Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+82
Gomig-21
Tolstoy
ALAMO
TMA1
caveat emptor
Podlodka77
Mir
lancelot
Arrow
Krepost
Russian_Patriot_
Lurk83
limb
Finty
Backman
owais.usmani
magnumcromagnon
Isos
kvs
AlfaT8
thegopnik
ahmedfire
jhelb
AMCXXL
marcellogo
Azi
ATLASCUB
archangelski
Rodion_Romanovic
hoom
LMFS
GunshipDemocracy
Singular_Transform
Hole
GarryB
GJ Flanker
mnztr
dino00
Cheetah
MC-21
gaurav
Pierre Sprey
T-47
miketheterrible
PapaDragon
TheArmenian
ult
SeigSoloyvov
AK-Rex
Tsavo Lion
OminousSpudd
Benya
David-Lanza
bojcistv
eehnie
Morpheus Eberhardt
wilhelm
andrey19900
Giulio
Svyatoslavich
d_taddei2
JohninMK
Big_Gazza
franco
sepheronx
Mike E
Cyberspec
zg18
mack8
diabetus
Werewolf
flamming_python
Mindstorm
Austin
TR1
George1
IronsightSniper
Stealthflanker
haavarla
psg
Viktor
Admin
86 posters

    Tu-22M3: News

    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform


    Posts : 1032
    Points : 1014
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Singular_Transform Thu May 14, 2020 10:18 pm

    kvs wrote:What the combustion of aluminum nano-powder in pure CO2 shows is that addition of metal nano-powders such as aluminum and
    copper which have O2 affinity opens up new combustion pathways.   This directly implies the increase of thermal energy output
    as more chemical potential energy is released.

    So the 500% burn efficiency increase from copper nano-particle addition is validated by the non-intuitive combustion behaviour
    of these particles.   Chemistry is subject to Gibbs free energy constraints.   Nano-particles have dramatically different surface
    effects compared to bulk materials.    These surface energy effects cannot be neglected in the chemical potential and thus
    change the reaction rates and open up new reactions not possible with bulk materials.  

    The most commonly known surface effect is called the Kelvin curvature effect.   It is typically considered when dealing with
    condensation and evaporation of nano-particles (both liquid and solid).   But it also affects the chemical potential via the
    fact that nano-particles are more surface active (the fraction of the surface mass diverges as the particle diameter goes
    to zero).   At the same time, O2 molecules can attack nano-particle surface molecules or atoms (metal) more easily than
    is the case for bulk materials.   So combustion efficiency increases.    

    I see my comment was removed but the original troll post was not.  Pfft.  Miketheterrible is right about this site.




    Increase the surace affect the speed of combustion, not the energy released by it.

    The energy depends on the mass/free electron ratio of the atoms , so it is severly restricted thanks to the periodic table.

    It is that simple.

    Mixing up hydrogen and oxigen is way better than any nanoparticle, and it gives the best practical energy ouptut for missiles.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Fri May 15, 2020 6:08 am

    That's the kh-SD, Kh-MT, Gzur program, all to be launched from inside the TU-22M3M and Tu-95MS, what I don't understand is why the kh-50 should be launched from the Tu-160, I don't see what that plane gains from that.

    The missiles that fit inside the Tu-22M3 and Tu-95MS will fit double in the Blackjack... whose bomb bays are 12 metres long... so either 6 Kh-102s or 12 Kh-50s in each weapon bay.

    Depending on the flight path a Blackjack might have to fly relatively close to some targets for its longer ranged missiles to reach targets further away so instead of carrying 12 Kh-102s it could carry 6 Kh-102s and also 12 Kh-50s and hit 18 targets instead of 12...

    Or a theatre mission for a Blackjack into europe it might carry 24 Kh-50s instead.

    If so TU-22M3M could have an ~5000km combat radius with 3 Khynzal and 6 Kh-50  Cool

    The three missile arrangement with the Kh-32 has one missile on each wing root hard point and one along the centreline missile semi conformal... half inside the internal bomb bay... so with that configuration you can't carry weapons internally.

    Like this:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 24289811

    The Kinzhal is supposed to be carried fully externally so the two weapon locations on the wing, plus under the air intakes they often fit multiple ejector racks for mounting triples of 500 kg bombs... usually three or four triples so it should be able to take the weight of a Kinzhal and that would leave the belly position for the rotary launcher.

    Note that for export of the Backfire it mentions it can carry up to ten missiles which I always took to mean 6 Kh-15 missiles internally and four externally.

    It might be the wing pylons are extended and two can be carried on each in tandem of course.

    And from your post we can guess kh-50 will be nuclear, or have a nuclear version...

    I would assume nuclear and non nuclear versions...

    I'm talking about the newest variant for su57. It has a range of 500km and is stealthier than other variants with probably Glosnass guidance without the need to turn on the video link (not sure about that however, maybe it's not the case and that why they develop new missiles which are real fire and forget).

    The new square body ones? I believe they have radar equipped noses with more sophisticated radar detecting and identifying targets, but it might keep the data link for selecting targets anyway. I remember the first model had a solid rocket motor to rapidly accelerate the missile out in front of the launch aircraft so the data link pod could gather it and then the jet engine took over. That data link had a range of about 140km, and the missile was called AS-13 Kingbolt or something. They upgraded the electronics so it no longer needed the rocket booster so they put in more fuel and doubled the flight range and extended the effective range of the data link and called it the AS-18 Kazoo or something.

    The new models don't have nose mounted optical ports and I suspect use radar... MMW radar most likely...

    Against a better equiped country hypersonic missiles could be used to deal with big AD like patriot systems the first day but that's what ? Not even 4 systems per country. Then what's the point of using 2000km hypersonic missiles against undefended targets when a simple subsonic cruise missile like kh-59mk2 or kh35 can do the job with enough stand off for the launch aircraft.

    I agree mostly, but while most western countries don't have IADS, they do have lots of fighter planes, which would be ideal to chase down subsonic cruise missiles, but next to useless against hypersonic missiles flying at 30km plus altitudes...

    Hypersonic missiles could be used against a wide range of targets with their short flight times being a real bonus in some situations... catching the other team napping so to speak... but I agree there is plenty of scope for subsonic missiles... they will likely be cheaper to start with, but the engines of hypersonic missiles wont be spectacularly more expensive than modern low fuel consumption turbojets...

    China is using pre cooled engine instead of scramjet for hypersonic cruise missile.  

    You cool engines to keep them from over heating and destroying themselves but generally engines produce heat for propulsion so running hot is only an issue for long term use which is not really a factor in the engine for a missile.

    their air force which is the worst thing to use against cruise missiles.

    If you have AWACS aircraft managing things it wouldn't be so bad, but keeping your planes up looking for cruise missiles sneaking down rivers or along the line of hills out of radar view then yes they are appalling.

    And apart kh-59, russian air force has no other tactical cruise missile with enough stand off range This missile has the disadvantage of needing the pilot to control it in last stage. The other missile is kh-101 but it is huge and I considere it as a strategic missile.

    Well that is what the 500km range Kh-22M and 800km range Kh-32 were for... that is what the Backfire would carry on SEAD and strike missions in to Europe. Some people mistake them for anti carrier missiles but they are heavy strike missiles first... a bit like a large version of the Kh-31 in the P and the A models.

    The land attack models had 800kt nuclear warheads, which should indicate what sort of occupation they were planning in Europe after WWIII.

    IMO a kh-59 with guidance taken from kalibr is the best option for a widely used tactical missile.

    The last model Kh-59 with the box shape has a radar sensor in the nose so it no longer uses optical guidance.

    Ironically a TV guided missile with a 320kg HE warhead and a 115km flight range that could be targeted against an object optically from a standoff launch range outside the range of most naval SAMs of the time would have been an excellent anti ship weapon... in the early 1980s... over water it operated at 7m altitude but over land you could set the height it operated at...

    Regardless, giving the specifications, it shouldn't even be a challenge for Russia to deploy an air-launched Kalibre of 6,2m Length and around 2000kg Mass, with a 1500-2000km range.
    Heck it already exists in export, all they need to do is change the fuel and software, could be deployed in a matter of months.

    The Kalibr is the conventionally armed land attack subsonic 2,500km range missile launched from ships and subs. The aircraft equivalents start with the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 3,000km range subsonic missiles with nuclear and conventional warheads respectively. The Kh-101 is the 5,500km range subsonic conventional equivalent with the nuclear armed Kh-102 also being available.

    The urgency for medium range cruise missiles is largely negated by having Su-34 and Tu-22M3 aircraft as well as Tu-95 and Tu-160 delivery platforms available.

    I see my comment was removed but the original troll post was not. Pfft. Miketheterrible is right about this site.

    Which comment? I didn't remove anything.

    That's the problem. They need one like that. Cheap subsonic cruise missile of 500-600km range.

    Do they?

    I would think land based cruise missiles with 500km range (allowed under the INF treaty) and the new variants with longer range allowed now the INF treaty is no more are always going to be cheaper than air launched models...

    2000km iskander or kinzhal is the best solution and they have big warheads of 800kg with submunitions, cruise missile being more limited to around 300-400. Submunitions cover a wider area.

    Iskander are faster reload cheaper and more easy to operate and they can be armed and ready to fire 24/7.

    So why not add some cruise missiles to those launchers... being a subsonic platform adding a 500 litre fuel tank could greatly extend range without making the missile much bigger or heavier or more expensive...

    Yes sure, that capability gap between tactical and strategic cruise missiles was a very serious problem, moreover Federation need significantly more than 500-600 km range from those weapons because the main targets would be OTAN airbases hosting mostly tactical aircraft (in the next two decades mostly F-35s) which can carry JASSM-JASSM-ER on external pylons and wanting to mantain the stand-off range of domestic airbases ,from which the attacks should take place, against those US-built aircraft you must take into account theirs combat range with a JASSM/JASSM-ER payload.

    I think the old solution was the best solution... some new SS-20 Sabre missile vehicles...

    Increase the surace affect the speed of combustion, not the energy released by it.

    Energy released is surely energy released over time, so increasing the combustion rate is going to release the energy faster... you pull back on the string of a bow slowly but when you release all that stored energy is released immediately moving the arrow through the air far faster than you moved your fingers drawing the string...
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11273
    Points : 11243
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Isos Fri May 15, 2020 9:43 am

    The last model Kh-59 with the box shape has a radar sensor in the nose so it no longer uses optical guidance.

    Ironically a TV guided missile with a 320kg HE warhead and a 115km flight range that could be targeted against an object optically from a standoff launch range outside the range of most naval SAMs of the time would have been an excellent anti ship weapon... in the early 1980s... over water it operated at 7m altitude but over land you could set the height it operated at...

    The latest kh-59mk2 keeps an optical guidance. Go see the pictures. Probably some dual guidance. That has some advantages like the pilot will hit what he sees but also disadvantages like the pilot needs to stay in range to control it and could be intercepted while the missile flies towards its target (not fire and forget like the kalibr).

    Older kh-59 existed in anti ship variants with a radar I think. And the optical guided one could also be used against ship.

    Do they?

    I would think land based cruise missiles with 500km range (allowed under the INF treaty) and the new variants with longer range allowed now the INF treaty is no more are always going to be cheaper than air launched models...

    And that would be a kalibr class missile which is big and overkill. Moreover, land base launchers are always behind frontline limiting their max range. A fighter launched missile can be launched behind the frontline benefiting from fighter's range.

    I was thinking of a missile in the class of Scalp or Taurus. Small, stealthy, subsonic and usable by all their fighter/bombers. The kh'59mk2 is te best basis for that.
    avatar
    Mindstorm


    Posts : 1133
    Points : 1298
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Mindstorm Fri May 15, 2020 12:36 pm


    Isos wrote:The latest kh-59mk2 keeps an optical guidance. Go see the pictures. Probably some dual guidance. That has some advantages like the pilot will hit what he sees but also disadvantages like the pilot needs to stay in range to control it and could be intercepted while the missile flies towards its target (not fire and forget like the kalibr).


    Isos missile Х-59МК2 ,also its "old" iteration not adapted for internal carriage like the new one , integrate the "fire and forget" principle since at least 15 years against its intended targets : enemy military installations with known location.

    It is realized through terminal "target to contour" image correlation and matching system; this allow to destroy intended targets also in total absence of satellite guidance, radar or infrared signature of the targeted structure and even in-site camouflage aimed at render the target irrecognizeable for precision guided munitions employing image collimation with those uploaded and stored in homing head memory.

    Therefore those missiles not only have a fully "fire and forget" capability, but contrarely to wide majority of those employed by foreign counterparts, could be fooled only by the combination of: EW satellite correction's interruption and employment of very-wide area multispectral obscurants such as that produced by ТДА-3.





    Luckily probable enemies lack completely similar wide area protection systems in theirs forces and also high power specialized EW system for wide-area satellite guidance's severance, therefore would be forced to phisically intercept each missile delivered......not having anything like domestic medium and short range SAM systems.

    Good luck.



    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Fri May 15, 2020 2:52 pm

    [quote="Isos"]


    I was thinking of a missile in the class of Scalp or Taurus. Small, stealthy, subsonic and usable by all their fighter/bombers. The kh'59mk2 is te best basis for that.

    Kh-59Mk2 in the Russian version is exactly that...one post from George1 should make it clear
    look at the range of the export version in one of the pictures

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t6570p25-russian-tactical-air-to-surface-missiles-asm#116854
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Fri May 15, 2020 4:42 pm

    Answering Garry:

    I think Tu-160 will carry 12 kh-50 not 24, all the sources I saw say that, if you have another source, even with 12m weapons bay(are you sure?) it's not enough.

    If they could launch 24 kh-50, they could launch 24 kh-555, right?

    Maybe with Tu-160M2 and almost certainly with PAK-DA.

    Yeah my question about the kh-15 was really silly...I was hoping that nobody saw that  Very Happy

    About the nuclear version of Kh-50, what I meant was exactly what you said.

    One interesting thing with the successful test of what we think is Gzur, is that when Putin in March first presented the Hypersonics weapons alongside the others, the western experts and the Pentagon official's talking points was that the American hypersonic program was more vast... now we know that Russia has 2 operational hypersonic missiles(Avangard and Khynzal), two successfully tested( Zircon and Gzur), one in a prototype phase (SU-57 internal missile) and others in development like what I like to call giant Zircon and 15y74 Hgv...so what is the American excuse now for being so behind despite the massive investment? The director of KTRV said Russia has more than 12 hypersonic projects...And i didn't forget anchar-rv that we don't know what it is.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Sat May 16, 2020 5:56 am

    The latest kh-59mk2 keeps an optical guidance.

    Well that is interesting... the Kh-59M2A dropped the optical guidance as shown here:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 H-59mk10

    And all the photos I saw of the Kh-59MK2 did not show it from the front and below so the optical window was not visible so I assumed they didn't reintroduce the optical port.

    The Kh-59M2A is a dedicated anti ship modification of the Kh-59M, where the optical seeker of the original missiles is replaced by the MMW radar of the Kh-35.

    Go see the pictures. Probably some dual guidance. That has some advantages like the pilot will hit what he sees but also disadvantages like the pilot needs to stay in range to control it and could be intercepted while the missile flies towards its target (not fire and forget like the kalibr).

    The Russians have invested a lot of money on AI and image libraries, so I would suspect rather than using a datalink back to the launch aircraft that the seeker can automatically identify IR signatures of 3D objects and determine the target for itself. They are developing the same technology for their 9M100 IIR guided missiles.

    Older kh-59 existed in anti ship variants with a radar I think. And the optical guided one could also be used against ship.

    The first model was optically guided and could be used against land and sea targets... the first model AS-13 Kingbolt could reach about 120km but the requirement for having the guidance pod limited its use to Su-24M and Su-27 use only. They later extended the range of the datalink, but the AS-18 still used a TV seeker.

    It was the more recent Kh-59MK that is pictured above that seems to have replaced the optical seeker with a radar, and has a range of about 285kms or so.

    The Piotr Butowski book on Russian air launched weapons states the Kh-59MK2 uses the guidance system from the Kh-555. It has GLONASS and Inertial guidance to a location of known coordinates using a correlation matching imaging system to locate the precise point of aim... CEP is supposed to be less than 5m.


    And that would be a kalibr class missile which is big and overkill.

    Not overkill.. a ground launched two ton missile with a flight range of 5,000km from a ground launcher replacing a 20 ton aircraft carrying a 1.5 ton missile with a missile range of 3,000km. For the price of an extra ton of fuel you free up your aircraft for other jobs with a system ready to launch 24/7, day or night, and in any weather...

    Moreover, land base launchers are always behind frontline limiting their max range.

    Which is why you make them bigger 2 ton missiles instead of current 1.5 ton air launched ones.

    A fighter launched missile can be launched behind the frontline benefiting from fighter's range.

    A truck could carry 6 missiles that could have a flight range of 5,000km... take 2,000km away from that with a lighter missile and add perhaps 2,000km with the aircraft carrying the missile 2,000km closer and they work out perhaps even, but 6 missiles on a truck is cheap, while you have a limited number of aircraft that will likely have other things to do at the time... that probably don't include flying 1,000km into HATO airspace so the missiles it carries can reach Brussels.

    I was thinking of a missile in the class of Scalp or Taurus. Small, stealthy, subsonic and usable by all their fighter/bombers. The kh'59mk2 is te best basis for that.

    That is its role.

    I think Tu-160 will carry 12 kh-50 not 24, all the sources I saw say that, if you have another source, even with 12m weapons bay(are you sure?) it's not enough.

    Yes, I was wrong about that too... most of their early nuclear armed 1.5 ton cruise missiles like the Calibr and AS-15 Kent cruise missiles were about 6m long and were intended to be carried internally on the Bear and the Blackjack, as well as externally on the Bear. The Tu-95MS16 carried 10 missiles externally on four weapon hardpoints... the two inner pylons carried three missiles each and the two outer pylons carried two missiles each for a total of ten under the wings and 6 more missiles in an internal rotary launcher.

    The Blackjack has internal weapon bays over 11 metres long so there was a lot of empty space when they carried these missiles so the improved Kh-101/102 missiles were much longer... about 7.4m long and weighed 2 tons, but could reach 5,000km range, but their problem was they were now too long to fit into the Bears internal rotary launcher. The internal rotary launcher of the Backfire was never intended to carry long range cruise missiles, but it was intended to carry the Kh-15 short range attack missile. The Blackjack could also carry the Kh-15 and it could carry them in tandem in each of its rotary launchers so it could carry 24 Kh-15s.

    It should be able to carry Gzurs in tandem, but not the Kh-50.

    I had assumed the Kh-50 was going to be a smaller missile that can be carried by large fighters as well as strategic aircraft, but as you point out... at 6m it is too long to be carried in tandem like the shorter Kh-15 missiles so you end up with the situation where the Tu-95MS could return to having 10 wing pylons because the Kh-50 will be the same weight as the Kh-55 and Kh-555 that the Bear used to carry 10 of externally. Add another 6 internally and you have the Bear carrying 16 Kh-50 missiles and the Blackjack only able to carry 12.

    If they could launch 24 kh-50, they could launch 24 kh-555, right?

    It would not take much to extend the bomb bays of the new build Tu-160... they would only need to add 1-2 metres to each weapon bay... wonder how big the FOABs is...

    Anyway this is the Backfire thread...

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Tl4yx310

    Here is an old photo showing the internal weapon bay full of Kh-15s and two Kh-22Ms being carried ( likely not Kh-32s as I don't think their operational times overlapped ).

    Also notice in the photo I posted before... ie this one:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 24289812

    It is worth noting that while the middle missile encroaches into the internal weapon bay and the fact that western experts always said three Kh-22M missiles was a short range max load extreme for airshow and marketing BS photos that would never be used in the real world... notice the bombs mounted on the multiple ejector racks on the engine intakes too in this photo?

    These are generally 500kg bombs on a rack that carries three triples of bombs... so 9 x 500kgs, or 4.5 tons times two, plus three 6 ton missiles... quite a load...
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire


    Posts : 2080
    Points : 2260
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  ahmedfire Sat May 16, 2020 7:18 pm

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Screen10
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Sun May 17, 2020 5:07 am

    I think increasing the size of the weapon bays of the Tu-160M2 to make them a couple of metres longer... say 13-14 metres would allow existing 6m long weapons to be carried in tandem, which would greatly improve capability with only a minor modification.

    More importantly instead of making an 11m large missile to better use the available space in the weapon bays, they could make it a 12m or 13m long missile and get even better performance potential.

    Whether they choose to do that or not, they should develop full sized missiles and half sized missiles and perhaps even 1/3rd sized missiles to allow flexibility in arming them.

    Wasn't one of the changes to the Tu-22M3M design an extension of the internal weapon bay?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Mon May 18, 2020 10:58 am

    Actually looking at this graphic:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 09763610

    ... Is that talking about a 4.78 metre long cruise missile with a high subsonic flight speed and a launch range between 4,500 and 9,000km... Product 715?

    The length of 4.78m is the same as the Kh-15 so it will fit inside the Tu-22M3 and also inside the Bear and the Blackjack... 6 inside the Bear and 24 inside the Blackjack...

    The thing I am wondering is why they would have a Kh-50 when they are working on the Product 715 because the Product 715 would be ideal for the Tu-160 and the Tu-22M3 and the Bear... in fact at 4.78m they might even be able to fit two in tandem on a Bear weapon pylon so even if they kept the four external pylons per wing instead of five external pylons, with the shorter missile they could carry 16 missiles on the 8 external weapon pylons and a further 6 missiles internally.

    Experience has shown that targets require a lot of missiles to assure penetrating air defences and short small missiles would make sense as a numbers missile...

    You could start an attack with a mixed flight of Bears and Backfires with Zircon or other hypersonic missiles launched with much larger numbers of subsonic missiles... the hypersonic missiles can target radar and SAM sites and main targets and then hours later the subsonic missiles will arrive and hammer everything else...
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Mon May 18, 2020 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually looking at this graphic:

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 09763610

    ... Is that talking about a 4.78 metre long cruise missile with a high subsonic flight speed and a launch range between 4,500 and 9,000km... Product 715?

    The length of 4.78m is the same as the Kh-15 so it will fit inside the Tu-22M3 and also inside the Bear and the Blackjack... 6 inside the Bear and 24 inside the Blackjack...

    The thing I am wondering is why they would have a Kh-50 when they are working on the Product 715 because the Product 715 would be ideal for the Tu-160 and the Tu-22M3 and the Bear... in fact at 4.78m they might even be able to fit two in tandem on a Bear weapon pylon so even if they kept the four external pylons per wing instead of five external pylons, with the shorter missile they could carry 16 missiles on the 8 external weapon pylons and a further 6 missiles internally.

    Experience has shown that targets require a lot of missiles to assure penetrating air defences and short small missiles would make sense as a numbers missile...

    You could start an attack with a mixed flight of Bears and Backfires with Zircon or other hypersonic missiles launched with much larger numbers of subsonic missiles... the hypersonic missiles can target radar and SAM sites and main targets and then hours later the subsonic missiles will arrive and hammer everything else...

    Product 715 is the KH-50 missile. That graphic is wrong, they put the size of kh-15 on kh-50, I think this was discussed earlier, the launch range of 4500km /9000km is also a mistake.
    What I find strange is kh-50 with only less 1.4 my and slightly thinner would loose 3000km in range compared with kh-101 Suspect  and kh-50 will have an improved engine...
    See this link
    https://iz.ru/663570/aleksei-ramm/ubiitcam-avianostcev-popolniat-arsenal
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Wed May 20, 2020 12:04 am

    Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.
    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.

    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11273
    Points : 11243
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Isos Wed May 20, 2020 12:32 am

    Treaties work only in peace time. They can easily switch for a nuclear armed missiles if the same missile is used with conventionnal warhead and if that same missile is used on tu-160/pak da as a nuclear weapon.

    That should be the case for any new missile. Cold war era bombers were designed to use few type of missiles each. New bombers thanks to modern computers can use any new missile.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8138
    Points : 8273
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed May 20, 2020 1:08 am

    dino00 wrote:Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.
    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.

    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...

    That's assuming there will be a new Start Treaty, but the Pentagram is now making impossible demands. They've demanded China join, Russia stop all development of strategic prospective programs (Storm Petrel, Avantegard, Poseidon, etc.) The only reason why the last Start treaty got passed was because it was under the guise of a fake 'reset', which imploded within a year. The treaty before collapsed because of the U.S. side's insistence to pursue cruise missile capable Aegis Ashore, on land, a clear cut violation of the INF Treaty. The Pentagram has even hinted at restarting nuclear testing, and using thermonuclear bombs in theaters like a potential war with Iran. The US side is already negotiating in bad faith, so it's extremely naive to assume the treaty is continuing under this terrible climate.
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2729
    Points : 2767
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  mnztr Wed May 20, 2020 2:41 am

    Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15047
    Points : 15184
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  kvs Wed May 20, 2020 3:23 am

    mnztr wrote:Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    I agree. The NATzO west has blown its wad with anti-Russian hate propaganda. There is nothing restraining Russia since whatever it does
    it will be blood libeled.

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 7383
    Points : 7341
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  miketheterrible Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 am

    kvs wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    I agree.   The NATzO west has blown its wad with anti-Russian hate propaganda.   There is nothing restraining Russia since whatever it does
    it will be blood libeled.


    Agreed. There needs to be a more tougher approach from Russia.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Wed May 20, 2020 2:02 pm

    Product 715 is the KH-50 missile. That graphic is wrong, they put the size of kh-15 on kh-50, I think this was discussed earlier, the launch range of 4500km /9000km is also a mistake.

    Yes, of course the flight range is wrong, but to fit inside the Tu-22M3 it would need to be a similar size to the Kh-15 and such a physical size would also be useful for other aircraft to carry the weapon in numbers.... this is supposed to be the high numbers low cost cruise missile that is basically carried by everything... a JDDAM or whatever equivalent...

    What I find strange is kh-50 with only less 1.4 my and slightly thinner would loose 3000km in range compared with kh-101 Suspect and kh-50 will have an improved engine...

    If it is 6m long... if it is 4.78m long then it loses 2.6m... it is only supposed to reach 1,500-2,500km or so anyway...

    Just to point a thing I forget, to not be considered a heavy bomber in Start treaty, TU-22M3M has to have less than 8000km range and nuclear cruise missiles with range below 600km.

    The only START treaty that currently means anything is the new START and it expires in about 7-8 months time (Feb 2021).

    The Russians said the TU-22M3M won't be a heavy bomber...so kh-50, Kh-MT and GZUR won't be nuclear.
    Edit: and there's a source that says the Kh-MT is the GZUR...

    You mean like the US said AEGIS ashore uses the standard Mk41 launcher that can be fitted with Tomahawk cruise missiles.... they said it just wouldn't load them...

    Russia needs to be more dickish about these treaties, it should threathen to leave the NPT. I hope they start arming Iran big time

    Well the thing is that right now outside the west Russia actually has a big of respect and can be seen to do the right thing when others around them are revealing their weaknesses.

    The Backfire is a theatre weapon... whether it can reach strategic targets or not is not the point... the M3M seems to have inflight refuelling reinstalled... but not to make it a strategic bomber, but to give it better performance in the theatre mission it is being used for... so it wont need to stop off in Iran for refuelling for instance when dropping bombs on terrorists in Syria.
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Wed May 20, 2020 8:50 pm

    GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?
    avatar
    Mindstorm


    Posts : 1133
    Points : 1298
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Mindstorm Wed May 20, 2020 9:32 pm

    dino00 wrote:GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?

    Only Partially.

    KH-59MK2 has been purposely conceived to be contained in the internal weapon bays of Су-57 and therefore has some obvious unavoidable limitations for what attain the range requirements that the MoD put for new substrategic weapons.

    KH-59MK2 will surely, and significantly, outrange anything an F-35 can carry in its internal weapon bays for theatre operations, but at the substrategic level it will concede to the externally mounted JASSM-ER.
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Wed May 20, 2020 9:52 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    dino00 wrote:GarryB:

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.
    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    Mindstorm:


    "The unique segment of lag is in the sub-strategic range, particularly the niche occupied by JASSM/JASSM-ER".  

    Isn't this the same niche of KH-59MK2?

    Only Partially.

    KH-59MK2 has been purposely conceived to be contained in the internal weapon bays of Су-57 and therefore has some obvious unavoidable limitations for what attain the range requirements that the MoD put for new substrategic weapons.

    KH-59MK2 will surely, and significantly, outrange anything an F-35 can carry in its internal weapon bays for theatre operations, but at the substrategic level it will concede to the externally mounted JASSM-ER.

    Surprised by the bold part of your answer, Jassm-er has more diameter so more fuel...makes sense.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Thu May 21, 2020 6:27 am

    If it has 4.78 mt why bother? They have the Kh-59Mk2 with 4.2 mt... Can be launched from inside the weapons bay of SU-57, and maybe all others bombers,.

    Well can I turn that around and say if it is 6 metres long then why bother when the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 are 6 metres long and have flight ranges of 3,000km already.

    What they don't have is a smaller shorter ranged weapon that can be carried in larger numbers than existing Kh-55 and Kh-555 missiles.

    The Kh-59MK2 is a 500km range weapon... this weapon is supposed to have at least three or four times that range at about 1,500km or 2,000km...

    Kh-50 is a missile build from scratch, they want the missile to have the biggest range possible.

    Well they are not achieving that goal if it is 6m long and has less range than existing cruise missile types that size.

    By making it 4.78m long they can get them in to the Backfires internal weapon bay, and the Bears internal weapon bay (that can take 6m missiles but not 7.4m missiles) and two in each position on the rotary launcher of a Blackjack (total 24 missiles if necessary).

    If they make it 6m long like the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 then it wont fit internally on the Backfire and will fit in the Bear, but why would you carry it on the Blackjack because you are trading one for one with missiles with much better range in the form of the Kh-101/2. Why swap a single 6m long Kh-50 with 1,500km range with a single 7.4m long conventional Kh-101 that can reach 4,500km or 5,000km in the kh-102 nuke model?

    What they really need to do is make models to fit the launchers or change the launchers... make all the internal launchers slightly longer so the Bear can take 7.4m long missiles internally, and the Backfire can take 6m long missiles internally and the Blackjack so it can take two 6m long missiles internally and make the replacement for the Kh-101/2 into a 12m long missile to fill up the space properly.

    Or they can make the small "tactical" cruise missile a 4.78m long weapon that has a double warhead on the Backfire version with a range of 600km, and a Blackjack version with a range of maybe 2,000km... so it could carry 12 Gzur missiles in one bay and 12 Kh-50 in the other... or 6 of each in one (total 12 missiles) and 6 long range missiles in the other bay for 18 missiles total.

    I think they give up on the opportunity of launch 24 missiles from inside the TU-160, I think they have the idea that having more combat radius is more important than launching 24 missiles.

    The Gzur could be a Kickback replacement... if it is 6m long then if the Kh-50 is 4.8m long then perhaps they could be paired in one bomb bay.... 6 Gzur missiles and 6 Kh-50s with the other weapon bay carrying 6 x 7.4m Kh-102s.
    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Thu May 21, 2020 11:12 am

    Well can I turn that around and say if it is 6 metres long then why bother when the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 are 6 metres long and have flight ranges of 3,000km already. wrote:

    I knew you could do that Very Happy that's why I said built from scratch, KH-50 has a flattened profile, KH-55SM doesn't, I think that even if they are the same length TU-22M3M couldn't launch kh-55SM, obviously KH-50 has a stealth profile that KH -55SM doesn't have, and in subsonic cruise missiles that's important.

    The[b] Kh-59MK2 is a 500km range weapon[/b]... this weapon is supposed to have at least three or four times that range at about 1,500km or 2,000km... wrote:

    I really really doubt that...the export version has a range of 290 km...from Tass: Russia to develop cruise missiles capable of striking targets at 1,000km range
    The missiles will be developed before 2020


    Work is under way on a new family of items with a range of 200km, 400km, 600km and 1,000km. That is why, work in this area is being carried out. I believe that before 2020 we’ll surely roll out this family of items [missiles]," Obnosov said at the MAKS-2017 airshow, responding to a question about whether Russia was developing the analog of the US JASSM high precision long-range cruise missile.

    https://tass.com/defense/957105

    I think KH-59MK2 is the 1000km range, Mindstorm said that the former concedes to JASSM-ER, that's probably, But Jassm-er has a lot more than over 925km.

    Well they are not achieving that goal if it is 6m long and has less range than existing cruise missile types that size. wrote:

    But I don't think it has, the stealth shape will reduce the range, the diameter looks small than KH-101, it all depends on the weight of the warhead, but I won't be surprised if it has more than 3000km range with a conventional warhead.
    A new Russian air-launched cruise missile 6 mt long, a completely new design engine, build with different materials that the Kh-55 family, the best solid fuel available, and it has 1500km range lol1

    If they make it 6m long like the Kh-55SM and Kh-555 then it wont fit internally on the Backfire and will fit in the Bear wrote:

    It will, KH-50 and GZUR were built especially for the Backfire.

    but why would you carry it on the Blackjack because you are trading one for one with missiles with much better range in the form of the Kh-101/2. Why swap a single 6m long Kh-50 with 1,500km range with a single 7.4m long conventional Kh-101 that can reach 4,500km or 5,000km in the kh-102 nuke model? wrote:

    Agree 100% if you remember I made this question with other words.

    The Gzur could be a Kickback replacement wrote:

    Now we are talking attack and what a great replacement! They could have 6 GZUR and 6 Kh-101/2.










    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 36
    Location : portugal

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 Thu May 21, 2020 11:24 am

    All the quotes above are from GarryB, I can't edit without the quotes disappearing, anyway there's some time I don't speak about KH-MT Very Happy I'm the only one, looks like a monologue lol1 just this though I will shut up with Kh-MT, if it isn't Gzur it could be a longer KH-58UShKE.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38765
    Points : 39261
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB Fri May 22, 2020 1:23 pm

    KEPD 350 Taurus, Storm Shadow,SCALP, Delilah, SOM cruise missile etc. A lot of precise equipment with a range of several hundred kilometers.

    Russia has air defence missiles with effective ranges of 400km at the moment, and soon 600km with the S-500, therefore in terms of stand off range you would need the weapons to have standoff ranges of these distances at the minimum to reach the actual targets and not just penetrate the borders of Russian airspace...

    Russian equivalents really don't have similar problems...

    I knew you could do that Very Happy that's why I said built from scratch, KH-50 has a flattened profile, KH-55SM doesn't, I think that even if they are the same length TU-22M3M couldn't launch kh-55SM, obviously KH-50 has a stealth profile that KH -55SM doesn't have, and in subsonic cruise missiles that's important.

    The Kh-50 is not supposed to be a strategic cruise missile.... it is not supposed to be carried on strategic missions... it is supposed to be the sort of missile they would fire at Syria or other similar conventional attacks from aircraft like the Backfire, but also the Blackjack and Bear on such non strategic missions.

    The Kh-59MKK2 was not really designed from scratch... it just has a reprofiled shell for internal carriage... they could easily do that with the Kh-555 if all they wanted was a stealthy weapon.

    I really really doubt that...the export version has a range of 290 km...from Tass: Russia to develop cruise missiles capable of striking targets at 1,000km range
    The missiles will be developed before 2020

    Have you not followed the family history of the weapon?

    The original Kh-59 was a rocket powered weapon with a 150kg warhead and a range of about 40km and an all up weight of about 750kgs.

    It had inertial flight to the target area and then TV command guidance for terminal attack.

    This was replaced by the upgraded Kh-59M which added a complicated propulsion system... instead of a solid rocket booster and a rocket sustainer, it has a solid rocket booster to rapidly accelerate the missile to out in front of the aircraft so it can be captured by the guidance pod and then a turbojet engine sustainer starts up and powers it to 115km range... limited by the range of the datalink... the warhead is doubled but the all up weight of the weapon goes up to about 930kgs.

    The Kh-59MK has the MMW radar seeker of the Kh-35 fitted and is an anti ship missile and because it does not use a datalink its flight range is not restricted to 115km. Its range of course is restricted by the size of the target... a small boat it has a range of about 145km, while a large boat (5,000 sq metres) it has a range of about 285km. The Kh-59MK doesn't need the solid rocket booster to launch it rapidly ahead of the aircraft to gather with a datalink pod so the solid rocket booster is replaced with more fuel for the turbofan engine extending the range.

    The point is that the Kh-59MK has a body diameter of about 38cm, while the Kh-59MKK2 is a square 40cm by 40cm... so there is more room for fuel.

    I think KH-59MK2 is the 1000km range, Mindstorm said that the former concedes to JASSM-ER, that's probably, But Jassm-er has a lot more than over 925km.

    But the Kh-59MKK2 is wider than the older models it is also shorter... it is only 4.2m long while the Kh-59MK is about 5.6m long, so I would think even guessing at a range of 500km for the Kh-59MKK2 is already being rather generous.

    I would suspect if they have a family of weapons with ranges of 200km 400km, 600km, and 1,000km, that they will likely be either a scaled group of missiles... all the same but of different sizes and weights of fuel, or perhaps a single size that has a different mix of warhead and fuel weight, so the 200km missile might be with a 1 ton warhead and the rest fuel, while the 400km range missile might have a 750kg warhead and the rest fuel, while the 600km range missile might have a 400kg warhead, and the 1,000km range missile might have a 200kg warhead perhaps... or they might all have scaled weights and sizes so the 1,000km range weapon might be carried by Blackjacks and Bears and possibly the Su-34, while the Tu-22M3 might carry the 600km range models, and the Su-35 and MiG-35 and Su-57 might carry the 200km and 400km models....

    But I don't think it has, the stealth shape will reduce the range, the diameter looks small than KH-101, it all depends on the weight of the warhead, but I won't be surprised if it has more than 3000km range with a conventional warhead.

    A stealthy shape is generally very low drag with all its sharp angles so I really don't think it would reduce range on its own. Nuclear warheads are much more compact and lighter than conventional warheads... HE is not very dense so to carry 200kgs means it takes up a lot of space. The Kh-101 conventional missile is supposed to have a 400kg warhead and 4,500km range, while the Kh-102 with a nuclear warhead will have a range of 5,000km or more depending on the flight profile... A strategic missile can often fly at medium to high altitude without using high throttle settings for hours to greatly extending flight range...

    A new Russian air-launched cruise missile 6 mt long, a completely new design engine, build with different materials that the Kh-55 family, the best solid fuel available, and it has 1500km range

    If it is subsonic then high energy fuel does not help unless you can get it to super cruise at supersonic speed... the Kh-55SM used large saddle fuel tanks to get a flight range of 3,000km, and the motor it used wasn't a bad motor... You add range by adding fuel, which adds weight... you can't double a fighter jets flight range by adding external fuel tanks.... the extra weight and drag means the extra fuel doens't directly add to flight range... the extra fuel reduces fuel efficiency and increases drag and reduces thrust to weight ratio and slows you down.

    The easiest solution is to make the missile longer which allows a serious increase in weight without a huge increase in drag because you have the same cross section. Larger heavier missiles need bigger wings which means higher drag too...


    It will, KH-50 and GZUR were built especially for the Backfire.

    Well it would make more sense to make them short enough to be carried internally on the Backfire... so either make the missiles less than 5m long or make the Backfire internal weapon bay able to take 6m long missiles.

    I can see the shitstorm from the US now because an enlarged internal weapon bay makes it a strategic bomber, so making the missiles smaller I think makes much more sense all round.


    Now we are talking attack and what a great replacement! They could have 6 GZUR and 6 Kh-101/2.

    But Gzur uses a ramjet so it does not need to be 6m long to travel 1,500km to its target... it will be moving at mach 6... which is about 1.9km/s... that means it will be covering 1,500km in about 781 seconds or about 13 minutes... in comparison at subsonic speeds flying that distance would take 4687 seconds or one and a half hours... now for a missile intended to clear the way ahead of a strategic bomber having your clearing away missile move at a speed very close to the speed of your bomber makes very little sense. It is likely easier to fit fuel to run a ramjet for 13 minutes into a 4.8m long missile than to fit the fuel to run a turbojet for an hour an a half in a 6m long missile.

    If Gzur is 4.78m long you can have the same loadout as with Kh-15 on both the Backfire and Blackjack... the Backfire could carry 10 (four externally and 6 internally) and the Blackjack could carry 24 though normally it would carry 12 Kickbacks and 6 long range cruise missiles.

    If the 1,000km range weapon in that new family is 6m long then the Blackjack could carry 6 in each weapon bay (total 12 weapons) plus 6 x 4.8m Gzur self defence missiles in each weapon bay too... which means 12 precision land attack 1,000km range missiles and 12 x 1,500km range ramjet powered self defence missiles...  of course by default Gzur would be nuclear armed like the Kickback missile so perhaps 12 x 1,000km range weapons plus 12 Kh-50s if they were 4.8m long for a totally conventional load out of precision guided cheap weapons.

    Sponsored content


    Tu-22M3: News - Page 28 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:13 pm