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    Indias options for new fighters

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:07 am

    In addition the AESA fans affirm that AESA are more resistant to jamming or other electronic countermeasures...

    Again I do not know if this is the case or if it is a matter of marketing. (E.g. I want the latest iPhone even if my current smartphone meet all my current and future requirements...)

    Not marketing at all.

    You don't know if your radar meet all the requirements because you don't know the capabilities of enemy jammers. That's what matters.

    AESA is more protected against jamming than pesa or mecanical radars because it can work on different frequencies at the same time. That's a fact.

    If the enemy jammers can jamm your radar, you will lose big. Egyptian sa-6 were very good but became pretty useless once israeli found out what frequency they work on and made effective jammers.

    Russian AD relies a lot of ground based radar so they better be sure that Nato jammers can't jamm them totally. That's why you invest in new type of radars, datalinks, C2...

    Radars/jammers are constantly evolving. It's not a question of AESA vs the other type of radars but your radars vs the enemy jammers. For now Irbis is enough but if they find out it can be jammed by nato jammers they will switch very fast for a Byelka aesa or a new type of photonic radar which will also face new type of jammers.

    At end you could end up with being in need of very first type of radars because the very newest jammers are not effective against them. For exemple against stealth they found out that they needed old p-18 radars.

    If all the armies go for photonic radars and jammers then a mecanical radar from the 70s will be very good because they will be focused on the photonic spectre of detection and it would very expebsive to switch for the radar spectre of signal...
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:40 am

    No, Irbis wont be jammed simply and they will switch it to some AESA.  They never did that cause they are smarter than that.  They never did that with ANY of their radar systems.  That just not how it works.

    They just adjust the subsystems that allows countermeasures and ways to absorb the hit of the EW systems.  Have you heard of ECM and ECCM?  That is what that is.

    Biggest example is the Zaslon radar of the MiG-31. Once the enemy figured out what there was for it thanks to that pos defector, all they did was made some adjustments to the radar itself - changed some of the internal electronics. Now they did that again with Zalson AM which is far better than initial Zalson.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:44 pm

    Primarily because the Mig 29UPG and the Su 30MKI are not plug and play. Russia will have to convert them to plug and play first

    I think you are confusing the concept of plug and play.

    Plug and Play means you upload the driver software so the computer will recognise the hardware you are about to plug in to the system. Its features. Its capabilities. What information and power and data it needs from the computer (aircraft) and what information and data it generates and transmits back to the computer/aircraft.

    If you are plug and play adding an AESA radar it means that you can just upload the driver, take off the existing radar and put your new radar on and it will work seamlessly.

    If the MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI are not plug and play... which we assume they are not, then you have to install some new hardware interface equipment to convert the data and signals from the new radar in a way that the aircraft thinks it is the old radar... but more powerful and longer ranged...

    The thing is that even with plug and play an AESA radar is going to need a shed load more power and rather more efficient cooling systems too, and likely the bandwidth of data coming from the radar will be dramatically increased because of the larger volume of airspace it can cover.

    But that is OK... if they integrated French and Israeli avionics to the aircraft there should not be any problems integrating Indian AESA radars... India developed the AESA and the Russians designed and built the planes so together both parts should be known inside out.

    Pro west mafia could not sell the F 18 or the F 16. British plane was there in the form of Typhoon. It didn't qualify because of the lack of credible ground attack weapons.

    The F-18 and F-16 are older than the MiG-29, and the Typhoon is only partly British... meaning components from countries that could block India from getting it...

    As I said the whole programme was made up to reduce the asking price for the Rafale and it really didn't work.

    And India remains by far the largest purchaser of Russian cruise missiles and air to air missiles. I'm not even including JV projects like Brahmos. India purchased US$ 2 billion worth of missiles from Russia in 2019 itself.

    I honestly think India should focus more on an IADS and a joint venture for long range AAMs with Russia using scramjet motors. They are already looking at hypersonic Brahmos II which means scramjet motors anyway...

    Who else internationally would work with India on scramjet motors? Who else even could?

    Yes, but they are not AESA radars.

    But they are. They are electronically scanned because the components can't physically move and each element scans a volume of space individually.

    Think of it as an IR detector for a security system... most have one big IR element looking for moving heat sources... they don't care where the burglar is... they just want to know something is moving there... it would be no good for an APS because the APS system needs to know where the threat is and what direction it is coming from so it can intercept it. Imagine an IR detector with 1,000 elements each covering a sector of the room... the elements that detect the heat source can be used to determine precisely in that room where the threat happens to be. With an APS sensor it is active radar... it sends out a weak radar signal and can detect the reflections from within 100m... so the fixed element that detect the incoming target can determine the angle of the incoming threat and the radio signal return gives range and the dopplar effect on the signal gives speed... that is an AESA radar except it doesn't scan as such... it radiates all the time...

    You don't have to convert every single MBT. In a tank battalion if you incorporate aircraft type AESA radar into just 1/4th of the total number of tanks that should be enough.

    But why? It would be incredibly expensive but totally pointless... why are MBTs not fitted with aircraft radar now?

    A MBT doesn't care about a plane flying 100km away... and most helos will fly too low to be detected reliably more than 5-6km away... it is like suggesting putting 1m thick armour on aircraft... stop any modern AAM or SAM from shooting it down and air defence guns would be useless too...


    Then these tanks and possibly even a few BMPT that have AESA radars can carry out the surveillance part and share the composite picture with the other tanks in the battalion.

    Picture of what?

    Radar at ground level is terrible for picking up ground targets... most radars on ground vehicles are for detecting incoming artillery or enemy aircraft like on SPAAGs and SAMs.

    For self defence the existing types are relatively cheap and simple and do what is needed to get the job done.

    As an example the AESA radar in development for the MiG35 will have worse detection capability (just because it is smaller and less powerful (there is no space for a bigger one and also because the engine cannot provide more energy.....)).

    Jet engines are often fitted with equipment to take power from the engine... jet engines have shafts on which the blades or disks are mounted... connecting those to electric motors effectively becomes a generator... the amount of power you can generate is determined by that generator and it is pretty clear the old generators were not designed for modern AESA radars and a full Avionics suite, but it is not impossible to create a new more powerful generator... or one for each engine.

    AESA and PESA radars have very small sidelobes which makes jamming difficult.

    AESA is more protected against jamming than pesa or mecanical radars because it can work on different frequencies at the same time. That's a fact.

    PESA radars can operate in different frequencies within its operational bandwidth... and with electronic scanning can simultaneously scan down at ground targets in frequencies suitable for detecting and tracking ground targets while at the same time scan level and upwards in frequencies suitable for tracking air targets, or checking weather conditions and air moisture content....

    An AESA radar has thousands of individual radar emitters that can modulate different frequencies and wave forms, and each emitter has noise filters so the information an AESA radar generates is already clean before it gets to the computers for processing and display... but having all those electronics means it also gets very hot very quickly so most IR seeking missiles that are tail chasers will be able to hit you nose on if you are using your radar.

    If the enemy jammers can jamm your radar, you will lose big. Egyptian sa-6 were very good but became pretty useless once israeli found out what frequency they work on and made effective jammers.

    Jammers are not always 100% effective... you know the frequency your radar operates at so you know the jamming frequency... having the ability to launch your missiles to home on a jamming signal is an obvious solution... once the jammers are destroyed... continue as usual.

    What the Russians did was give it an optical backup channel to allow the battery to engage the enemy jammers.

    The SA-6 also had one radar vehicle for each battery so when the radar vehicle was hit with a Shrike or HARM then F16s with dumb bombs could come in and destroy the now defenceless launchers.

    SA-11 has guidance radars on each vehicle and optical backup to remedy that.

    Russian AD relies a lot of ground based radar so they better be sure that Nato jammers can't jamm them totally. That's why you invest in new type of radars, datalinks, C2...

    HATO doesn't have that many jamming platforms... most of which will be targeted by long range SAM very early on and taken out. Russia mixes a range of sources of target information within it IADS, and most radar are mobile or part of a protected SAM battery.

    Jamming works both ways too of course.

    For now Irbis is enough but if they find out it can be jammed by nato jammers they will switch very fast for a Byelka aesa or a new type of photonic radar which will also face new type of jammers.

    New radars are more expensive, but would be justified if it was found current radars couldn't get the job done. Clearly they think they have time to make their other options better before putting them in service.

    If all the armies go for photonic radars and jammers then a mecanical radar from the 70s will be very good because they will be focused on the photonic spectre of detection and it would very expebsive to switch for the radar spectre of signal...

    You are assuming there is a way to jam a photonic radar. I suspect they will have trouble jamming it if they can't make their own yet...

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    Post  jhelb on Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:22 pm

    GarryB wrote: I honestly think India should focus more on an IADS and a joint venture for long range AAMs with Russia using scramjet motors. They are already looking at hypersonic Brahmos II which means scramjet motors anyway...

    Who else internationally would work with India on scramjet motors?
    In terms of technology India brings NOTHING to the table. Why should Russia share such critical technology with India and earn huge losses in the process? Russia doesn't need their investment either.

    Indians never made any meaningful contribution to Brahmos. Brahmos II is basically Zircon.

    As and when Russia develops long range AAMs they can at best sell an export version to India. But given the third world mentality of Indians, they will haggle over the price for eternity.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:50 am

    In terms of technology India brings NOTHING to the table. Why should Russia share such critical technology with India and earn huge losses in the process? Russia doesn't need their investment either.

    That is the problem with the racist mindset... white people are smart and black people are dumb, and Russia is white so it has nothing to learn from India.

    The thing is that Russia is probably the whitest country on the planet, yet so many Russians look to europe or the US for technology and development...

    They are already working with India on scramjet engines for the Brahmos II project so adding air to air missiles would only be beneficial for Russia and India.

    India brings demands for higher standards and better products, which alone is valuable to any programme.

    They would also logically invest money and brains into the process too.

    There are clever engineers all round the world... shown pretty clearly by the US trip to the moon and the US programme to develop nuclear bombs... both relied heavily on foreigners... not all of which were white.

    Indians never made any meaningful contribution to Brahmos. Brahmos II is basically Zircon.

    Brahmos upgraded the electronics and guidance of the Yakhont and added land attack capability too, which Russia seemed to think was important because they applied the changes to their Onyx missiles quickly enough. To be clear Brahmos was an upgrade of the export version of Onyx called Yakhont... if the further development of Brahmos was of no value then why bother modifying Onyx at all?

    As and when Russia develops long range AAMs they can at best sell an export version to India. But given the third world mentality of Indians, they will haggle over the price for eternity.

    Doing it your way means Russia has to fund the upgrade and India just buys it off the shelf with no contribution to development and probably a good price too.

    The way I am suggesting, they invest in development and get the missiles they want probably along with the licence to produce them.

    Russia can add what they develop to their own programmes... the ramjet powered R-77 was cancelled because the amount of time it would take to get right and reliable... they could have developed a scramjet powered model with much better performance... a scramjet model could double the flight speed of a ramjet or rocket motor powered model which means greatly extending range and performance using a fundamentally similar but better engine.

    The problems and goals are similar... imagine developing a rifle right now... would you invest in making a matchlock first and then with that experience go for a nice flinklock, or would you accept a superior technology has been developed already... do you design the steel or brass case ammo or leap forward with plastic case ammo or caseless ammo or a binary liquid propellent weapon that is far more ambitious...
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:Brahmos upgraded the electronics and guidance of the Yakhont and added land attack capability too, which Russia seemed to think was important because they applied the changes to their Onyx missiles quickly enough.
    Adding land attack capability to Yakhont was not deemed important for the Russian Navy. Russia already had 3M14K and 3M14T . In the near future Kalibr M will be inducted into the Russian Navy.

    Foreign buyers of Yakhont might want land attack capability added to it.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:54 am

    Adding land attack capability to Yakhont was not deemed important for the Russian Navy. Russia already had 3M14K and 3M14T . In the near future Kalibr M will be inducted into the Russian Navy.

    Foreign buyers of Yakhont might want land attack capability added to it.

    Well that is interesting you suggest that because land attack Onyx missiles have been used in Syria against land based targets already... and of course to add land attack capability to Yakhont would require Indian permission, which would likely depend on the customer. Just like sales of Brahmos would also require Indias permission.

    They paid for the tech to be developed they share ownership of the technology. Russia can use it for itself on Onyx and other missiles like Granit and Vulcan etc etc, but cannot export it without Indian permission.

    Great for Russia, and for customers who want that feature they can pay to develop their own version like India did.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:57 am

    Just saw that Vietnam has bought its su-30mk2 for 40 million$ unit price.

    With jammer pods it can be as good as the indian MKI which cost 75 million $. The MK2 variant comes from the second family of su-30 and Mki from the other.

    With a Pero radar (190km) better than the mki's radar it would be the perfect low cost flanker. India should buy some of them for its MMRCA. 124 jets without local production and foreign stuff would cost them less than 5 billion $. Russia may build 24 or more per year so they would get all of them quickly.

    They already operate the su-30 and that would increase their fleet to almost 450 su-30.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:15 am

    But they wont because of two reasons... it is sensible and therefore noone making the decision would make a lot on a bribe, and the Su-30MKK is the version made for China...
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    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:39 am

    GarryB wrote:But they wont because of two reasons... it is sensible and therefore noone making the decision would make a lot on a bribe, and the Su-30MKK is the version made for China...

    Su-30MKK is older than mk2 and doesn't have the Pero radar. Mk2 is better and indians could ask for same engines as their mki which shouldn't increase the cost. They can even ask for the same radar or the irbis and al35 engines.

    The price can be kept low if they don't ask for ToT, local production and foreign stuff.

    We saw how hurry they were to buy quuckly more su-30 and mig-29 after the clash with China/ Pakistan. Bribe is done when they are not in hurry. Right now they need 124 fighter quickly and a 40 million $ su-30 is the best option.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:12 am

    Bars M radar is better.  Initial performance was 140km but bars R which is similar but modified for Russian use is upwards to about 250km.

    $40m per jet is peanuts for a exported Su-30.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Bars M radar is better.  Initial performance was 140km but bars R which is similar but modified for Russian use is upwards to about 250km.

    $40m per jet is peanuts for a exported Su-30.

    India doesn't have the Bars-R. They only have the original M. Or am I wrong ?

    Pero offers 190km against fighters which is enough for a cheap su30. That allows the use of RVV SD at max range against any chinese or pakistani fighter.

    But again I doubt the price would increase if they ask for Bars-R. It is still better than their mki at almost 80 million $.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:57 am

    What I am saying is that Bars-R is a Bars-M russified (meaning no Intel processor used, etc). I am not sure about all of the MKI's but a lot of them are Bars-M now which means they have similar performance (upwards to 250km 2m^2 target).

    Irbis would be way better but probably more expensive. The Pero radar hasn't been seen in a while. If it is still being tested or produced then I imagine it has undergone upgrades since 2008. Probably better range than the presumed 190km as well. And due to its antenna system, should be cheaper to produce as well.

    Who knows. There is so much sensitive information on such devices we may never know. But I would like to see more of this Pero in modern structure.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 am

    Considering the situation 40 million per plane is very cheap and they would be silly not to really think about it...

    But equally MiG has probably be offering MiG-29M2 with Indian production for that price too... it seems they are not interested in affordable and numbers aircraft... MiG-29M2 would have much lower operating costs yet even the bog standard one is fully multirole with air to air and air to ground capability far exceeding any MiG-21 or MiG-27 or Jaguar upgrade, and also having a commonality of design and parts none of those three types can match... the airframe is unified with the MiG-35 so they would be right for any new carrier aircraft... it would be the sort of plane they could produce in large numbers and actually make very affordable...

    But instead they spend 8.5 billion on 36 Rafales... don't get me wrong... Rafales are nice planes of rather good apparent performance, but when you are replacing large numbers of obsolete aircraft while trying to maintain numbers and picking border fights with two neighbour... one of which is now considered at least an economic super power and the other neighbour has the tacit support of a military superpower (ie China and Pakistan respectively) then you need to be much more sensible and practical when spending defence money.

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    Post  medo on Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:30 am

    Su-30MK2 use N001VEP radar, which have 350 km max range and could see 3 m2 RCS at 150 km. It's not much worse than Bars-M in Su-30MKI as both could engage 4 targets simultaneously. Difference is in peak power as N001 VEP have 6 kW peak power, while export Bars-M have 4,5 kW peak power. EGSP-6A transmitter from Bars-M could work with 7 kW peak power and most probably russian Bars-R work with full power of 7 kW together with other changes and russifications, which made bars-R more capable than export Bars-M. Question is, if foreign (western) electronics in Su-30MKI could allow instalation of different more capable radar as it doesn't have indian and other imported components inside.

    Other advantage of Su-30MK2 is, that it have original IFDL and other data links for group working and sharing information and more capable Pastel RWR to program anti-radar missiles. As we could see on Chinese Su-30MK2, they could easily install their own weapons, including very capable PL-15 AAM. Only advantage of Indian Su-30MKI is in TVC engines.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:09 am

    There is an advantage having the 100 km additional range even if you can't strike them that far.  N001VEP is outdated and outgunned. Hence why Su-30SM used Bars R due to its clear advantage of being able to see upwards to 250km for a fighter sized target.  150km isn't suitable for such a large jet anymore.

    Bars M is apparently not far off either. Maybe 200km range for a fighter sized target. These are something former user TR1 pointed out and had Russian article and screenshots of from years ago.

    Best option now is to provide Irbis radar for it or a more advanced pero radar.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:33 am

    The advantage of seeing 100km more is of little use if your datalink sucks and you don't have the weapons to use that advantage.

    Chinese j11/15/16 and su-30s have a rcs of around 15m2 so any radar will spot them at max range anyway. But chinese are working on pl15 with double the range of indian missiles.

    Su-30 can come with any radar you want. There is the VEP with 150km range but also the VEP+Pero antenna with 190km range. Bars are also proposed. And even the ones from mig fighters can be scaled up for flankers. It's up to the client to choose. And of course they will try to get the best so Irbis E.
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    Post  medo on Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:22 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:There is an advantage having the 100 km additional range even if you can't strike them that far.  N001VEP is outdated and outgunned. Hence why Su-30SM used Bars R due to its clear advantage of being able to see upwards to 250km for a fighter sized target.  150km isn't suitable for such a large jet anymore.

    Bars M is apparently not far off either. Maybe 200km range for a fighter sized target.  These are something former user TR1 pointed out and had Russian article and screenshots of from years ago.

    Best option now is to provide Irbis radar for it or a more advanced pero radar.

    N001VEP is outdated, but still useful as it is multirole with air to air, air to ground and air to sea modes. Russia use this radar on Su-27SM/SM3 and Su-30M2. Su-27SM3 worked just fine in Syria and they are still very capable fighter-bombers.

    Pero is not a radar, but PESA radar antenna for N001VEP radar offered as option.

    I'm sure Russia could improve Bars-M radar, but there is a question, if they could improve indiam ones, which are infected by foreign components. Algerian and Malaysian ones are far less infected.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:02 pm

    Improved bars-r is the irbis. I don't think anyone will buy older and less capable radars over the top radars they produce.

    I was just shoked by the price of the MK2 for Vietnam which gives almost same capabilities as a 75 milllion MKI
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:08 pm

    Adding pero to N001VEP and upgrading the signal processor, they could probably squeeze more performance out of it and get it close to Bars R radar for lot less price.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:58 am

    I would think replacing all the old electronic components with more modern components on its own could improve the performance of any radar... the first Zaslon radar had fairly modest performance for its size because the electronic scanning and wide field of view meant it had an enormous view volume and its limited processors could not handle that sort of volume of data.

    Simply replacing the old processors with new more powerful chips dramatically improved performance while also allowing the replacement of single use chips like those in a calculator with proper CPUs as used in computers... which meant upgrades and new features could be added simply with software updates rather than physical changes and hardware changes.

    These Su-30s would be relatively cheap to buy but over the life of the aircraft operational costs wont be cheap, but its size offers potential for upgrades...
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:These Su-30s would be relatively cheap to buy but over the life of the aircraft operational costs wont be cheap, but its size offers potential for upgrades...
    IAF officials were of the opinion that Su 30MKI upgraded to Super Sukhoi will make them at par with Chinese Su 35 if not Russian Su 35. However, the price of upgrade is stated to be around US$ 10 billion.

    Lack of proper planning means India's MoD doesn't have that kind of money, so they are hedging their bets on 12 new Su 30MKI and 20 mothballed Mig 29/ Mig 29 UPG.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:46 pm

    I don't think we are talking quality here, but numbers... upgrading their Su-30MKIs further wont make up for the retiring MiG-21s and other fighters...

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