm

    Product 715 is the KH-50 missile. That graphic is wrong, they put the size of kh-15 on kh-50, I think this was discussed earlier, the launch range of 4500km /9000km is also a mistake.

    Yes, of course the flight range is wrong, but to fit inside the Tu-22M3 it would need to be a similar size to the Kh-15 and such a physical size would also be useful for other aircraft to carry the weapon in numbers.... this is supposed to be the high numbers low cost cruise missile that is basically carried by everything... a JDDAM or whatever equivalent...

    What I find strange is kh-50 with only less 1.4 my and slightly thinner would loose 3000km in range compared with kh-101 Suspect and kh-50 will have an improved engine...

    If it is 6m long... if it is 4.78m long then it loses 2.6m... it is only supposed to reach 1,500-2,500km or so anyway...

    Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.

    The only START treaty that currently means anything is the new START and it expires in about 7-8 months time (Feb 2021).

    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.
    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...

    You mean like the US said AEGIS ashore uses the standard Mk41 launcher that can be fitted with Tomahawk cruise missiles.... they said it just wouldn't load them...

    Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    Well the thing is that right now outside the west Russia actually has a big of respect and can be seen to do the right thing when others around them are revealing their weaknesses.

    The Backfire is a theatre weapon... whether it can reach strategic targets or not is not the point... the M3M seems to have inflight refuelling reinstalled... but not to make it a strategic bomber, but to give it better performance in the theatre mission it is being used for... so it wont need to stop off in Iran for refuelling for instance when dropping bombs on terrorists in Syria.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 20, 2020 8:50 pm

    GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed May 20, 2020 9:32 pm

    dino00 wrote:GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?

    Only Partially.

    KH-59MK2 has been purposely conceived to be contained in the internal weapon bays of Су-57 and therefore has some obvious unavoidable limitations for what attain the range requirements that the MoD put for new substrategic weapons.

    KH-59MK2 will surely, and significantly, outrange anything an F-35 can carry in its internal weapon bays for theatre operations, but at the substrategic level it will concede to the externally mounted JASSM-ER.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 20, 2020 9:52 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    dino00 wrote:GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?

    Only Partially.

    KH-59MK2 has been purposely conceived to be contained in the internal weapon bays of Су-57 and therefore has some obvious unavoidable limitations for what attain the range requirements that the MoD put for new substrategic weapons.

    KH-59MK2 will surely, and significantly, outrange anything an F-35 can carry in its internal weapon bays for theatre operations, but at the substrategic level it will concede to the externally mounted JASSM-ER.

    Surprised by the bold part of your answer, Jassm-er has more diameter so more fuel...makes sense.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 21, 2020 6:27 am

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Well can I turn that around and say if it is 6 metres long then why bother when the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 are 6 metres long and have flight ranges of 3,000km already.

    What they don't have is a smaller shorter ranged weapon that can be carried in larger numbers than existing Kh-55 and Kh-555 missiles.

    The Kh-59MK2 is a 500km range weapon... this weapon is supposed to have at least three or four times that range at about 1,500km or 2,000km...

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.

    Well they are not achieving that goal if it is 6m long and has less range than existing cruise missile types that size.

    By making it 4.78m long they can get them in to the Backfires internal weapon bay, and the Bears internal weapon bay (that can take 6m missiles but not 7.4m missiles) and two in each position on the rotary launcher of a Blackjack (total 24 missiles if necessary).

    If they make it 6m long like the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 then it wont fit internally on the Backfire and will fit in the Bear, but why would you carry it on the Blackjack because you are trading one for one with missiles with much better range in the form of the Kh-101/2. Why swap a single 6m long Kh-50 with 1,500km range with a single 7.4m long conventional Kh-101 that can reach 4,500km or 5,000km in the kh-102 nuke model?

    What they really need to do is make models to fit the launchers or change the launchers... make all the internal launchers slightly longer so the Bear can take 7.4m long missiles internally, and the Backfire can take 6m long missiles internally and the Blackjack so it can take two 6m long missiles internally and make the replacement for the Kh-101/2 into a 12m long missile to fill up the space properly.

    Or they can make the small "tactical" cruise missile a 4.78m long weapon that has a double warhead on the Backfire version with a range of 600km, and a Blackjack version with a range of maybe 2,000km... so it could carry 12 Gzur missiles in one bay and 12 Kh-50 in the other... or 6 of each in one (total 12 missiles) and 6 long range missiles in the other bay for 18 missiles total.

    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    The Gzur could be a Kickback replacement... if it is 6m long then if the Kh-50 is 4.8m long then perhaps they could be paired in one bomb bay.... 6 Gzur missiles and 6 Kh-50s with the other weapon bay carrying 6 x 7.4m Kh-102s.
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    Post  dino00 on Thu May 21, 2020 11:12 am

    Well can I turn that around and say if it is 6 metres long then why bother when the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 are 6 metres long and have flight ranges of 3,000km already. wrote:

    I knew you could do that Very Happy that's why I said built from scratch, KH-50 has a flattened profile, KH-55SM doesn't, I think that even if they are the same length TU-22M3M couldn't launch kh-55SM, obviously KH-50 has a stealth profile that KH -55SM doesn't have, and in subsonic cruise missiles that's important.

    The[b] Kh-59MK2 is a 500km range weapon[/b]... this weapon is supposed to have at least three or four times that range at about 1,500km or 2,000km... wrote:

    I really really doubt that...the export version has a range of 290 km...from Tass: Russia to develop cruise missiles capable of striking targets at 1,000km range
    The missiles will be developed before 2020


    Work is under way on a new family of items with a range of 200km, 400km, 600km and 1,000km. That is why, work in this area is being carried out. I believe that before 2020 we’ll surely roll out this family of items [missiles]," Obnosov said at the MAKS-2017 airshow, responding to a question about whether Russia was developing the analog of the US JASSM high precision long-range cruise missile.

    https://tass.com/defense/957105

    I think KH-59MK2 is the 1000km range, Mindstorm said that the former concedes to JASSM-ER, that's probably, But Jassm-er has a lot more than over 925km.

    Well they are not achieving that goal if it is 6m long and has less range than existing cruise missile types that size. wrote:

    But I don't think it has, the stealth shape will reduce the range, the diameter looks small than KH-101, it all depends on the weight of the warhead, but I won't be surprised if it has more than 3000km range with a conventional warhead.
    A new Russian air-launched cruise missile 6 mt long, a completely new design engine, build with different materials that the Kh-55 family, the best solid fuel available, and it has 1500km range lol1

    If they make it 6m long like the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 then it wont fit internally on the Backfire and will fit in the Bear wrote:

    It will, KH-50 and GZUR were built especially for the Backfire.

    but why would you carry it on the Blackjack because you are trading one for one with missiles with much better range in the form of the Kh-101/2. Why swap a single 6m long Kh-50 with 1,500km range with a single 7.4m long conventional Kh-101 that can reach 4,500km or 5,000km in the kh-102 nuke model? wrote:

    Agree 100% if you remember I made this question with other words.

    The Gzur could be a Kickback replacement wrote:

    Now we are talking attack and what a great replacement! They could have 6 GZUR and 6 Kh-101/2.










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    Post  dino00 on Thu May 21, 2020 11:24 am

    All the quotes above are from GarryB, I can't edit without the quotes disappearing, anyway there's some time I don't speak about KH-MT Very Happy I'm the only one, looks like a monologue lol1 just this though I will shut up with Kh-MT, if it isn't Gzur it could be a longer KH-58UShKE.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 22, 2020 1:23 pm

    KEPD 350 Taurus, Storm Shadow,SCALP, Delilah, SOM cruise missile etc. A lot of precise equipment with a range of several hundred kilometers.

    Russia has air defence missiles with effective ranges of 400km at the moment, and soon 600km with the S-500, therefore in terms of stand off range you would need the weapons to have standoff ranges of these distances at the minimum to reach the actual targets and not just penetrate the borders of Russian airspace...

    Russian equivalents really don't have similar problems...

    I knew you could do that Very Happy that's why I said built from scratch, KH-50 has a flattened profile, KH-55SM doesn't, I think that even if they are the same length TU-22M3M couldn't launch kh-55SM, obviously KH-50 has a stealth profile that KH -55SM doesn't have, and in subsonic cruise missiles that's important.

    The Kh-50 is not supposed to be a strategic cruise missile.... it is not supposed to be carried on strategic missions... it is supposed to be the sort of missile they would fire at Syria or other similar conventional attacks from aircraft like the Backfire, but also the Blackjack and Bear on such non strategic missions.

    The Kh-59MKK2 was not really designed from scratch... it just has a reprofiled shell for internal carriage... they could easily do that with the Kh-555 if all they wanted was a stealthy weapon.

    I really really doubt that...the export version has a range of 290 km...from Tass: Russia to develop cruise missiles capable of striking targets at 1,000km range
    The missiles will be developed before 2020

    Have you not followed the family history of the weapon?

    The original Kh-59 was a rocket powered weapon with a 150kg warhead and a range of about 40km and an all up weight of about 750kgs.

    It had inertial flight to the target area and then TV command guidance for terminal attack.

    This was replaced by the upgraded Kh-59M which added a complicated propulsion system... instead of a solid rocket booster and a rocket sustainer, it has a solid rocket booster to rapidly accelerate the missile to out in front of the aircraft so it can be captured by the guidance pod and then a turbojet engine sustainer starts up and powers it to 115km range... limited by the range of the datalink... the warhead is doubled but the all up weight of the weapon goes up to about 930kgs.

    The Kh-59MK has the MMW radar seeker of the Kh-35 fitted and is an anti ship missile and because it does not use a datalink its flight range is not restricted to 115km. Its range of course is restricted by the size of the target... a small boat it has a range of about 145km, while a large boat (5,000 sq metres) it has a range of about 285km. The Kh-59MK doesn't need the solid rocket booster to launch it rapidly ahead of the aircraft to gather with a datalink pod so the solid rocket booster is replaced with more fuel for the turbofan engine extending the range.

    The point is that the Kh-59MK has a body diameter of about 38cm, while the Kh-59MKK2 is a square 40cm by 40cm... so there is more room for fuel.

    I think KH-59MK2 is the 1000km range, Mindstorm said that the former concedes to JASSM-ER, that's probably, But Jassm-er has a lot more than over 925km.

    But the Kh-59MKK2 is wider than the older models it is also shorter... it is only 4.2m long while the Kh-59MK is about 5.6m long, so I would think even guessing at a range of 500km for the Kh-59MKK2 is already being rather generous.

    I would suspect if they have a family of weapons with ranges of 200km 400km, 600km, and 1,000km, that they will likely be either a scaled group of missiles... all the same but of different sizes and weights of fuel, or perhaps a single size that has a different mix of warhead and fuel weight, so the 200km missile might be with a 1 ton warhead and the rest fuel, while the 400km range missile might have a 750kg warhead and the rest fuel, while the 600km range missile might have a 400kg warhead, and the 1,000km range missile might have a 200kg warhead perhaps... or they might all have scaled weights and sizes so the 1,000km range weapon might be carried by Blackjacks and Bears and possibly the Su-34, while the Tu-22M3 might carry the 600km range models, and the Su-35 and MiG-35 and Su-57 might carry the 200km and 400km models....

    But I don't think it has, the stealth shape will reduce the range, the diameter looks small than KH-101, it all depends on the weight of the warhead, but I won't be surprised if it has more than 3000km range with a conventional warhead.

    A stealthy shape is generally very low drag with all its sharp angles so I really don't think it would reduce range on its own. Nuclear warheads are much more compact and lighter than conventional warheads... HE is not very dense so to carry 200kgs means it takes up a lot of space. The Kh-101 conventional missile is supposed to have a 400kg warhead and 4,500km range, while the Kh-102 with a nuclear warhead will have a range of 5,000km or more depending on the flight profile... A strategic missile can often fly at medium to high altitude without using high throttle settings for hours to greatly extending flight range...

    A new Russian air-launched cruise missile 6 mt long, a completely new design engine, build with different materials that the Kh-55 family, the best solid fuel available, and it has 1500km range

    If it is subsonic then high energy fuel does not help unless you can get it to super cruise at supersonic speed... the Kh-55SM used large saddle fuel tanks to get a flight range of 3,000km, and the motor it used wasn't a bad motor... You add range by adding fuel, which adds weight... you can't double a fighter jets flight range by adding external fuel tanks.... the extra weight and drag means the extra fuel doens't directly add to flight range... the extra fuel reduces fuel efficiency and increases drag and reduces thrust to weight ratio and slows you down.

    The easiest solution is to make the missile longer which allows a serious increase in weight without a huge increase in drag because you have the same cross section. Larger heavier missiles need bigger wings which means higher drag too...


    It will, KH-50 and GZUR were built especially for the Backfire.

    Well it would make more sense to make them short enough to be carried internally on the Backfire... so either make the missiles less than 5m long or make the Backfire internal weapon bay able to take 6m long missiles.

    I can see the shitstorm from the US now because an enlarged internal weapon bay makes it a strategic bomber, so making the missiles smaller I think makes much more sense all round.


    Now we are talking attack and what a great replacement! They could have 6 GZUR and 6 Kh-101/2.

    But Gzur uses a ramjet so it does not need to be 6m long to travel 1,500km to its target... it will be moving at mach 6... which is about 1.9km/s... that means it will be covering 1,500km in about 781 seconds or about 13 minutes... in comparison at subsonic speeds flying that distance would take 4687 seconds or one and a half hours... now for a missile intended to clear the way ahead of a strategic bomber having your clearing away missile move at a speed very close to the speed of your bomber makes very little sense. It is likely easier to fit fuel to run a ramjet for 13 minutes into a 4.8m long missile than to fit the fuel to run a turbojet for an hour an a half in a 6m long missile.

    If Gzur is 4.78m long you can have the same loadout as with Kh-15 on both the Backfire and Blackjack... the Backfire could carry 10 (four externally and 6 internally) and the Blackjack could carry 24 though normally it would carry 12 Kickbacks and 6 long range cruise missiles.

    If the 1,000km range weapon in that new family is 6m long then the Blackjack could carry 6 in each weapon bay (total 12 weapons) plus 6 x 4.8m Gzur self defence missiles in each weapon bay too... which means 12 precision land attack 1,000km range missiles and 12 x 1,500km range ramjet powered self defence missiles...  of course by default Gzur would be nuclear armed like the Kickback missile so perhaps 12 x 1,000km range weapons plus 12 Kh-50s if they were 4.8m long for a totally conventional load out of precision guided cheap weapons.
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    Post  dino00 on Fri May 22, 2020 3:11 pm

    GarryB I will answer your post without quotes...

    I think we will have to agree to disagree Very Happy  

    I sincerely don't understand why you doubt even the 500km range of the KH-59MK2, look at the improvement of the KH-59MK2 export version from the MAKS-2015 vs the missile with the same name http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/kh-59mk2/ obviously the improvement was not using more fuel, but the materials used in the new missile, the new engine, and probably better solid fuel, they made all this effort to export.
    If the KH-59MK2 for SU-57 has only 500km range, or even less, they are giving away advanced technology...for me try aren't.

    The KH-55 family is obsolete, their improvements were "only" from different engines and conformal tanks(more and/or better fuel) KH-101 with only more 1.45 mt achieved more 50% range... better composite materials, aerodynamic, engine, fuel.

    I disagree with more things that you said, but the possibility of the different ranges of the new missiles being from different warhead sizes is a good point that I didn't thought...I think the 200km range missile could be the small kh-35 missile that we saw a few months ago, just a guess.
    I think KH-102 has a lot more than 5000km range. It could have the double of the KH-101, in my opinion.

    GarryB do you have any source that the weapons bay of the TU-22M3M aren't 6+ mt long?

    If they had made GZUR and kh-50 4.78 mt long for me that would be a big mistake, they would have a bad missiles for TU-22M3M ( compared with what they could achieve if it is 6 mt long) and a not so important missiles for a platform (TU-160) that they only had 16, and is the more important air force strategic plane.

    The question is the 2 missiles above were developed with TU-22M3M or Tu-160 in mind?
    Their development begun before the decision to produce more Blackjacks.
    If they want 24 subsonic cruise missiles to be launched from inside the Tu-160 they have the kh-59mk2, if they want the same number but supersonic they have KH-58USHKE, if they want the same number but Hypersonic they have the missile from the SU-57, all with ~4.2mt, they probably just need to adapt, or develop a new revolver.
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    Post  Hole on Fri May 22, 2020 4:52 pm

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 001216
    Weapons bay of a Tu-22M3 with Kh-15. Not much room left.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 23, 2020 4:47 am

    I sincerely don't understand why you doubt even the 500km range of the KH-59MK2, look at the improvement of the KH-59MK2 export version from the MAKS-2015 vs the missile with the same name http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/kh-59mk2/ obviously the improvement was not using more fuel, but the materials used in the new missile, the new engine, and probably better solid fuel, they made all this effort to export.

    The solid fuel is irrelevant... on the first few models that used it it was only used to fly the missile out to 1km ahead of the launch platform quickly so it could be gathered by the datalink pod so communication could be established... it would only burn for a few seconds and didn't accelerate the missile faster than high subsonic speed.

    The limits on the early models was datalink range, while the later models added extra fuel in the place of the solid rocket booster to reach almost 300km range... the export model wasn't allowed to reach further than that anyway so any extra potential would be used up making the warhead bigger most likely.

    The point is that the domestic model has a range of about 550km... which I have no huge problem believing... but suddenly turning that into 1,000km plus range is not likely... the turbofan engine used was rather fuel efficient already, and even if you replaced the entire missile with composite material that weighed nothing you still wouldn't increase range by that much...

    If the KH-59MK2 for SU-57 has only 500km range, or even less, they are giving away advanced technology...for me try aren't.

    The Kh-59MK2 is smaller and lighter than previous missiles that had ranges of just over half its reported range... the export model of the Kh-59MK2 is described as being a 290km range missile... which makes sense because export limits its range to 300km max anyway, but with a 310kg warhead and a total weight of 770kg and a length of 4.2m it is actually smaller and similar in weight to the AS-13 or Kh-59 which has a 147kg warhead, a 40km range, and weighs 760kgs and is about 5.4m long.

    I appreciate its range is not limited by its potential, but by international export agreement, but 550km sounds a reasonable distance for a weapon to carry on their new stealth fighter... at 4.2m it could also be carried internally by the Backfire which has a 5m weapon bay for weapons up to about 4.8m long like the Kickback.

    I don't think they could do anything to magically make such a weapon reach 1,000km...

    Remember these are subsonic cruise missiles and the altitude they operate at is going to effect their flight range and speed too... the Kh-59MK2 can operate at altitudes from 200m to 11,000m over land... it flys at 10-15m over water till it gets close to its target and then descends to 4-7m depending on the sea state.

    At low altitude its flight speed will be about 700km/h and range will probably be 250-300km, while at 11,000m altitude  it will fly at 1,000km/h and reach full range of 550km or so.

    The KH-55 family is obsolete, their improvements were "only" from different engines and conformal tanks(more and/or better fuel) KH-101 with only more 1.45 mt achieved more 50% range... better composite materials, aerodynamic, engine, fuel.

    First of all the Kh-55 and family is no where near obsolete. Second the Kh-101 is longer, but it is also a ton heavier... the standard Kh-55 is a 1,210kg missile with a flight range of 2,500km... the Kh-55SM with saddle tanks is heavier at 1,500kg and wider because of the external conformal tanks and with the extra weight basically being extra fuel its range is 3,000km.

    The Kh-101 is longer and as wide as the Kh-55SM with its external tanks and weighs one ton more than the heavier Kh-55SM and that extra ton is basically extra fuel... which gives it better range. The Kh-102 is about 200kgs lighter because the nuclear warhead is about 200kgs lighter than the conventional HE warhead of the Kh-101, but because it has the same fuel weight it gets a longer flight range of about 5,000km instead of the Kh-101s 4,500km flight range.

    All down to increased fuel weight and extra length meaning less drag in flight.

    I think KH-102 has a lot more than 5000km range. It could have the double of the KH-101, in my opinion.

    If they flew at 12km altitude all the way to the target at a low thrust setting to improve fuel consumption they might both fly much further, but for their roles they need to fly faster and they need to follow way points to take them around danger areas... they might need to drop down to 20m altitude and fly through mountain passes to get to their targets in secret... all of which will effect range and performance.

    GarryB do you have any source that the weapons bay of the TU-22M3M aren't 6+ mt long?

    Information about the Tu-22M3M is vague... they did mention extending the weapon bay but no hard details...

    If they had made GZUR and kh-50 4.78 mt long for me that would be a big mistake, they would have a bad missiles for TU-22M3M ( compared with what they could achieve if it is 6 mt long) and a not so important missiles for a platform (TU-160) that they only had 16, and is the more important air force strategic plane.

    Actually being 6m long missiles means having 6 weapons in each weapon bay on the Blackjack... a 6 metre missile sitting on a rotary launcher 11.35m long... if they had another 4.78m missile they could load that on there too in tandem but the only missiles I have read about that is that length or less in that category is the Kh-59MK2 and the Kh-15 which has been withdrawn from service.

    By making them shorter they can be deployed in much greater numbers by a much wider variety of aircraft... mounting a 4.8m long missile on an Su-34 or Su-35 or even a MiG-35 would be easier than mounting a 6m long missile... and having say 65 Tu-160M2s in service eventually means a potential for 1,560 Gzur near hypersonic 1,500km range land attack missiles, with another 10 per Backfire you are operating. At 6m long those 65 Blackjacks could only carry 780.

    Making them smaller makes them more flexible and increases the number that can be carried.

    It is like Granit vs Zircon.... Granit is a 7.5 ton enormous missile only carried on Oscar and Oscar II class subs, Kirov class cruisers and the Kuznetsov CV. Zircon  is about 5 times faster, with more than double its range and 1/3rd its weight and can be carried by any Russian ship fitted with a UKSK launcher which includes corvettes and subs.

    As for reduced performance... the Gzur is replacing an already withdrawn rocket powered missile with a speed of mach 5 and a range of about 250km. A shortened Gzur should be able to match the mach 6 speed and might perhaps reach 1,000km instead of 1,500km which is fine... put a slightly smaller nuke warhead in it...

    For the Product 715 it is supposed to be a short range tactical cruise missile with a range of at most 2,000km... having a range of 1,500km is not a big problem.

    Being able to be carried internally on the Tu-22M3 greatly improves the flight performance of that aircraft by reducing drag.

    The question is the 2 missiles above were developed with TU-22M3M or Tu-160 in mind?
    Their development begun before the decision to produce more Blackjacks.

    The two missiles are for two specific and different jobs... GZUR is a short range attack missile to help a strategic bomber penetrate enemy air defences... so the Blackjack would use it but likely not all of them... perhaps one in a flight would have one internal bay with 12 missiles and the rest would have long range cruise missiles. The Backfire would use the Kickback and therefore also the Gzur to penetrate hostile enemy airspace protected by air defence systems like Patriot and THAAD and AEGIS Ashore, but they would also use it like Kinzhal.... ie against ships which have their own IADS. GZUR II will be a mach 12 missile with strategic features and will likely be carried in the Blackjacks internal weapon bays... 6 per bay....

    The Kh-50, sometimes called Product 715 and occasionally called Kh-SD is a reduced size reduced range stealthy cruise missiles for theatre operations for a similar role to JASSM-ER, and as such could be carried by the Backfire or the Blackjack or Bear or PAK DA.

    In fact if the Kh-50 and Gzur are both less than 5m long then you could carry them in tandem in a Blackjacks bay... 12 air defence targets is a lot for a penetration, but also having them all in the same plane is a risk... perhaps having every plane in each flight with four Gzur missiles and the other 8 missiles on that rotary launcher could be 1,500km range cruise missiles... so the loadout for the Blackjack would be 4 x Gzur, 8 x Kh-50, and 6 x Kh-102... so they can penetrate air defences... which could include AEGIS cruisers in the Arctic ocean for instance... A loadout for an attack on Europe could be 4 Gzur and all the rest Kh-50... ie 4 x Gzur and 20 x Kh-50...

    They could step it up... a subsonic cruise missile is a tricky little bugger... but imagine replacing the turbofan with a ramjet and making it a supercruising mach 1.8 target that does not have an AB and therefore uses dry thrust, so you get long range and a missile that an F-35 can't chase down...

    If they want 24 subsonic cruise missiles to be launched from inside the Tu-160 they have the kh-59mk2, if they want the same number but supersonic they have KH-58USHKE, if they want the same number but Hypersonic they have the missile from the SU-57, all with ~4.2mt, they probably just need to adapt, or develop a new revolver.

    Kh-59MK2 has a range of 550km... not really enough. The Kh-58 has half that range...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 23, 2020 6:24 am

    Tu-22M3 bomber will receive another hypersonic missile?
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2955599.html
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    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 Empty Gzur, Kinzhal, and Kh-32 are the missiles we are discussing here and are in that article.

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 23, 2020 11:51 am

    Gzur, Kinzhal, and Kh-32 are the missiles we are discussing here and are in that article.
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    Post  dino00 on Sat May 23, 2020 8:59 pm

    You are killing me Garry lol1 I hope you are not doing on purpose lol1

    GarryB Kh-59MK2 has a range of 550km... not really enough. The Kh-58 has half that range... wrote:

    If the kh-58 you are talking about is this http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/kh-58ushke/. You are saying that the Russian version only has more 30 km range...


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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 24, 2020 1:13 am

    GarryB wrote:Kh-59MK2 has a range of 550km... not really enough. The Kh-58 has half that range...

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 DeOeuesX0AAKbvG?format=jpg&name=medium
    Tu-22M3: News - Page 29 DeOeuqiW4AEqY5B?format=jpg&name=medium

    Well the Kh-59Mk2 is .4 meters wide, and the mid-section internal bomb bays are 1 meter wide. They should make a modification, call it the Kh-59Mk3, where instead of 2 missiles, it's just one missile that's .8 meters wide (with comformal drop tanks), probably giving it more than double the max range at something like 1,600-1,800km. The range could be more than doubled because as it stands the Kh-59Mk2 design has to share space for electronics, warhead, engine and fuel, while the drop tanks that doubled the width (and spans the whole length) of the missile only has to store fuel.

    Of course by making it wider it'll be more prone to drag, however less so due to the fact that the Kh-59Mk2 (and the Mk3) missile would be subsonic. To mitigate the additional drag caused by doubling the width, as I mentioned they could instead of having a uniform .8 meter wide munition, they could take the existing Kh-59Mk2 design, and add .2 meter wide conformal droppable fuel tanks on each side that could be bolted on. Kh-59Mk3 will have ports on each side to mount the fuel tanks, and fuel veins that lead to the engine. When the fuel is spent, they would be jettisoned leaving largely the same shape as the Kh-59Mk2 design (but with additional side ports), simultaneously shedding dead weight and reducing drag.

    Future iterations of the Su-57 should, ideally speaking have more modular mid section bomb bays. Ideally speaking in my opinion the 2 door bomb bays should be replaced with a modular revolving door system, which would degrade RCS significantly less, and reduce drag when launching munitions. To further reduce RCS degradation, they could have an electro-magnetic opaque aersol gas (aluminum-silica nanosphere aersol like the AFV smoke grenades) be injected in the bomb bays before launching munitions, which could possibly help mask the munitions from detection too (if it coats the munition).

    The revolving door bomb bays could be designed where set piece revolving doors could allow different sized munitions, like for long missiles (sub, super, or hypersonic) that fits the whole length (and the space between) of both bomb bays combined!
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 24, 2020 9:01 am

    If the kh-58 you are talking about is this http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/kh-58ushke/. You are saying that the Russian version only has more 30 km range...

    I am saying the Kh-58 has a long history in Soviet and Russian service and for most of that time its range was 120km from most of the platforms that carried it.

    The exception was the MiG-25 that could launch it from high altitude and high speed and it could reach 200km in that flight profile.

    For the new Kh-58 that is largely changed to be carried internally its flight range is about 250km from aircraft can can get to 15km altitude and mach 2 speed.

    If you think the Russian version can reach 500km then you are being very optimistic...

    I am impressed it can reach 250km.... it has a 150kg warhead which is huge for such a weapon.

    They should make a modification, call it the Kh-59Mk3, where instead of 2 missiles, it's just one missile that's .8 meters wide (with comformal drop tanks), probably giving it more than double the max range at something like 1,600-1,800km.

    If the missile has that sort of range you might as well carry it externally...

    Triples on external weapon racks would be interesting for the Tu-22M3M... the intake mountings for multiple ejector racks for carrying large numbers of iron bombs could be upgraded to carry twin or triple mounts with tandem missile load outs for heavier conventional payloads...

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