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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:26 pm

    Armenian wrote:He seems quite worried to me. I think Putin made some kind of deal with Erdoğan and decided to sacrifice Armenians. Not that it makes any sense but Russia is clearly not willing to do anything to help Armenia. Azerbaijan on the other hand is trying to create narrative that missiles are fired from Armenia.

    Let's defer to Tony Stark to respond to this one...
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 Ab124ba6732890ab94068f767587ee80
    Armenian
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    Post  Armenian Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:29 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    By your logic Crimea is occupied as well? No, its people living in their historical lands and everybody here knows it.

    Thinking that it's about Karabakh is extremely naive. It's about wiping out all Armenians from the region to create Turkic empire. We all know Erdoğan and we all know what he wants.

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 Fb_img10
    medo
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    Post  medo Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:02 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    Artzakh is Armenian land for more than 2500 years. Communists under Stalin stolen this Armenian land and give it to Azerbaijan. It is Azerbaijan who is occupying stolen land. Azerbaijan should return stolen land to the real owners. You could not be an occupier on your own land. You could only be an owner.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:13 pm

    Did Armenia recognize Crimea as Russian though?  Because if not, then the favor may be returned and Russia didn't bother recognizing Karabakh.

    I think because land is disputed, Russia won't help. But if Armenia proper gets hit, well....

    The anti Russian nonsense Armenia pushed for a bit there may be coming home to roost. Cause their new US and EU partners don't seem to be helping either.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    medo
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    Post  medo Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:13 pm

    Armenian wrote:Pashinyan just called all people served in army in the last year. He stated that it's not about NKR anymore and there is a real danger of a new Armenian genocide.

    He seems quite worried to me. I think Putin made some kind of deal with Erdoğan and decided to sacrifice Armenians. Not that it makes any sense but Russia is clearly not willing to do anything to help Armenia. Azerbaijan on the other hand is trying to create narrative that missiles are fired from Armenia.

    The purpose is clear. Attacking Armenia.

    Some people here might find this exaggerated but I think we are really on our own against Turks. Land inversion to Armenia is real possibility.

    Not only Russia but the whole world is watching Armenians to be massacred again. In the 21st century.

    Putin didn't make any deal with Erdogan. Since Turkey and Azerbaijan start this war, Putin didn't speak a word neither with Aliev neither with Erdogan. Russia will not give Armenia to Turkey, the same as will not give Belarus to Poland and Crimea to Ukraine. They are strategicaly too important for Russia. It is on Russia to decide what to do and when to do as they also have responsibility not to start nuclear WW3. You have to know, that this is US made trap for both Russia and Iran and Russia know that well.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:21 pm

    medo wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    Artzakh is Armenian land for more than 2500 years. Communists under Stalin stolen this Armenian land and give it to Azerbaijan. It is Azerbaijan who is occupying stolen land. Azerbaijan should return stolen land to the real owners. You could  not be an occupier on your own land. You could only be an owner.

    Ah if that's the standard we are going by....then The Kuril Islands need to be returned to Japan, The Sixty-Four Villages East of the River need to be returned to China and there are other parts of Russia that historical belong to other countries.

    Long story short if you going to pull that excuse then I assume you support the Russians returning land that historical belongs to others~
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:29 pm

    Well, seeing as a huge portion of land Russia obtained are from countries/civilizations that don't really exist anymore, can't say it's a fair comparison.

    But the fact it's land that under UN isn't recognized as Armenian and Russia agreed to that, kinda puts things into perspective for Armenians.  No one will help them in that land but they themselves.

    My only guess will be Russia providing Armenia with weapons like how Turkey does for Azerbaijan.  That's about it
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:35 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Well, seeing as a huge portion of land Russia obtained are from countries/civilizations that don't really exist anymore, can't say it's a fair comparison.

    But the fact it's land that under UN isn't recognized as Armenian and Russia agreed to that, kinda puts things into perspective for Armenians.  No one will help them in that land but they themselves.

    My only guess will be Russia providing Armenia with weapons like how Turkey does for Azerbaijan.  That's about it

    Japan exists, China exists, Germany exists etc, a lot of the areas I speak of the respective countries do exist.

    So it's quite a fair comparison.

    Why yes but that doesn't matter that Russia nor the UN see it has Azeri land, the standard is "Historical" it belongs to Armenia there-fore its Armenian land. So I assume for people going with that logic, they will apply the same logic to all is my point.
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:38 pm

    Armenian defenders battle Azeri invaders

    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:39 pm

    Armenian wrote:Pashinyan just called all people served in army in the last year. He stated that it's not about NKR anymore and there is a real danger of a new Armenian genocide.

    He seems quite worried to me. I think Putin made some kind of deal with Erdoğan and decided to sacrifice Armenians. Not that it makes any sense but Russia is clearly not willing to do anything to help Armenia. Azerbaijan on the other hand is trying to create narrative that missiles are fired from Armenia.

    The purpose is clear. Attacking Armenia.

    Some people here might find this exaggerated but I think we are really on our own against Turks. Land inversion to Armenia is real possibility.

    Not only Russia but the whole world is watching Armenians to be massacred again. In the 21st century.

    Putin sold northern Syria to Erdogan for an S-400 deal. There is no reason to not expect Putin sell Armenia to Erdogan for another S-400 deal.
    medo
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    Post  medo Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:40 pm

    https://ru.armeniasputnik.am/politics/20201004/24763861/Pochemu-piloty-VS-Azerbaydzhana-ne-katapultiruyutsya-MO-Armenii-o-primechatelnoy-detali.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    ЕРЕВАН, 4 окт — Sputnik. Пилоты всех самолетов ВС Азербайджана, сбитых в зоне карабахского конфликта, не катапультируются, сообщил представитель Минобороны Армении Арцрун Ованнисян на своей странице в Facebook

    "Примечательная особенность: летчики всех сбитых азербайджанских самолетов падают камнем на землю вместе с самолетом. Никто не катапультируется. Возникает вопрос: а, быть может, не могут, потому что катапульта отключена? То есть Азербайджану плевать не только на войска, но и на самых ценных военных специалистов. Эта точка зрения подкрепляется тем, что тела пилотов остаются на полях", - отметил Ованнисян.

    YEREVAN, 4 October - Sputnik. The pilots of all aircraft of the Azerbaijani Armed Forces, shot down in the zone of the Karabakh conflict, are not ejected, the representative of the Armenian Defense Ministry Artsrun Hovhannisyan said on his Facebook page.

    "A remarkable feature: the pilots of all downed Azerbaijani planes fall like a stone to the ground along with the valuable military specialists. This point of view is supported by the fact that the bodies of the pilots remain in the fields, "Hovhannisyan said.
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:41 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    By your logic, it's okay for mainland Chinese to slaughter Taiwanese, it's okay for Serbians to slaughter Kovovars, it's okay for Sudanese to slaughter the people in South Sudan? I think people matter a bit more than a piece of paper, don't you?
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:47 pm

    Armenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    By your logic Crimea is occupied as well? No, its people living in their historical lands and everybody here knows it.

    Thinking that it's about Karabakh is extremely naive. It's about wiping out all Armenians from the region to create Turkic empire. We all know Erdoğan and we all know what he wants.

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 Fb_img10

    It doesn't matter if Russia helps Armenia or not. If Russia does not help, America or Iran will step in, Russia will lose another ally in the region.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:47 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Well, seeing as a huge portion of land Russia obtained are from countries/civilizations that don't really exist anymore, can't say it's a fair comparison.

    But the fact it's land that under UN isn't recognized as Armenian and Russia agreed to that, kinda puts things into perspective for Armenians.  No one will help them in that land but they themselves.

    My only guess will be Russia providing Armenia with weapons like how Turkey does for Azerbaijan.  That's about it

    Japan exists, China exists, Germany exists etc, a lot of the areas I speak of the respective countries do exist.

    So it's quite a fair comparison.

    Why yes but that doesn't matter that Russia nor the UN see it has Azeri land, the standard is "Historical" it belongs to Armenia there-fore its Armenian land. So I assume for people going with that logic, they will apply the same logic to all is my point.

    Wasnt Germany owned but Prussia was Kaliningrad.  But as for China, even they do not recognize any land that is Russian as their own besides some tweet from some moron.  Japan, yes that does make sense.

    But I get what your point is.  And yes, land changes and while maybe Azerbaijan has questionable claims to it, it is land disputed that Russia didn't recognize so Armenia cannot drag them into that conflict.

    Edit: I see Ultron.. Sorry I mean Ultimate warrior....Oh wait, got that wrong again....Tai Chi Ni Ming Ping or whatever is spamming and trolling again.

    But uh, he gets special free pass from GarryB for some dumb fucking reason.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:48 pm

    medo wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    Artzakh is Armenian land for more than 2500 years. Communists under Stalin stolen this Armenian land and give it to Azerbaijan. It is Azerbaijan who is occupying stolen land. Azerbaijan should return stolen land to the real owners. You could  not be an occupier on your own land. You could only be an owner.

    Actually, USSR should have returned Azerbaijan back to Iran when USSR died in 1991. Azerbaijan is Iranian land stolen by Russian empire.
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:50 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Did Armenia recognize Crimea as Russian though?  Because if not, then the favor may be returned and Russia didn't bother recognizing Karabakh.

    I think because land is disputed, Russia won't help. But if Armenia proper gets hit, well....

    The anti Russian nonsense Armenia pushed for a bit there may be coming home to roost. Cause their new US and EU partners don't seem to be helping either.

    Armenia is one of 10 countries other than Russia that did. Turkey and Azerbaijan are of course against Crimea being Russian.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_68/262

    You can imagine. Having only 10 allies left in the world, Russia can't afford to lose Armenia to Turkey and Azerbaijan.
    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:53 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    medo wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Armenian wrote:
    Isos wrote:Armenia never asked for russian help.

    Nikol called Putin 3 times. Do you think he called to ask how is the weather is in Moscow?

    Of course he asked for help and now we can guess the answer. The reason of not officially asking help is pure political to show the enemy that we have cards.

    That is an occupied region, if Armenia is so worried about a genocide they can move people into Armenia.

    Moscow has made it clear they will not help Armenia over land even they consider occupied.

    Artzakh is Armenian land for more than 2500 years. Communists under Stalin stolen this Armenian land and give it to Azerbaijan. It is Azerbaijan who is occupying stolen land. Azerbaijan should return stolen land to the real owners. You could  not be an occupier on your own land. You could only be an owner.

    Ah if that's the standard we are going by....then The Kuril Islands need to be returned to Japan, The Sixty-Four Villages East of the River need to be returned to China and there are other parts of Russia that historical belong to other countries.

    Long story short if you going to pull that excuse then I assume you support the Russians returning land that historical belongs to others~

    Not to mention Ivangorod which is still claimed by Estonia based on Treaty of Tartu as Estonian land occupied by Russia.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:55 pm

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 PJJO3tv

    Hmm. This looks oddly familiar with this posting history style - Spamming the shit out of a thread.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:57 pm

    @Mike

    Prussia aka the German Empire was abolished by the allies after WW1, Prussia is Germany in this case, Kaliningrad however even during WW2 was part of Germany. The Allies basically took Poland away from them for losing the war and made them abloish the Empire but they were allowed to keep the current lands Germany has.

    Edit: This Ultimate Warrior Spam is getting annoying.
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    Post  nomadski Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:59 pm

    Tony stark here. If report is genuine. Russia will not help defend Armenia. Then maybe because economic importance of Turkey / EU relationship far greater than Economic or strategic importance of little Armenia. They can still trade through Asia. Even if ongoing war in caucases. Without Dollar sanctions. Ukraine sanctions still remain.

    But this is short termism. Leaving the problem for tomorrow. Iran however looses much more, if  Turkey gains control over caucases. Stablishes a land and sea blockade against trade with Russia. And encourages separatism in Iran. So Iran much more likely to check Turkey moves against Armenia.

    This leaves Europe. That I think will make noises, if Turkey removed Armenia. But because Turkey is NATO,  and will put pressure on Iran and Russia. They will practically do nothing. Even if Armenia joins NATO. They will be sacrificial lamb. Like Cyprus.

    So best plan is for Iran to support Armenia. But since Iran has big Azeri population, and they feel bad about occupation of some territory. Then Armenia could compromise, to appease them. Armenia can even join Iran as free state and ally. The economic interests of Armenia, will be served by Iran. Despite sanctions, Iran economy is doing relatively well, with positive growth. Iran needs them most.

    But if Armenia joins NAZTO, and is thrown under a bus, to let Turkish troops pass. Then Iran will respond with force against them. This I am sure about. And nobody gains. Not Russians or Europeans or even Iranians. But I think even then, we will come on top.

    Stark out.


    Last edited by nomadski on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:02 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    Tony stark here. If report is genuine. Russia will not help defend Armenia. Then maybe because economic importance of Turkey / EU relationship far greater than Economic or strategic importance of little Armenia. They can still trade through Asia. Even if ongoing war in caucases. Without Dollar sanctions. Ukraine sanctions still remain.

    But this is short termism. Leaving the problem for tomorrow. Iran however looses much more, if  Turkey gains control over caucases. Stablishes a land and sea blockade against trade with Russia. And encourages separatism in Iran. So Iran much more likely to check Turkey moves against Armenia.

    This leaves Europe. That I think will make noises, if Turkey removed Armenia. But because Turkey is NATO,  and will put pressure on Iran and Russia. They will practically do nothing. Even if Armenia joins NATO. They will be sacrificial lamb. Like Cyprus.

    So best plan is for Iran to support Armenia. But since Iran has big Azeri population, and they feel bad about occupation of some territory. Then Armenia could compromise, to appease them. Armenia can even join Iran as free state and ally. The economic interests of Armenia, will be served by Iran. Despite sanctions, Iran economy is doing relatively well, with positive growth. Iran needs them most.

    But if Armenia joins NAZTO, and is thrown under a bus, to let Turkish troops pass. Then Iran will respond with force against them. This I am sure about. And nobody gains. Not Russians or Europeans or Russians or even Iranians. But I think even then, we will come on top.

    Stark out.

    This was a really stupid post.
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:04 pm

    Tai Hai Chen wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Russia helps Armenia or not. If Russia does not help, America or Iran will step in, Russia will lose another ally in the region.

    You really are behaving as per how others here think you used to do as a different name.

    Blatantly ignoring a MODs instructions on structuring replies, again and again.

    As per Garry up thread, my highlight.

    "If you post a message and then think there is something else you want to add or say, instead of creating a new message that you consider editing your existing post and adding it to the message you already posted.

    Note ironically you wont be banned for doing this, but now that you have been instructed to stop flooding the forum, you can get a ban for ignoring a Mod.
    .............
    As John mentions in the first post of this thread also be careful not to repost entire posts just to reply to one comment... especially if they include lots of text and photos and videos."


    Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Maximmmm Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:06 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Did Armenia recognize Crimea as Russian though?  Because if not, then the favor may be returned and Russia didn't bother recognizing Karabakh.

    I think because land is disputed, Russia won't help. But if Armenia proper gets hit, well....

    The anti Russian nonsense Armenia pushed for a bit there may be coming home to roost. Cause their new US and EU partners don't seem to be helping either.

    Basically this is what's going on.
    Imho it's a very fine line to walk. On the one hand, yes they are our allies and we have military bases on their territory. On the other hand in recent years they've been very coy with issues that we consider important and have been dancing around with any other faction that is open for it like Belarus.
    However, I do believe we should make sure that Armenia itself is at the very least safe. That is probably what will happen.
    It's also quite clear that the Armenians will hold the line with some minor losses at the front. Letting the Azeris move forward a bit so Aliev can claim that things weren't for nothing is maybe the best for a possible peace agreement.

    And finally, it's the fault of both sides anyway, they're both stuck in their ways.

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    Post  Tai Hai Chen Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:14 pm

    Hopefully Israel does the right thing and end arms sale to Arzerbaijan.

    https://www.jpost.com/international/israel-may-halt-its-weapons-sale-to-azerbaijan-armenian-ambassador-says-644602
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    nomadski


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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 Empty Re: 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

    Post  nomadski Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:20 pm

    @ Mike the terrible

    Why stupid?  Every state has own policy. Russia has own interests. If the choice is between  Turkey  into caucases, Armenians forgotten about as part of  " NAZTO", ( militarily insignificant), poor economy and no oil. Plus no serious Turkish nationalism problem in Russia or threatening Russia trade routs to China. And no EU sanctions for helping Armenia. It makes sense. But maybe it hurts, because it is true ........?

    Iranians will stand against Turkish troops. Will Russian troops do the same in Armenia? Did they do it in Syria or Libya? Or did they shy away after a few shots? And wagner evacuating? It remains to be seen. But Armenia needs support now. Not when Turks are eating them alive......



    Last edited by nomadski on Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 18 Empty Re: 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

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