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    2020 Belarusian protests

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:13 pm

    Just for comparison: Germany has 4,9 Million "civil servants". With 85 Million people.

    According to official data the OECD countries got 4.800 beds per 1 Million people, Russia has 8.200.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:16 pm

    2020 Belarusian protests - Page 5 000153
    2020 Belarusian protests - Page 5 000154
    2020 Belarusian protests - Page 5 000345
    Just 3 of the hospitals build in the last few years. I could post more but I´m to lazy.

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    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:10 pm

    Little light shed on situation thumbsup

    Provocateurs again failed to embroil Putin and Lukashenko
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:17 pm

    And why can't Russia invent stuff that has not been invented ? Why does Russia keep on importing computers, smartphones, gadgets that even China, Japan, South Korea can design in house?

    They have similar industries but not as big because their international export sucks thanks to shitty supply lanes and bad commercials. They have the knowledge to make it. Actually pretty much any country with two or three engineering universities has the knowledge to make it.

    Btw Apple use Samsung stuff in its hardwares. Europe is full of Huawei stuff. South korea produce most of elecctronics found in western hardwares.

    It's not up to Putin to make such industries. It's not a communist country anymore. If a smart russian engineer wants to open a business in those fields he has the right.

    Finally you need to invest billions of dollars to succeed. Russian state won't support any of them directly. They need to attract investors.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:17 pm

    Viktor wrote:Little light shed on situation  thumbsup

    Provocateurs again failed to embroil Putin and Lukashenko

    That makes Luk-ass-shenko sound like he is not really at fault. No, he is at fault and is embroiling himself with Russia
    by trying to use NATzO as his muscle. He has sold out completely and needs to be severely punished. Real economic
    sanctions on Belorus will result in his regime falling apart. Unlike Ukraine, there is not ethnic component with its own
    religion, history and identity to push an anti-Russian line. Luk-ass-shenko's whole shtick has been that Belorus did not
    suffer the depression of Russia and others regions of the ex-USSR because he did not engage in shock therapy voodoo.
    That is the same as relying on the economy of Belorus to justify his power. Russia can take the economy away with
    sanctions. For real and not like NATzO's pathetic attempt to shut Russia down from 2014 on.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    And why can't Russia invent stuff that has not been invented ? Why does Russia keep on importing computers, smartphones, gadgets that even China, Japan, South Korea can design in house?

    They have similar industries but not as big because their international export sucks thanks to shitty supply lanes and bad commercials. They have the knowledge to make it. Actually pretty much any country with two or three engineering universities has the knowledge to make it.

    Btw Apple use Samsung stuff in its hardwares. Europe is full of Huawei stuff. South korea produce most of elecctronics found in western hardwares.

    It's not up to Putin to make such industries. It's not a communist country anymore. If a smart russian engineer wants to open a business in those fields he has the right.

    Finally you need to invest billions of dollars to succeed. Russian state won't support any of them directly. They need to attract investors.


    Russia does not have massive exports because NATzO won't allow them through dirty tricks and global propaganda trying to paint all Russian
    products as trash and Russians as being Nth rate in science and engineering. Don't even try to pin this as a Russian fail. The products that it
    does export are in high demand around the world and that includes things like trucks. That Russia does not export race cars is not any
    sort of fail.

    Russia is doing fine without being dependent on exports. It's GDP does not depend on exports and that includes oil and gas which together
    account for less than 6% of Russia's GDP and Russia consumes 50% of the oil it produces.

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    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:59 pm

    Isos wrote:It's not up to Putin to make such industries. It's not a communist country anymore. If a smart russian engineer wants to open a business in those fields he has the right.

    Finally you need to invest billions of dollars to succeed. Russian state won't support any of them directly. They need to attract investors.

    IDK if you have lived in Russia. I did. Business environment in Russia is very tough, so security is a requirement. Baseball bats, knuckle busters, sidearms and Kalashnikovs are often a part of the picture.

    There’s one thing that’s common for all success stories in Russian business. All of these require staying on the good side of powerful men in the State. This involves growing on the government’s contracts (e.g. the case of the rise of the Kaspersky Lab) or just staying below the radar.

    Some very successful and resourceful people didn’t manage to keep their business below the radar, and found themselves in very rough waters. One of the most powerful men during the early years of Putin’s presidency, Vladimir Yevtushenkov, was one of these. He lost his highly profitable oil company in what looked like a classical “bulldogs fight under the carpet” to someone who allegedly tasked with making it our President’s personal money machine (a totally unsubstantiated claim, of course).

    President Putin’s "contract with the nation" stipulates protection of the oligarchical property. He never supported the idea of confiscating oligarchical assets. The single occurrences of nationalization like the YUKOS affair were punitive measures against his personal enemies, and were framed like purely criminal (tax evasion), not political cases.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:12 am

    RTN wrote:One of the most powerful men during the early years of Putin’s presidency, Vladimir Yevtushenkov, was one of these. He lost his highly profitable oil company in what looked like a classical “bulldogs fight under the carpet” to someone who allegedly tasked with making it our President’s personal money machine (a totally unsubstantiated claim, of course).

    LOL!!  You use what you admit to be a "totally unsubstantiated claim" to bolster your argument?   Laughing   Yevtushenkov was in all probability a thief and a scoundrel, and rejected the general message of Putins ultimatum to the Oligarchs (ie you keep your loot from the 90s but now you must obey the law and keep out of politics) in the misguided quest ofr more wealth and power. He clearly paid the price for being a greedy selfish prick   Laughing

    RTN wrote:President Putin’s "contract with the nation" stipulates protection of the oligarchical property. He never supported the idea of confiscating oligarchical assets. The single occurrences of nationalization like the YUKOS affair were punitive measures against his personal enemies, and were framed like purely criminal (tax evasion), not political cases.

    Another big LOL!!  How do you explain what happened to the big robber barons like Berezovsky, Gazinsky and Khordorkovsky?  Putin read the riot act to these bastards and they essentially laughed in his face and resolved to play their usual games.  They learned their lessons however....

    Putin respects private property, but Oligarchic wealth is a special case.  Russia in 2000 wasn't in a condition to endure a bruising war between wealthy empowered thieves (who had the backing of the Western financial cartels) and a new post-Yelstin gov.  Giving the thieves an amnesty was the only workable option.  The stupid greedy oligarchs fell, while the smart compliant ones (like Abramovich) prospered.  Its was a faustian bargain to be sure, but it worked, much to the eternal rage of our money cartels and their satraps who nominally govern our nations.

    BTW I don't give a flying f_ck if you've lived in Russia.  That doesn't mean you have any authority or that your opinion has any more value than a steaming dog turd.  Bill Browder, may he burn in Hell for eternity, can say the same yet everyone KNOWS that he is a wretch and a thief and a liar, and most likely a murderer.

    The dogs bark and the caravan moves on, and fools like you are treated with the contempt that you deserve.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:24 am

    And why can't Russia invent stuff that has not been invented ?

    Buying off the shelf stuff that works and gets the job done is vastly superior than having to design and build everything you have from scratch on your own.

    How many computers has Germany designed.... how many computers has Britain designed... how many computers has France designed... they didn't go through financial collapse during the 1990s so what is their excuse.... currently the EU is tied to Microsoft products... they are supposed to hold competitions to see who gets the contracts for computers for government departments in the EU but only Microsoft can provide the software needed so there is no competition and they know it.

    Microsoft software is used by the US to spy on all its allies and there is nothing they can do about it...

    They try with Russia but it is harder because there are no back doors in their software designed for the NSA to snoop.

    Why does Russia keep on importing computers, smartphones, gadgets that even China, Japan, South Korea can design in house?

    First of all they do make their own hardware in many systems, but for the most part they... LIKE THE US AND EU buy their hardware from China and Japan and South Korea... why wouldn't they?

    What prevented Russian companies from taking advantage of that same cheap, educated labor force?

    What Russian companies? Most were state owned and were taken over by thieves more interested in asset stripping the factories they got ownership of and then pissing off to the UK to buy a soccer team and moan and bleat about terrible Putin is...

    Racist??? You have astonishing electronic telepathic skills.

    Yeah, I can't see your face so you might be black which means you can't be racist... which makes you even more racist.... let me guess my wife is black so I can't be racist... some of my best friends are black so I can't be racist... I am black so I can't be racist... what you said was racist... it does not matter who said it.

    Such massive political mandate, such finessed instincts - if only they were deployed more in the temporal than in the spiritual

    Blah blah blah... is that you Hillary?

    According to official data the OECD countries got 4.800 beds per 1 Million people, Russia has 8.200.

    More importantly Russian people get access to those beds unlike the 50 odd million Americans who just lost their jobs and therefore also their health insurance...

    Finally you need to invest billions of dollars to succeed. Russian state won't support any of them directly. They need to attract investors.

    And why would they risk all that money when there is no guarantee they would come up with something better than what is already available and in mass production?

    But Putin is to blame... Rolling Eyes

    There’s one thing that’s common for all success stories in Russian business. All of these require staying on the good side of powerful men in the State.

    Hahahaha... whereas in the west powerful people never kill... just lots of unexplained suicides right?

    He lost his highly profitable oil company in what looked like a classical “bulldogs fight under the carpet” to someone who allegedly tasked with making it our President’s personal money machine (a totally unsubstantiated claim, of course).

    Which he probably stole from someone else who disappeared or just wanted his wife and family back...

    President Putin’s "contract with the nation" stipulates protection of the oligarchical property. He never supported the idea of confiscating oligarchical assets. The single occurrences of nationalization like the YUKOS affair were punitive measures against his personal enemies, and were framed like purely criminal (tax evasion), not political cases.

    Of course because there is no way any of the rich people could have been involved in criminal activity... they were all framed because they didn't contribute to his pretend fund and dacha on the lake... BTW the sunshine makes your tinfoil hat sparkle... looks so pretty.

    Belarusian president says union state with Russia impossible

    The nation is not ready for this and will never be, Belarusian president said

    Of course he says that... if the two countries combine there is no way he could continue to do what he is doing... there would be accountability and he wouldn't be able to crush the media and opposition so easily... he might lose an election... which would be unacceptable.

    I would say Russia should reduce ties from mates rates to non hostile neighbour levels and wait for him to be replaced... it will happen eventually... no need to force it... let them decide for themselves what they want to do.

    In the mean time focus on improving things in Russia for Russians...
    Regular
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    Post  Regular on Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:30 am

    As I said before- Putin brought stability, not radical reforms or changes.
    In 20 years Russia gained stability and unity.
    Putin is capitalist, government is capitalist, life in Russia is capitalist and it has all the benefits and drawbacks of it.
    Immigrants in Russia do dirtiest jobs, they are exploited to the point they die from exhaustion and this is capitalist too. If you start construction company and hire them, then you are raking dough. Poor Russians are only poor because it's their fault that they can't use the system. I know people who became millionaires by opening automatic car washes in Russia and it required almost no skill, just research and some investment.

    It is still better self regulating and dynamic economy than what it was under Soviet Union where money was not as important as knowing the right people.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:22 pm

    The West (and the communists) interestingly criticise Putin because he supposedly rules supported by the elite... but is there any country where the elites do not rule?

    The important thing is that in Russia at a certain point the elites understood they needed to restore the rule of law and change from the oligarchic system of power to a bureaucratic one if they wanted to survive. Putin is in charge of it and he is doing the right things at the time when they can realistically be implemented, not trying to be 100% correct in the theory and a total failure in the practice. This is much better than trying to change all the way the system works overnight, generates muss less resistance and allows everyone to adapt.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:16 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Little light shed on situation  thumbsup

    Provocateurs again failed to embroil Putin and Lukashenko

    That makes Luk-ass-shenko sound like he is not really at fault.   No, he is at fault and is embroiling himself with Russia
    by trying to use NATzO as his muscle.   He has sold out completely and needs to be severely punished.   Real economic
    sanctions on Belorus will result in his regime falling apart.   Unlike Ukraine, there is not ethnic component with its own
    religion, history and identity to push an anti-Russian line.   Luk-ass-shenko's whole shtick has been that Belorus did not
    suffer the depression of Russia and others regions of the ex-USSR because he did not engage in shock therapy voodoo.
    That is the same as relying on the economy of Belorus to justify his power.   Russia can take the economy away with
    sanctions.  For real and not like NATzO's pathetic attempt to shut Russia down from 2014 on.  


    Lukashenko has its fault in this and specifically his lack of faith in fatherland needs to be restored. I think he either plays a game for the purpose of it or he should have been more

    wiser.

    We will see what happens next.

    Lukashenka spoke about relations with Russia after the elections
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:47 pm


    Lukashenko is certified retard, this is not news

    Fact that Russia still hasn't disposed of him and replaced him with someone more useful says more about Russia than him though...

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Lukashenko is certified retard, this is not news

    Fact that Russia still hasn't disposed of him and replaced him with someone more useful says more about Russia than him though...


    A stupid guy is more easily manipulated than a smart one. That's basically the story of Putin and Oligarchs who tried to make him the new Yeltsin.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:10 pm

    Well Lukashenko has essentially declared a landslide victory in the elections, taking over 80% of the vote according to preliminary results. There are protests and clashes with Police in several cities but it's not yet clear just how big they are and whether they'll be a threat to his rule

    Video from Minsk
    https://twitter.com/belteanews/status/1292558388870750210
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:42 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Well Lukashenko has essentially declared a landslide victory in the elections, taking over 80% of the vote according to preliminary results. There are protests and clashes with Police in several cities but it's not yet clear just how big they are and whether they'll be a threat to his rule

    Video from Minsk
    https://twitter.com/belteanews/status/1292558388870750210

    NATzO's fake stream media loves to claim Putin is a tyrant even though his polling numbers of around 68% reflect his popular support.
    There is no way that 80% of Belorussians support Lukashenko. Maybe he has 2/3 support sort of like Putin assuming he is actually
    popular, but his behaviour over the last 10 years should have eroded support. So I would expect something like 50% support.
    Of course the NATzO fake stream media will not raise discussion on this aspect.

    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:05 am

    I think Lukashenko is finished even if he manages to suppress protests, which I'm guessing he won't hesitate to do. But I doubt he can last for long just based on force.

    It depends how much support he really has....the latest videos show a fairly large crowd in Minsk

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:29 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Lukashenko is certified retard, this is not news

    Fact that Russia still hasn't disposed of him and replaced him with someone more useful says more about Russia than him though...


    A stupid guy is more easily manipulated than a smart one. That's basically the story of Putin and Oligarchs who tried to make him the new Yeltsin.

    Problem is for Putin he is blocking the way for the Union state, Russia wants to add Belarus to the federation.

    He is in the way of this, Union state would mean he losses a lot of his power and he doesn't want to give anything up.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:38 am

    Viktor wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Little light shed on situation  thumbsup

    Provocateurs again failed to embroil Putin and Lukashenko

    That makes Luk-ass-shenko sound like he is not really at fault.   No, he is at fault and is embroiling himself with Russia
    by trying to use NATzO as his muscle.   He has sold out completely and needs to be severely punished.   Real economic
    sanctions on Belorus will result in his regime falling apart.   Unlike Ukraine, there is not ethnic component with its own
    religion, history and identity to push an anti-Russian line.   Luk-ass-shenko's whole shtick has been that Belorus did not
    suffer the depression of Russia and others regions of the ex-USSR because he did not engage in shock therapy voodoo.
    That is the same as relying on the economy of Belorus to justify his power.   Russia can take the economy away with
    sanctions.  For real and not like NATzO's pathetic attempt to shut Russia down from 2014 on.  


    Lukashenko has its fault in this and specifically his lack of faith in fatherland needs to be restored. I think he either plays a game for the purpose of it or he should have been more

    wiser.

    We will see what happens next.

    Lukashenka spoke about relations with Russia after the elections


    You still do not get it who Lukashenko is?

    The big problem here is that Lukashenko's true fatherland is Ukraine.



    Since at least 2014 he has been showing his true colors.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:43 am

    Russia would probably become stronger with Belarus becoming a part like the Crimea did, but it is hardly the end of Russia if it does not.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:00 am

    So far the protests, although fairly large in Minsk haven't been really massive. Last reports (around 2 am local time) said, the Police had dispersed the protesters and cleared the main square.

    We'll have to wait to see what happens on Monday...

    If Lukashenko stays on, Russia will have a pretty good chance to extract concessions from him. He can't really afford a major economic crises on top of a political one

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:06 am

    The is no way the west will be prepared to subsidise Belarus the way Russia subsidises the whole country, and they have spend decades demonising him has Putins man and an evil dictator... even though he wins the elections.

    Russia has plenty of time.... forcing the issue would be counter productive, though certainly reducing the quality of relations if they are not interested in better relations could make them realise what is at stake but equally it could turn them against Russia and effectively push them into the hands of the west... who will asset strip them and use them like the US uses Guam... an air base in a useful place...

    The problem with meeting your hero is that you find out they are just people and as just people are not as good when they write their own words instead of getting to read smart funny things from a script...

    The sooner Belarus learns the American dream is really only for 1% of Americans and you can't be awake for it it looses its lustre...
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:39 am

    GarryB wrote:The sooner Belarus learns the American dream is really only for 1% of Americans and you can't be awake for it it looses its lustre...
    The regular Belarussian realizes that fully well. Just that US and UK intel has made deep inroads inside Belarus's government.
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:21 pm

    MINSK, August 10. /TASS/. Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko said on Monday that protests on Sunday evening had been orchestrated by means of telephone calls from Poland, the United Kingdom, and the Czech Republic.

    “We traced calls from abroad, and as a former intelligence officer you know that. Calls came from Poland, Great Britain, and the Czech Republic to control, I beg your pardon, sheep: they don’t understand what they are doing and are easy to be controlled,” BelTA agency quoted him as saying at a meeting with chairman of the CIS Executive Secretariat Sergei Lebedev, who headed a CIS observer mission at Sunday’s presidential elections.

    According to Lukashenko, Russian, Polish and Ukrainian citizens attempted to take part in mass protests that took place in Belarus.

    “I’m not going to mention Poland: they’ve already settled down there, trying to pull the strings as well. I’m not going to talk about Ukraine: people came from there. I’m sure this is not state policy, however, there are many “Maidan-crazy” people over there whom I’ve already mentioned. Unfortunately, some people came from Russia as well,” Lukashenko said, quoted by BelTA news agency.

    Lukashenko has vowed to prevent Maidan-like events and appropriately respond to attempts to tear the country apart.

    “I said that no Maidan-like events would take place here, no matter how much some might want it to happen. So everyone needs to calm down,” Lukashenko said.

    The head of state pledged to adequately respond to attempts to destabilize the situation in Belarus. “We won’t let anyone tear the country apart,” he added.


    https://geopolitics.news/europe/lukashenko-says-protests-were-orchestrated-from-poland-uk-czech-republic/
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:11 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:I think Lukashenko is finished even if he manages to suppress protests, which I'm guessing he won't hesitate to do. But I doubt he can last for long just based on force.

    It depends how much support he really has....the latest videos show a fairly large crowd in Minsk

    He's done

    Any state is based on law, authority and violence

    Luka has lost the first two through falsification and covidiocy respectively, and the final one by itself is not enough.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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