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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    JohninMK
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 3 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  JohninMK on Sun May 31, 2020 3:26 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Venezuela used them till they couldn't use them any more... they have no flying examples AFAIK.

    [quote]
    Photo last week of Su-30 and F-16 flying together over Iranian tanker, so they have at least one still operational.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun May 31, 2020 4:22 pm

    I guess Venezuelans will replace their f-16 with some mig-35 if their oil is sold again.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 5:48 pm

    I have a question for you: why should Russians and Chinese help Iran with operating and maintaining second hand export versions of F16?
    if nothing else, to earn $.
    the F-16 is just an ordinary aircraft and any model they might get a hold of will be an ancient crappy version of it. ..they would need to be total morons to try to get access to early model F-16s so they can keep slaving away and wasting enormous amounts of resources on what is a mediocre plane by todays standards
    their own US made planes r even more ancient. Old F-16s can be upgraded like those in Pakistan, even after violating an agreement of their use:
    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/51b-proposed-in-sales-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/
    https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2019-12-11/state-department-reprimanded-pakistan-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows

    https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/pakistan-justiceforbilalnoorzai-justiceforjibran-trend-online-as-two-youngsters-killed-in-separate-attacks-in-quetta-1.1590933634996

    Some rogue Pakistanis can help Iran should it get Iraqi or Ven. F-16s.
    like the US does assumes Iran is as competent at fighter planes as the US is... which is clearly not true or by now they would be operating at least F-15s and F-18s and they are not.
    unfortunately, Iraq, Ven. & Pakistan don't operate those & can't give them to Iran; others that do r not crazy to rub salt in the US wounds in the ME & shoot themselves in the foot.
    Early model F-16s are rubbish and no better than what they already have.
    modifying/upgrading them would make them on a par or better!
    Buying MiG-29s means they can be brand new MiG-29M2s equal to some of the best model F-16s... it will be handed over to them when they pay for it.
    I hope u r right & they'll get them, & in the #s they need!

    Venezuela used them till they couldn't use them any more... they have no flying examples AFAIK.
    I bet most parts of those airframes can still be salvaged. Yes, they r still flying:
    https://theiranproject.com/blog/2020/05/27/iran-appreciates-venezuela-for-escorting-oil-tankers/
    Yeah... the existing Avionics systems the Iranians had access to are for F-4s and F-14s are you suggesting they upgrade an F-16 with the avionics of aircraft from a previous generation?
    they can modify/make/ order from RF/PRC the new gear to fit it on F-16s.
    Given the choice of buying Russian or Chinese planes they would be fucken stupid to want to copy an American plane they never had access to before and don't even know if they would like it or not.
    it's not a given they'll get what they want from Russia or China & on time, on budget. No need to copy 100% of it like with the F-5.
    Why don't they use computer simulators and train on F-22s instead it is a much better plane...
    computer games/simulators r for kids & fans, they won't replace the real simulators for combat pilots. The F-22 may some day fall into their hands in the form of a wreckage- it's better to train for the Su-57 instead.
    they got kicked out of Vietnam... and Afghanistan is not an example of them leaving until they leave... they have been there since the 1960s...
    it was a political decision as GIs started killing their officers there & the anti-war movement got out of control; they'll leave Afghanistan completely just like the Greeks, Brits, & Soviets did before them.
    And US agents in both locations would seize the parts immediately.
    they won't outwit the local smugglers w/o risking their own lives.
    Of course they can.... that is why Cuba and North Korea are living the high life...
    adding more sanctions to those already in place for trade with Iran/China/RF won't make much difference.
    Russia is not Irans buddy... Russia will sell fighters to Iran but why would they help Iran get hold of parts for and American plane for them to use?
    'U scratch my back, I'll scratch urs" deal. why not if they'll pay for it in some way?
    At the time Saddam was the problem... not Iran.
    it was a lingering problem since 1979, otherwise that interdiction mission wouldn't take place.
    The only option 100% guaranteed is the F-16 option... guaranteed to fail.
    even if it does, they'll learn good lessons from it.
    They don't have any F-16 flight simulators...
    Any nations operating them now won't be sending pilots to US to train on them; if they get any F-16s, they'll likely get flight simulators as well.
    They have never flown F-16s before their value to Iran is zero.
    like with the US stealth UAV they captured, copied & now operate?
    If they could do that they could do the same to their F-4s and F-14s so why would they need F-16s?
    it's a newer plane that can replace the F-4s & F-14s on some missions. Those birds have enough range to cover Iran from their bases & can be mid-air refueled.
    F-16s have been declared gay in Iran and their use has been banned.
    according to whom? A gay soldier can still shoot at the enemy, who cares at whom he shoots his other load? Alexander the Great was bi-sexual & still defeated the Persians.
    A radar for an Su-30 is too big to fit into an F-16 and so are the radars for the MiG-29 family.
    true, but they have the brains & know how to make 1 for a good fit. If not, pods around the fuselage/under wings can be used.
    Hahahaha... the F-16 has been widely used in combat... please post a single photo showing an F-16 carrying anything like 7.7 tons of weapons.
    I'm too lazy to add all those weights, but even in standard configurations they'll carry as much, if not more than the MiG-29s: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-standard-configuration-load-for-a-fighter-aircraft-and-can-several-examples-be-given-for-the-F-16-and-the-Mirage-2000

    the short legged F-16 would also be carrying external fuel tanks and need inflight refuelling...
    with CFTs, it's still possible to be armed adequately or a new more powerful engine could be fitted.
    Fighter aircraft are considered defensive aircraft. Deep strike aircraft are not defensive but these are not deep strike aircraft.
    they'll be offencive if/when escorting deep strikers. The IAF F-16s destroyed Iraqi reactor & an Iraqi Mirage nearly sunk the USS Stark. The USAF F-16 shot down by Serbs wasn't on a defencive mission either.
    Iran tries to reverse engineer an F-16 and get neighbouring air forces to fly examples in for them to examine because that would be harder to engineer than building nuclear weapons and will keep Iran busy for the next ten years chasing their tail trying to emulate an aircraft that is already being replaced in western air forces because it is obsolete.
    they didn't try to reverse engineer F-4/14s & Mirages- the F-5 was enough. The F-16s r still being modernized/upgraded, just like the older F-15s.  
    America can then bomb any airfield they claim they spot stolen F-16s at...
    only if there's going to be a war anyway, & Iranians know it. Why invite another massive BM attack on US bases?
    A rail line would benefit Iranian internal trade... a water way... not so much... too many mountains...
    a high speed train won't be safe in the mountainous terrain.
    Iran might not trust Russia with anything less than local production to prevent production being blocked.
    It'll take a long time to set it up, even if the Russians agree to it. They r not buddies as u correctly stated & don't want Iran to be too self reliant.
    in all the years since the US left Iran, Iran has not maintained, modified, upgraded, or used an F-16 or F-18 or F-15 or F-22 and are not likely to ever do so.
    there's a 1st time for everything. To hedge their bets, they may have no choice with the F-16s just like they had no choice with their F-4/5/14s.
    Through a combination of engineering ingenuity and audacious espionage, Iran kept its F-14s in working order — and even improved them. The swing-wing fighters took to the air in several conflicts and even occasionally confronted American planes. ..Starting in 1981, Iranian Aircraft Industries began performing overhauls and upgrades on the F-14s as part of the Tehran’s effort to make the country militarily self-sufficient. The upgrades finally added Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles to the Tomcats. The self-sufficiency program had help from Iranian agents working abroad — and at great risk to themselves — to divert spare parts for the F-14s and other weapon systems. ..Tehran turned to the black market, paying huge sums to shady middlemen to sneak F-14 parts into Iran. American authorities became aware of the illicit trade as early as 1998. In March of that year, federal agents arrested Iranian-born Parviz Lavi at his home in Long Island, charging him with violating U.S. export law by attempting to buy up spare parts for the F-14’s TF-30 engine and ship them to Iran via The Netherlands. Lavi got five years in prison plus a $125,000 fine.
    The arrests came in a steady drumbeat. In 1998, an aircraft parts vendor in San Diego told U.S. customs officials that Multicore Ltd. in California had requested price information for air intake seals used only on the F-14. Agents arrested Multicore’s Saeed Homayouni, a naturalized Canadian from Iran, and Yew Leng Fung, a Malaysian citizen.
    “Bank records subpoenaed by the Customs Service showed that Multicore Ltd. had made 399 payments totaling $2.26 million to military parts brokers since 1995 and had received deposits of $2.21 million,” The Washington Post reported. The company shipped parts mostly through Singapore.
    The feds began investigating 18 companies that had supplied airplane components to Multicore.
    In September 2003, U.S. authorities nabbed Iranian Serzhik Avasappian in a South Florida hotel as part of a sting operation. Agents had shown Avasappian several F-14 parts worth $800,000 and arrested him after he offered to buy the components.
    “While these components may appear relatively innocuous to the untrained eye, they are tightly controlled for good reason,” Immigration and Customs Enforcement interim agent Jesus Torres said in a statement. “In the wrong hands, they pose a potential threat to Americans at home and abroad.”
    Even with U.S. authorities tamping down on the illicit trade in F-14 parts, Iran persisted. After shutting down Multicore, the feds confiscated the firm’s Tomcat components and sent them to the Defense Department’s surplus-parts office. In 2005, a company — allegedly Iranian — bought the very same parts from the military. ..the underground trade in Tomcat parts continues, with shady companies scouring the planet for leftover components. In early 2014, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security investigated Israeli arms dealers that it said had twice tried to send F-14 spares to Iran. ..And it’s not for no reason that Tehran would keep trying to supply its Tomcats. In recent years the United States has stepped up its efforts to spy on Iran, deploying drone aircraft including the secretive, stealthy RQ-170 to the Middle East apparently to surveil Iranian nuclear facilities. An RQ-170 crashed in Iranian territory in 2011.
    Tomcats have led the effort to intercept these drones. In the early 2000s, the Iranian air force stationed an F-14 squadron in Bushehr, the site of Iran’s first nuclear reactor. That squadron eventually disbanded as its Tomcats fell into disrepair, but other F-14 squadrons maintained vigil over Bushehr and two other atomic facilities as U.S. spy flights continued to probe the sites, trying to glean intelligence on Iran’s nuclear efforts.
    And that’s when things got weird. F-14 crews protecting the facilities reported seeing increasingly sophisticated and bizarre drones, according to Taghvaee. “The CIA’s intelligence drones displayed astonishing flight characteristics, including an ability to fly outside the atmosphere, attain a maximum cruise speed of Mach 10 and a minimum speed of zero, with the ability to hover over the target.”
    “Finally,” Taghvaee added, “the drones used powerful [electronic countermeasures] that could jam enemy radars using very high levels of magnetic energy.” In November 2004 one F-14 crew intercepted a suspected CIA drone over the nuke facility at Arak. As the aviators tried to lock onto the drone with their Tomcat’s AWG-9 radar, they “saw that the radar scope was disrupted.” The drone lit its green afterburner and escaped.
    To be clear, it’s highly unlikely the CIA possesses hypersonic space-capable drones with radar-killing magnetic ray weapons. The point is that Tehran is protective, even paranoid, when it comes to its nuclear sites — and yet entrusts their defense mainly to the 40-year-old F-14s.
    Whether it’s producing parts itself or acquiring them abroad, Iran is clearly succeeding in its efforts to supply its F-14 squadrons. In October 2013, Taghvaee estimated that more than 40 of Tehran’s surviving F-14s were in flyable condition, possibly the highest number since the mid-1970s. Iran has begun upgrading the Tomcats with new radar components, radios, navigation systems and wiring while also adding compatibility with R-73 and Hawk missiles.
    Five decades in, Iran’s F-14s are only getting better and better. And more and more important to the Persian state’s defense.

    https://news.yahoo.com/iran-taking-ancient-f-14-094700813.html

    But surely an F-35 has even more growth potential and would only require a little extra work to develop and build...
    out of proportion: the F-35s r too expensive even for the US; Iraq, Ven., Turkey & Pakistan won't have them for Iranians to give access to. OTH, if they get a wreckage, something useful could be learned.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 6:27 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 3 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 31, 2020 8:10 pm

    @tsavo lion
    F-5 aren't and weren't enough but the problem is they cant and couldn't copy the F1, F-14,F-4.

    U said no other ME would be crazy or stupid enough to give aircraft over yet you expect Iraq and other non ME countries to be stupid enough to do it.  I think ur playing too many computer games.  

    You think Iran can just build a radar to fit inside aircraft easily as well as the avionics software parts etc,  ask China how they struggled and ask India how it has suffered and how much money have they sunk into Tejas and the delays. Iranian aviation industry is nowhere near China's or India's. So Iran doesn't have a hope in hell to produce or copy F-16. You obviously keep ignoring that point,  but it's only to ur detriment that u do.  

    Iran since 2006 have produced only a handful of HESA Saeqeh, and the HESA Saeqeh 2 an upgrade they have since 2016 only one prototype. Their Qaher-313 been in pipeline since 2013 has so far did a short taxi down a runway, and their Shafaq trainer on pipeline since 2008 and so far nothing. There is a reason why Iran makes copies because it can't make aircraft from scratch. And have only ever made copies of light aircraft that it has already in service. Ask yourself why no copies or upgrades for F-14, F-4, F-1. The reason is simple they can't if they could they would have.  They have more need for medium and heavy fighters than they do for light fighters that are sub standard. Even their copies of cobra heli has only produced a handful. They struggle to produce and develop any aircraft. It's not really their fault they don't invest enough money into it and lack the expertise and facilities.

    India and China still struggling in various areas despite pumping billions of dollars into the industry and been going at it like that for decades.  Yet you fail to see that.

    Iran struggles to produce basic light aircraft has struggled to produce in decent numbers. It would be far quicker to buy aircraft from Russia it's far quicker and getting Iran set up for production so they can then produce parts etc.  All the is far quicker than Iran trying to produce two squadrons of basic copy of a light fighter. This is fact u can't deny.  The figures are there.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 9:11 pm

    As I said, they could just copy/acquire certain parts to keep them flying, no need to copy the entire plane.
    They had it easier when those Iraqi planes landed on their base & fighters could be bought from the RF & PRC. Now, they can't be certain if/when any new planes will be sold to them or if their licenced production will be set up.
    China could sell them her own J-10/11/16s for le$$ & strings attached than Russia would charge for the MiG-35s & Su-30/34s.
    The maximum range of the J-10 with detachable fuel tanks is 2,940 km. In this way, Iran will be able not only to fly over the Persian Gulf, but also theoretically venture as far as Israel and come back to base.
    Until now, Iran's longest-reach fighters have been Russian-made MiG-29s (Fulcrum), whose maximum range is 2,100 km. ..
    In the expert's view, Iran will most likely use J-10s to protect key facilities, such as the nuclear power plant at Bushehr.
    Besides, the very presence of J-10 jets could act as a deterrent, said Makiyenko: the fighters can theoretically scuttle any Israeli strike at facilities which Israel may believe are manufacturing weapons of mass destruction.
    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/2007102385174001/

    The J-10 has better performance vs. the MiG-29/35:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Specifications_(J-10A)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-35#Specifications_(MiG-35)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-16

    FYI, According to Global Security 60 F-4D/E and 4 RF-4Es are in service. 10 are F-4Ds and 50 are F-4Es. F-4Ds/Es are currently undergoing an upgrade program which includes a new Chinese-built radar and other avionics and weapons namely PL-5E, PL-11 and C-801.(According to the aviationist (October 2013) the Qader cruise missile that went into mass production was successfully tested on an F-4).
    Iran currently has about 40 F-14 remaining with two of them having been upgraded to F-14AM around 20 Fully Mission Capable and the other 20 Partially Mission Capable
    According to Russian media up to 30 (24 MiG-29 9.12A and 6 MiG-29UB 9.51) of all MiG-29s have been overhauled and can now be armed with Nasr-1 anti-ship missile.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Iranian_Air_Force#Multirole_fighters


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 3 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 31, 2020 11:14 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:As I said, they could just copy/acquire certain parts to keep them flying, no need to copy the entire plane.
    They had it easier when those Iraqi planes landed on their base & fighters could be bought from the RF & PRC. Now, they can't be certain if/when any new planes will be sold to them or if their licenced production will be set up.
    China could sell them her own J-10/11/16s for le$$ & strings attached than Russia would charge for the MiG-35s & Su-30/34s.
    The maximum range of the J-10 with detachable fuel tanks is 2,940 km. In this way, Iran will be able not only to fly over the Persian Gulf, but also theoretically venture as far as Israel and come back to base.
    Until now, Iran's longest-reach fighters have been Russian-made MiG-29s (Fulcrum), whose maximum range is 2,100 km. ..
    In the expert's view, Iran will most likely use J-10s to protect key facilities, such as the nuclear power plant at Bushehr.
    Besides, the very presence of J-10 jets could act as a deterrent, said Makiyenko: the fighters can theoretically scuttle any Israeli strike at facilities which Israel may believe are manufacturing weapons of mass destruction.
     https://sputniknews.com/analysis/2007102385174001/

    The J-10 has better performance vs. the MiG-29/35:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Specifications_(J-10A)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-35#Specifications_(MiG-35)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-16

    FYI, According to Global Security 60 F-4D/E and 4 RF-4Es are in service. 10 are F-4Ds and 50 are F-4Es. F-4Ds/Es are currently undergoing an upgrade program which includes a new Chinese-built radar and other avionics and weapons namely PL-5E, PL-11 and C-801.(According to the aviationist (October 2013) the Qader cruise missile that went into mass production was successfully tested on an F-4).
    Iran currently has about 40 F-14 remaining with two of them having been upgraded to F-14AM around 20 Fully Mission Capable and the other 20 Partially Mission Capable
    According to Russian media up to 30 (24 MiG-29 9.12A and 6 MiG-29UB 9.51) of all MiG-29s have been overhauled and can now be armed with Nasr-1 anti-ship missile.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Iranian_Air_Force#Multirole_fighters

    Still ignoring the point. U have lost credibility
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:20 am

    U said no other ME would be crazy or stupid enough to give aircraft over yet you expect Iraq and other non ME countries to be stupid enough to do it.
    Iraq, Turkey & esp. Venezuela r already at the end of the rope in their relations with the US- they have very little to lose anyway. The US itself sold weapons/parts to, & cooperated with  Iran in Afghanistan when it suited them. ..during the infamous Iran-Contra Affair, the U.S. secretly funneled additional spare parts for Tomcats to Iran in exchange for promises from Iran to help release U.S. hostages, leading to an increase in the number of operational Tomcats. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-legendary-f-14-tomcat-the-plane-america-iran-both-love-18052?page=0%2C1

    NK obtained Hughes helos but nothing was done about it. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-north-korea-smuggled-87-us-scout-helicopters-22638
    https://theaviationist.com/2013/07/30/dprk-h500e/

    I don't subscribe to the idea of dividing the issues into only black & white categories- there r many shades of grey.







    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:09 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, links)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:34 am

    About Iranian airfield and Radar being hit by yank. I agree. But also yank and allies very vulnerable to Iranian attack.

    Very much so, but the Americans will take this opportunity to launch cruise missile attacks at Iran and monitor the results... the missiles that get shot down will give them indications about the strengths of the Iranian air defence network and places where they seem to get through will also be of interest... to get their real attention you would have to hit their underground bunkers on each of their nearby bases where they hide while you hit them with ballistic missiles... of course they would have a lot of hardware there too that you could do a serious amount of damage to as well... but then they could easily return the favour in their attacks on you... and lets face it... they will be quite brutal and could hit real hospitals and real schools they claim are military bases or whatever shit and the western media will believe they are not committing war crimes...

    If Iran downs fifty F18, in the first week of fight. Then that is the best it can and need to hope for.

    Indeed... you are in the same place as Serbia wanting S-300... if you have something that will stop them doing what they want to do they will just do something else... no amount of S-300 systems will allow you to win, but having enough fire power to be able to strike them in a meaningful way like ballistic missile attacks in places they don't want to pack up and leave from and then they wont start anything.

    Otherwise hitting them hard will just make them try to hurt you more as an example.

    The future. Twenty or thirty years..... Who knows...... Iran will build own fighters..... Or best rely on nukes. Nuke all the enemy!

    Worst case scenario a future Iranian air force based on modified MiG-29s and Su-30s is going to be better than one based on further upgraded F-4s and F-14s.

    Better cases could be better with joint development of a brand new fighter for Iran with state of the art engines and onboard equipment that is a combination of Iranian and Russian technology that could be cheaper and better than what America is making by then...

    For short range work. But ultimately it comes to nukes. Like it or not.


    The US pulls sanctions shit against NK but doesn't talk about invading them... and that is probably because of their nukes...

    if nothing else, to earn $.

    They don't know how to operate or maintain it... how the hell are they going to teach Iran to operate and maintain something they can't themselves...

    their own US made planes r even more ancient

    Older planes are simpler and more basic to maintain and they were trained to operate and maintain them when they bought them...

    Some rogue Pakistanis can help Iran should it get Iraqi or Ven. F-16s.

    Iran doesn't want F-16s.

    modifying/upgrading them would make them on a par or better!

    Upgrading them with what? and How... they don't have any and can't use the ones they don't have.

    I hope u r right & they'll get them, & in the #s they need!

    They will be able to get as many as they pay for.

    I bet most parts of those airframes can still be salvaged. Yes, they r still flying

    Venezuela will be salvaging parts to keep their F-16s flying... the fact that they are using them means they don't want to give them to Iran.

    they can modify/make/ order from RF/PRC the new gear to fit it on F-16s.

    Why? such parts would be expensive made to order shit that is no good for anyone else to use so it would be more expensive than stuff they make for their own planes... why not order one of their planes?

    it's not a given they'll get what they want from Russia or China & on time, on budget. No need to copy 100% of it like with the F-5.

    It is a given that they don't have any F-16s or any chance of getting any at all, but that doesn't seem to matter to you...

    computer games/simulators r for kids & fans, they won't replace the real simulators for combat pilots.

    That is exactly right.... so where the F are the Iranians supposed to get a full spec actual F-16 combat simulation system from?

    That would be harder to steal that the plane because no matter how often rogue Pakistani and Iraqi pilots try they will never be able to fly an F-16 simulator to Iran for them to use...

    they'll leave Afghanistan completely just like the Greeks, Brits, & Soviets did before them.

    Why would they... the Americans don't give a shit about american soldiers getting killed there... the 0.1% could care less about them... there is money in those mountains... rare earth elements have never been mined from there because the locals had no need for such things... more valuable that oil and all they have to do is hide a few hundred deaths each year... training accident... obviously...

    they won't outwit the local smugglers w/o risking their own lives.

    The US agents will the the support people who actually maintain the aircraft while the Iraqis and Pakistanis stand around... they will control the parts as they come from American and they will put them on the aircraft and keep track of the parts that are removed...

    adding more sanctions to those already in place for trade with Iran/China/RF won't make much difference.

    So why is Iran breaking the deal by enriching more material in an effort to force the EU to invest in Iran as per their part of the agreement?

    'U scratch my back, I'll scratch urs" deal. why not if they'll pay for it in some way?

    Russia wont cooperate to help US aircraft sales... that is ridiculous... they wont fit Al-41 engines on F-14s and wont fit RD-33 engines on F-4s either... that ship has sailed... they are not the desperate for cash state they were in the 1990s.

    even if it does, they'll learn good lessons from it.

    The only lesson they could learn is not to be fooled by stupid ideas they find on the internet....

    Any nations operating them now won't be sending pilots to US to train on them; if they get any F-16s, they'll likely get flight simulators as well.

    And how are rogue pilots going to fly those flight sims to Iran?

    Isn't the US going to notice one of its flight simulators is missing from where it normally is?

    like with the US stealth UAV they captured, copied & now operate?

    That is a bit different... they already make their own UAVs and for all we know the copied models will have domestic components that offer nothing like the performance of the original which was likely dissected and sent to China and Russia... the cameras and sensors on that UAV would take decades to pick apart and examine and then replicate...

    I fact almost as long as an F-16 would... like the F-14 and F-4 and F-5 did...

    it's a newer plane that can replace the F-4s & F-14s on some missions. Those birds have enough range to cover Iran from their bases & can be mid-air refueled.

    F-4s and F-14s are bigger aircraft and could easily be made to have much longer range than old model F-16s... especially with these conformal fuel tanks you keep saying are easy to fit.

    according to whom? A gay soldier can still shoot at the enemy, who cares at whom he shoots his other load? Alexander the Great was bi-sexual & still defeated the Persians.

    According to all Iranians who don't want to have to go through the bullshit of reverse engineering another piece of American crap.

    true, but they have the brains & know how to make 1 for a good fit. If not, pods around the fuselage/under wings can be used.

    If it does not fit in the nose of the aircraft then carrying it in an external pod is probably an even worse solution.

    And it is not a question of brains... it is a question of a 1.3 metre wide radar not fitting into an aircraft with a nose less than 1 metre across...

    I'm too lazy to add all those weights, but even in standard configurations they'll carry as much, if not more than the MiG-29s:

    Of course they will because they will be carrying external fuel tanks as well so they can reach their targets... but that makes them worse not better.

    with CFTs, it's still possible to be armed adequately or a new more powerful engine could be fitted.

    Of course it is just a matter of Iran picking which new engine they want in it right?

    they'll be offencive if/when escorting deep strikers. The IAF F-16s destroyed Iraqi reactor & an Iraqi Mirage nearly sunk the USS Stark. The USAF F-16 shot down by Serbs wasn't on a defencive mission either.

    The Americans would say a white flag is offensive... Russia will sell them as defensive weapons and America can go fuck itself.

    they didn't try to reverse engineer F-4/14s & Mirages- the F-5 was enough.

    They had to maintain parts so effectively they did need to reverse engineer the Phantom and Tomcat.

    They completely reverse engineered the F-5 because is was small and simple and easier to reverse engineer being a subsonic fighter... it has a much smaller operational flight envelope than a supersonic plane like the F-16.

    The F-16s r still being modernized/upgraded, just like the older F-15s

    Not in Iran they are not.

    only if there's going to be a war anyway, & Iranians know it. Why invite another massive BM attack on US bases?

    Why? It is a good excuse to do damage and claim innocence... they were just trying to deny Iran the ability to use American high tech fighters.... any buildings or other things that get destroyed while we try to take them out is the fault of Iran for trying to stop us.

    They would almost certainly take a few shots at killing the leaders too...

    a high speed train won't be safe in the mountainous terrain.

    Not saying they wont need a lot of tunnels...

    It'll take a long time to set it up, even if the Russians agree to it. They r not buddies as u correctly stated & don't want Iran to be too self reliant.

    A fraction of the time it would take to set up their own factories to build planes they have never built before.

    Why wouldn't the Russians agree... another customer for weapons...

    And Iran are currently reliant anyway and if the Russians don't sell then it will be China that sells...

    there's a 1st time for everything. To hedge their bets, they may have no choice with the F-16s just like they had no choice with their F-4/5/14s.

    They had a choice with the American planes, but not with the F-16.... the choice comes with ownership and they don't have any F-16s.

    Through a combination of engineering ingenuity and audacious espionage, Iran kept its F-14s in working order — and even improved them. The swing-wing fighters took to the air in several conflicts and even occasionally confronted American planes. ..Starting in 1981, Iranian Aircraft Industries began performing overhauls and upgrades on the F-14s as part of the Tehran’s effort to make the country militarily self-sufficient. The upgrades finally added Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles to the Tomcats.

    Where did you get that shit from... the Tomcats they got already used Sidewinder and Sparrow...

    It is the F-16 that didn't use Sparrow missiles unlike the F-15 F-14 and F-4.

    Five decades in, Iran’s F-14s are only getting better and better. And more and more important to the Persian state’s defense.

    But hang on... that totally contradicts what you are saying... it has been 5 decades since Iran bought F-14s and F-4s and F-5s and during that time they have played all sorts of tricks to try to get components to keep their american crap planes operating and only now with new replacement parts they are making themselves are they able to keep them operating.. so what you are saying is that if Iran can get Venezuela and Iraq and Turkey to just hand over their planes and parts and pilots and flight simulators that in 50 years time they can start making their own upgrades and parts?

    Pretty obvious that is a dumb choice to make when there are other much simpler and easier and cheaper choices.

    [qutoe]out of proportion: the F-35s r too expensive even for the US; Iraq, Ven., Turkey & Pakistan won't have them for Iranians to give access to. OTH, if they get a wreckage, something useful could be learned.[/quote]

    But Iran is able to do what the US Navy was unable to do and that is keep their F-4s and F-14s flying without a steady supply of spare parts.... fixing the F-35 would be a piece of piss and of course they will make it cheaper to operate...

    Iraq, Turkey & esp. Venezuela r already at the end of the rope in their relations with the US- they have very little to lose anyway.

    Turkey and Iran are not friends, and Iraq is currently a US puppet and in no condition to assist a neighbour in this way.

    The US itself sold weapons/parts to, & cooperated with Iran in Afghanistan when it suited them. ..during the infamous Iran-Contra Affair, the U.S. secretly funneled additional spare parts for Tomcats to Iran in exchange for promises from Iran to help release U.S. hostages, leading to an increase in the number of operational Tomcat

    Except Iran hasn't got any US hostages so the US has no reason to help them... and they were just helping them keep some very obsolete aircraft that they know how to defeat in service.... they were not offering them partnerships in the F-35 programme.

    BTW great videos there... especially the one with the Tornado.... do they discuss american myths like how Iran lent an F-14 to the Soviets so the Soviets could develop the MiG-31 and the R-33... even though the radar in the MiG-31 is far more sophisticated than the radar in the F-14... a PESA instead of a conventional manually scanned radar... yeah... more yanqui bs... you want Iran to fail so you want them to waste time reanimating your F-16 crap while everyone else moves forward in aircraft design you want Iran to go backwards.
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 3 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:06 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    U said no other ME would be crazy or stupid enough to give aircraft over yet you expect Iraq and other non ME countries to be stupid enough to do it.
    Iraq, Turkey & esp. Venezuela r already at the end of the rope in their relations with the US- they have very little to lose anyway. The US itself sold weapons/parts to, & cooperated with  Iran in Afghanistan when it suited them. ..during the infamous Iran-Contra Affair, the U.S. secretly funneled additional spare parts for Tomcats to Iran in exchange for promises from Iran to help release U.S. hostages, leading to an increase in the number of operational Tomcats. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-legendary-f-14-tomcat-the-plane-america-iran-both-love-18052?page=0%2C1

    NK obtained Hughes helos but nothing was done about it. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-north-korea-smuggled-87-us-scout-helicopters-22638
    https://theaviationist.com/2013/07/30/dprk-h500e/

    I don't subscribe to the idea of dividing the issues into only black & white categories- there r many shades of grey.


    Well u gave the reason already hostages selling a few parts in exchange for hostages that's the reason and contra affair was corruption at its finest. And long ago. Trump I highly doubt we do such and most likely take a much much harder stance.

    Their is a huge difference between F-16 and a civilian MD-500 heli the latter isn't much of a threat or high tech and isn't much of an asset. F-16 is more of threat and high tech very simple
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:12 pm

    They don't know how to operate or maintain it... how the hell are they going to teach Iran to operate and maintain something they can't themselves...
    they can help with avionics/software, while Pakistani/Ven. pilots teach them flying skills/tricks.

    Older planes are simpler and more basic to maintain and they were trained to operate and maintain them when they bought them...
    it's a lot easier to learn running & jumping after learning crawling & walking, so they won't be complete diletants after cutting their teeth on them.

    Iran doesn't want F-16s.
    if they wanted up to 300 of them before 1979, they may want them again before 2025.

    Upgrading them with what? and How... they don't have any and can't use the ones they don't have.
    in case they do get them. It seems u have trouble in keeping with my train of thought.

    They will be able to get as many as they pay for.
    that may not be much & not in the time frame they'll need them..

    Venezuela will be salvaging parts to keep their F-16s flying... the fact that they are using them means they don't want to give them to Iran.
    by the same token, if they can still fly them w/o US support & under sanctions, so will Iran be able to.

    Why? such parts would be expensive made to order shit that is no good for anyone else to use so it would be more expensive than stuff they make for their own planes... why not order one of their planes?
    they may order both. Malaysia, Thailand, India, Indonesia, Egypt, KSA, Finland & Iraq been operating Western & Soviet/russian planes together for years.

    It is a given that they don't have any F-16s or any chance of getting any at all, but that doesn't seem to matter to you...
    Iran/China can get access to anything Iraq/Pakistan has, incl. their F-16s, at the 1st request/demand. The Iraqis will have more combat ready MiGs/J-7s Iran/China may give them than their F-16 no longer directly supported by the LM contractors.

    so where the F are the Iranians supposed to get a full spec actual F-16 combat simulation system from?
    Iraq &/ Pakistan. Btw copying that would be a lot easier than F-16 or its parts. Pilots can also be sent there instead on rotational basis.
    ..they will never be able to fly an F-16 simulator to Iran for them to use...And how are rogue pilots going to fly those flight sims to Iran? Isn't the US going to notice one of its flight simulators is missing from where it normally is?
    smuggled out or officially sent, it could be loaded on a cargo ship/plane/large helo or a flatbed truck, depending on the circumstances. Those contractors, if they r still there, r not going to be in Iraq for much longer to notice anything.

    Why would they... the Americans don't give a shit about american soldiers getting killed there...
    true, but if some get captured, all bets r off.
    The US agents will the the support people who actually maintain the aircraft while the Iraqis and Pakistanis stand around...
    they r not in Venezuela, got pulled out of Iraq as per that article & may pull out of Pakistan in the future.

    So why is Iran breaking the deal by enriching more material in an effort to force the EU to invest in Iran as per their part of the agreement?
    IMO the US has run out of any more sanctions to impose on Iran anyway.

    The only lesson they could learn is not to be fooled by stupid ideas they find on the internet....
    or perhaps their rebuttals.

    F-4s and F-14s are bigger aircraft and could easily be made to have much longer range than old model F-16s...
    at some point they'll need to be augmented/replaced.

    According to all Iranians who don't want to have to go through the bullshit of reverse engineering another piece of American crap.
    do u have inside info. to speak for them? Don't tell me the Israelis, Pakistanis, Chileans, & UAE (besides many others), r also stupid to not consider them crap. If it was so, they could have stuck with French fighters instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Operators

    And it is not a question of brains... it is a question of a 1.3 metre wide radar not fitting into an aircraft with a nose less than 1 metre across...
    a nose surgery could be done, if need be. Enlarged nose cover won't affect the drag that much.

    Of course they will because they will be carrying external fuel tanks as well so they can reach their targets... but that makes them worse not better.
    not if they use their IRPs instead.

    Of course it is just a matter of Iran picking which new engine they want in it right?
    is it impossible to upgrade an engine or make a new 1, in Iran or elsewhere, to fit on it? Iran may build an F-16 variant with 2 smaller engines like they did with their F-5 copy.

    They had to maintain parts so effectively they did need to reverse engineer the Phantom and Tomcat.
    but they didn't bother to build their full copies. Not worth to waste time on those still useful, but soon to be pterodactyls- what they have is enough.

    They completely reverse engineered the F-5 because is was small and simple and easier to reverse engineer being a subsonic fighter... it has a much smaller operational flight envelope than a supersonic plane like the F-16.
    true, but the F-16 may become their next F-5 to copy, in whole or in part.

    Not in Iran they are not.
    if it gets even the oldest model, it could be modernized.

    Why? It is a good excuse to do damage and claim innocence... they were just trying to deny Iran the ability to use American high tech fighters.... any buildings or other things that get destroyed while we try to take them out is the fault of Iran for trying to stop us.
    They would almost certainly take a few shots at killing the leaders too...
    After the Sentinel UAV was captured & copied, they chose not to do it. There was more reason to retaliate after the massive BM attack, but it didn't happen.

    Not saying they wont need a lot of tunnels...
    adding to the costs & delaying the road completion. They already have railroads between their coasts & there's no hurry to build new  high speed lines cost to coast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Railways#/media/File:Map_Iran_railways_en.svg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Railways#High-speed_rail
    https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/448389/1-660km-of-new-railroads-to-be-inaugurated-by-Mar-2022
    https://jamestown.org/program/russia-now-losing-out-to-china-on-iranian-rail-route/

    A fraction of the time it would take to set up their own factories to build planes they have never built before.
    changing/adding tooling in existing plants will be enough.

    They had a choice with the American planes, but not with the F-16.... the choice comes with ownership and they don't have any F-16s.
    I'm talking hypothetically. U r switching from that to the present reality- that's inconsistent.

    it has been 5 decades since Iran bought F-14s and F-4s and F-5s and ..only now with new replacement parts they are making themselves are they able to keep them operating..
    no, it happened gradually & during the 5 decades they had them operating.


    fixing the F-35 would be a piece of piss and of course they will make it cheaper to operate...
    the Chinese already done it with their F-35 inspired J-31 they can sell to Iran.

    Iraq is currently a US puppet..
    Iran has more strings to control it than any1 else.

    Except Iran hasn't got any US hostages so the US has no reason to help them... and they were just helping them keep some very obsolete aircraft that they know how to defeat in service.... they were not offering them partnerships in the F-35 programme.
    I mentioned it to show that even the US allies can do what's in their interests, as they did in the past.

    you want Iran to fail so you want them to waste time reanimating your F-16 crap while everyone else moves forward in aircraft design you want Iran to go backwards.
    even if they get Su-30s/J-16s (F-15 counterpart), they would still go forward with the F-16 before they can dream of jumping to F-22/35 or Su-57 5th gen. level planes.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:37 pm

    @tsavo ur comment "even if they get Su-30s/J-16s (F-15 counterpart), they would still go forward with the F-16 before they can dream of jumping to F-22/35 or Su-57 5th gen. level planes."

    What planet are u on? If they got Su-30 or J-16 as u suggest you honestly believe they would still go for F-16 lol! Delusional u really are. If Iran wanted F-16 they would hav3 found a way by now, but guess what they haven't why because they don't want it. And why would they want an outdated plane now when there is far better up for grabs. F-16 fetish and fantasy is nothing more than ur personal pipe dream an a sewer pipe at that. Your comments are verging on troll status now. lol!
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    Post  nomadski on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:47 pm

    Really, Iran does not urgently need planes. It is manufacturing them. Good enough to shoot down those expensive yank F18, or F22 or F35. At least with own excellent BVR missiles. Kowser will have derivatives. More advanced. It is to be shown soon. Iran will never buy American planes. Russian planes, To augment capability.

    https://youtu.be/5045kFslW5E

    And :


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakour-90


    And :


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatter



    And :



    Use your imagination.


    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:20 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:If they got Su-30 or J-16 as u suggest you honestly believe  they would still go for F-16 lol!
    There's a need for both heavy & light fighters.
     
    If Iran wanted F-16 they would hav3 found a way by now, but guess what they haven't why because they don't want it.
    that was before; they may want it in the not to distance future, esp. if it will be more "up for grabs" than other planes that haven't been built yet. Iraq is no position to deny Iran access to anything- it now owes its very existence to it.
    If I'm delusional, I'm not unique on this forum.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:23 pm

    Good enough to shoot down those expensive yank F18, or F22 or F35. At least with own excellent BVR missiles. Kowser will have derivatives.

    Lol you really think copies of US 3rd generation f-5 can beat a 5th generation US plane ? Keep dreaming.

    Why Russia and China haven't sell new fighter jets to Iran yet?

    Forbiden by UN resolutions.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Good enough to shoot down those expensive yank F18, or F22 or F35. At least with own excellent BVR missiles. Kowser will have derivatives.

    Lol you really think copies of US 3rd generation f-5 can beat a 5th generation US plane ? Keep dreaming.

    Why Russia and China haven't sell new fighter jets to Iran yet?

    Forbiden by UN resolutions.

    Agree totally. F-5 copy wouldn't stand a chance against F-15, F-18, F-35
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:49 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:If they got Su-30 or J-16 as u suggest you honestly believe  they would still go for F-16 lol!
    There's a need for both heavy & light fighters.
     
    If Iran wanted F-16 they would hav3 found a way by now, but guess what they haven't why because they don't want it.
    that was before; they may want it in the not to distance future, esp. if it will be more "up for grabs" than other planes that haven't been built yet. Iraq is no position to deny Iran access to anything- it now owes its existence to it.
    If I'm delusional, I'm not unique on this forum.

    If they planned to steal tech on an aircraft it certainly wouldn't be a shitty F-16. China managed to steal F-35 tech and Iran could easily buy under the radar tech from China or Russia or steal info on better aircraft the reason why they haven't is they don't have the expertise to build such nor have the inclination to do it.

    And if they wanted heavy and light fighters and they did get Su-30 as u state then u already got a light fighter their F-5 copy. But if they wanted something better then they would already have a connection through Russia with the Su-30 purchase so it would be far easier to go to Russia and buy mog-29m. Simple. But u would rather they try to steal F-16 and get other countries in the shit and face punishment then try to figure out how to copy it taking them decades to do, so by the time that happens the F-16 with be retired worldwide and it will be very outdated. What dream what dream u have.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm

    Good enough to shoot down those expensive yank F18, or F22 or F35. Kowser will have derivatives. More advanced.
    Even their F-14s can't face the F-22s- they'll need something better than the F-14 to shoot 1 down!
    If they planned to steal tech on an aircraft it certainly wouldn't be a shitty F-16.
    They can get info. on it from different sources, not necessaraly stealing, & the actual physical model. To them, I doubt it's shitty if its not so to Israel, Pakistan & Turkey+a dozen of other operators! Certainly it's not shittier than refurbished/new MiG-29/35s- even if they do get some of those!
    The Japanese F-2, based on F-16, has an enlarged wing & Iran could redesign it to. They may even make it with a delta wing.
    Both the large wing and fuselage stretch yielded a dramatic increase in range at all speeds.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL#/media/File:F-16_and_F-16XL_aerial_top_down_view.jpg

    Compare
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL#Specifications_(F-16XL_number_2)
    verses
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)

    Then, the CFTs won't be even needed.
    But u would rather they try to steal F-16 and get other countries in the shit and face punishment..
    they r already in the shit and face punishment for other things they do/done that the US doesn't like.
    then try to figure out how to copy it taking them decades to do,..
    it won't a 1st plane or esp. its parts they'll copy, & it won't take them decades.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:23 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Good enough to shoot down those expensive yank F18, or F22 or F35. Kowser will have derivatives. More advanced.
    Even their F-14s can't face the F-22s- they'll need something better than the F-14 to shoot 1 down!
    If they planned to steal tech on an aircraft it certainly wouldn't be a shitty F-16.
    They can get info. on it from different sources, not necessaraly stealing, & the actual physical model. To them, I doubt it's shitty if its not so to Israel, Pakistan & Turkey+a dozen of other operators! Certainly it's not shittier than refurbished/new MiG-29/35s- even if they do get some of those!
    The Japanese F-2, based on F-16, has an enlarged wing & Iran could redesign it to. They may even make it with a delta wing.
    Both the large wing and fuselage stretch yielded a dramatic increase in range at all speeds.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL#/media/File:F-16_and_F-16XL_aerial_top_down_view.jpg

    Compare
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL#Specifications_(F-16XL_number_2)
    verses
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)

    Then, the CFTs won't be even needed.
    But u would rather they try to steal F-16 and get other countries in the shit and face punishment..
    they r already in the shit and face punishment for other things they do/done that the US doesn't like.
    then try to figure out how to copy it taking them decades to do,..
    it won't a 1st plane or esp. its parts they'll copy, & it won't take them decades.

    It will take them decades they already proved that it took them decades to copy the F-5 a more simpler aircraft and they still haven't produced a copy of F-4, F-14, F1, and struggle to keep them in flying condition. But u keep ignoring these facts and instead keep dream of ur
    F-16 fetish and fantasy world. Your right they would need something better to take out the F-22 and a F-16 is not it.

    Iran ain't ever getting F-16 accept and move on. This new aircraft that their talking about will be another F-5 copy no doubt. So don't get all excited thinking ur fetish and fantasy dream will come true it won't. Plain and simple.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:13 am

    ..it took them decades to copy the F-5..
    how did u calculate that- from the time they got 1st F-5s or from the time after 1979 they decided to copy it? Besides, any future copying will go faster regardless how long it took to copy a previos plane.
    But as I said several times already, they may need to copy certain parts & modify the airframe,etc. which will be easier.
    ..they still haven't produced a copy of F-4, F-14, F1,..
    they knew they weren't worth the time & $ that could be better spent to keep them flying & on BMs that r less costly & far more useful as a deterrent. Later they bought MiG-29s & J-7s.
    They don't have a domestic plane maker with a brand name to protect from competition.
    Just because India won't buy/produce the F-16s, it doesn't mean Iran should reject it outright.
    Paraphrasing late Deng Xiaoping, as long as a cat catches mice, its color isn't relevant & it's a good cat.
    I realize that the F-16 induction may never happen but it still could happen, esp. should Iran be left with no other option & decide that this fighter will suit their needs.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:53 am

    Seriously ? F16 in Iran ? Don't you understand it's impossible for them to have it and even less to modify/upgrade/copy it.

    Iran is barely able to make a trainer aircraft like the f-5 and you think they could make a better f16 than the US who are leaders in aviation, materials and elecrtronics/softwares.

    If they want an air force worth something they better buy 100-150 mig-35 or su-35 with plenty of stand off missile.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 am

    @ ISOS

    @ d_taddei2

    @ tsavolion

    The proof in the pudding, is in the eating. I am not saying Iranian planes are invincible. But you all imply that American or Russian planes are invincible. Certainly you all classify aircraft according to " generation", such as 3rd generation or 5th generation etc. What they fitted a new cup holder for F35?  And it became 6th generation? Better than 5th generation. The new washing powder 2000.......

    The real test, is kill ratio. How we use these planes in practice. That is why even if Iran decides to buy some Chinese or Russian planes. This must be done after actual combat simulation testing. To see what the kill ratio is. What the costs are. And decide, how many kowser needed to fight su35 or whatever. Then decide if it is worthwhile to buy or not.

    Iran, even if making capable planes or even if it buys foreign planes. Can not buy in large enough numbers to win against an airforce like USA . In this case, these planes of whatever origin, will only be at best a temporary force, to bring down American "superpower" planes, hoping to sue for peace, within the first few weeks. If no peace, then no number of planes is going to save Iran. Then Iran has to show the big guns anyway.


    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 3 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:26 am

    nomadski wrote:
    @ ISOS

    @ d_taddei2

    @ tsavolion

    The proof in the pudding, is in the eating. I am not saying Iranian planes are invincible. But you all imply that American or Russian planes are invincible. Certainly you all classify aircraft according to " generation", such as 3rd generation or 5th generation etc. What they fitted a new cup holder for F35?  And it became 6th generation? Better than 5th generation. The new washing powder 2000.......

    The real test, is kill ratio. How we use these planes in practice. That is why even if Iran decides to buy some Chinese or Russian planes. This must be done after actual combat simulation testing. To see what the kill ratio is. What the costs are. And decide, how many kowser needed to shoot down su35 or whatever. Then decide if it is worthwhile to buy or not.

    Iran, even if making capable planes or even if it buys foreign planes. Can not buy in large enough numbers to win against an airforce like USA or Russia. In this case, these planes of whatever origin, will only be at best a temporary force, to bring down superpower planes, hoping to sue for peace, within the first few weeks. If no peace, then no number of planes is going to save Iran. Then Iran has to show the big guns anyway.

    Wrong. Please show me where I said or made out Russian or Chinese aircraft are invincible. U think you will find that's a figment of your imagination. What I have said time and time again that they won't be getting F-16 in any form. And that it's more likely and better to buy Russian or Chinese due the production rights etc and that was the main point. Nothing to do with invincible aircraft. You been taking the same as tsavo?
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:32 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    George1 wrote:Why Russia and China haven't sell new fighter jets to Iran yet?
    There is a UN mandated weapons embargo on Iran, ending on October 18th, 2020.

    After that only unilateral sanctions from US will remain, and those do not affect Russia or China... only planes produced in america or with American content...

    so contracts should get already prepared

    MiG-35 will be good for Iran. It will help also MiG factory
     yeah, most probably they already discussed it but they cannot announce any agreement or sign any contract before October 18th.
    Theoretically they could even start the delivery the day after signing a  contract, if they had some airplanes in the desired configuration ready (e.g. some mig29 upgradedto export SMT standard while they wait for the newly produced mig29M/mig35 to be built). This is not the common practice, of course, but could be an expedient due to the particular situation...


    For the moderators... would it be possible to move the f16 speculations to another thread?  A couple of posts would have been ok, but now it seems to have become main topic for the Iranian air force Shocked

    Very much agree what started out as post on a potential new aircraft. Tsavo has turn it into his F-16 fetish and fantasy Iran thread. Despite others trying to put it to bed. Let's move it and let tsavo fantasize elsewhere
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..it took them decades to copy the F-5..
    how did u calculate that- from the time they got 1st F-5s or from the time after 1979 they decided to copy it? Besides, any future copying will go faster regardless how long it took to copy a previos plane.
    But as I said several times already, they may need to copy certain parts & modify the airframe,etc. which will be easier.
    ..they still haven't produced a copy of F-4, F-14, F1,..
    they knew they weren't worth the time & $ that could be better spent to keep them flying & on BMs that r less costly & far more useful as a deterrent. Later they bought MiG-29s & J-7s.  
    They don't have a domestic plane maker with a brand name to protect from competition.
    Just because India won't buy/produce the F-16s, it doesn't mean Iran should reject it outright.
    Paraphrasing late Deng Xiaoping, as long as a cat catches mice, its color isn't relevant & it's a good cat.
    I realize that the F-16 induction may never happen but it still could happen, esp. should Iran be left with no other option & decide that this fighter will suit their needs.

    The date doesn't matter which you pick their first copy of F-5 the HESA Azarakhsh was introduced in 1997 ****decades**** after they received F5 and since the block of sales. But yet u fail to understand that.

    Iran did reject the F-16 as you think they can get hold it easily and whenever they feel like it they have never done so, so in effect rejected the shit aircraft. India doesn't want it because it's crap. Most countries now looking to replace the F-16. And F-16 doesn't fit Iran's needs, and Ur last comment contradicts itself.

    Go start a thread "tsavo lions F-16 and Iran fetish and fantasy theory" I dare you to. And see how many people come and discuss it with you. Because it's dead idea. And quite frankly everyone including me are fed up of this stupid idea. And I will no longer reply to Ur nonsense. Start a new thread or a MOD can move this drivel. Please
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:44 pm

    Ok, i legit don't get where this F-16 craze is coming from, from what we know, Iran only has one F-16 that they got from Venezuela.
    Not enough to cannibalize and fly, because there's only one.

    The old Su-22s they have are a much better deal, since they had so many.

    And if Iran was legit interested in an F-16 type aircraft, then it would pursue the acquisition of either the JF-17 or the J-10C.
    And considering that Pakistan bends the knee to the U.S constantly, then the J-10 is more likely.
    Maybe even license production, just to shove it to the U.S.

    Now, Iran has made itself clear that it wants Su-30s once the embargo is gone, they will also need to improve there existing Mig-29 and Su-24 fleet.
    So expect a big push to either acquire Mig-29M license production or at least Mig-29SMT production rights.

    They will probly also want some Mi-28s, since Iran doesn't seem to have proper attack Helicopters..


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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