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Tsavo Lion
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    2020 Belarusian protests

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:23 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python,

    talk about mass delussions...

    I already told you what I think in our exchange on twitter...all they've achieved is bringing back Belorussia back into the fold. The same as with the Hong Kong protests. They've sped up the process of China having direct rule over HK by 20 years (it was suppose to happen in 2040)

    Meanwhile in Wisconsin...

    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1298120947052904448

    What about Wisconsin?

    It's just the globalists formenting a rebellion against Trump

    And they will win in all likelyhood, and Trump won't be able to go through with not recognizing the election results and mobilizing his supporters as he claims.

    With Trump out of the way, the next target is to the east - Moscow.

    This whole episode won't end with Belarussia coming back into the fold, but with Belarussians perceiving Russia as their oppressor.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:26 pm

    kvs wrote:Protests in Belorus have precisely zip to do with Russia.   Trying to extrapolate from Belorus onto Russia is absurd and indicates
    a desire for such BS to happen.  

    I certainly desire Putin to be chucked out of power.

    But not to be replaced with a Western agent

    Because it is the only way to secure Russia's further development and the integration of the post-Soviet space.n

    Putin's approach is an abysmal failure and the same processes that are going on now in Belarus are fermenting in Russia, in Kazakhstan, in Uzbekistan, in Azerbaijan.

    The Ukronazis are still strong for now but the protests will get to them as well.

    So I can see the writing on the wall to be frank, don't fault me for it.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:36 pm

    You only see what you want to see. Not reality.  I asked for sources about growing revolts in Russia but got none.  Belarus protests are obvious to all and it won't result in what you think it will. (Opposition met with US Secretary of State. Becomes even more obvious and won't sit well with average Belarussian).

    Russia is fine. You just live in la la land.  You think this spread is something that is inevitable. That's just nonsense and has no data backing.  It affected countries that are on a string in terms of stability. Russia isn't one of those.  The protests of 100,000 people (not even close to that amount) isn't going to change shit.

    I'm surprised you believe this bullshit. I'm still certain you are simply trolling.

    This shit is standard US Globo push for dominance. The thing is, it works in unstable countries and countries that hasn't dealt with foreign NGO's. Funny enough, Russia was one of the few who banned these NGO's. Not even China did. Now Armenia and Belarus faces the issue of the NGO's. Azerbaijan banned most of them too.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:21 pm

    Commie delusion and sectarianism is really something to behold... blaming Putin for a century of fuck-ups of their own lol1

    The dogs bark, the caravan goes on, as they say...

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:23 pm

    LMFS wrote:Commie delusion and sectarianism is really something to behold... blaming Putin for a century of fuck-ups of their own lol1

    The dogs bark, the caravan goes on, as they say...

    Note how this is exactly the type of BS spread by Navalny and the rest of the liberasts. Supposedly the 1990s were a golden era of
    freedom and lack of corruption but then came Putin and ruined everything. This an example of the contempt these clowns have
    for Russians. They act as if no Russia remembers that the 1990s were a gangster's paradise and that Yeltsin was a comprador stooge
    selling Russia down the river.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:49 pm

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/winner-lukashenko-and-winning-maidan-in-reality-everything-is-just-beginning/

    So there is some belief that Lukashenko won the battle but will lose the war unless he integrates Belarus with Russia. I think there is a third option not listed - Russia getting another pro Russian candidate into power. One of them fled Belarus to Russia but there are apparently a few others. If they can build those ones up, then it will benefit.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:43 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    I certainly desire Putin to be chucked out of power.

    But not to be replaced with a Western agent

    What is your reason for your desire to see Putin gone?
    How should he go?
    Jail? Bloody Revolution? losing elections?

    So if not a western agent like Navalny, Sobchak or the united russia franchise of Uncle Sam cock suckers. Who then?

    flamming_python wrote:
    Because it is the only way to secure Russia's further development and the integration of the post-Soviet space.n

    Putin's approach is an abysmal failure and the same processes that are going on now in Belarus are fermenting in Russia, in Kazakhstan, in Uzbekistan, in Azerbaijan.

    What exactly should have been done and how should have been those things done?

    flamming_python wrote:
    The Ukronazis are still strong for now but the protests will get to them as well.

    So I can see the writing on the wall to be frank, don't fault me for it.

    The sheer fact how Propaganda works and how absurdly well it works  in the West is just mindblowing.

    Despite all the Propaganda and false accusations without any evidence but even with evidence against the West like in MH17, Skripal case, secession of Crimea, russian collusion of US elections or all the "russian" hackers, still the retarded westerns citizens despise Russia and russians. That fact, makes everything far more worse and complicated. I would like to see Ukraine and Belarus being under Russia again like the next guy, but how do you do this without spooking of the already infiltrated post-soviet states into the Hands of US?

    I've also asked where do you live today and how old are you? If that is not a secret.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:43 pm

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1298326664519323648?s=20
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:20 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1298326664519323648?s=20

    To think that Lukasschenko was playing footsie with the UK. What a comprador maggot.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:54 pm

    Interesting article (in italian, but you can read it with an online translator) about Lukashenko and the situation in Bielorussia..

    Below also some considerations from me (I did not summarise the article, I just added some personal opinions).

    https://www.difesaonline.it/geopolitica/analisi/crisi-bielorussa-gli-interessi-le-opzioni-di-mosca-e-il-destino-di-lukashenko

    I do not agree fully with the author about the future of Lukashenko... of course he does not want to be retired, but he should also understand that Russia can grant him and his family the possibility of living safely for the rest of their life... and also that his sons could also have a political future in the Russian Federation if they are able to play according to the rules (especially the younger one, since he is  still to young to be ruined by the ineffective and authoritarian bielorussian management)...

    Even if he does not deserve it, lukashenko can be retired with full honors and given an important position in the security council, in order also to allow him to save his face.

    And concerning the options for Russia, it would be important to drive a reunification process that is perceived as starting from bielorussia (and not imposed from Moscow) with or without Lukashenko.
    In the best scenario with the latter (Lukashenko) starting the process and then passing the ball to a younger prorussian politician that will act as a  transition manager and that having a smaller ego than Lukashenko will also create less problems to relinquish his role as head of an independent state...

    If they are able to repeat a sort of Crimean scenario with the request for reunification started by the bielorussian government/parliament and then approved by the russian parliament they could integrate the 6 bielorussian oblasts (or republics if they want some to include the possibility of having an additional official language) in the Russian Federation (instead of a more complicated (and too big) bielorussian autonomous republic) and the city of Minsk as the fourth federal city...

    They do not need to hurry too much with the official acceptance in Russia as the union state already call for a much greater integration, including a monetary one...

    But they need to hurry on the actual full implementation of the union state....after they start the process and try to more align the system with the Russian one, the official "annexation" will just be a proforma...

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:41 am

    https://www.pravdareport.com/world/144900-poland_belarus/

    Putin statement: Russian MVD (RG) reserve troops r ready to help
    https://www.ng.ru/politics/2020-08-27/1_7949_putin.html?print=Y

    I'm sure there would be FSB & army mil. police troops included as well.

    Historical revisionism: https://nvo.ng.ru/history/2020-08-28/11_1106_belorussia.html?print=Y


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:58 am

    At the request of the President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko, Russia has formed "a certain reserve of law enforcement officers" to help the Belarusian authorities, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on August 27 in an interview with the leading TV channel "Russia" Sergei Brilev.

    https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2020/08/27/838017-rossiya-belorussii
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:16 am

    details: https://ura.news/news/1052447277

    https://iz.ru/1053945/ekaterina-postnikova/ogranichitelnaia-era-kak-belorussiia-vstala-mezhdu-rossiei-i-zapadom


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:07 pm

    alleged Lukashenko family escape desire:
    https://gordonua.com/news/worldnews/eks-razvedchik-kgb-shvets-chleny-semi-lukashenko-na-proshloj-nedele-svjazyvalis-s-ssha-po-povodu-ih-vozmozhnoj-evakuatsii-za-granitsu-1515550.html

    https://lenta.ru/articles/2020/08/14/cruelty/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:51 pm

    Looks like the protests are already dwindling. Used to be "hundred thousand" then became "thousands". Quite the sharp drop. Even in the videos and pics I've seen, it's gotta be about 7 thousand to 10 thousand at best.

    A lot of Polish people involved too. All of them waving the Belarus flag when it was occupied by Nazi Germany.

    Goes to show what they support.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:15 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_paN5zPXS8
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:15 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Interesting article (in italian, but you can read it with an online translator) about Lukashenko and the situation in Bielorussia..

    Below also some considerations from me (I did not summarise the article, I just added some personal opinions).

    https://www.difesaonline.it/geopolitica/analisi/crisi-bielorussa-gli-interessi-le-opzioni-di-mosca-e-il-destino-di-lukashenko

    I do not agree fully with the author about the future of Lukashenko... of course he does not want to be retired, but he should also understand that Russia can grant him and his family the possibility of living safely for the rest of their life... and also that his sons could also have a political future in the Russian Federation if they are able to play according to the rules (especially the younger one, since he is  still to young to be ruined by the ineffective and authoritarian bielorussian management)...

    Even if he does not deserve it, lukashenko can be retired with full honors and given an important position in the security council, in order also to allow him to save his face.

    And concerning the options for Russia, it would be important to drive a reunification process that is perceived as starting from bielorussia (and not imposed from Moscow) with or without Lukashenko.
    In the best scenario with the latter (Lukashenko) starting the process and then passing the ball to a younger prorussian politician that will act as a  transition manager and that having a smaller ego than Lukashenko will also create less problems to relinquish his role as head of an independent state...

    If they are able to repeat a sort of Crimean scenario with the request for reunification started by the bielorussian government/parliament and then approved by the russian parliament they could integrate the 6 bielorussian oblasts (or republics if they want some to include the possibility of having an additional official language) in the Russian Federation (instead of a more complicated (and too big) bielorussian autonomous republic) and the city of Minsk as the fourth federal city...

    They do not need to hurry too much with the official acceptance in Russia as the union state already call for a much greater integration, including a monetary one...

    But they need to hurry on the actual full implementation of the union state....after they start the process and try to more align the system with the Russian one, the official "annexation" will just be a proforma...

    This would be for Russia the ideal way to handle it.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:19 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Interesting article (in italian, but you can read it with an online translator) about Lukashenko and the situation in Bielorussia..

    Below also some considerations from me (I did not summarise the article, I just added some personal opinions).

    https://www.difesaonline.it/geopolitica/analisi/crisi-bielorussa-gli-interessi-le-opzioni-di-mosca-e-il-destino-di-lukashenko

    I do not agree fully with the author about the future of Lukashenko... of course he does not want to be retired, but he should also understand that Russia can grant him and his family the possibility of living safely for the rest of their life... and also that his sons could also have a political future in the Russian Federation if they are able to play according to the rules (especially the younger one, since he is  still to young to be ruined by the ineffective and authoritarian bielorussian management)...

    Even if he does not deserve it, lukashenko can be retired with full honors and given an important position in the security council, in order also to allow him to save his face.

    And concerning the options for Russia, it would be important to drive a reunification process that is perceived as starting from bielorussia (and not imposed from Moscow) with or without Lukashenko.
    In the best scenario with the latter (Lukashenko) starting the process and then passing the ball to a younger prorussian politician that will act as a  transition manager and that having a smaller ego than Lukashenko will also create less problems to relinquish his role as head of an independent state...

    If they are able to repeat a sort of Crimean scenario with the request for reunification started by the bielorussian government/parliament and then approved by the russian parliament they could integrate the 6 bielorussian oblasts (or republics if they want some to include the possibility of having an additional official language) in the Russian Federation (instead of a more complicated (and too big) bielorussian autonomous republic) and the city of Minsk as the fourth federal city...

    They do not need to hurry too much with the official acceptance in Russia as the union state already call for a much greater integration, including a monetary one...

    But they need to hurry on the actual full implementation of the union state....after they start the process and try to more align the system with the Russian one, the official "annexation" will just be a proforma...

    That amounts to an annexation of a sovereign country.

    I doubt that the Belarussians would be for this scenario. They want to remain close to Russia, but as equals, not as some oblasts to be dictated to. Why would they agree to a dissolution of their country and their collective bargaining power?

    On the whole a terrible solution. Belarus has never been part of Russia proper - which traditionally started from about Smolensk and eastwards, why should it become so now?

    The only good solution would be if the neo-imperialist oligarch clans in Russia are thrown out of power, as well as Lukashenko and his people in Belarus, and then we can have some sort of genuine economic union that works for the respective industries of both countries. The same internal gas/oil prices for Belarus as for Russia, and full access to the Russian market for Belarussian enterprises and vice-versa.
    Belarus would keep its sovereignty but be completely integrated with the Russian economy. I doubt pro-Western political forces would make much headway there, on the condition that you have a system of people's democracy there and in Russia that is capable of solving growing social contradictions, allowing elections of deputies and acting on feedback from the people about various issues.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:42 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    That amounts to an annexation of a sovereign country.

    The only good solution would be if the neo-imperialist oligarch clans in Russia are thrown out of power.

    Why the hell would you not approve of reclaiming the Russian empire's lost oblasts? What is wrong with you?

    Are you some sort of neo marxist or liberal?

    There are not "neo imperialist oligarchs" just patriotic and dutiful Russian citizens who want to restore the glory of Russia. So what if they
    have to kill a few people in order to reclaim their land, so what if they have to wage wars to turn europe into a buffer zone against the pindos, its not like the modern europeans deserve the land they live one.

    Russia is the last civilised nation in europe, all others are corrupt liberal hell holes. If Russia can save people from the west then Russia deserves to annex the country the saved.

    That you mention your filthy little wish for Russia to be less expansionist in face of the west and risk collapse in order to do so is nothing short of disgusting.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:49 pm

    Um, it's not annexation if Belarus agrees to it. An annexation is a unilateral act made effective by actual possession and legitimized by general recognition. Becasicly forcing your control over the land.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:That amounts to an annexation


    If only people would bother checking the meaning the words instead of parroting Western propaganda  Rolling Eyes

    Annexation:

    possession taken of a piece of land or a country, usually by force or without permission

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/annexation

    How can a repetition of the Crimean scenario be annexation, when the Crimeans voted to reunite with Russia under UN preconditions of self determination? In the case of Belarus, there is not even another state involved, they would ingress in the RF if that was their wish. Of course, if you allow foreign paid russophobic propaganda to set the tone in the country this is highly unlikely to happen.

    of a sovereign country.

    Sovereign to live off Russian subsidies and totally depend on the Russian market.

    I doubt that the Belarussians would be for this scenario. They want to remain close to Russia, but as equals, not as some oblasts to be dictated to. Why would they agree to a dissolution of their country and their collective bargaining power?

    They are equals, that is why they belong in Russia. Russians do not need two, three or thirty countries.

    Common people will be dictated all the same, but will instead get a competent government, protection, a big labour market, economic development and a future they don't have as a miniature country, landlocked and surrounded by hostile nations everyone trying to absorb their territory. To this, add the current pre-war conditions and crucial interest of the West in using them against Russia, the country on its own is toast. The only ones losing out with the integration are the regional elites, those that communists are interestingly so eager to protect pretty much everywhere. But once they understand they are going to be liquidated unless they join forces with Russia, they may stop making so much resistance.

    The only good solution would be...

    That is where the commie fantasy starts and hard cold realities of state policy are thrown out the window. Russia has no need to feed anyone at the expense of their budget. They have been doing that for decades and decades, just for the "brotherly people" to think they deserve it just for the fact of existing and, emboldened by the apparent interest of Russia to keep them close, flirt with the West to squeeze something more of their "special" relationship. Enough is enough, that is the bottom line from now onwards and Belarus better plan accordingly. If they want to be yet another bunch of disorientated Russians faking they are "Europeans", they will follow the same fate of Ukraine, the West has no problem with additional cheap labour and resources. What they don't need are more competitors for their markets nor they consider Belarusians their own kind. Go ask some American to place the country in the map or to tell you the differences between Russians and Belarusians, that will be funny.

    I doubt pro-Western political forces would make much headway there, on the condition that you have a system of people's democracy there and in Russia that is capable of solving growing social contradictions, allowing elections of deputies and acting on feedback from the people about various issues.

    They signed the union state for a deep integration long ago and Luka was the darling of the marxist collective, where is the problem? It was not the "people" that rejected to implement the integration, but the elites that have instead performed their pro-Western push. "Real" democracy has zero to do with this, as with most other facts of state life in the real world.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um, it's not annexation is Belarus agrees to it. An annexation is a unilateral act made effective by actual possession and legitimized by general recognition. Becasicly forcing your control over the land.

    A pindo saying something that is true and python goin mad in the same week, what the hell is going on on this forum?

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um, it's not annexation is Belarus agrees to it. An annexation is a unilateral act made effective by actual possession and legitimized by general recognition. Becasicly forcing your control over the land.

    A pindo saying something that is true and python goin mad in the same week, what the hell is going on on this forum?
    Ehehe

    Anyway in my original post I used the word "annexation"  with "", just to show that I don't believe it is one, even if in the west they'll call it so.

    The correct word should be reunification, otherwise we will have to call what happened in Germany also annexation of DDR (Deutsche Demokratische Republik, i.e. East Germany) from BRD (Bundesrepublik Deutschland (i.e. West Germany).

    Anyway, I agree with LMFS, you cannot call a country only surviving with subsidies and almost totally dependent on another country as a sovereign country.

    This is just some idiocy of the last century, where a lot of small countries believe they have the same geopolitical weight of a major power just because they have a seat in the UN...
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:58 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    That amounts to an annexation of a sovereign country.

    The only good solution would be if the neo-imperialist oligarch clans in Russia are thrown out of power.

    Why the hell would you not approve of reclaiming the Russian empire's lost oblasts? What is wrong with you?

    Are you some sort of neo marxist or liberal?

    There are not "neo imperialist oligarchs" just patriotic and dutiful Russian citizens who want to restore the glory of Russia. So what if they
    have to kill a few people in order to reclaim their land, so what if they have to wage wars to turn europe into a buffer zone against the pindos, its not like the modern europeans deserve the land they live one.

    Russia is the last civilised nation in europe, all others are corrupt liberal hell holes. If Russia can save people from the west then Russia deserves to annex the country the saved.

    That you mention your filthy little wish for Russia to be less expansionist in face of the west and risk collapse in order to do so is nothing short of disgusting.

    First of all Belarussians would not agree. And Russians and Belarussians are basically one people, and the Russians and Belarussians in their majority agree to that statement - why then would I go against the wishes of my own people?
    Let the Belarussians try with a new leader. More than likely it will lead to the collapse of their economy and the export of 15% of their population if not more as a labour army to Poland and Russia. But the point is they have to experience such a distopia for themselves, as we in Russia did in the 90s with Yeltsin.

    Secondly, I think Russia will be much more successful by building a good system, and then exporting it to other ex-Soviet states - without trying to incorporate their territory into its own, which few people would agree to.
    Most people would agree to a sort of Soviet Union-lite if it shows it can be a successful model and this would guarantee Russia's prosperity far better than some land-grabs or annexations that will only lead to a divided society, avenues for destablization from abroad and bitter regional populations. Think Baltic states. Why would I want to turn Belarus into a future alienated Baltic chihuahua?

    Third of all I'm not for the Russian Empire; don't you know Russian society rejected this model in 1917. Why would we want to return to it? Let our neighbours keep their sovereignty, but a tight economic/political/military union I'm certainly in favour of, on a voluntary basis. If they're not in favour of it; it's their loss. But for it to even be a loss to them, first of all Russia has to be some sort of model and advanced society in comparison to everyone else's. At the moment it's not. In the interim period I'm fully in favour of advancing Russia to the level of Japan or South Korea and using the increasingly backwards in comparison ex-Soviet nations as manpower and immigration pools for colonizing the 3/4 of Russian territory that we already do have with no issues, but that is sparsely populated. We can also use the decadent hell holes in Europe for this purpose too; fill out Siberia with some Greeks and Germans.

    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:22 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    The only ex-Soviet country I would be in favour of adding the territory to Russia directly would be the East Ukrainian oblasts; as they are increasingly wanting to add themselves anyway and as the country is a total circus and failure that will only get worse. Truly the contradictions between east and west seem unsolvable in the Ukraine so this country is just doomed to be a failed state.
    Belarus on the other hand is moderately successful, Kazakhstan is moderately successful. Why interfere?

    Bielorussia is not successful. It survived only because Russia was pumping there 8 billions US dollars each year.
    If they want to be an independent country they have to survive without that, otherwise they can try and show how they thrive without Russian money (and with the infrastructure and industries built in soviet times that are aging).
    Belorussia had a better living condition in comparison to Russia only in the 90s, because luckily for them they did not have gaidar and chubais.

    If they don't want to join Russia, Russia can use the money to build new industries and infrastructures in its own territory, and finance new research projects.


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