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    2020 Belarusian protests

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:31 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?

    Bielorussia is not successful.  It survived only because Russia was pumping there 8 billions US dollars each year.  
    If they want to be an independent country they have to survive without that, otherwise they can try and show how they thrive without Russian money (and with the infrastructure and industries built in soviet times that are aging).
    Belorussia had a better living condition in comparison to Russia only in the 90s, because luckily for them they did not have gaidar and chubais.

    If they don't want to join Russia, Russia can use the money to build new industries and infrastructures in its own territory, and finance new research projects.


    Exactly. And it's been successful so far. But clearly not successful enough for the majority of the new generation of Belarussians and I can't blame them for that at all. Russia is not successful enough for me either and I want to try new politics too.

    They want to try their luck and I wish them godspeed. If they end up as a miserable hellhole then maybe then there will be the will for full annexation, or alternatively, for a permanent orientation towards integration with Russia as part of a future union state or some such formation.

    Meanwhile, the money we save can go towards our own territories. We'll also get a lot of Belarussian migrants from the result of privatized industries and destroyed agriculture, that will prefer to live and work as equals in Russia and will have skills that are in demand, as opposed to cleaning toilets in Poland and Lithuania.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:13 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?

    Bielorussia is not successful.  It survived only because Russia was pumping there 8 billions US dollars each year.  
    If they want to be an independent country they have to survive without that, otherwise they can try and show how they thrive without Russian money (and with the infrastructure and industries built in soviet times that are aging).
    Belorussia had a better living condition in comparison to Russia only in the 90s, because luckily for them they did not have gaidar and chubais.

    If they don't want to join Russia, Russia can use the money to build new industries and infrastructures in its own territory, and finance new research projects.


    Actually, its a lot more than $8B per year. That was just in terms of agreements. Loans combined its higher.

    Also, over 20% of their economy is reliant on Russia.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?

    Bielorussia is not successful.  It survived only because Russia was pumping there 8 billions US dollars each year.  
    If they want to be an independent country they have to survive without that, otherwise they can try and show how they thrive without Russian money (and with the infrastructure and industries built in soviet times that are aging).
    Belorussia had a better living condition in comparison to Russia only in the 90s, because luckily for them they did not have gaidar and chubais.

    If they don't want to join Russia, Russia can use the money to build new industries and infrastructures in its own territory, and finance new research projects.


    Actually, its a lot more than $8B per year.  That was just in terms of agreements.  Loans combined its higher.

    Also, over 20% of their economy is reliant on Russia.

    That would be only nominally direct dependence. It is much larger if you take into account the rackets such as buying cheap Russian oil, making value added goods
    out of it and then selling it for a much larger price to the west and elsewhere (Ukraine, etc.). GDP accounting is a joke that only counts the nominal import price
    of the cheap oil and not the derived production. Maybe that is true for abstracted inputs and outputs, but Belorus is not going to get cheap oil anywhere else,
    thus the total value added GDP increment has to be included. This is why Lukasschenko was throwing a tantrum pissing on WWII and Russia, when time came
    for this Belorussian circus to deal with reality. The rotten turd Lukasschenko is personally invested in these rackets.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    First of all Belarussians would not agree. And Russians and Belarussians are basically one people, and the Russians and Belarussians in their majority agree to that statement - why then would I go against the wishes of my own people?
    Let the Belarussians try with a new leader. More than likely it will lead to the collapse of their economy and the export of 15% of their population if not more as a labour army to Poland and Russia. But the point is they have to experience such a distopia for themselves, as we in Russia did in the 90s with Yeltsin.

    Secondly, I think Russia will be much more successful by building a good system, and then exporting it to other ex-Soviet states - without trying to incorporate their territory into its own, which few people would agree to.
    Most people would agree to a sort of Soviet Union-lite if it shows it can be a successful model and this would guarantee Russia's prosperity far better than some land-grabs or annexations that will only lead to a divided society, avenues for destablization from abroad and bitter regional populations. Think Baltic states. Why would I want to turn Belarus into a future alienated Baltic chihuahua?

    Third of all I'm not for the Russian Empire; don't you know Russian society rejected this model in 1917. Why would we want to return to it? Let our neighbours keep their sovereignty, but a tight economic/political/military union I'm certainly in favour of, on a voluntary basis. If they're not in favour of it; it's their loss. But for it to even be a loss to them, first of all Russia has to be some sort of model and advanced society in comparison to everyone else's. At the moment it's not. In the interim period I'm fully in favour of advancing Russia to the level of Japan or South Korea and using the increasingly backwards in comparison ex-Soviet nations as manpower and immigration pools for colonizing the 3/4 of Russian territory that we already do have with no issues, but that is sparsely populated. We can also use the decadent hell holes in Europe for this purpose too; fill out Siberia with some Greeks and Germans.

    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?

    Well then you should just vote for the communist party, unlike any western country Russia is actually democratic, if you lose the vote then it is the will of the people and you have no grounds to argue.

    But regarding your suggestion of importing europeans, this is suicidal, unless perhaps Russia were to wipe out every last vestige of nato's existence and wait for a few generations. Of all the countries in europe only Russia and possibly a few Russian allies have not fallen to liberal degeneracy.

    About restoring the Soviet Union, but with a less fanatical devotion to communism, this would be a viable option (as long as they still let me buy a mansion). The one obvious thing they would need to avoid is marxism, all the internationalist trite and antitheist bull would need to be purged (the former was ofcourse purged in any communist country to ever exist).

    It was the Soviet Union's devotion to communist texts that was its downfall and it will be the west's devotion to capitalist texts that will spell thier doom.

    We would also ofcourse not want Russia to become some multicultural left communist hell hole, if you want that, move to germany.

    As far as Belarussians being non Russian this as as pointless as claiming people in Vladivostok are Chinese or that poles arent backstabbing scum. They were fully integrated in both the Russian empire and Soviet Union, only in the accursed 90's were they separated.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 pm

    It's not protests to go from Russia towards EU or Nato. People are just suffering from its politics.

    It's a problem of interior politics. Putin won't support him but he won't let a guy/girl living right now in the baltic states surronded by nato advisors take the power as well.

    Louka better give up and put a friend for transition so that he stay safe in a villa. He will have chances to come back because generally when dictators are replaced by democratic leaders, the country barely change and peope dislike those leaders and feel it was better with the old regime.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:13 am

    Belarus is a de-facto protectorate since 1991 like Mongolia was from 1924 till 1991; it was sovereign in name only & up till now allowed to be a transhipment point for goods to support itself. Now that Poland & Lithuania decided to split it away from Russia completely, the gloves r off.
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:38 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Well then you should just vote for the communist party, unlike any western country Russia is actually democratic, if you lose the vote then it is the will of the people and you have no grounds to argue.

    Hardly. They've already been denying communist candidates registration in Saratov, in the Komi republic, in other places

    We have a communist in power in Khakassia, who makes little secret of his disagreement with the centre albeit doesn't push the envelope. He's genuinely very popular, hosts regular internet Q&A sessions for the younger audience, is in his early 30s himself, and has done a lot to battle corruption and sort out people's problems in the region.
    Well I suppose Putin & co. decided they didn't want more such people so here we are. No candidate that doesn't have the ruling circle's approval is going to have an easy time running for elections, if at all.

    But regarding your suggestion of importing europeans, this is suicidal, unless perhaps Russia were to wipe out every last vestige of nato's existence and wait for a few generations. Of all the countries in europe only Russia and possibly a few Russian allies have not fallen to liberal degeneracy.

    Why on earth would it be suicidal? I'm not suggesting to import the libtards, but those who run from them. And there are a lot of such people. In the past people fled Europe to America, but these days the degeneracy and instability in America is even worse. In South Africa there's a war against whites. South America is OK but is a bit underdeveloped. Australia and New Zealand are just more globalist colonies. Eastern Europe is full of people already.

    When Catherine the Great opened the door for Europeans to colonize the Volga, it was mostly Germans who took her up on the offer. And they were fleeing religious wars in Germany.

    In the same manner, there are many Europeans in Germany, France, Ireland I'm sure who would want to flee the new SJW-LGBT-Ecowarrior state religion and its inquisition.
    There are many people in Southern Europe who are apolitical and don't care one way or the other, but would be happy to integrate into a new society which can promise them employment and a stable lifestyle; without having to rely on EU-funded public sector jobs, the tourist sector and work migration to more industrialized countries.

    If you mean that these people or their descendants would side with NATO interventionists - what on earth what would their motive be for doing so?
    It's a common observation that immigrants and those seeking to build a new life for themselves are often more loyal to their new homeland than those who've grown up there, not less.

    Those interested in perserving traditional lifestyles and values, and getting involved in agriculture - can settle villages and rural locations. This is Russia's selling point - it's vast amount of sparsely populated land. We've had a program of inviting Russian Germans back to Russia for the last several years; particularly to the Crimea and certain regions of Siberia, with the prospect of having German-language courses in local schools and being able to settle in compact areas of habitation where the Germans can preserve their culture and language.
    It hasn't been a run-off success but there has been progress, and we can certainly expand the program for other European peoples too with the same conditions.

    In general we need people for the economy. We have a capitalist regime that depends on an ever growing labour army but even under socialism our birthrates were already dropping and ultimately we would come to the same conclusion. Russia is underpopulated, this under-population incurs huge infrastructural and state costs due to the need of providing social services and economic prospects to all the population spread out over such a large territory and so on.

    Importing Europeans not suffering from liberal brainwashing would mean people that have values in common with the majority of Russia's population and that won't alienate or feel alienated from the native population.
    But I'm not adverse to Muslim immigration from Central Asia & Azerbaijan; these are also people we have a lot of history with and get along with; every ex-Soviet nationality is okay really. Add Cubans, Vietnamese, also easy-going people from traditionally friendly countries.
    Another avenue is what Russia is pursuing now - enticing foreign students to stay. At the moment we have about 275k foreign students in Russian universities; mostly from ex-Soviet countries but with an increasing Asian, African and Middle Eastern contingent. Of those a certain amount graduate each year, and we'll be lucky if we get 5000-10000 of them electing to stay and work in Russia per year. The Russian government is working on expanding the number of foreign students. If we can get the numbers up to say 600,000 foreign students and 25000-30000 graduating and staying in Russia per year; then that's already a growing pool of extra specialists with Russian diplomas that can contribute to the economy. And it doesn't matter in this case where they're from as such people are smart enough to integrate well and learn the language quickly.

    About restoring the Soviet Union, but with a less fanatical devotion to communism, this would be a viable option (as long as they still let me buy a mansion). The one obvious thing they would need to avoid is marxism, all the internationalist trite and antitheist bull would need to be purged (the former was ofcourse purged in any communist country to ever exist).

    The Bolsheviks went a bit overboard with the anti-religious crusade but then traditional religion was used far more severely in those times to keep people obedient and with their faces in the mud.
    There is no necessity for repressing religion in this day and age albeit certainly the borgouise structures associated with it are dangerous; the Islamic lobby, the Christian Orthodox clergy-oligarchs and so on. Our clery is corrupt to the bone and have siphoned off tons of money, owing to their connections with the system of power.
    I would certainly detach the Russian Orthodox Church from the state and encourage people's elections for a new Patriarch, rather than rely on the existing rigid hierarchy of money and power. To a lesser extent the same problem is present with the Muslim, Buddhist and Jewish clergy - they're all corrupt and grow fat off their connections with the state.

    As for the 'internationalist trite' well it worked well enough for Lenin. The British strikes and the French sailor mutinies in the Black Sea were key reasons for the withdrawals of interventions from these two states during the Civil War. Even American soldiers in Arkhangelsk refused the orders of their superiors after being agitated by Bolshevik propaganda.
    Revolutions took place and set-up allied socialist governments in Bavaria and Hungary. There were uprisings by Finnish and Latvian socialists which led to civil wars there.
    Had the Polish-Soviet war played out differently we could have ended up with a considerably expanded league of socialist governments in Europe on the back of the same internationalism

    Internationalism is really a prerequisite of socialism, you can't have one without another. A socialist economy is beholden to support other worker's movements and create more socialist countries, in order to grow its own economy and trade.

    But certainly the time is not the same now I advocate a pragmatic approach as China's, rather than world revolution. The priority should be to build up Russia and turn it into a model for others to follow. And I don't call for the abolishment of private enterprise, simply to out-compete the main part of them through the foundation of state-funded co-operatives in agriculture and light industry for a start, coupled with a planned-economy approach to heavy industry and infrastructural development though state corporations (this modern Russia is already doing).

    You can only push for simultaneous revolution to other countries undergoing the same historical processes as your own. In our case it would be Turkey, and I'm eager to see the progress of the Turkish Communist Party there in coming years.

    It was the Soviet Union's devotion to communist texts that was its downfall and it will be the west's devotion to capitalist texts that will  spell thier doom.

    The globalists (the borgouise internationale) are gaining ground and will soon settle the issue with Trump and the dissenters in their own ranks, the nationalists in Europe and so on. They will all be fired from their jobs, publicly humiliated, beaten, jailed, killed, whatever.
    Trump himself and his family, associates will all be put on a show-trial and found guilty of corruption and so on. Which they are genuinely guilty of no doubt. They all are.

    Much as Hitler settled the matter of Yugoslavia and Greece, before marching on Moscow.

    Maybe I'm being pessimistic but it's better to be prepared than to fall into hubris and smugness as our Grand Master Putin has done. Now Putin is even losing Belarus. Belarus in 2020 is Poland in 1980. A rebellious population holding strikes and mass protests held down by a security apparatus and military loyal to Moscow.
    I'm afraid that local limited successes in all these Syria's and Libya's on the periphery don't amount to much, in the face of such a strategic collapse. Next up is Kazakhstan. They're going to have a nationalist anti-Russian revolution.

    As for the Soviet Union's downfall. The Soviet Union's downfall was not caused by communists, but by capitalists.
    Those who provoked all the interethnic provocations and conflicts, agitated with cheap propaganda about becoming a 2nd France, invited Western advisors to privatize industries while hoisting themselves up as the new owners.
    And many of these people were in the Communist Party but that didn't make them communists.
    And finally ended the whole thing by dismantling the USSR in service of their own political game, and then shelling the by then fully-democratic and elected Supreme Soviet in 1993, scribbling up a new constitution and disbanding the rest of the soviets in Russia the same year.

    And this was in fact made possible because by the 80s the USSR had seriously deviated from Marxist-Leninism. It would be an exaggeration to say that it was for example, a totalitarian bureaucracy with a planned economy paying only lip-service to socialism, but there is something in favour of such a point of view.

    There were also those in the late 80s Soviet Union who were genuinely interested in moving the country back towards socialism; many people in Gorbachev's circle. But events pulled the rug out from beneath their feet

    We would also ofcourse not want Russia to become some multicultural left communist hell hole, if you want that, move to germany.

    Germany is neo-liberal capitalist not communist. And it certainly doesn't have any sort of socialist or marxist values or anything of the sort.
    It has capitalist values; those values which can pretty much be anything, that the ruling class decides serves them in keeping themselves at the top and the people at the bottom divided between themselves by race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever.

    As far as Belarussians being non Russian this as as pointless as claiming people in Vladivostok are Chinese or that poles arent backstabbing scum. They were fully integrated in both the Russian empire and Soviet Union, only in the accursed 90's were they separated.

    They had their own republic, their own national language schools and classes at least in the rural districts, their own film studio, their own ethnic identity, their own industrial brands such as BelAZ and MAZ, etc...
    They are still integrated with Russia and Russians; one does not abrogate the other.
    Again I'm not against a Union State. But they have to come to that conclusion themselves. Thanks for Lukashenko's retardation, they'll go through a painful road of pro-Western bullshit and deindustrialization first. And thanks to Putin and his 'loyalty to friends', it may never happen at all, they may be provoked into becoming the next Ukraine.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:00 pm

    Belarus will not fall now that Lukashenko has accepted Russian assistance, the cia will have thier asses handed to them with some added lead and the indoctrinated/imported "opposition" will be exterminated if they manage to make any headway.

    Should it escalate to proxy warfare the poles and baltics will suffer a brutal defeat and Russian-Belorussian patriotism and comradery will be at an all time high.




    Af far as your proposal of what to do with all of the non corrupted europeans. Well as much as I would love to see old europe restored and the treasonist neoliberal parasites heads decorating the spikes of fences, I do not support the idea of rebuilding old europe inside Russian territory. If europeans want to live on Russian land they must swear full loyalty and subservience to Russia and Russian culture, they must understand that if Russians disapprove of their actions or opinions that they have not right to perform thoes actions or have thoes opinions. They would be in Russia as guests and should either adapt to the Russian way of things or stay out of Russian affairs.

    Western culture and society has fallen, what right do westerners have to give Russians advice?

    One other great problem you will face is the corruption of western morality, this is very unlikely to have been avoided by any but a few lucky individuals, most westerners believe in certain "universal truths" that would make them resent the purity of Russian culture and Society. As such any immigrants should be forced to take up Russian morality or be refused admittance lest they fall to becoming a western tool inside of Russia.

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:08 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Belarus will not fall now that Lukashenko has accepted Russian assistance, the cia will have thier asses handed to them with some added lead and the indoctrinated/imported "opposition" will be exterminated if they manage to make any headway.

    Of course it will fall. Every Lukashenko decision just makes the people hate him more. And if Russia is associated with him then you can guess the outcome.

    The CIA is but the least of Lukashenko's worries.

    Should it escalate to proxy warfare the poles and baltics will suffer a brutal defeat and Russian-Belorussian patriotism and comradery will be at an all time high.

    But they won't escalate to proxy war, they know they can't win in such a scenario.

    In such a scenario Russia will easily deliver a crushing defeat, but who would give Russia or Lukashenko the opportunity to unite the masses over some foreign enemy?

    The raw fact is that this is all just another invasion of Russia. Except this is a war that our moron-in-chief has no idea how to fight. And his allies; Lukashenko and co. are even dumber. It's enough to simply observe what situation Luka finds himself now in, after all the covid-idiocy and setting himself up as dictator for life, sending feelers to Europe while they've working to depose him all this time. Nice going Lukashenko.

    The next axis of advance will be against Kaliningrad, when they all start calling themselves Konigsbergers and singing songs about Europe on Kaliningrad sq.
    That's a while away still but things will get there the way we're heading.
    At the same time protest and dissent inside Russia will grow in general.

    Af far as your proposal of what to do with all of the non corrupted europeans. Well as much as I would love to see old europe restored and the treasonist neoliberal parasites heads decorating the spikes of fences, I do not support the idea of rebuilding old europe inside Russian territory. If europeans want to live on Russian land they must swear full loyalty and subservience to Russia and Russian culture, they must understand that if Russians disapprove of  their actions or opinions that they have not right to perform thoes actions or have thoes opinions. They would be in Russia as guests and should either adapt to the Russian way of things or stay out of Russian affairs.

    They will integrate into Russia and Russian culture anyway; that's pretty much unavoidable when surrounded by Russians, trading with Russians, dealing with Russian state institutions, learning Russian at school and so on.
    I don't mean to recreate Europe inside Russia, or to restore old Europe. It's not on my list of priorities.
    I mean to increase Russia's population and economy by giving people enticing conditions under which to move here and preserve their own language and customs as well, should they wish to do so.
    And yes potentially if such communities form in Russia, attain prosperity while keeping a part of their original identity, they can act as insidious elements against the globalist regimes in Europe; that would be nice but the priority again is building up Russia.

    Western culture and society has fallen, what right do westerners have to give Russians advice?

    If someone has something smart to say, then by all means say it. And all Russian citizens should have the same privilege regardless of background or country of origin.
    About lessons in morality and human rights - I doubt such people would move to Russia in the first place, so it's unlikely to be a problem.

    One other great problem you will face is the corruption of western morality, this is very unlikely to have been avoided by any but a few lucky individuals, most westerners believe in certain "universal truths" that would make them resent the purity of Russian culture and Society. As such any immigrants should be forced to take up Russian morality or be refused admittance lest they fall to becoming a western tool inside of Russia.


    I've met a lot of people from Europe, America and so on in Russia.

    It all comes down to what sort of people move here. Most are either entirely apolitical, strongly pro-Russian, or are students without set opinions but genuinely open-minded and open to debate.
    The 'universal truth' idealogues aren't too likely to move here. Why would they if Russia is their enemy?


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:47 pm; edited 4 times in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:20 pm

    "I talked with president Putin, we agreed that we have to save our motherland from Brest to Vladivostok regardless of previous misunderstandings, Belarusians and Russians are brothers"

    https://tsargrad.tv/news/lukashenko-otkrytym-tekstom-zajavil-o-vazhnoj-dogovorjonnosti-s-putinym_277696
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:23 pm

    LMFS wrote:"I talked with president Putin, we agreed that we have to save our motherland from Brest to Vladivostok regardless of previous misunderstandings, Belarusians and Russians are brothers"

    https://tsargrad.tv/news/lukashenko-otkrytym-tekstom-zajavil-o-vazhnoj-dogovorjonnosti-s-putinym_277696

    He is not an authority for anyone but himself and perhaps 20-30% of the Belarus population

    Whatever he says, Belarussian society will be provoked into thinking the opposite

    Sad, sad situation. That Putin probably understands, but then he himself is an oligarch afraid of leaving power so he has no choice but to continue to ruin things dunno
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:He is not an authority for anyone but himself and perhaps 20-30% of the Belarus population

    Then things are quickly improving for him, a few weeks ago he only had the support of 3% of the population Very Happy
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:48 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:He is not an authority for anyone but himself and perhaps 20-30% of the Belarus population

    Then things are quickly improving for him, a few weeks ago he only had the support of 3% of the population Very Happy

    I honestly don't know. Could be 3, could be 30

    But Belarus is heading into the abyss alongside Russia.

    Our leaders need to be hanged for treason and incompetence.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:21 pm

    I do not see the situation so drammatic for Russia.
    As many people were turned against a possible reunion with Russia by also propaganda and the actions of the old man, maybe Lukashenko can now redeem himself and turn a part of the population to the reunification agenda.
    That should be his partying gift to both Bielorussia and Russia.

    Anyway Lukashenko has for sure not the support of 80% of the population, but it is probably much more than 30% (and saying that he has the 3% it's lying in front of the evidence... we are not talking about navalny...)

    And actually it's not like Russia is in debt with bielorussia and needs to help them... however it is also in the interest of Russia to bring finally the integration program at work.
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:44 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I do not see the situation so drammatic for Russia.
    As many people were turned against a possible reunion with Russia by also propaganda and the actions of the old man, maybe Lukashenko can now redeem himself and turn a part of the population to the reunification agenda.
    That should be his partying gift to both Bielorussia and Russia.

    Anyway Lukashenko has for sure not the support of 80% of the population,  but it is probably much more than 30% (and saying  that he has the 3% it's lying in front of the evidence... we are not talking about navalny...)

    And actually it's not like Russia is in debt with bielorussia and needs to help them... however it is also in the interest of Russia to bring finally the integration program at work.

    It's against the interests of Russia to integrate with a people, that doesn't express the will for such.
    Because that in fact would cause the opposite situation - seperation and a system of oppression.

    When Belarus wants integration with Russia as much as Crimea did, then we can talk.

    To achieve this, first Russia has to become something, other than the same oligarchic state in the eyes of neighbouring peoples (not to mention, in the eyes of part of its own people too)
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:55 pm

    While many Belorussians may disagree with Lukashenko, I am sure most will realise that there is currently no alternative.

    The fact that both Belarus ad Russia are ready to use military forces indicates that even if a significant percentage of the population is
    somehow indoctrinated the west will not succeed.

    Chechnya was saved, South Ossetia was Saved, Crimea was saved, Half of Syria has been saved, the only screw up was ukropia. Three and a half out of five is a favorable, if not particularly favorable result.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:22 pm

    Rostislav Ishchenko on Bielorussia:
    According to Ishchenko, Russia will no longer tolerate the subsidisation of Belarus, so Lukashenko will face a point-blank question – either he really integrates with the Russian Federation, or he will remain one-on-one with the Maidanists and the collapsing economy.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/belarus-can-no-longer-exist-in-the-form-that-it-previously-existed-in/
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:27 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:While many Belorussians may disagree with Lukashenko, I am sure most will realise that there is currently no alternative.

    The fact that both Belarus ad Russia are ready to use military forces indicates that even if a significant percentage of the population is
    somehow indoctrinated the west will not succeed.

    Chechnya was saved, South Ossetia was Saved, Crimea was saved, Half of Syria has been saved, the only screw up was ukropia. Three and a half out of five is a favorable, if not particularly favorable result.

    Chechnya became a hellhole first, South Ossetia was turned into a hellhole earlier by Georgian invasion in the 90s so 2008 was a quick matter, Syria was turned into a hellhole, and Crimea only got away intact, because the Ukraine was threatening to turn into a hellhole with a Western-backed coup and the Crimeans remembered the 2004 Orange revolution, and just the sorry state of the Ukraine for the 23 years prior.

    Belarus is not currently a hellhole, and hasn't been one at all ever since the breakup of the USSR. Their young people are full of delusions about the EU and Hollywood bullshit about America. They don't know how lucky they are. It's really just Lukashenko's fault, that he couldn't evolve the system and didn't know when to leave power.

    The sad fact is that they will have to become a hellhole first, before a strong will for integration with Russia can later take hold.

    I believe many east Ukrainian oblasts are going to just give up on the idea of a Ukrainian state at all in the next few years, if things carry on the way they are. And they certainly will carry on that way. The place has become such a dump, that Russia will have no problem adding territories of it directly, with the will of the people there. Because there's no chance that the west of the country will ever stop being Nazi retards.

    Belarus on the other hand is a unified, homogenous state and there is no sense to divide it or take away it's sovereignty. Simply it has to go through hell and back first before it's people can make up their own minds about which vector is better east or west.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:54 am

    flamming_python wrote:Belarus on the other hand is a unified, homogenous state and there is no sense to divide it or take away it's sovereignty. Simply it has to go through hell and back first before it's people can make up their own minds about which vector is better east or west.

    Their people are not indoctrinated russophobes and that is the main issue. How do you know they would refuse to join the RF, have you made some survey? And regardless, I think you exaggerate the role that the "popular will" plays. The ongoing maidan attempt is a flagrant foreign funded putsch and still they skilfully manage some gullible people to think they are actually working for a brighter future, for empty catchwords life "freedom", "democracy" or "independence", and even manage observers like you to think they legitimately represent the outraged masses of the country. They don't represent the country at all (1/1000 - 1/100 of the population maybe?) but if left unchecked they would drag the country down the sinkhole. How do you know there is not a 70% percent of population in Belarus with extensive family, friends or business ties with Russia that are not politically active, that don't give a damn about the maidan and that would go along a properly explained and mutually beneficial integration process with Russia? It is not only the people revolting in the streets that are to be considered, it is the interests of the whole country and its silent majority that are to be protected. Again, things that revolutionary leftists will never understand...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:12 am

    Contrary to Lukashenka's stubbornness, the GDP of Belarus is $6,000. This is about 60 percent of their Soviet level (a dubious "economic miracle"). In many respects, the Belarusians managed not to degrade to the level of Ukraine only with the help of financial support from Russia at the level of ten percent of Belarusian GDP.
    According to Pryanikov, "this could be compared to Russia receiving $140 billion each year from someone, ten percent of our GDP, or 10 trillion rubles (this is a half of the federal budget)." ..
    Thanks to mineral resources, Kazakhstan has kept at the level of Russia - $9,000. Oil, gas and metals did not let the country fall below the level that they had in 1990.
    https://www.pravdareport.com/world/144919-former_soviet/

    If Kazakhstan starts distancing itself from Russia, it will lose Northern Russian speaking/populated (there r many Russified Kazakhs) areas. W/o a doubt, Putin has contingency plans for that.

    https://www.apn.ru/index.php?newsid=38537  IMO, Lukashenko will be removed sooner rather than later, as he became a liability as never before.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIQRwnGozFs


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:32 pm

    An interesting (even if with a sort ot sardonic tone) analysis of the events of the past few weeks in bielorussia and especially of the fundamental role played by the Russian counter intelligence operations (here called ironically "Fatina dei dentini", i.e. tooth fairy).

    The article is in Italian, but as usual you can read it with an online translator

    https://liberticida.altervista.org/bielorussia-cronache-della-fatina-dei-dentini/
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:39 pm

    https://ukraina.ru/news/20200830/1028723739.html

    Valuable point of view from Rostislav Ishchenko about the reason why Russia "wasted" so much money in Ukraine and other ex soviet states...

    Of course cutting the ties in 1994 would have destroyed ukraine as well, but sometimes idiots can be really dangerous because they do not think at the consequences as long as they can annoy their counterparts...


    Ishchenko explained what Russia was counting on when it invested huge amounts of money in Ukraine


    30.08.2020, 06:40


    Russia invested huge amounts of money in Ukraine and other post-Soviet states, hoping that until Russia became independent of these countries, these republics would not sever economic ties with it. Rostislav Ishchenko, a columnist for the Rossiya Segodnya news agency, told about this in an interview with Ukraina.ru



    These days, there is a lot of talk in the Russian expert community that Moscow makes serious mistakes in its policy in the post-Soviet space, does not interact well with the population of these countries and does not create pro-Russian forces.
    The example of Ukraine in 2013-2014 showed, the expert explained, how easily these ties can be broken, while such a break would be disadvantageous for Kiev.
    “For Russia, this was not only not fatal, but even not particularly painful. Although it was rather painful for some positions. But this is 2014, not 1994. In 1994, this would have killed half of the Russian economy. And the money was invested precisely to ensure that these republics did not do in 1994 what they did in 2014. Russia invested in its future, ”said Ishchenko.
    Now, the political scientist stressed, Russia is pursuing a completely different economic policy with respect to Ukraine, since the situation has changed, and the same is happening with respect to Belarus, because Moscow has reduced its dependence on Minsk.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:48 pm

    The Belarusian economy is heading for the abyss. Lukashenka hopes for Russia again
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3052066.html

    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3051443.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:01 pm

    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/09/03/poland/

    https://vz.ru/world/2020/9/3/1058331.html

    https://vz.ru/opinions/2020/9/2/1058006.html

    https://nvo.ng.ru/gpolit/2020-09-03/12_1107_belorussia.html?print=Y


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:31 pm

    Russia could absorb Belarus amid upheaval

    https://eurasianet.org/heres-looking-at-eaeu-4-belarus-backs-itself-into-trade-corner
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3059939.html

    A few interesting articles here.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:06 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)

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