Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+37
miroslav
Rasisuki Nebia
The_Observer
Arkanghelsk
Broski
Shadåw
Granger
marat
calripson
Russian_Patriot_
ALAMO
lancelot
Lurk83
mnztr
TMA1
medo
Tai Hai Chen
Maximmmm
marcellogo
hoom
PapaDragon
LMFS
lyle6
flamming_python
The-thing-next-door
Big_Gazza
walle83
Begome
George1
franco
Isos
GarryB
limb
owais.usmani
Arrow
Hole
AJ-47
41 posters

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    avatar
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:22 pm

    calripson wrote:The perfect time to create an incident like this is when flammable coatings/paint are being applied - a simple gel capsule containing the correct catalyst left in a container calculated to dissolve and ignite in a few hours. Why those material would be left next to the ship and unattended at night is beyond me other than pure laziness. Why there isn't a 24/7 security detail also beyond me. Why they aren't working 24 hour shifts for a ship laid down in 2013 also beyond me.

    The laziness factor is more realistic then conspiracy theories. I've heard those before, something about two towers... and an inside job?

    And yes epoxys resins and paints which are acrylic or polyester based resins are highly flammable.

    Laziness is common. Remember lot of these workers are working long shifts and end late.

    They are tired at the end of shift cycle and can become complacent. Plenty of times I've left gelcoats lying around my plugged in welder, or welding nearby to paint and wood. Yeah not the smartest but when theres loads of these things lying around and you're trying getting the job done complacency settles in and mistakes happen so it's best to be organized and clean at the end of shift maybe stop work by an hour or 2 to go over what seems like a menial task that can save a project like this one.

    In the end it's a mistake. Many people are desperate for Russia to build its navy in 6 months but given the situation I dont think it's a priority. In any case 1 less frigate is like a drop of water in the grand scheme of things.

    In fact buiniy was laid down. The biggest consequence of this is that it will take a most a year to catchup to the phase they were on Provorniy, as the hull is fine. So they need to clean up, and resume work. It's an accident I don't understand why people are literally having cardiac arrhythmia over a fire which did not kill anyone or totally trash a good hull.

    They still have to investigate and in the end we will see whether it was left over paints/chemicals, fuel soaked rag, welder, some sort of inside job, or the second coming of the xenu aliens. I dont think the Defense Ministry will lose sleep over it though
    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 228
    Points : 228
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Krepost Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    It seems that not even main gun was installed. Good news? Wrong

    That would indicate that ship was hilariously behind schedule even though it was supposed to be delivered next year

    Theory (solid one) making rounds is that management ordered this fire to hide incompetence, regular occurrence in Russian construction business


    The ship was certainly behind schedule.... depending on which schedule you are looking at.
    This hull of this ship was unceremoniously launched back in 2019 and left in the water for a long time with no work done on it because the shipyard was concentrating on other ships (military and civilian).
    Then, more recently, it was brought back to dock and they started completing the work.
    Then, the fire incident occurred.
    It was scheduled to be commissioned in 2021. That later was moved to 2022. The more likely date would have been 2023.
    But now, the date will slip further... if the ship is salvageable.

    Your (conspiracy) theory is one of the many floated at the moment.
    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 228
    Points : 228
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Krepost Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:As for the superstructure , it is well known that they are fiberglass structures. It is lighter and more stealthy then metal which is highly reflective. They are flammable, but in combat situation really wont make a difference if your on the receiving end of 500kg warhead.

    Didn't even take combat to take out this vessel utterly, as it seems

    You are switching on the drama mode much too often my friend Laughing
    Just an accident, a quite common in the shipbuilding business. Some of them are an effect of negligence, some of them just happen. The industry is a risky business, that is why they are insured Laughing
    Good that no one is dead.
    I remember we had an explosion on the slipway once, as the shift was painting the cargo bays and had not done proper ventilation after. Another shift was welding some shit on the deck, and the remaining gases from painting just cooked off. Fatal casualties occurred. Ships burned several times either. Yards are very dangerous places, first of all. They are using different processes involving flammable materials, explosive gases etc. Those things are just a part of this business.

    And I'm glad no-one died ALAMO

    Now the question is about recalling this whole class for major rework, because these ships are major liabilities, and we don't need potentially dozens of dead sailors from even one accident.

    Probably not just this class, if this fiberglass shit is prevalent.

    Flammable materials are present during operation as well. The question is not about what flammable materials are present and the danger of fires starting, but about why does the whole bloody thing burn down.

    Pretty much all modern warships accross the globe are using composites for super-structures.
    They reduce weight and have other advantages.
    Do not for a moment think that fiberglass or other composites are less safe than superstructures made of steel.
    Over the years, the steel in ships is covered with several layers of paint... which is even more flammable than wood.
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8489
    Points : 8473
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Isos Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:25 pm

    That doen't mean behind schedule. It wasn't finished but most systems were IMO.

    I guess they were in the process of installing everything on the ship and painting it.

    I guess it's good for them to do it step by step instead of rushing. If the systems were installed in hurry but not needed yet, they would have burned.
    avatar
    calripson


    Posts : 608
    Points : 663
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Industrial Sabotage

    Post  calripson Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:04 pm

    There is nothing "conspiratorial" in industrial sabotage. It is open knowledge that such programs were in place targeting the USSR in the 1980s. Israel routinely engages in these practices against Iran. The political environment certainly allows for it today. Information Security Director for the Russian Foreign Ministry Alexander Krutskikh has stated that Russia is targeted on almost a daily basis via cyberattacks. As for the 911 analogies, what is clear from that incident is the very strong circumstantial evidence that intelligence agencies had prior knowledge of the planned attacks and the presence in the US of the various actors involved and did not act upon that knowledge nor share that information with law enforcement.

    Big_Gazza and kvs like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8489
    Points : 8473
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Isos Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:26 pm

    There is a big difference between a cyberattack to see what the enemy is doing or putting down its website (which isn't a big issue) and destroying a ship.

    One is just spying with no direct impact on people, the other is a declaration of war that can quickly escalate.

    flamming_python likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11886
    Points : 11952
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:11 pm


    https://i.imgur.com/0dGHhZj.png

    Ouch... lol1

    flamming_python likes this post

    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 622
    Points : 632
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  walle83 Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:So many people who can't take bad news... get over it.

    As shown by American and Chinese ship fires fires happen.

    This ship did not have its fire fighting system active so of course it is going to burn why do you think they fit these ships with fire fighting systems and equipment... because they burn...

    There was no one killed and it sounds like the engine and rear area of the ship is fine... I would say take out the engine and put it in a new ship and just get over this little mishap.

    Sounds like it wasn't fitted with its radar and main electronics... I suspect the cylinders they were worried about would mean there was a lot of wielding going on still which suggests structural work was being done unless they were air compressor cylinders and they were painting.

    Either way grow a pair, work out what happened and take steps to make sure it does not happen again and either repair and complete the ship or get it out of there and lay down another one.

    A small mishap? The ship was after 7 years getting ready to be finished and to join the Pacific Fleet that is in deperate need of new warships.

    Russia need to start getting better protecting thier vessels from fire during construction. At present I would not be suprised at all if a fire would start on the Kuznetsov again or on any of the frigates being built.

    PapaDragon and Broski like this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11886
    Points : 11952
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:23 am

    GarryB wrote:...this little mishap...

    Whole damn thing was torched, how the f*ck can that be called a small mishap?

    It's not even medium or big mishap, it's colossal fuckup

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8489
    Points : 8473
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Isos Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:29 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:...this little mishap...

    Whole damn thing was torched, how the f*ck can that be called  a small mishap?

    It's not even medium or big mishap, it's colossal fuckup


    Compare to french who burned a SSN or US that lost a heli carrier it's a small mishap.

    GarryB and Hole like this post

    avatar
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 204
    Points : 206
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:21 am

    Honestly,  for Russia I doubt the number of corvettes or frigates changes any calculation. They feel perfectly fine to demand NATO to surrender with the current amount of forces and its enough.

    When did china issue an ultimatum to NATO with its carrier strike groups and massive destroyers?

    Oh right, never

    GarryB, kvs, Hole and Broski like this post

    avatar
    calripson


    Posts : 608
    Points : 663
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Really

    Post  calripson Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:59 am

    Isos wrote:There is a big difference between a cyberattack to see what the enemy is doing or putting down its website (which isn't a big issue) and destroying a ship.

    One is just spying with no direct impact on people, the other is a declaration of war that can quickly escalate.

    Well, the Russian spokesman described the cyberattacks as "World War III", so I doubt it is limited to website denial or "spying".

    As for industrial espionage, you clearly underestimate America's affinity for aggressive policies. Reagan signed a CIA directive in 1982 to supply booby-rigged components for Soviet technology that caused, among other incidents, a huge natural gas pipeline explosion. As for "acts of war", the US has never been too shy about crossing that line: routinely violating the airspace of the Soviet Union; enforcing a naval blockade; or dropping depth charges around Soviet submarines operating in international waters.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs and Broski like this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11886
    Points : 11952
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:40 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:...this little mishap...

    Whole damn thing was torched, how the f*ck can that be called  a small mishap?

    It's not even medium or big mishap, it's colossal fuckup


    Compare to french who burned a SSN or US that lost a heli carrier it's a small mishap.

    And like I always say: other people's fuckups are no excuse for your own

    walle83, Broski and Lennox like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  lancelot Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:31 am

    calripson wrote:Reagan signed a CIA directive in 1982 to supply booby-rigged components for Soviet technology that caused, among other incidents, a huge natural gas pipeline explosion. As for "acts of war", the US has never been too shy about crossing that line: routinely violating the airspace of the Soviet Union; enforcing a naval blockade; or dropping depth charges around Soviet submarines operating in international waters.

    This is a typical US lie. There is no evidence of such a pipeline explosion ever happening. Good luck trying to find it.
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 995
    Points : 993
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 35

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  owais.usmani Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:37 am

    Front UKSK cells are also busted

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Medium10

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 1214
    Points : 1216
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  ALAMO Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:32 am

    Isos wrote:There is a big difference between a cyberattack to see what the enemy is doing or putting down its website (which isn't a big issue) and destroying a ship.

    One is just spying with no direct impact on people, the other is a declaration of war that can quickly escalate.

    The other is actually much easier, and I have faced that on production in a shipyard in one of the running projects.
    We have switched to another supplier of welding materials, specialized for duplex steel.
    Back then, there were only 3 suppliers of such, worldwide - a Lincoln, Avesta and Kobe,  plus one more being actually was just rebranding materials of the other, adding some expertise backup.
    Any changes needed to be proven first, that was quite a complicated process.
    A special testing&implementation project was running.
    The easiest way to spoil the results of the tests was by sabotaging them.
    So that is what a competitor did - they have paid to the guys who were performing the tests.
    They know each other, they have taught them the process before.
    What they were doing, was just dropping some heavy tool on the freshly made and hot weld. It resulted in cracks revealed while standard x-ray examination, effectively destroying the whole testing material and conclusions.
    Took 3 months to establish the cause of the problem and the people involved.
    As easy as that.
    Costed MAYBE 1000 euro in total, where the contract volume was about $30 mln.

    And as for the USKS, I would say it needs repainting only, as the exhaust temperature for modern missiles can be 2000degC. Those things are projected to withstand this, the only question is exposure time.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32250
    Points : 32778
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:17 am

    It was scheduled to be commissioned in 2021. That later was moved to 2022. The more likely date would have been 2023.
    But now, the date will slip further... if the ship is salvageable.

    Your (conspiracy) theory is one of the many floated at the moment.

    Which makes the conspiracy theory a little redundant... it was obviously not the shipyards highest priority and kept getting pushed back, but if it was being allowed to get extensions then why torch it and lose money on it completely?

    There is nothing "conspiratorial" in industrial sabotage.

    It will be investigated and if there is an issue I am sure the FSB will deal with it.

    In a months time perhaps a dozen ammo dumps in Poland and Ukraine might burn down... who knows.

    The ship was after 7 years getting ready to be finished and to join the Pacific Fleet that is in deperate need of new warships.

    Desperate in what way? If it was so damn critical how did they push the schedule back several times?

    It was a fire.

    Russia need to start getting better protecting thier vessels from fire during construction.

    24/7 armed guards would cost a fortune, tie up enormous resources, and still not 100% catch any mischief in time.

    If this was sabotage it might have been a timed fuse in a paint tin that burned for days before ignition... ten people after the saboteur could have used that paint tin... the saboteur might not have even been a painter and may never have used any paint tins... just dropped the device in an open tin at the end of the last shift one day...

    At present I would not be suprised at all if a fire would start on the Kuznetsov again or on any of the frigates being built.

    The Kuznetsov is likely to be in service for another 20 to 30 years so the chances of a fire are actually rather good.

    It's not even medium or big mishap, it's colossal fuckup

    Yeah, the sky is falling... fire everyone... that will help.

    Compare to french who burned a SSN or US that lost a heli carrier it's a small mishap.

    No body died... and the companies that made parts already installed get to make some more... so more work for them... if they have to make it again from scratch then they can improve the design if they have made any improvement in the 7 years since this ship was laid down...

    The fleet waiting for this ship just gets to wait a little longer, though this might increase the urgency on all Frigate production so funding and support might increase to get other ships out faster...

    When did china issue an ultimatum to NATO with its carrier strike groups and massive destroyers?

    Quite true, this is a real change in behaviour for Putin... and I think it is about time... the west has been given every opportunity to be mature and adult about this.

    As for industrial espionage, you clearly underestimate America's affinity for aggressive policies.

    Yep, they are bastards... but despite being rich, being able to print money without suffering from inflation, and having the west at her beck and call following her every command... things are not so good in the state of Denmark so to speak and they are not even recognising there is a problem let alone attempting to find a solution to their very serious real problems.... as opposed to their made up problems created by using Russia and Iran and China and North Korea as their enemy when there is clearly no need... except to fund the US MIC.

    And like I always say: other people's fuckups are no excuse for your own

    Not an excuse, an explaination... accidents do happen to everyone... in this case an accident happened and no one died... who cares?

    Front UKSK cells are also busted

    So an extra order for replacements should be made soon.... no big deal.


    And as for the USKS, I would say it needs repainting only, as the exhaust temperature for modern missiles can be 2000degC. Those things are projected to withstand this, the only question is exposure time.

    Any electronics would be cooked... probably safer just to order new launch bins.... they will need to mass produce them anyway... lots of ships will need them and the bigger the ships the more bins they will be needing per ship.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    Maximmmm
    Maximmmm


    Posts : 294
    Points : 297
    Join date : 2015-07-27
    Location : Switzerland

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Maximmmm Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:05 am

    I mean it's definitely a write off for sure, but also it's one of the biggest "dolgostroi" of the series left. Severnaya was painfully slow working on it.
    It definitely sucks, but I'm glad the people hurt were at a minimum, that's key. And maybe they'll finally start shaking up the Health&Safety reqs in the shipyards with regular inspections. I mean how many more ships do we need to lose?
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


    Posts : 6590
    Points : 6564
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  miketheterrible Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:39 am

    Maximmmm wrote:I mean it's definitely a write off for sure, but also it's one of the biggest "dolgostroi" of the series left. Severnaya was painfully slow working on it.
    It definitely sucks, but I'm glad the people hurt were at a minimum, that's key. And maybe they'll finally start shaking up the Health&Safety reqs in the shipyards with regular inspections. I mean how many more ships do we need to lose?

    This isn't a write off. Maybe some of the systems like the launcher is a write off. But overall ship? No. Most likely not.

    But will take time to fix and get ready. Maybe a long fix. Unfortunately.
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 995
    Points : 993
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 35

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  owais.usmani Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:26 pm

    As per charly015, Provorny will be rebuilt.



    dunno

    dino00 likes this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8489
    Points : 8473
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Isos Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:35 pm

    So it's not a big deal. The top structure can be build pretty fast.


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    1h
    Severnaya Verf announced that the Provorny's hull was not damaged by the fire, and there was no equipment in the superstructure, which will be dismantled. They said they were conducting negotiations to build a new superstructure. 11/
    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 228
    Points : 228
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Krepost Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:47 pm

    Official Statement from SEVERNAYA WERF:

    12/20/2021 On the weekend after the completion of the fire extinguishing work on the "Provorny" corvette, the specialists of the Severnaya Verf carried out its initial inspection. Factory services have previously established that, thanks to the mounted fire insulation between the superstructure and the deck, the ship's hull was not damaged. The superstructure must be dismantled. There was no equipment in the superstructure. Negotiations are underway with JSC SNSZ on the construction of a new superstructure. To prevent freezing of the water that got into the hold during the extinguishing of the fire, heating and electricity were ordered on Saturday and Sunday, about 100 workers provided the pumping of water and drying the surfaces. They also cleaned the premises from the effects of the fire. To assess the damage, a commission was created from representatives of the plant and the USC, and it started to work. It is too early to talk about the causes of the fire. An authorized commission will take several weeks to study the circumstances and determine the cause. wrote:

    http://www.nordsy.spb.ru/pressroom/20034/


    GarryB, dino00, Big_Gazza, kvs, LMFS and Arkanghelsk like this post

    avatar
    calripson


    Posts : 608
    Points : 663
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Engines?

    Post  calripson Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:25 pm

    Were there engines even installed? Awful slow progress was being made on that ship. Almost seems like a lack of skilled workers given the workload Severnaya Wharf has.
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 11826
    Points : 11977
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  kvs Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:29 am

    calripson wrote:Were there engines even installed? Awful slow progress was being made on that ship. Almost seems like a lack of skilled workers given the workload Severnaya Wharf has.

    Obviously no hurry to build it. Russia does not need such vessels for defense and it does not engage in globo-cop patrols.
    It would be nice to have, but people on this board are overly fixated on these things.

    GarryB and Arkanghelsk like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32250
    Points : 32778
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:54 am

    It is clearly not a huge priority for them, but it is good that the damage was limited and the way forwards can be determined and applied.

    Sponsored content


    Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:12 am