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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:59 am

    Oh this is glorious.

    Of course radio bullshit Europe will blame Russia for their own downfall.

    Lol
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:11 am


    It will be morning soon and entire Armenia will wake up and hear the good news

    Once they are done cannibalizing each other they should remember that Russia just saved them from capitulation and bought them 5 years of (unearned) peace and protection which they should use to get their heads out of their asses, start buying lots of Russian weapons (real ones) and get ready for what comes next because Azeris will not be satisfied for too long considering that they were on the path to total victory before Russia stepped in

    And above all this time they should definitely NOT be a pain in the ass to one sole nation that happens to still give a shit about what happens to Armenians and that can save their carcasses

    Or they can just redo the whole "Fuck Russia, we love EU!!!!" thing and get slaughtered, either option works for Russia




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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:48 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Oh this is glorious.

    Of course radio bullshit Europe will blame Russia for their own downfall.

    Lol

    They can blame Russia until they turn blue and their dicks fall off. The boy who cried wolf syndrome is starting to catch up to
    western lie factory morons.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    It will be morning soon and entire Armenia will wake up and hear the good news

    Once they are done cannibalizing each other they should remember that Russia just saved them from capitulation and bought them 5 years of (unearned) peace and protection which they should use to get their heads out of their asses, start buying lots of Russian weapons (real ones) and get ready for what comes next because Azeris will not be satisfied for too long considering that they were on the path to total victory before Russia stepped in

    And above all this time they should definitely NOT be a pain in the ass to one sole nation that happens to still give a shit about what happens to Armenians and that can save their carcasses

    Or they can just redo the whole "Fuck Russia, we love EU!!!!" thing and get slaughtered, either option works for Russia

    A lot of them, likely the majority, want to do just that. The ones that supported the terrorists in 1977 and drink from the
    same bowl of fetid koolaid.

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:07 am


    Been looking around and apparently the war stopped dead the moment that Russian Mi-24 was shot down, looks like Azeris didn't want to redo the whole Turkish experience (fact that they profited big time already helped decision a little and Russian heavy bombers getting scrambled over Caspian helped a lot)

    Also peace deal gets automatically extended after 5 years unless one side notifies about intent to pull out 6 months in advance

    Local economy and transport will be supervised by FSB

    All in all Armenians got lucky, let's see if they will get smart as well




    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:24 am

    The deal is more good for Azeri then Armenia since it lets the Azeri's hold onto all areas it captured. Azerbaijan will be happy with this, they will just come for the rest at another time.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:21 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Been looking around and apparently the war stopped dead the moment that Russian Mi-24 was shot down, looks like Azeris didn't want to redo the whole Turkish experience (fact that they profited big time already helped decision a little and Russian heavy bombers getting scrambled over Caspian helped a lot)

    Also peace deal gets automatically extended after 5 years unless one side notifies about intent to pull out 6 months in advance

    Local economy and transport will be supervised by FSB

    All in all Armenians got lucky, let's see if they will get smart as well





    We will have to see which are the repayments and concessions that the azeri will have to do to Russia...

    Maybe it will include also Azerbaijan getting out of Turkish influence?

    EDIT:

    Interesting article by the saker.

    http://thesaker.is/update-on-the-nagorno-karabakh-conflict/

    By the way, according to him, the Russians are pretty pissed off with the armenians


    The Armenians probably have realized two things: a) the US cannot help them b) their public image in Russia is pretty bad. On this page: https://vz.ru/vote/result/1820/, Vzgliad, a popular and moderately patriotic website asked this question in a survey: “Which of the parties to the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh is morally right in your eyes?“. The result? Armenia 33.06 and Azerbaijan 48.12. The arrogant and openly hostile attitude of the Armenians since 2018 has hurt them tremendously and they might be coming back to their senses. If Pashinian is removed, he did lose this war, after all, that would help a lot.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:19 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Been looking around and apparently the war stopped dead the moment that Russian Mi-24 was shot down, looks like Azeris didn't want to redo the whole Turkish experience (fact that they profited big time already helped decision a little and Russian heavy bombers getting scrambled over Caspian helped a lot)

    Also peace deal gets automatically extended after 5 years unless one side notifies about intent to pull out 6 months in advance

    Local economy and transport will be supervised by FSB

    All in all Armenians got lucky, let's see if they will get smart as well





    Na, the Mi-24 was apparently escorting the VDV on their way to NKR

    So in other words the treaty had already been agreed upon by that time, if maybe not yet publicized
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:46 am

    Pashinyan puts the blame for the defeat on the army: I signed a disadvantageous peace on their advice, they told me they had no options to continue the war.

    What a coward!

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    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:17 am

    Good to hear the news of  ceasefire. Did the deal come before Russian brigade started marching or after ? Well I heard no news of the deal , before marching started. Only after helicopter shot down and marching continued.

    Still, this deal, regardless of it's merits, stops the fighting. The  peacekeepers ( peacemakers), made sure of that. The avalanche stopped for now. Momentum ceased. But not before it buried Hadrut and Shushi. Something Armenians can not be happy about.

    Still, good idea to give Azeri districts back. And I think Azeris should give Hadrut back. I think that Azeris only own 30% of  Artsakh. The population of Azeris before wars there, was 30%. But I think now they hold more like 40 to 50 %.

    Now that the chickens have arrived, they can lay the egg. And hatch the egg. Since the Armenians will sacrifice and eat the Pash chicken. So Russians in good position. They can run Artsakh as a protected Russian region.

    As some have said, the Azeri and Turk backers, will probably continue with war, at future date. Because without war, Turks loose reason for being there. No chance of Automan empire. For this reason Armenians need to be ready.

    This war showed the effectiveness of drones, in SEAD and anti/ armour  and anti-personnel role.  It is not surprising. Radar is becoming less important. Optics and passive detection more important. And although some blame can be attributed to operators of these AD  systems. We need to recognise that if such systems need such a high degree of skill , under battle conditions. Then they need to be simplified or automated.

    As well as effective AD, that Armenians can buy from Russia. I think Russia can help with alternative tech to fight the drone threat. I mentioned low RCS, hunter manned planes. EMP.  Blinding laser against optics.Up armouring vehicles and bunkers, with anti- drone nets.................. Electronic triangulation of source signal  and BM destruction........



    Let's hope for sensible land swap........ Artsakh part of Armenia.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:40 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Na, the Mi-24 was apparently escorting the VDV on their way to NKR

    So in other words the treaty had already been agreed upon by that time, if maybe not yet publicized

    And just like the idiot Georgians they decided to test Russian resolve with a provocation on peacekeepers. Yeah, that Iskander on Baku makes a lot of sense now.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:42 am

    Regular wrote:Azeris are making fun out of Russian helicopter and saying they will bring down more of them online..

    They celebrate their victory in Moscow and Petersburg streets..

    How stupid absolutely retarded is this conflict? Russian peacekeepers should glass the whole region

    I don't like pulling the i told you so...

    BUT I TOLD YOU SO.

    One should never put for tomorrow, what it can do the present day with less effort. Now in order to "glass the region", Russia has a worse footing and will be forced to unnecessary bloodshed in Northern Azerbaijan. Way to lose a gold opportunity;

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    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:43 am

    Where are the pictures from the Iskander explosion from Baku?
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:46 am

    nomadski wrote:Good to hear the news of  ceasefire. Did the deal come before Russian brigade started marching or after ? Well I heard no news of the deal , before marching started. Only after helicopter shot down and marching continued.

    Still, this deal, regardless of it's merits, stops the fighting. The  peacekeepers ( peacemakers), made sure of that. The avalanche stopped for now. Momentum ceased. But not before it buried Hadrut and Shushi. Something Armenians can not be happy about.

    Still, good idea to give Azeri districts back. And I think Azeris should give Hadrut back. I think that Azeris only own 30% of  Artsakh. The population of Azeris before wars there, was 30%. But I think now they hold more like 40 to 50 %.

    Now that the chickens have arrived, they can lay the egg. And hatch the egg. Since the Armenians will sacrifice and eat the Pash chicken. So Russians in good position. They can run Artsakh as a protected Russian region.

    As some have said, the Azeri and Turk backers, will probably continue with war, at future date. Because without war, Turks loose reason for being there. No chance of Automan empire. For this reason Armenians need to be ready.

    This war showed the effectiveness of drones, in SEAD and anti/ armour  and anti-personnel role.  It is not surprising. Radar is becoming less important. Optics and passive detection more important. And although some blame can be attributed to operators of these AD  systems. We need to recognise that if such systems need such a high degree of skill , under battle conditions. Then they need to be simplified or automated.

    As well as effective AD, that Armenians can buy from Russia. I think Russia can help with alternative tech to fight the drone threat. I mentioned low RCS, hunter manned planes. EMP.  Blinding laser against optics.Up armouring vehicles and bunkers, with anti- drone nets.................. Electronic triangulation of source signal  and BM destruction........



    Let's hope for sensible land swap........ Artsakh part of Armenia.

    Actually it is the contrary. Optronic detection was proven problematic without Radar, Turkey pinged almost all ARM AD while not being in theatre. That's what radar detection is from the get go. Optronic is like a narrow angle on a sight. it allows you to pin point, but you cannot do optronic ISR, otherwise you get shot out of the sky.

    Other issues involve density of AA network and portable IR solutions for drones like Bayraktar;

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:52 am

    Azerbaijan doesn't have only TB2. Thry also have israeli ELINT drones that can locate armenian SAM. Il 2 were also used to track those AD systems.

    TB2 are then sebt at those locations.

    Armenian AD is not dense. It's Osa working alone or by 2.

    Thrir AD got anhilated. That's why they had to stop fighting. Azeri have total control of the airspace.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:59 am

    Sending the VDV as a peacekeeping force is a bit... weird.

    Thing about the VDV is - they can get to any place, real quick. Which I guess is what Russia is betting on.

    The peacekeepers in Serbia/Kosovo were VDV and the peacekeepers in South Ossetia were VDV as well... I am sensing a pattern really.

    Russia really outplayed itself here. Grandmaster Putin and so on. Never knew it was possible to checkmate yourself in chess with your own pieces, but apparently it is.

    Armenia elected a pro EU pro west guy... should Russia have invaded and taken over?

    Armenias problem is isolation from Russia because they are surrounded by Turkey and Azerbaijan and Iran... perhaps making friends with the US is their long term solution... the US will love a base so close to Iran but they could only access it through Georgia and Turkey... the latter less than reliable but I am sure Georgia will love becoming important again.

    Since I am fair guy, I must point out what a moronic thing to say...

    Waste of time trying to tell Vann that everything in the world is not Putins fault...

    The fact that Armenia didn't ask for any help means nothing... Putin was supposed to save the day without being asked...

    Armenia is already turning towards the West, Radio Free Europe in Armenia just got trashed and online liberals and commies are blaming Russia, it's all over folks

    But Russia does not run Radio Free Europe... America does... so doesn't that mean if they trashed them they are turning against the US and the west?

    And above all this time they should definitely NOT be a pain in the ass to one sole nation that happens to still give a shit about what happens to Armenians and that can save their carcasses

    Or they can just redo the whole "Fuck Russia, we love EU!!!!" thing and get slaughtered, either option works for Russia

    Dude... are you going to burst into flames or get hit by lightening or something... or has someone hijacked your account....  Twisted Evil

    Perhaps if Azerbaijan and Armenia will get off their high horses and communicate properly perhaps with Russian mediation in future any border changes they might want to make can be made with mutually agreed land swaps instead of bloodshed and violence.

    Many can say Armenia deserved this because they looked west like so many other leaders have but at the end of the day this was a violent unprovoked invasion... look at all the shit that happened to Saddam and Iraq when he invaded Kuwaite... but that only resulted in international action because the US feared he might get too much control of too much oil and become too powerful and start to threaten Saudi Arabia.

    Talk of needing better air defences is amusing.... they could easily just invest in large amounts of attack drones to respond in kind... Azerbaijan and indeed Turkey is no safer from drone attack than Armenia or NK is.
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:44 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The deal is more good for Azeri then Armenia since it lets the Azeri's hold onto all areas it captured. Azerbaijan will be happy with this, they will just come for the rest at another time.

    That's correct.. this is a cease of fire for regrouping and rearming ,so those praising putin
    cease of fires , of master yoda Putin in moscow , this are done from a position of defeat of
    armenia AND Russia.  Anyone that thinks , it was only armenia the one defeated ,are in delusion.
    This is a continuation of NATO iron fence around Russia project , this is why they are in afghanistan and pakistan ,to have a place to retreat , they are planning major wars in central asia ,but before those wars start.. turkey needs to defeat Armenia.. check.. already and use this victories to encourage
    a muslim alliance in all central asia ,a new ottoman empire in central asia ,with nato arming them.

    i think people don't understand how serious blow this is to Russia . the biggest loser is not armenia,
    they only lose a small land.. but russia now incompetence in defending armenia ,have made helped
    ERdogan popularity to rise more than ever..   So consider this cease of fire between Putin and Azerbaijan and turkey  ,a modern version of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.. which allowed hitler and staling to rearm and regroup for a war they knew was going to happen..

    Russia during soviet union lost 30 millions of citizens ,because they did not stop hitler early..when he was weak and i find it hard to believe the russian military have not warned putin about this , that if war can't be avoided with turkey ,they better do it earlier than years later and not when they are fully armed with drones and even with nuclear weapons they will eventually get from nato ,israel or  pakistan or saudi arabia ,that they suggest already have .. this is because desperate anglozionist empires observing their empires falling and economy collapsing will do desperate things.. from biowars like covid19 to nuclear wars ,and arm turkey and those central muslim nations with them.



    ,so what will be next?  very likely turkey base in azerbaijan ,and later followed by americans bases with nato airdefenses there.  Very Happy  And the the west help turkey restart the ottoman
    empire..  turkmenistan ,uzbekitan all the turko countries united ,including kazakistan against russia ,
    they have a chance to get it , because putin defeat in armenia (the way muslim in the world will see it) and the way it is ,will only sky rocket the sales of Bayraktar drones ,knowing they can stop Russia.

    they could also restart the war in syria , and this time with bigger swarm of drones .  

    Hopefully this will put and end in this forum of the cheerleaders of putin and russian air defenses..
    i was warning back years ago ,that russia endless war simulations were all wrong ,because those s-400s will be useless , in the war.. as they were in syria and armenia that played absolutely no role.

    NATO for many years have been pushing swarm of drones as their #1 tactic to defeat russia and this is the reason why so many tor and pantsir and s-300s were defeated in armenia , because russian defense tactics and air defenses are completely outdated for modern warfare..  it just recently just weeks ago ,that Russia began to modify their pantsirs to have mini missiles..to give them a bit better chance against swarm of drones. Neutral   but all this are just bandages to major deficiency in russia air defenses.  people ignore than in syria , Russia have been largely ineffective countering israel small attacks.. the success rate of russia vs israel minidrones , is on the 40% up to 60% with just a dozen of missile attacks.. so imagine how it will be if israel or nato was attacking russian base.. it will be completely destroyed with cheap combination of loitering munition and modern israeli drones  ,just
    attacks of 50 to 100 israeli loitering munition is all that israel needs to overwhelm those s-400s..

    Russia military will sooner or later understand how obsolete are their tactics . they will get their long range defenses destroyed first by cheap drones ,that they will provide to terrorist.. and once those long range air defenses taken down is when nato f-35s will enter into combat to hit those short range air defenses.. the only defense russia have is their nuclear deterrence to stop nato and hypersonic missiles ,from such a war.. but if NATO use azerbaijan ,or any other central asia muslim country to fight russia by proxy  ,then they will be doomed ,because they will not have propper air defenses to counter what nato can do ,the big numbers of swarm of drones they can pull against russia.. and neither russia have enough conventional missiles to bomb all turkey or beat all terrorist they will face in central asia , and putin is a teddy bear weak president that will not have stomach to use nuclear weapons..

    i predict the begining of the fall of russia ,when kazakistan falls to a radical pro erdogan president.. and turkey setup bases there with drones.. thats when master yoda putin will know he is check mated..


    because it will incite many muslim all over the world to join the fight against russia. Is a religious war  how nato will defeat russia without them being in the front line directly firing the bullets.

    what russia needs is energy weapons ,mobile laser cannons to defeat drones and rail guns too ,
    powerful electromagnetic anti air artillery might work too , surprisingly those t-14 armatas radars
    could be very useful to improve the eyes on the sky and provide precise location of those loitering munition and swarm of drones.. if i was in charge of russia military ,will demand to expand that afganit active defenses to counter from 100 meter distance those drones and their small missiles.
    those t-14 could turn become far more useful as mini air defenses,than to hit light armor and soldiers.. ,because those soviet era tanks can do the job for light armor and soft targets.. it looks that the days of heavy tank duels are over and from now to the future the wars will be ruled by drones and energy weapons. Russia also need low earth space orbit bombers to hit satellites and dominate nato high altitude drones. the future of war will be nano wars.. and those rocket propulsion
    missile interception are obsolete for the job today..for major drones wars..

    but offensive will be important too , to sit idle taking hits and not fighting back will not work..
    russian airforce need to hit those military bases that their enemies use to attack russian army.. ,because what russia have been doing  in armenia and syria of just passively intercept and nothing else , to passively wait those drones to hit them ,their defenses ,their helicopters and positions and allow azerbaijan or turkey to target russian military day and night..


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:20 am; edited 2 times in total
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:00 am

    @ KoTeMoRe

    As ISOS said, the Azeris had help in locating the AD system. By Elint and sattelite and Turk AWACS ground search Radar. And Radar jamming. One LORA missile hit, most probably by sattelite location. The actual targeting was optic. And in case of one drone, Radar homing.  What I should have made clear, is that use of Radar guided weapon, against low RCS drone or plane, is proven more limited. But against metal targets, is still effective.

    @ Vann7

    Drones are mostly useful against weak opponents. Not peer opponents. If Armenia had invested minimal amounts, in drone protection, it would not be big problem. The entire system can be disabled by a couple of BM strikes. Or by counter strike by drone or plane. The Armenian defence was weak. Drones are no magic bullet. But agree that diversification is needed.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:21 am

    Isos wrote:Azerbaijan doesn't have only TB2. Thry also have israeli ELINT drones that can locate armenian SAM. Il 2 were also used to track those AD systems.

    TB2 are then sebt at those locations.

    Armenian AD is not dense. It's Osa working alone or by 2.

    Thrir AD got anhilated. That's why they had to stop fighting. Azeri have total control of the airspace.

    SAR mapping isn't done by Hermes. It's done by other means like EW. And guess what was flying every single day at the Arm border?

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    Post  Nemo Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:22 am

    Russia just won again. Prevented the collapse of Armenia, does not let the Azeris have a complete victory, ran with "Pussyani" and west friends of power and deploys troops in order to effectively block the advance of neo-ottomans for 5 years that are basically going to be forever.

    In addition, Russia armed himself with diplomatic capital to start running with the Turks in northern Syria and to start putting pressure on the American military presence in the east. I think that soon we will see a major operation there.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:37 am

    Nemo wrote:Russia just won again. Prevented the collapse of Armenia, does not let the Azeris have a complete victory, ran with "Pussyani" and west friends of power and deploys troops in order to effectively block the advance of neo-ottomans for 5 years that are basically going to be forever.

    In addition, Russia armed himself with diplomatic capital to start running with the Turks in northern Syria and to start putting pressure on the American military presence in the east. I think that soon we will see a major operation there.

    The collapse of Armenia? Azeri wasn't going to invade Armenia....

    Azeri still got a major win and they will be back for the rest. Azeri is the winner in this war.

    Five years isn't forever, Azeri will build up and get ready in those five years.

    Azeri got past the mountains, this was the main problem holding them up on stage two of the offensive, they will not have to deal with them thus their advance will be far more devastating.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:40 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Nemo wrote:Russia just won again. Prevented the collapse of Armenia, does not let the Azeris have a complete victory, ran with "Pussyani" and west friends of power and deploys troops in order to effectively block the advance of neo-ottomans for 5 years that are basically going to be forever.

    In addition, Russia armed himself with diplomatic capital to start running with the Turks in northern Syria and to start putting pressure on the American military presence in the east. I think that soon we will see a major operation there.

    The collapse of Armenia? Azeri wasn't going to invade Armenia....

    Azeri still got a major win and they will be back for the rest. Azeri is the winner in this war.

    Five years isn't forever, Azeri will build up and get ready in those five years.

    Azeri got past the mountains, this was the main problem holding them up on stage two of the offensive, they will not have to deal with them thus their advance will be far more devastating.

    The peace agreement auto resumes after five years. Azerbaijan will have to attack Russian forces directly if they attack in five years.

    And we know what happened when Georgia did that.

    The agreement stipulates that they are there for five years till one side or the other leaves and or agreements are made between the two. And we all know that will never happen.

    I mean, sure Azerbaijan can attack all 2000 of those Russian units. But then what? Azerbaijan knows they are dead meat and no preparation would be enough for them to deal with Russia's wrath - especially how they can level the country without even entering it.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:43 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Nemo wrote:Russia just won again. Prevented the collapse of Armenia, does not let the Azeris have a complete victory, ran with "Pussyani" and west friends of power and deploys troops in order to effectively block the advance of neo-ottomans for 5 years that are basically going to be forever.

    In addition, Russia armed himself with diplomatic capital to start running with the Turks in northern Syria and to start putting pressure on the American military presence in the east. I think that soon we will see a major operation there.

    The collapse of Armenia? Azeri wasn't going to invade Armenia....

    Azeri still got a major win and they will be back for the rest. Azeri is the winner in this war.

    Five years isn't forever, Azeri will build up and get ready in those five years.

    Azeri got past the mountains, this was the main problem holding them up on stage two of the offensive, they will not have to deal with them thus their advance will be far more devastating.

    If they touch Stepanakert now that Russian peacekeepers are there, they will see Russian tanks just outside Baku (ask Saakashvili for advice on the matter).

    Until now Russia only acted as a mediator and was not directly involved in the conflict.

    I want to see, however, what will be the price of the reparation for the mi24 and the 2 russian losses.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:44 am

    Yes but they can also before six months go "Sorry we aren't doing this anymore".

    At that stage Russian forces will leave, there is some confusion. Russia will only be there on as both parties agree to the deal.

    It isn't going to enforce a one-sided peace deal. Maaaaaaybe they would if Armenia makes them a greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat deal but that's it.
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:45 am


    @ Vann7

    Drones are mostly useful against weak opponents. Not peer opponents. If Armenia had invested minimal amounts, in drone protection, it would not be big problem. The entire system can be disabled by a couple of BM strikes. Or by counter strike by drone or plane. The Armenian defence was weak. Drones are no magic bullet. But agree that diversification is needed.
    [/quote]

    and who setup those armenian air defenses?  aliens did it ?
    it was russia dude. russian army , what they did to defend armenia including in nagorno karabah
    was defeated.. just look at syria.. who did you think setup syrian air defenses?  martians?
    it was russia dude.. and in syria israel can easily penetrate russia air defenses even with s-300s
    at syrian positions.. if israel fire 12 missiles at syria .. 4-6 of them enter and hit the intended targets..
    so having less than 95% interception rate doesn't work for russia..  They could afford the humiliation of syria ,because is not their army.. doh.. but they can't afford such kind of humiliation if it was russian soldiers lives ,the ones that gets killed.. this will only provoke a major rebelion of the russian military against putin ,which will be a good thing ,so he finally kicked from power and the military get a true leader in place.

    So don't be naive.. russia was helping armenia ,including in nagorno karabah.. and this is not about pasha but about russia image in the world.. there are tons of videos of pantsirs and tors defeated and s-300 too.. even russia did not question the lost of s-300s during the first week of the war. russia even lost iskanders too ,bombed by those "only useful against third world countries drones"
    all this destruction of russia best air defenses is a major promotional video for erdogan ottoman empire dreams and major recruitment of terrorist campaign for muslim around the world.. he could raise 20k  thousand of new alqaeda terrorist with every s-300 ,tor , pantsir of russian plane defeated.

    is simple mathematics , if a russian soldier have only 5 bullets to defend against terrorist.. the best he can do is kill 5 terrorist.. but if 5 + 1 terrorist attack the soldier ,the last one will kill the russian soldier,because he will be out of bullets.. so all that nato/turkey/israel needs to do , in the most extreme events. that their drones very bad ,and electronic warfare very bad and tactics very bad.. not covering their drones hugging terrain , is to use more drones than russia have missiles.  nato latest videos of how to defeat s-400s use swarm of drones..
    so you are incorrect.. they have been for more than a decade training for that..with swarm of drones.. and what you saw in syria against russia military base was just only a test.. of nato on russia air defense.. using swarm of garage made drones with advanced electronics inside.. drones autonomous ,electronic hacking proof according to russia , and with 100km range..  they were seeking to test how many drones russia can handle at same time.. and with just 50 drones ,if they manage to get close to the fence of russian base.. then is a failure.. because nato in just 1 bomber can pull more than a hundred of mini drones and they have hundreds of bombers.. so nato can pull easily thousands of drones attacks on russian base.. with just 10x bombers and they have hundreds of them.. in short russia air defenses are totally improper for the job , not mentioning how expensive is to fire hundreds missiles.   Russia need mobile lasers armed infantry vehicles.. and this is what israel and nato are doing.. and electromagnetic pulse cannons and rail guns..  they should configure their armatas with t-14s aesa radars armed with 57mm cannons as drones interceptors.. the return of anti air artillery ,but with automatic radar guidance for interception of drones.  s-300s and s400s ,neither those pantsirs or tors are not very efficient versus drones wars.. as israel and turkey have shown.. in syria ,lybia and armenian conflict.. a cheap drone end destroying a million dollar pantsir defense.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:02 pm; edited 3 times in total

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