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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:12 pm

    A very interesting post from the saker

    http://thesaker.is/understanding-the-outcome-of-the-war-for-nagorno-karabakh/

    I do not want to repost the article, but a couple of comments (from the author himself) below the article are deserving of attention

    The Saker wrote: (...)
    I am already getting hate mail from pseudo-Christian imbeciles who think that this is an Islam vs Christianity issue. I can’t even begin to put in words how kind of pseudo-Christian nonsense depresses me – when faced with such pretend “Christians” (“Soros Christianity”, I suppose!) I really feel like throwing in the towel and giving up.
    Frankly, I am ashamed and embarrassed by how terminally STUPID some (a lot>?!) of my “Christian” brothers are…
    I wish they learned about how Saint Photios the Great deal with Islam and Muslim leaders…
    You know what it feels to research a topic for HOURS and DAYS and then get that kind of illiterate and, frankly, bigoted crap as a reaction to that work? Just makes me feel like giving up and just live the rest of my days in peace.
    (sorry, I had to get that off my chest)
    But no, I won’t do that. Why? Because the truth is worth suffering for. It is really that simple. At least for me. Yeah, I am naive, romantic and Pollyannish. But that’s me. They can’t change me and I refuse to cave in.
    My only loyalty is to Christ. Not to pretend “Christians”!
    Screw them! I have NO desire to change or join the herd.
    Hugs and cheers!

    the saker wrote: (...) Though some will never believe me, I am a friend the Armenian people (who have been very kind and good friends to me). And do I really need to tell you that I see Erdogan and his neo-Ottoman delusions of grandeur as a major treat not only to Russia, but to the entire region!?
    I wish there were decent and sane people in power in power Erevan. In fact, I am pretty sure that they WILL come to power. And I feel horrible for having to say a lot of very unpleasant truth to my Armenian friends! But, please, remember the utter disgrace, shame and, frankly, total dishonor of Russia during the Elstin years!
    Pashinian and the rest of them Sorosites are just the (nominally) Armenian version of Eltsin and his gang of Semibankirshchina!
    The truth is that I really wish Armenia and the Armenian people all the peace and prosperity they deserve. I wish that too to the beautiful and long suffering Ukrainian nation!
    But it is PRECISELY because Russia suffered pure hell under Eltins that I know that as long as the people of Armenia and the Ukraine suffer under the yoke of terminal SOBs like “Ze” or Pashinian there is no hope for these nations. Is it not my moral duty as a friend of both the Ukraine and Armenia to say this openly? To call it as I see it?
    Right now Pashinian and his Sorosites are doing what all “liberals” do: they blame the entire universe and declare themselves as innocent, pure, victims. And as “Christian martyrs” while they are at it!
    These are all lies.
    My advice to the next government of Armenia? Prove to Putin that you are even BETTER allies than the Azeris who, let’s just look reality in the eyes, superbly played their card and never gave Russia a reason to see them as enemies.
    Maybe a return to power of Sarkisian is the solution?
    I don’t know.
    What I do know is this: most Russians love and respect Armenians! But we are not ideological enough to pretend not to understand that Pashinian is CIA/MI6, a clear and unequivocal prostitute to the Empire and a hypocritical enemy of Russia!
    For Russia, this is not a Islam vs Christianity issue.
    It is a credible allies vs Empire puppets.
    You would do the same thing, if you were in our boots.
    Still, Russia has, and will, guarantee the safety of all the Armenian people. Even if some Armenian politicians hate us, we will never allow the Turks to genocide you ever again. The CSTO (which many dismiss for no good reason) is a guarantor of that. And even without the CSTO, no Russian leader will EVER allow the Turks to mass murder the Christians of the Caucasus.
    Right now the pain and humiliation of the defeat are understandably blinding the mental eyes of many Armenians, but I trust (I know!) that there are wise Armenians who will correctly understand the causes and consequences of this war, and they will do the right thing. Armenians did not survive in this very dangerous region by being fools!
    God willing, the current outrage in Erevan will free Armenia from Soros’ and USA’s colonial domination! God willing, wise Armenian patriots will take power! And, God willing, we all, Russians, Armenians and Azeris will learn how to live in peace.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:53 pm

    Armenia is doing what Azerbaijan did to Russia. Kick out the Russia oligarchs and become prosperous.

    Except if that was true then they kicked out the Russians and... got invaded.

    US military base in Armenia is serious threat to Russia.

    US bases in Armenia is more likely to get a response from Iran than Russia.

    Armenia is like Serbia to Russia... traditional friend and ally but beyond easy reach when the brown stuff hits the whirling blades of the air cooling system.

    I'm surprised Georgia allows Russian flights through. I though Georgia is at war with Russia.

    Nah... just assholes doing as they are told... like europe...

    @Penguin,

    Hi, it is a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction thread in the members rules and introductions section. While there it would be a good opportunity to also take the time to skim  through the rules as well... I'll save my welcome greetings to that new thread you post... nice start BTW... Smile

    But the only thing he had to do is to use common sense, respect international law and let dickheads work for him

    Amazing how often such common sense is mistaken for evil genius... really gets the western governments... respecting international law is really a sneaky trick they never expect...

    That would mean that they are backing out of the agreement and that Azeris have a go ahead to finish the job

    Of course should that happen they will blame Russia again just like they do now and are continuing to place preservation of Pashinian above all else

    That guy built a personality cult in record time, I have never seen group of gophers worshiping a Messiah as hard as them (eat your hear out Kim Jong Un)

    Loyalty they exibit for him is insane, Pasha comes first, Armenia second, NK is not even on the list

    Once Azeris reclaim their territory Armenians will be going into full Kiev-style psychosis at which point best course of action would be to just evacuate that base in Armenia and let Turks lay down the law

    Russia is saddled defending Armenia as a legacy of Soviet nostalgia but Soviet Union is long gone and benefits of keeping Armenia in existence are dwarfed by huge and pointless costs

    At some point they will have to stop buying into sunk cost fallacy

    Last several years (and last several months in particular) demonstrated that Armenia is as far away from ally as it can get short of becoming an enemy and is more of a security risk than Azerbaijan ever could be

    Or you could say that any country likes to experiment occasionally, and sometimes they get it wrong and pay a terrible price... like the Ukraine has... or they suffer from someone who is past his time and refuses to go like Belarus, but some times you get lucky and a guy who knows what he is doing gets the reigns like Russia.

    A leader with a bit more sense in Armenia and things might go back to how they were 5-10 years ago, but with the Azeris much less upset about the situation and more inclined to talk and negotiate.

    Hopefully there will be clauses that allow Russia to use force to restore peace if either side uses force to break the agreement, so things should be stable unless the Azeris elect a nutter that thinks beating Armenia is easy and it just takes a genius leader like him to take everything...

    1) putin is so smart that he punished armenia for electing pasha ,to surrender to russia worse enemies. so that russia enemeis become much stronger later to fight russia..

    Putin can't tell the Armenians who to elect... if they want to elect some dick that chases the US and EU for trade and partnership Putin is not going to stop him and tell him off for betraying his own people, but he doesn't need to jump immediately to his defence either... Armenia punished itself by electing an anti Russian politician... just the same way the Ukraine punished itself by becoming anti Russian too... Putin couldn't do anything then either but are you going to blame him for the situation in the Ukraine too? They made their choice and they are living with the result... Armenia is in pretty good shape in comparison.

    2) or you could say putin is so bad president ,that he not only betrays those that have put their trust
    on russia by leaving them alone when they most need it..as he did to syria for 4 years and with armenia now , but also betrays his own military by allowing them to be killed by russia enemeis with impunity and pretend later that it was not an act of war.. but a mistake. so he allow it to happen ,to encourage them to kill more russians..

    Putin is not president of Ukraine or Belarus or Armenia... he can no more tell them what to do than they can tell him what to do. They are his brothers. He can give them advice but at the end of the day the decisions have to be made by them and he just has to accept those decisions because having a big military and nuclear weapons doesn't help when a neighbour goes spastic and thinks the west is the solution to all their problems and that their problems are all caused by Russia.


    so putin weakness ,

    Polite, sensible, follows the laws the west ignores... I can see why you hate him.

    Armenia is a buffer zone like Ukraine or Belorussia or Azerbaijan or Mongolia to have a no man's land in case of war with enemy empire like nato or Turkey (Ottomans).

    Russia needs those country to be controled by them or at least be neutral.

    That's why it was important for them to not attack Azerbaijan so that both Azerbaijan and Armenia don't go full retarted and put NATO or turkish bases there.

    It is also pretty cool to make peace rather than just go in and destroy the enemy of your perceived ally in this situation...

    Russia has discarded its allies repeatedly in the not so distant past: Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein, Muammar al-Qaddafi.

    Make stupid choices and nothing will save you... and Saddam and Gadaffi both wanted to westernise their countries... all three are big boys that don't listen or do what they are told... over the 20 odd years before Desert Storm Saddam was more an American pet than a Soviet one...


    Bab / Afrin region controlled by TFSA can be bargaining chip for Donbas. If Erdogan orders Ukraine to go after Donbas then Russia will go after Bab / Afrin. Let's see who has more to lose.

    Hahahaha... I am sure the Russians will say double dare you... Ukrainian forces will get slaughtered if they tried any shit, and besides a serious attack on Donbas and Putin might say that breaks the Minks agreements... how about you guys have a nice quick referendum on joining the Russian Federation and we will send peace making troops to ensure stability for the vote...

    In Syria... the people of Afrin would probably welcome Russian supported Assad forces... they probably forgot what running water and a working sewerage system was like...

    You little buggers were saying it isn't Russia's business (i can quote all the official position gang) while it WAS since the get go, but Russia used it cynically to bring pash down. This is the gangster move. Because it let young men die for what is basically a power move.

    The situation was created by Armenia... they voted that dick into power and let him turn west... if he didn't send Armenian forces into NK then why should Russia send their men?

    Plus I'd like to reiterate yet again that Armenia never recognized Nagorno Karabah and never deployed it's military because they didn't want to break any taboos but they had no ​problem expecting Russia to break them on their behalf

    Which shows how dumb their leadership was...  after kicking the Azeri population out and not letting them come back they could easily have organised a referendum on the status of the region... worked in the Crimea... UN accepts that a referendum is legal irrespective of any constitutions that prevent it because the people living on the land have the right to determine their independence or sovereignty.

    Also let's not forget that it was Armenia who kept refusing any Russia brokered solution for past several decades while completely neglecting it's defenses and ditching only country that could save their asses

    You could also argue that not talking to the Azeris about this justified military action, but I still don't agree with that.

    I still feel the use of force to change boundaries should not be allowed where ever possible...

    You and your butt buddies folded after barely hearing the swansong of Russia's LRA. F*gs.

    This forum has rules regarding how members interact and one of those rules is about not disrespecting other members, you can apologise and no further action will be taken, but if you choose not to apologise and I receive a complaint from the member in question you will find you have a short break from this forum to think about your behaviour.

    You can bash ideas all you like but personal insults are not OK.

    Shove your drivel on some pro-NATzO forum, hater genius.

    People... do I need to lock this thread and give everyone a timeout?

    A very interesting post from the saker

    Good post... well worth reading...

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    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:19 pm

    Pacense wrote:I still don't see how this a victory for Russia.

    Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.

    I don't quite see evidence that Armenia tried to come closer to Nato, or the West. Even if the current political leadership try it, its what we call in Portugal, foam from the drink. It's just political manauvers on the daily basis. Today Armenia has this PM, tomorrow it can elect another. We must see things in the long run.

    My point is: Turkey who had no saying in that region has a strong saying now. And no matter how we see it, the Armenian populaion will leave NK for good, as there living conditions there will be impossible. So basically, a Turkish-Muslin country conquered some territoy to Indo European-Christian country.

    Can't grasp any shred of victory here. Zero.

    Hope I'm wrong.


    Boots on the ground cost Russia almost nothing in cmparison to what they already spend for the the Two Brigades in Armenia.
    Things in the long run, are the same. Armenia had no legal standing in Karabagh. Now it has one.
    Turkey had a lot to say in the Region as it served as a revolving door for Georgia and Azerbaijan. You maybe forget that Turkey offered to "help" in case the 12th military base in Batumi resisted withdrawal .
    Armenian population with retract from parts of NK, but surely not move from Artsakh fully because the Russian interest is to have them there.

    It was a Muslim country to begin with. There are many historical faults from the USSR, but legally that land would have to be wrestled from Azerbaijan through sheer and utter destruction. It's doable, just not now.


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    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:37 pm

    Sooner or later Azerbaijan will pull a Georgia on Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh and Russia will go to war with Azerbaijan and beat the shit out of Azerbaijan and recognize Artsakh and Armenia will join the war and Artsakh will become a sovereign state ala Kosovo, North Cyprus, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and take control of the entire Karabakh.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:39 pm

    Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.

    They pay them the same if they are on russian ground or armenian ground.

    And they will pay nothing to have them there. Only supplies will cost them but again they feed soldiers also when they are in russian bases.

    They are peacekeepers so they will just drive their vehicles which is the same as if they drive them in exercice in Russia.

    They are also not using their weapons which is what cost lot of money.

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    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:41 pm

    Russia refused to draft UNSC resolution to protect civilians the way France did in 2011 when Gaddafi was marching on Benghazi. Russia waited until Armenia lost Sushi before they deployed peacekeepers. This way Russia plays on Armenian emotions and make Armenians hate Azerbaijanis because hate is beneficial for Russians to control its former Soviet minions.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:20 pm

    kvs wrote:

    What a surprise, the liberats are spewing exactly the same sort of drivel as the resident Russia haters on this forum.

    So poor little Pussynian's fall is all Putin's fault and plucky little Armenia with its democracy loving Prime Minister
    managed to at least secure some of NK:

    1) It was NK local forces that managed not to fully lose NK.   Pussynian did precisely nothing to help them.

    2) Actually it was Russia that prevented the full loss of NK by stopping the Azeri military campaign when
    the situation developed.   Pussynian would have never been able to reach a deal involving peacekeepers
    and without full loss of NK, with Aliyev.

    But of course, it is all Putin's Machiavellian gangsterism in the minds of all those afflicted with the Russia derangement
    syndrome.

    There is a mentality on this board that is reflected by libtards - they think Russia should be the ones to save everyone. But then also shouldn't get involved at same time.

    You see, essentially is is a damned if you do and damned if you dont. You can't win with these people. But, they expose themselves for the Colts they are

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    franco
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    Post  franco Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:48 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Pacense wrote:I still don't see how this a victory for Russia.

    Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.

    I don't quite see evidence that Armenia tried to come closer to Nato, or the West. Even if the current political leadership try it, its what we call in Portugal, foam from the drink. It's just political manauvers on the daily basis. Today Armenia has this PM, tomorrow it can elect another. We must see things in the long run.

    My point is: Turkey who had no saying in that region has a strong saying now. And no matter how we see it, the Armenian populaion will leave NK for good, as there living conditions there will be impossible. So basically, a Turkish-Muslin country conquered some territoy to Indo European-Christian country.

    Can't grasp any shred of victory here. Zero.

    Hope I'm wrong.


    Boots on the ground cost Russia almost nothing in cmparison to what they already spend for the the Two Brigades in Armenia.
    Things in the long run, are the same. Armenia had no legal standing in Karabagh. Now it has one.
    Turkey had a lot to say in the Region as it served as a revolving door for Georgia and Azerbaijan. You maybe forget that Turkey offered to "help" in case the 12th military base in Batumi resisted withdrawal .
    Armenian population with retract from parts of NK, but surely not move from Artsakh fully because the Russian interest is to have them there.

    It was a Muslim country to begin with. There are many historical faults from the USSR, but legally that land would have to be wrestled from Azerbaijan through sheer and utter destruction. It's doable, just not now.



    What do you have for details on the "Two Brigades"? Understand that yes there were two brigades and there are Ground Forces in both Gyumri and Yerevan but there is only enough manpower stationed there for one brigade (barely). One of my unresolved questions. Thanks
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:17 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    There is a mentality on this board that is reflected by libtards - they think Russia should be the ones to save everyone.  But then also shouldn't get involved at same time.

    You see, essentially is is a damned if you do and damned if you dont.  You can't win with these people.  But, they expose themselves for the Colts they are

    This mentality is just hate for Russia and Russians posing as do-gooderism. Russia is criticized for not being a knight in shining armour and risking
    a conflict with NATzO and looking bad to the whole world. When it manages to make the proper move at the proper time to secure a peace (deal
    or not, only facts on the ground matter) it is just engaged in opportunist gangsterism. This drivel is schizophrenic. But the clowns pushing it
    are not actually that brain damaged, it is just another form of anti-Russian propaganda.

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    Post  Vann7 Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:12 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:A very interesting post from the saker

    http://thesaker.is/understanding-the-outcome-of-the-war-for-nagorno-karabakh/

    The Saker wrote: (...)
    I am already getting hate mail from pseudo-Christian imbeciles who think that this is an Islam vs Christianity issue. I can’t even begin to put in words how kind of pseudo-Christian nonsense depresses me – when faced with such pretend “Christians” (“Soros Christianity”, I suppose!) I really feel like throwing in the towel and giving up.
    Frankly, I am ashamed and embarrassed by how terminally STUPID some (a lot>?!) of my “Christian” brothers are…
    (sorry, I had to get that off my chest)
    But no, I won’t do that. Why? Because the truth is worth suffering for. It is really that simple. At least for me. Yeah, I am naive, romantic and Pollyannish. But that’s me. They can’t change me and I refuse to cave in.
    My only loyalty is to Christ. Not to pretend “Christians”!
    Screw them! I have NO desire to change or join the herd.
    Hugs and cheers!



    It always amaze me ,how people can still listen to that fake "expert" [the saker] , that guy is the most retarded analyst that exist on the internet.. and the most crazy thing is that people pay that guy money for his non sense..  i could write a list of his completely wrong things he claimed ,that not only proof he is out of touch with reality , but also a complete fanatic ,but is hard to point exactly what he really believe..looks more like his website is a psyop disinfo operation and his website controlled by censorship police for just disagreements with him over any issue,since he apparently sell books with his non sense crap..  

    but lets start by exposing that dude..

    - he was during the ukraine war crying and yelling saying that putin abandoned ukraine ,because
    he did not invaded it to save those orthodox brothers.. lol1   and he did not allowed me to disagree with him..   basically he told putin was betraying russians for not interfering in ukraine.. Rolling Eyes
    and as much i dislike putin ,for being an complete idiot and being incompetent.. i have never accused him to be a traitor to russian people.. he is patriotic 100% president.. so credit to the things he did right.. so he probably was the best leader for leading russia in 2000 ,when he had to put order and return the trust of people to the government.. but his problems is not of loyalty or patriotism.. Putin
    problems are more about being an outdated leader ,and being completely clueless on how to fight back his enemies.. he saved russia from complete  collapse from 2000 to 2008 ,..so very cool he did that.. but "saving russia"  IS NOT ENOUGH..   Russia needs to become a very successful nation and create an alternative to the western world , to disband NATO and he is doing nothing . he is wasting a lot of money in total distractions that doesn't help russia in any way to be respected country or to attract nations from the west into the russian orbit.. this is very important for russia existence ,because the countries that putin fails to influence in europe ,will be the ones allied to Russian enemies and russia will have to fight them in a world war 3. it means that the more russia influence europe ,the more weaker nato will become.. and  without NATO ,the american empire collapse and will become a regional power ,like canada but with nukes. Russia will only be truly successful nation,
    when no longer depends on absolutely anything from the west.. don't depend on american internet, american computers ,american electronics or banking industry and not even depend on gas stations.. and become a truly independent nation ,self sufficient power , a true alternative to the western world.. this is how you defeat the western empire.. with leadership and success and a modern culture. Only china is moving in that direction , putin still unfornately is doubling down in russia future as a gas station. when china is completely moving away from oil energy and moving towards free clean energy.

    -The saker even claimed ,that the right thing for russia to do.. if attacked with nukes by americans
    is to choose love and sacrifice itself to humanity..  Shocked   Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes
     i mean how stupid the guy is?  Suspect
    this guy can't be serious is complete delusional , imagine russia sacrifice itself to isis ,allow alqaeda to over run syria ,then next armenia ,then next moscow ? with millions of isis terrorist.. to show love..  Laughing    that guy is complete nuts ,and is amazing how can anyone follow that guy ,he is incredibly naive and dumb and out of touch with reality..  he is a fraud 100% , because i don't think
    anyone can be so out of touch of reality for real..
    - he claims that russia is not facing a religious war.. that syria is not a religion war..  Laughing
    when this is exactly what president assad told  ,but he told it in a diplomatic way.. he told
    the muslim brotherhood ,political islam is terrorism.. and he is completely right and russia and syria
    are attacked for being secular nations.. that oppose radical islamization of nations.. which is what isis and alqaeda wants.. to transform syria and russia into a turk-saudi caliphate.. the muslim fight only for islam. money is a bonus ,but is conquering by force the world to islam.. this is what motivates them to join terrorist organizations..

    -he claimed that this conflict between armenia and azerbaijan ,is a "win for russia" and "Defeat by erdogan" .. do i need to continue? he is total delusional ,out of touch of reality , he don't understand neither islam ,neither christianity , he is a dinosaur in international politics.. sometimes he get some   things right .. but most times is totally out of touch of reality.

    -the saker.. defends islam as the "religion of peace" Rolling Eyes because he have many muslim friends that are very nice people.. Rolling Eyes i will not go there .. and he did not allow any discussion about religion on his website ,even less to say anything less than great about islam..

    And the conflict in armenia is a big win for azerbaijan and turkey and a major set back for russia ,not mentioning how putin got an egg on his face ,with the shutdown of their helicopter ,and this armenian conflict will signficantly damage russia image at the world arena.. thanks to this loss of territory of their major allies armenia ,even with russia help  ,now ukraine is planning to re-start the war ,following the example of aliev.. using the hundred of drones they got from turkey and israel.
    So be prepared.. because putin worse days are yet to come.. israel and erdogan are arming ukraine ,so they reverse the gains of donetsk and lugansk and this is very serious escalation ,an act of war , and only a complete fool as the saker is , will see Russia set back as a "victory" , now nato will only increase the pressure on russia using as example the extremely dissappointing performance of russia there.. and their air defenses.. that it was russia military who setup for them.. No   Do i think that ukraine have a chance to defeat russia? NO at all., but those drones israeli drones and turcanadian-euro drones can make it very very expensive any victory for russia , phyrric victory ,to defend donetsk ,in any new war , and they will lose a ton of equipment again if russia commit the same mistake they did in nagoro karabah conflict of not properly arming their backed fighters. this is not mentioning how venezuela could also be destroyed and..attacked by those s-300s there destroyed .. so this poor performance of russia in armenia ,will have long short and long terms cost to putin ,is going to encourage major new hostilities from russian enemies as erdogan is.. he even threatens putin openly on social media.. over crimea ,so how can anyone claim putin and erdogan are "friends".. turkey is enemy of russia and erdogan only takes advantage of putin that is so desperate for money ,that will sell anything for money to erdogan ,including his most advanced weapons and new stealth planes ,because erdogan needs since americans will not give it to them .

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:44 pm

    I don't agree that swapping favour from Armenia to Azerbaijan is a set-back for Russia as such. Not in the near term.

    Strategically, Russia won out of this situation

    But to think there will be no consequences is naive. Armenians will remember, other countries and peoples on the front-lines will be watching (Syria, Kurds, Abkhaz, Ossetians), and Turkey has gained influence in the Caucasus and a go-ahead for its plans to link to the Caspian and Central Asia. And to think that Turkey can somehow be managed, predicted or relied upon to pursue a friendly to Russia policy is also naive. For now, Turkey will be dependent on Russia's good graces mind you, as their link to Azerbaijan will go via a highway in Armenia guarded by Russian peacekeepers.

    On the whole, Russia won for now, but it harshly disappointed and humiliated its natural ally in the Caucasus by pressing it into near-capitulation rather than throwing it a lifeline, in return for the favour of other countries that have no desire for dependence on it (albeit, Azerbaijan never pursued a hostile policy to Moscow either)

    The Turks meanwhile, did not disappoint their fellow Muslim and Turkic ally.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:58 pm

    https://m.vz.ru/world/2020/11/12/1070326.html

    After the Mi-24 & its 2 pilots loss, Russia told the Azeris that their game is over & made an offer they couldn't refuse:


    https://youtu.be/Xr6PJbKNiSQ?t=1173


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:55 pm

    Looks like Ultron made a complete fool of himself:

    Politico (USA): Russia's victory in Nagorno-Karabakh is the EU's defeat

    Russia managed to make both Azerbaijan and Armenia attaining NATO/EU membership a virtual impossibility, but the useful idiots on this forum thought otherwise. Notice to the Chicken-Little's on this forum, you can now proceed to change your soiled diapers. Razz lol1

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:00 am

    flamming_python wrote:...But to think there will be no consequences is naive. Armenians will remember...

    Memory works both ways and Russia will certainly remember that their nominal ally expected them to fight and die for a territory that Armenians didn't even recognize while they were looking for a way to fuck Russia over in exchange for some pittance from Brussels



    flamming_python wrote:...other countries and peoples on the front-lines will be watching (Syria, Kurds, Abkhaz, Ossetians)...

    Syrians, Abkhaz and Ossetians are loyal allies with good track record

    Kurds are hostile swindling dickheads that hold no importance



    flamming_python wrote:...Turkey has gained influence in the Caucasus...

    Turkey was allowed to gain a measure of influence on the count of it's good behavior and as a plug to keep EU influence out

    Like I said before Turkey is a nuisance, EU is a problem



    flamming_python wrote:...it harshly disappointed and humiliated its natural ally in the Caucasus by pressing it into near-capitulation rather than throwing it a lifeline...

    Soviet natural ally, not Russian (we know how Armenians honored that commitment)

    And Russia didn't just throw them a lifeline, it saved their worthless ungrateful asses from extinction

    Also that humiliation is well earned and long overdue



    flamming_python wrote:...Azerbaijan never pursued a hostile policy to Moscow either...

    A smart approach that Armenia should learn from and learn well



    flamming_python wrote:...The Turks meanwhile, did not disappoint their fellow Muslim and Turkic ally....

    Good for them

    And that's almost all they out of this



    flamming_python wrote:...Strategically, Russia won out of this situation...

    The only relevant information

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:05 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Looks like Ultron made a complete fool of himself:

    Politico (USA): Russia's victory in Nagorno-Karabakh is the EU's defeat

    Russia managed to make both Azerbaijan and Armenia attaining NATO/EU membership a virtual impossibility, but the useful idiots on this forum thought otherwise. Notice to the Chicken-Little's on this forum, you can now proceed to change your soiled diapers. Razz lol1

    Here's a link to original:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-win-eu-loss-in-nagorno-karabakh/

    Just like I said this is about dealing with priority problem (EU) not side issue (Turkey)

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    Post  Odin of Ossetia Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:29 am




    "PapaDragon" do not mix up the Alawites with the Syrians.

    Also, sheltering Nazi German war criminals is not really being a loyal ally, Alawites need Russia only to maintain themselves in power in Syria.






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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:32 am

    Armenian Parliament Fails to Discuss PM's Resignation After Nagorno-Karabakh Ceasefire
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdgxhtav2e25a8.cloudfront.net%2Fblkbullet1.gif&t=1605231004&ymreqid=204399c7-9282-653d-2f3c-440197014e00&sig=mGPboZArmenian Police Make Arrests at Protest Against Karabakh Peace Deal
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdgxhtav2e25a8.cloudfront.net%2Fblkbullet1.gif&t=1605231004&ymreqid=204399c7-9282-653d-2f3c-440197014e00&sig=mGPboZErdogan Says Turkey, Russia to Monitor Karabakh Ceasefire
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdgxhtav2e25a8.cloudfront.net%2Fblkbullet1.gif&t=1605231004&ymreqid=204399c7-9282-653d-2f3c-440197014e00&sig=mGPboZ'They Are Scared': Armenians Flee Istanbul Amid Anger Over Nagorno-Karabakh
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdgxhtav2e25a8.cloudfront.net%2Fblkbullet1.gif&t=1605231004&ymreqid=204399c7-9282-653d-2f3c-440197014e00&sig=mGPboZYerevan Reels From Defeat in Nagorno-Karabakh
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdgxhtav2e25a8.cloudfront.net%2Fblkbullet1.gif&t=1605231004&ymreqid=204399c7-9282-653d-2f3c-440197014e00&sig=mGPboZSouthern Gas Corridor Project From Azerbaijan Into Europe About to Come on Stream
    Western reaction: https://korrespondent.net/world/4294383-porazhenye-zapada-myrovaia-pressa-o-myre-v-karabakhe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmAs6rVxgk4
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    Post  Backman Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:33 am



    «««ANATꙮLY KARLIN»»»
    @akarlin88
    ·
    Nov 10

    Incidentally. While Armenian elites were "building democracy", "fighting corruption" and putting pronouns in their Twitter bios, the Azeris were training mountaineering special units to infiltrate behind Armenian lines and reclaim lost territory. Wokeness loses you wars.

    Cool

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    Post  Backman Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:36 am

    Interview of Aliyev 10 minutes in. Vice is back to its roots. Sending small women into far off war zones

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:58 am

    Backman wrote:Interview of Aliyev 10 minutes in. Vice is back to its roots. Sending small women into far off war zones

    My reaction when anyone posts Vice related content:
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Tenor

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:35 am

    I do not agree that immediate problem is EU or Eskimo or Amazonian tribes, for Russia or Iran, in Caucases or ME. It is the Automan Turks. Here their FM, Cavushoglu threatens Armenians, at a time, when both sides need to tone down the rhetoric. With this Automan genocide of Armenians, they need to STFU. Throwing tomatoes at their train, through Nakichevan. Will not get through.


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/11/12/turkey-warns-armenia-against-breaking-nagorno-karabakh-truce


    Here Ozio Cavushoglu makes phone call.


    https://youtu.be/qmsbP13xu6k

    The Automan Turk need psychiatrist, to stop avalanches.


    https://youtu.be/qLrnkK2YEcE

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:53 am

    I don't agree that swapping favour from Armenia to Azerbaijan is a set-back for Russia as such. Not in the near term.

    Seems to me that Russia has tried its best to be neutral in this.

    The Azeris attacked territory held by Armenia but they did not receive nor did they ask for any help from Russia... how does Russia become the bad guy in this?

    It sounds like the Armenians refused to send their own troops into the disputed region so why would they expect Russia to go in there.

    If anything it would be the people in NK that are pissed, but the question is where do they think the problem comes from... Russia or Armenia?

    On the whole, Russia won for now, but it harshly disappointed and humiliated its natural ally in the Caucasus by pressing it into near-capitulation rather than throwing it a lifeline, in return for the favour of other countries that have no desire for dependence on it (albeit, Azerbaijan never pursued a hostile policy to Moscow either)

    Russia could have humiliated Armenia by ignoring the Armenian government and just moved in and taken full control of Armenia and NK and ignored what Armenia or NK said or wanted.

    I think they showed great restraint and respect and let their allies direct their intervention efforts, but Armenia seemed to be in denial about the actual situation on the ground.

    It could perhaps be comparable to Georgia attacking South Ossetia and invading parts but not all and then the US coming in and freezing borders and occupation areas and putting peacekeepers in South Ossetia to ensure new borders and agreed corridors of communication and trade are assured.

    The difference of course is that Georgia was stupid enough to attack the VDV peacekeepers in South Ossetia so there was no way Russia was going to let Georgia take any new areas of land at all.

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:53 am


    Some delicious salt straight from the DC:

    Failure in Armenian conflict should cause American soul-searching

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/failure-in-armenian-conflict-should-cause-american-soul-searching/ar-BB1aXu8t?

    It took Russian troops just hours to spread out across Nagorno-Karabakh after Azerbaijani leader Ilham Aliyev and Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan agreed to a ceasefire on Nov. 9, ending the 45-day war between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region. The ability to station troops in Nagorno-Karabakh fulfilled an outcome which the Kremlin had sought since the early 1990s.......



    This part here though is indicative:

    ...However, the Minsk Group agreed that these would neither come from the Minsk Group chairs nor neighbors — in other words, no Russians, Americans, French, or Turks. Instead, there was broad consensus that Scandinavian troops would separate the combatants....

    Methinks that Russia was not too thrilled about prospect of some EU/US ski-jumping hippie proxies strolling around in their neighborhood based on some Yeltsin-era Minsk "Group" nonsense...



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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:50 am

    Second battalion of Russian peacekeepers marching to Goris

    https://tass.com/defense/1223209
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:26 pm


    This map should explain why Azerbaijan will not be pulling out of ceasefire any time soon (or ever)

    Pay attention to long blue line at the bottom, that's Nakhichevan corridor that connects Azerbaijan and Turkey, something that Azerbaijan was only dreaming about but never thought it could actually get (not without massive bloodbath anyway)

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 31 Word-image

    So to put it simply:

    - Azerbaijan gets everything except Nagorno Karabah

    - Nagorno Karabah gets protection from Russia and corridor to Armenia

    - Azerbaijan doesn't have to exert itself taking over (and ethnically cleansing) Nagorno Karabah (with all bad PR that it entails)

    - Azerbaijan gets transport corridor to Turkey which translates into huge amount of money and infinitum and loses motivation for further war because if they pull out of ceasefire they automatically lose access to this corridor

    - Turkey is stopped in it's tracks because now their main ally has no more interests in taking part in future wars against Armenia

    - Russia controls Nagorno Karabah and more importantly Lachin and Nakhichevan corridors, FSB is the organization that will be controlling those two absolutely vital corridors

    Outcome: Turkey pacified, EU and USA cut off permanently, Azerbaijan and Armenia become glued to Russia, Russia runs the show

    Pretty smooth if I do say so myself thumbsup



    Saker explained it in detail (ignore rants about Jews):
    https://thesaker.is/understanding-the-outcome-of-the-war-for-nagorno-karabakh/



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