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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu May 28, 2020 11:40 pm

    MiG-29Range: 1,430 km (890 mi, 770 nmi) with maximum internal fuel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Specifications_(MiG-29)

    F-16C/D Block 30 Combat radius 295 nmi (546 km), or 590 nmi (1,092km) range; the F-16E/F Block 60 has CFTs which ..provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_variants#F-16E/F_Block_60

    The Iranians could fit CFTs on older F-16s & get better performing fighters than the smaller MiG-29s. With them, less Su-30s would be needed.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 29, 2020 12:00 am

    Why are you stuck with this idea of f-16 for Iran ? US will never allow it and they wouldn't have neither the maintenance tools or the weapons for it.

    F-14 were bought with everything needed and manuals for using everything and it was easier to produce re-engineered iranian version. Most of the things are analogic outdated stuff that are easy to make nowadays even for Iran. F-16 is an other story, it's full of electronics made specifically for it with the softwares associated.

    Only way to get them is a coup by the Shah.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 1:51 am

    This is not an obsession, just an extrapolating exercise for me- it would be interesting if it actually happened, the Iranians thumbing their nose on Americans & proving they can do it!
    Iraq/Pakistan can give them all the relevant manuals & tools. If they can build avionics/EW means to hack into UAV cameras/controls & put them on their own UCAVs, developing & changing avionics/software for F-16s won't be a big problem. They could always ask Chinese & Russians to help with that.
    The US doesn't want to allow many things but many of those do happen regardless- "the dog barks while the caravan keeps moving".


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 5:04 am; edited 2 times in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 5:06 am

    Exactly! It's better to have a blue jay in hand than a swan in the sky!
    In the best case, they could still get the 2nd hand F-16s combat ready sooner than those Su-30s, at a fraction of the cost.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri May 29, 2020 8:27 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:This is not an obsession, just an extrapolating exercise for me- it would be interesting if it actually happened, the Iranians thumbing their nose on Americans & proving they can do it!
    Iraq/Pakistan can give them all the relevant manuals & tools. If they can build avionics/EW means to hack into UAV cameras/controls & put them on their own UCAVs, developing & changing avionics/software for F-16s won't be a big problem. They could always ask Chinese & Russians to help with that.
    The US doesn't want to allow many things but many of those do happen regardless- "the dog barks while the caravan keeps moving".

    But it won't happen plain and simple.

    Russia and China won't help them with avionics and software for F-16.

    And developing software avionics and spare parts is a big problem. Not why u think think it's easy. Iran has struggled like hell to keep what they in flying condition. You talk as if it's easy if it was India who has a better aviation industry than Iran would had had Tejas in service a decade ago and Iran would have built completely new own design aircraft but guess what they haven't, why because it's not easy it's not as simple as u think. Take a look and China another example of a country which has tried to build it's own aviation industry and has taken it decades and it still has issues with engines and they throw loads of money into it.

    This F-16 dream of urs is just that a dream that will never be reality
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am

    This reminds me the discussion when tsavo was trying to convince everyone that the best for russia is to start producing the Chinese y20, the copy of a soviet transport aircraft...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 9:37 am

    If they get a hold of their missiles & pods, the software already there can still be used, at least until simpler computers &/ software can be installed. It's not like trying to use a flying saucer in combat made by aliens.. I doubt they have a remote control to turn it off from the US like a switch- even then, it could be bypassed.
    Don't underestimate the Iranians- they r no less smart than the Indians.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 29, 2020 1:52 pm

    The F-16 is still in demand today, and many air forces are looking to replace aging inventories with F-16s.

    Maybe so because the F-35 is turning into a total money pit dog, so of course current F-16 operators want to continue using them, but how many new users who have never used them before are buying them?



    FYI: Iran placed an order for 160 aircraft for the former Imperial Iranian Air Force (IIAF) in 1976,

    That was the CIA controlled regime... they were hardly going to order MiGs now were they.

    The current regime that is not controlled by American spies and turncoats has never shown any interest in F-16s except being able to shoot them down.

    If the Shah regime stayed in power, Iran could have up to 300 F-16s.

    And if they did what you are suggesting would make sense... they could fly their F-16s to cover the skies defended by their Challenger tanks that they paid for the development of but never received because of the very same revolution.

    If Iran had some of them delivered before 1979, they would be used in war with Iraq & still be flying just like their F-4/5/14s.

    No they would not... the F-16 is a far more electronic based aircraft... the flight control system is fly by wire... the Americans would have disabled them before they left and the Iranians would have had little chance of reviving them... their best bet at the time would have been handing them over to the soviets for a few huge wads of cash... they would not have had enough to be useful and they would soon become useless without proper parts support anyway and would have zero value. At the time the F-16 was a Sidewinder only aircraft anyway...

    Yeah, having f16 in the 80s would have been quite useful....

    They would have only gotten a few if any at all... not enough for a viable force and even if it was a viable force of say 40 or 50 planes they wouldn't be able to operate for very long before being grounded. The F-35 is suffering the same problems... not enough spare parts because they don't make enough right now for the new planes let alone spares...

    Especially since they cannot get them with modern electronics but just some spares and old scraps from countries that cannot operate them anymore.

    Which would not exist at the time (80s).

    Why should they buy scraps (for which they do not have any pilot, mechanic or engineer with any experience with them) and spend years trying to reverse engineering them?

    Exactly... trying to use F-16s would mean a minimum of 5 years with nothing while they try to master the aircraft design and its parts, and considering the electronic components more likely 10 years with no new fighter plane because they are wasting time with an old obsolete jet they have never used before during a period when they can not only buy newer designs but get the licence to produce them locally...

    getting a squadron worth of them will take a long time, while off the shelf "turn key" F-16s could be delivered starting today.

    Bullshit... an entire flight of Iraqis fly to Iran today and land on Iranian airfields... it will be 5 years before they have any pilots trained to fly these aircraft assuming the Iraqi pilots stay and show them how to fly the planes... it will be 10 years and lots of crashes before the ground crew work out how to maintain these birds and it will be ten years before there are any Iranian parts to install in planes to keep them operating...

    Essentially they would strip them down and examine them inside and out and then ship the parts back to Iraq in boxes and keep the high tech secret shit for further study... effectively what the Americans did with the MiG-25 flown to Japan...

    In comparison with a production contract signed they can start building the factories for first assembly and then production of their new planes from China or Russia. Payment in oil would essentially make them free for Iran because no one else is taking their oil anyway...

    How do u suppose they keep their F-4/5s, not to metion the bigger F-14s, in flying condition?

    They had them in service for years and the American companies they bought them from supplied them with training and support equipment and tools as well as trained their pilots to fly the new planes they had bought. F-16s = no training no parts with a totally different generation of aircraft...

    they could do the same with mig29. If I am not mistaken Russia got back some older export versione of mig29 from Malesia and other countries, when such customers ordered su 30...

    Iran could pay in oil to replace their existing MiG-29s with MiG-29M2s which is a seriously improved design that they could produce for themselves so no one could cut them off... the exception would be the engines I suspect because no one is going to just give away new engine technology, but they can buy a large surplus of engine parts and store them just in case...

    MiG-29Range: 1,430 km (890 mi, 770 nmi) with maximum internal fuel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Specifications_(MiG-29)

    F-16C/D Block 30 Combat radius 295 nmi (546 km), or 590 nmi (1,092km) range; the F-16E/F Block 60 has CFTs which ..provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_variants#F-16E/F_Block_60

    Wow... so with the numbers you provide a bog standard MiG-29 has better flight range than the equivalent F-16... you do understand that later model MiG-29s also have increased fuel capacity the same as later model F-16s do... but the real kicker is that Iran can buy new weapons from Russia but cannot buy them from America... and that the American F-16 plane kinda relies on GPS for navigation which American could turn off over Iran any time they want meaning it would be useless. MiG-29s on the other had have decent navigation systems... especially the MiG-29M2 models which are updates from the last 10-15 years or so... in comparison with the block 60 F-16 which is a 1990s plane... but of course most importantly Iran is very unlikely to get their hands on any model F-16 any better than an A or B model from last century.

    This is not an obsession, just an extrapolating exercise for me- it would be interesting if it actually happened, the Iranians thumbing their nose on Americans & proving they can do it!

    No it wouldn't... it would be a stupid empty gesture to limit the Iranian air force to an old model American plane they know inside and out... it would be enormously expensive and time consuming to reverse engineer and no country will help them because any country that does that has any ties to the US will be shat on from a great height... Iran can offer nothing to any country that will compensate them for that... it would be literally suicide for Pakistan and start an invasion of Venezuela, and another coup in Iraq with real pro US hardliners to take power, and Turkey would be crushed economically by the US...

    Iraq/Pakistan can give them all the relevant manuals & tools.

    No they can't... if they did they would find all US support for those aircraft would immediately stop so not only would Iran not be able to use them for very long... they wont be able to use them for long either... what sort of gain are they going to get to compensate them for losing a fighter they paid for and use to defend their countries. The US is already pissed that Iraq is so not anti Iran at the moment so a chance to overthrow the government and put a real hardliner in there would be a dream come true for most American politicians. The US is also pissed they chose the nutter terrorist Pakistan to support over the 1.5 billion potential buyer of blue jeans and coke and McDonalds... at the time Pakistan gave them access to Afghanistan so it was worth it and India was so poor how many pairs of jeans could they buy... but now more and more have money and they want to buy American shit... because the young generation think American culture is cool and moral and fair...

    Pakistan helping Iran with F-16s would be the excuse many in Washington are looking for to change sides and drop Pakistan and suck up to India instead... all those consumers wanting American shit gives them a hard on.

    Pakistan is not really in a better position to support F-16s than Venezuela or Iraq is because as I said plane makers make most of their money in spares and support so they are hardly going to show the locals how to support them and make the parts needed to keep them running... they don't... and Iraq and Pakistan and Iran know it... Iran know it best of all because it wasn't easy keeping old planes flying.

    If they can build avionics/EW means to hack into UAV cameras/controls & put them on their own UCAVs, developing & changing avionics/software for F-16s won't be a big problem. They could always ask Chinese & Russians to help with that.

    No they wont... why would Russia or China help Iran learn to use F-16s for? For a start what would China or Russia know about supporting F-16 operations to start with, and anyway those two countries sell aircraft why would they want to help support someone elses plane?

    How often do you read about MiG or Sukhoi helping India out with upgrades for their Mirage 2000 planes or their Jaguars?

    They have developed packages but only for countries that can no longer communicate with the country they bought them from... South Africa couldn't get new engines for their french planes so offers of F-1s with Al-31 engines happened but nothing came of it...

    The US doesn't want to allow many things but many of those do happen regardless- "the dog barks while the caravan keeps moving".

    The US can't do a huge amount to Russia or China or that much more to Iran really... but they could gut Pakistan or Turkey or Iraq like fish... they already occupy Iraq and could invade Venezuela if they wanted to.

    Big assumptions there...nothing to say anything will be sold to Iran post October. Very much a case of watch this space...

    They are going to have to make some serious offers to Putin and Xi if they want them to not honour the agreement they signed and allow such sales. Remember as far as everyone is concerned the US has left the agreement, but China and Russia and the EU and Iran is still in, but in fact it is the EU that is not living up to their end of the bargain by not following through with the promised investments for fear of US retaliation. Iran is allowed to do as it is doing because the EU is defaulting on their part of the agreement anyway... so when that deadline rolls around China and Russia and indeed the EU are obliged to roll back the sanctions on military equipment sales to Iran.

    Exactly! It's better to have a blue jay in hand than a swan in the sky!

    Not if the blue jay is DOA. If the US got wind of any attempt to transfer planes to Iran this way they would simply destroy them everywhere they are detected... it is not an act of war if you are destroying your own property... and F-16s are leased and never sold.

    In the best case, they could still get the 2nd hand F-16s combat ready sooner than those Su-30s, at a fraction of the cost.

    No they couldn't.

    You are being willfully silly again... like you were when you suggested the Russians should buy tiltrotor and tandem rotor helicopters... just let it go it is not a good idea.

    Except in wartime, agreements are rarely kept. Or not guaranteed.

    Well that is what I mean about local production... the best guarantee that you wont get cut off no matter what is a technology transfer... so I am talking about some very expensive MiG-29M2s and some very expensive Su-30s, because you are not paying for the best and most capable... you are completely buying a design and the rights to make more for yourself... presumably with a promise not to export in competition of the original.

    Iran owning the MiG-29M2 design and making the parts for it means no one can blockade them and prevent them using them or making more... the issue will be the engines because engine technology is generally not for sale, so maybe either buy old model engines completely or newer models and just buy enormous amounts of spare parts so a blockade would not hurt for a period long enough to sort out your own spares.

    They can then progress by working with the relevant companies that make the planes to improve it as a joint venture so Iran owns the technology it is paying to develop and can locally produce that too... obviously the Russian company also owns it but if Iran does not want them to sell to a third party then they could veto but if the sale goes ahead then Iran should get a cut of the profits too for their bit.

    Iran could pay in oil... it is not like they have a huge list of countries they are selling that to so there should be plenty and from a Russian perspective they can get large volumes of oil which they might get processed in Russia or set up processing in Iran or whatever and trade it when oil prices go up...

    A way around this supply of Ammo and spare parts for Russian fighter jets, is to agree a continuous supply of spare parts, manufactured by Russia. A static and old and large stockpile of spares is not useful, since these can not be stored long term, without deterioration.

    I think as part of the deal going for a slightly older/cheaper model but still with plenty of upgrade potential they can buy the rights to make most of the essential spare parts themselves so supply wont be a problem. Cooperation on weapons would be useful for both sides as well... it is not properly recognised that other countries can do interesting things too... Iran... Turkey... Italy... they have people with talent... if the local version of a weapon is not as good as a Russian equivalent that does not matter if the differences are not important... the local production makes it the better choice some times anyway...

    So Russia, if not providing manufacturing rights to Iran and agreements over limitation on production and sales not a guarantee in wartime.

    As you say... anything can be signed on paper... the Americans didn't honour agreements signed before the revolution after their puppet was removed... and for all we know an Iranian leader might get in to power that is hostile to Russia and wants them out of Syria, or equally a new leader in Russia might want to suck up to the west by cutting ties with Iran and other countries...

    The main exception would be engine parts because heat and use and wear and tear means engine parts are critical and expensive and valuable.... China is not dumb or stupid but they haven't mastered the RD-33 from the late 1970s... and that is not an accident... engines are miracles of technology in materials and metallurgy and design... there are not actually that many countries that have actually mastered them...

    How many flights does modern jet last, before being shot down ? Twenty? There must be a number somewhere......

    Hard to say... too much variation... who is on what side... which side is taking on the superpower on their own... are they going to use their planes or bury them... that sort of thing... who can take down the others command and control capacity first or at all.

    It's not like trying to use a flying saucer in combat made by aliens..

    Actually it is.

    The Software for the F-16 is secret and you can't extract it just because you have access to its hardware... you can't just download the software and go through it and make some changes and then upload the modified version and away you go... the software on an F-16 is compiled... it is 1s and 0s... you couldn't read it even if it was printed on your screen any more than you could read grains of sand on a beach...

    I doubt they have a remote control to turn it off from the US like a switch- even then, it could be bypassed.

    They wouldn't need to... test pilots die all the time test flying unfamiliar enemy aircraft trying to learn their secrets...

    Don't underestimate the Iranians- they r no less smart than the Indians.

    I don't underestimate either, but you have to be realistic... even if an F-16 landed in Russia it would be an enormous pain in the ass to reverse engineer. When a few B-29s landed there and they reverse engineered them they didn't even copy them completely... they used Soviet engines that were more power and didn't have the fire problems the american engines had... and they replaced all the 50 calibre HMGs with vastly more capable 20mm cannon in electric turrets... it was also lighter.

    The point is that it took a damn sight longer than it would have taken to put into service a mature plane already in production in another country.

    Sadly for the Soviets that was not possible... for Iran it is.

    And concerning the short range of mig29, if I am not mistaken among the improvements introduced in the SMT modifications there are also changes to the structure that allow larger tanks to be used, partially solving the issue.

    T means fuel but all the upgrades like the S and the M and the T included significant increases in onboard fuel.

    Even if it did lack range it has an inflight refuelling probe and external fuel tanks if needed too.

    And if that is a problem please tell me which F-16 has longer range than any model Su-30 ever made...
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Fri May 29, 2020 5:21 pm



    I say this because, the planes Iran needs are for close contact and WVR use. Since it can use own planes  and SAM to launch BVR missiles. Without having to have particularly agile or capable planes. Let the missiles do the walking. But in combat, not all planes can be defeated in BVR battles. As has been shown repeatedly. For this reason a number are needed to close any gaps in defence.

    For this, we need to know, everything else being equal, ideal parity, the average number of missions before a dog fighting pilot is shot down. Modern info on this is scant. And unreliable. Plus, we deal in many cases, where different classes of plane and pilot were fighting against each other.

    But I saw that in WW 2,  the average lifespan of  British fighter pilot was four weaks.  Although the Germans had more planes in the air, one can assume that most dog fights, were a one to one affair. Also assuming that each plane was scrambled once a day. Then we are talking about an average lifespan of 28 or 30 missions. I think this can be an accurate analog, comparison between two modern jets engaged in dogfights. Using cannons or similar.



    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 7:21 pm

    By the way, why should the Iraqis gifts their f16 to Iran?
    The current regime that is not controlled by American spies and turncoats has never shown any interest in F-16s except being able to shoot them down.
    that was before Iraq got F-16th & Suleimani got killed. Now, those planes r slowly becoming scrap metal in Iraqis' hands. They could cooperate to keep them in the air.
    trying to use F-16s would mean a minimum of 5 years with nothing while they try to master the aircraft design and its parts, and considering the electronic components more likely 10 years
    F-16s = no training no parts with a totally different generation of aircraft...
    They could cannibalize some for parts, & Venezuela could supply them too- enough to keep at least a dozen combat ready.
    it will be 5 years before they have any pilots trained to fly these aircraft assuming the pilots stay and show them how to fly the planes...
    Iraqi & Ven., if not Pakistani pilots/maintainers could be hired outright until the locals r trained., & it won't take that long.
    the American F-16 plane kinda relies on GPS for navigation which American could turn off over Iran any time they want meaning it would be useless.
    turning it off for all other friendly users in the area as well. They can be given avionics to use the GLONASS &/ Beidou systems.
    it would be enormously expensive and time consuming.. even if an F-16 landed in Russia it would be an enormous pain in the ass to reverse engineer.
    not if we r talking about just parts, not an entire plane.
    Pakistan helping Iran with F-16s would be the excuse many in Washington are looking for to change sides and drop Pakistan and suck up to India instead...
    being closely allied with PRC, Pakistan-US relations r already in the gutter. Even if all US support stops, the PAF can get more Chinese & Russian planes to replace its F-16s.
    why would Russia or China help Iran learn to use F-16s for?
    they could get a few for themselves for eval./adversary training & have the know how should Iran run into problems. Stronger IrAF will be better for both in the ME region vs. the US/Israeli warmongering & adventurism.
    How often do you read about MiG or Sukhoi helping India out with upgrades for their Mirage 2000 planes or their Jaguars?
    I did hear that Israel upgraded Romanian MiG-21s & modified IAF's French Mirages:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21_variants#Upgrade_programmes

    Also, their Mach 2.0 capable Kfir first flew in 1973, but the aircraft is an unlicensed derivative of the French Dassault Mirage V—which first flew in 1967. The Mirage V itself is a ground attack version of the Mirage III, which first flew in 1956. Thus, the Kfir design ultimately originates in the 1950s, but nonetheless, the latest Israeli modifications to the jet make the ancient fighter viable even in the 21st Century—and against much newer fourth-generation fighters. Even if the Kfir is old, it was always a fairly capable airframe. The U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps leased Israeli Kfirs under the F-21 designation for use as aggressors during the 1980s against American fourth-generation fighters like F-14, F-15, F-16 and F/A-18.
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/need-your-air-force-upgraded-the-cheap-call-israel-14321

    IAF's French Mirages Fly With Russian Missiles, Thanks To Israeli 'Jugaad'
    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-french-mirage-2000-fly-with-russian-r-73-missiles-thanks-to-israeli-jugaad-2067318

    If the Israelis can do it, the Iranians/Russians/Chinese can modify F-16s to carry Russian/Chinese missiles & other gear.
    but they could gut Pakistan or Turkey or Iraq like fish... they already occupy Iraq and could invade Venezuela if they wanted to.
    They can bomb & sanction but that's it. Years of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan decimated the US Army- they occupy only a few bases & r in the process of leaving. They don't even want to invade Venezuela, except by proxies & mercenaries.

    China and Russia and indeed the EU are obliged to roll back the sanctions on military equipment sales to Iran.
    with current oil prices, does Iran have enough gold, $, Rubles & Yuan to pay for them? What else can it burter- rugs & pistachios?
    If the US got wind of any attempt to transfer planes to Iran this way they would simply destroy them everywhere they are detected...
    Iran can just occupy/send personnel to those airfields & learn to operate them from there; during the Gulf War, the US couldn't interdict any Iraqi planes fleeing to Iran- I was told so by a USN pilot who was on that failed mission.
    No they couldn't.
    Like they "couldn't" use F-14s, build ships & subs, copy/improve the F-5, launch a satellite, hack & reverse engineer US stealth UAV, operate uranuim enrichment/nuclear plants, & make PG BMs. I'll take it with a grain of salt.
    They wouldn't need to... test pilots die all the time test flying unfamiliar enemy aircraft trying to learn their secrets...
    1 Iraqi pilot also crashed his F-16 on a training flight in Arizona- but there r dozens of pilots left to instruct the Iranians before local pilots r trained. It's a job not w/o risk, even in peacetime.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 11:04 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 29, 2020 9:04 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    China and Russia and indeed the EU are obliged to roll back the sanctions on military equipment sales to Iran.
    with current oil prices, does Iran have enough gold, $, Rubles & Yuan to pay for them? What else can it burter- rugs & pistachios?
    Why not, some south asian country was trading palm oil and other goods in exchange for sukhoi aircrafts...

    Jokes apart, as some user suggested, IRAN could even trade  some crude oil and natural gas.
    Russia could than sell those indirectly to EU or to US..

    By the way, they don't have only pistachios and persian rugs for export,  they produce also caviar and a lot of fruits.
    Just to name some: pistachios, Berries, Dates, Apricots, melons and Watermelons, Cherries, Apples, Figs, etc.

    Nobody says they need gold or money to trade...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 9:49 pm

    IRAN could even trade some crude oil and natural gas.
    Russia could than sell those indirectly to EU or to US..
    it'll take a lot of oil & time with current prices to pay for those Su-30s.
    ..they don't have only pistachios and persian rugs for export, they produce also caviar and a lot of fruits.
    Just to name some: pistachios, Berries, Dates, Apricots, melons and Watermelons, Cherries, Apples, Figs, etc.
    then, those can be traded in for more Iraqi F-16s than the Su-30s. Some Iranian F-4/5s &/ J-7s with support along with former Iraqi AF planes can also be traded in to sweeten the deal.
    I admit it won't be easy to integrate them, but it may be worth it in the long run. On the plus side, their MiG-29s use 2 engines while the F-16s only 1, even if their ranges r going to be equal with CFTs.
    Their F-4/5/14s can work together with F-16s allowing more flexibility & new tactics. Putting a powerful radar in the nose &/ EW pods, ARMs &/ AshMs will make it a decent EW/maritime strike plane.
    Their Su-24s can then take time off & last longer!
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    IRAN could even trade some crude oil and natural gas.
    Russia could than sell those indirectly to EU or to US..
    it'll take a lot of oil & time with current prices to pay for those Su-30s.

    Crude oil is already back at 35$/barrel and by year end will be at or above 50$..

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..they don't have only pistachios and persian rugs for export,  they produce also caviar and a lot of fruits.
    Just to name some: pistachios, Berries, Dates, Apricots, melons and Watermelons, Cherries, Apples, Figs, etc.
    then, those can be traded in for more Iraqi F-16s than the Su-30s. Some Iranian F-4/5s &/ J-7s with support along with former Iraqi AF planes can also be traded in to sweeten the deal.
    I admit it won't be easy to integrate them, but it may be worth it in the long run. On the plus side, their MiG-29s use 2 engines while the F-16s only 1, even if their ranges r going to be equal with CFTs.
    Why should it be worth in the long run? And what is the advantage of having a single engine fighter?

    If they want to save money they can also buy some chinese upgrade of the mig21 with a mig29 engine (the JF17), and it will still be a more sensible choice than the f16...

    I listed some of the fruits produced in Iran to show what they can use to trade... by the way, later russia could also sell them wheat in exchange for fruits...

    Iran could even use fruit export to pay for civilian airplanes...

    Note:

    I am not saying that the JF17 is better than the f16, just that for a country sanctioned by US the use of american planes is less than ideal.

    For a similar reason, but with opposite results, several east European NATO countries are removing mig29 from their fleet (even if they have experience and training in operating them), because US does not allow them to sign military contracts with Russia...

    Note 2) I continue to believe that a mig29M or SMT is at least equivalent or better than a modern f16 (of course you cannot compare a never upgraded export model of mig29A with a F-16E/F)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 10:54 pm

    Why should it be worth in the long run? And what is the advantage of having a single engine fighter?
    less logistical maintenance burdens, as well as fuel consumption.
    If they want to save money they can also buy some chinese upgrade of the mig21 with a mig29 engine (the JF17), and it will still be a more sensible choice than the f16...
    those acquisitions can be done in parallel- they don't need to be mutually exclusive.
    Should the Iraqi, Pakistani & Turkish F-16 be grounded, Iran could give them a new lease on life.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 30, 2020 1:06 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    By the way, why should the Iraqis gifts their f16 to Iran?
    The current regime that is not controlled by American spies and turncoats has never shown any interest in F-16s except being able to shoot them down.
    that was before Iraq got F-16th & Suleimani got killed. Now, those planes r slowly becoming scrap metal in Iraqis' hands. They could cooperate to keep them in the air.
    trying to use F-16s would mean a minimum of 5 years with nothing while they try to master the aircraft design and its parts, and considering the electronic components more likely 10 years
    F-16s = no training no parts with a totally different generation of aircraft...
    They could cannibalize some for parts, & Venezuela could supply them too- enough to keep at least a dozen combat ready.
    it will be 5 years before they have any pilots trained to fly these aircraft assuming the pilots stay and show them how to fly the planes...
    Iraqi & Ven., if not Pakistani pilots/maintainers could be hired outright until the locals r trained., & it won't take that long.
    the American F-16 plane kinda relies on GPS for navigation which American could turn off over Iran any time they want meaning it would be useless.
    turning it off for all other friendly users in the area as well. They can be given avionics to use the GLONASS &/ Beidou systems.
    it would be enormously expensive and time consuming.. even if an F-16 landed in Russia it would be an enormous pain in the ass to reverse engineer.
    not if we r talking about just parts, not an entire plane.
    Pakistan helping Iran with F-16s would be the excuse many in Washington are looking for to change sides and drop Pakistan and suck up to India instead...
    being closely allied with PRC, Pakistan-US relations r already in the gutter. Even if all US support stops, the PAF can get more Chinese & Russian planes to replace its F-16s.
    why would Russia or China help Iran learn to use F-16s for?
    they could get a few for themselves for eval./adversary training & have the know how should Iran run into problems. Stronger IrAF will be better for both in the ME region vs. the US/Israeli warmongering & adventurism.
    How often do you read about MiG or Sukhoi helping India out with upgrades for their Mirage 2000 planes or their Jaguars?
    I did hear that Israel upgraded Romanian MiG-21s & modified IAF's French Mirages:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21_variants#Upgrade_programmes

    Also, their Mach 2.0 capable Kfir first flew in 1973, but the aircraft is an unlicensed derivative of the French Dassault Mirage V—which first flew in 1967. The Mirage V itself is a ground attack version of the Mirage III, which first flew in 1956. Thus, the Kfir design ultimately originates in the 1950s, but nonetheless, the latest Israeli modifications to the jet make the ancient fighter viable even in the 21st Century—and against much newer fourth-generation fighters. Even if the Kfir is old, it was always a fairly capable airframe. The U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps leased Israeli Kfirs under the F-21 designation for use as aggressors during the 1980s against American fourth-generation fighters like F-14, F-15, F-16 and F/A-18.
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/need-your-air-force-upgraded-the-cheap-call-israel-14321

    IAF's French Mirages Fly With Russian Missiles, Thanks To Israeli 'Jugaad'
    https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-french-mirage-2000-fly-with-russian-r-73-missiles-thanks-to-israeli-jugaad-2067318

    If the Israelis can do it, the Iranians/Russians/Chinese can modify F-16s to carry Russian/Chinese missiles & other gear.
    but they could gut Pakistan or Turkey or Iraq like fish... they already occupy Iraq and could invade Venezuela if they wanted to.
    They can bomb & sanction but that's it. Years of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan decimated the US Army- they occupy only a few bases & r in the process of leaving. They don't even want to invade Venezuela, except by proxies & mercenaries.

    China and Russia and indeed the EU are obliged to roll back the sanctions on military equipment sales to Iran.
    with current oil prices, does Iran have enough gold, $, Rubles & Yuan to pay for them? What else can it burter- rugs & pistachios?
    If the US got wind of any attempt to transfer planes to Iran this way they would simply destroy them everywhere they are detected...
    Iran can just occupy/send personnel to those airfields & learn to operate them from there; during the Gulf War, the US couldn't interdict any Iraqi planes fleeing to Iran- I was told so by a USN pilot who was on that failed mission.
    No they couldn't.
    Like they "couldn't" use F-14s, build ships & subs, copy/improve the F-5, launch a satellite, hack & reverse engineer US stealth UAV, operate uranuim enrichment/nuclear plants, & make PG BMs. I'll take it with a grain of salt.
    They wouldn't need to... test pilots die all the time test flying unfamiliar enemy aircraft trying to learn their secrets...
    1 Iraqi pilot also crashed his F-16 on a training flight in Arizona- but there r dozens of pilots left to instruct the Iranians before local pilots r trained. It's a job not w/o risk, even in peacetime.

    Well what a load of nonsense. I like how u said they can only bomb and sanction them that's it. As of its nothing at all.

    USA would bomb the shot out of any aircraft that was passed to Iran. And you talk as of everything from training and making parts software etc is just a simple thing to do.
    It's not.

    I would be more than confident to place a bet that Iran never gets F-16 by 2030. Because it's that ludicrous idea.

    You also state Iran build ships and subs etc. Just like their copies of F-5 which is a light fighter nothing more nothing less it not 4 or 5th gen and not heavy fighter either. Their copies of cobra heli has only produced a handful like its light fighters and their ships well ask yourself how many decent warships have they built in last 20yrs and then ask yourself how many decent subs have they built in 20yrs. The besat they attempted to build since 2008 still hasn't arrived. Their ghadir class was based on North Korean yono class a 1960's design. Their subs are either small or midget type and fairly basic nothing to write home about. And remember building ur own midget sub or own tank etc is completely different engineering to building heavy fighters. If Iran had the capability they would have designed and built their own aircraft (zero copies) even China which has mote money and research facilities copied aircraft because even they know it ain't an easy industry to crack. Iran has far more than just oil rugs nuts to offer how very silly comments from u. Ur losing all credibility
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 30, 2020 6:53 am

    I like how u said they can only bomb and sanction them that's it. As of its nothing at all.
    Iraq, Iran, & NK been bombed &/ sanctioned for many years & still survived.

    USA would bomb the shot out of any aircraft that was passed to Iran.
    Flight time from Iraq to Iran is very short; the US fighters won't be there in time to interdict them. In Iran, they'll be hidden in camouflage/shelters/caves deep inside its territory. Those F-16s r not that advanced to risk starting a war over them at the wrong time.
    I would be more than confident to place a bet that Iran never gets F-16 by 2030. Because it's that ludicrous idea.
    history is full of surprises!

    And remember building ur own midget sub or own tank etc is completely different engineering to building heavy fighters.
    the F-16 is medium, not a heavy fighter. As mentioned, they may get enough of them w/o having to build their own copy/derivative.

    Iran has far more than just oil rugs nuts to offer how very silly comments from u.
    well, other agricultural produce may be added; what else besides natural gas can they sell in huge amounts? Salt form the dry lakes?
    They could give concessions to build a waterway between the Gulf & the Caspian Sea- geography is their biggest strategic asset, being even better situated than Turkey. Or they could build huge solar power plants in their deserts & sell electricity to their neighbors.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2020 1:29 pm

    I don't want there to be an obstacle to sale of Russian jets to Iran, because of over insistence on obtaining the manufacturing rights by Iran for some components. Since Russians may not want to do this, and it may stop sales going through. It is useful to have some manufacturing for perishable parts. But not essential or necessary, providing that a sufficient and updated inventory of parts and Ammo is kept in storage.

    There are countries that just buy off the shelf, and there are more ambitious countries who want more than just what other companies can offer them... they want custom made and they want assured products that cannot be denied to them.

    Iran has a hard won capacity to look after its planes on its own... this is unusual on the planet because these are American planes which are normally not for sale... normally just for lease... if you behave.

    The point is that Russia has lost the large market of like minded richer countries (ie eastern europe), and of the rest of the world most of their other clients couldn't really afford to pay full prices... right now there is China and India and Algeria and you could add Egypt... but not really Syria because they are not really in a position for major expensive purchases.

    Iran is not super rich but has resources that are in demand... right now its value is tiny but in the long term is bound to recover...

    Iran could sell oil contracts the EU used to own to Russia simply because the EU is not meeting their requirements in the agreement so perhaps Russian companies can develop Irans resources and make some money for both countries...

    I say this because, the planes Iran needs are for close contact and WVR use

    The problem with close contact combat with high off boresight missiles lots of missiles are going to be used and lots of planes are going to be lost... a MiG-29M2 with a helmet mounted sight and some new short range AAMs would be very potent, but then you could be smarter and use R-27T and R-27ET missiles too which means targets further away or running away can be chased down by these bigger heavier and faster IR guided missiles... together with R-73s it would probably give you a real edge in close range air to air fighting...

    I think this can be an accurate analog, comparison between two modern jets engaged in dogfights. Using cannons or similar.

    I disagree... there are so many factors that effect the outcome and the situation is completely different... unlike the Germans during WWII the Americans will do everything they can to knock down your defences including radars and sams and comm centres and HQs and of course your airfields and aircraft while they are on the ground... a bit like what the germans did in the soviet union in the first few days..

    Therefore, the amount of spares and Ammo for any Russian plane for Iran, should not be below this amount. And as long as this is achieved. Then makes little difference if parts imported or manufactured. If money is short, it may even be much cheaper and simpler, to have stocks of planes and spares , instead of manufacture.

    With Iraq it was about ten years between when the embargo and economic sanctions started and when western aircraft attacked and invaded Iraq itself... they will do everything they can to weaken you before they start any attack and then they will try to find weak points to exploit during the attack.

    Simply buy more planes and spares, with the money spent on a factory or manufacturing rights. May even be more advantageous.

    That is certainly a consideration... buy some planes now with a large spares and support base and then decide where to go in the future... licence produce, produce your own from scratch, or joint venture with a foreign company to create a combination of the two... an in production aircraft adapted to suit your needs better...

    Replacing all your current aircraft would mean a large number of aircraft involved which would make the deal more interesting for them in terms of localisation of production or assembly and the support arrangement.

    that was before Iraq got F-16th & Suleimani got killed. Now, those planes r slowly becoming scrap metal in Iraqis' hands. They could cooperate to keep them in the air.

    You are making no sense... if Iraq can't maintain them... and they can't... then how is Iran supposed to help... they know less about the planes than the Iraqis who can't maintain them on their own either.

    They could cannibalize some for parts, & Venezuela could supply them too- enough to keep at least a dozen combat ready.

    The parts that need replacing are the same parts on all the aircraft so they will all be wearing out... Venezuelas aircraft will already be worn out and be of no help to anyone.

    Iraqi & Ven., if not Pakistani pilots/maintainers could be hired outright until the locals r trained., & it won't take that long.

    Trained on what... Venezuela used the planes for a few years no and their planes are no longer flying... how can they help a country that has never flown F-16s and doesn't have any to fly them and keep them flying?

    turning it off for all other friendly users in the area as well.

    There are no US friendly users of the GPS signal inside Iran.

    They can be given avionics to use the GLONASS &/ Beidou systems.

    So now they have to integrate foreign navigation systems into an American system they have never seen or used before, are these Iranians or Magicians?

    not if we r talking about just parts, not an entire plane.

    Yes it would be a pain in the ass whether it is the entire plane or just individual parts...

    they could get a few for themselves for eval./adversary training & have the know how should Iran run into problems. Stronger IrAF will be better for both in the ME region vs. the US/Israeli warmongering & adventurism.

    I doubt they care about the models of F-16 the Iranians could ever get their hands on in any numbers... which is zero anyway.

    Iran would be much stronger buying 40-50 Su-30s to replace their F-14s and Su-24s and about 150 MiG-29M2s to replace existing F-4s and MiG-29s...

    If the Israelis can do it, the Iranians/Russians/Chinese can modify F-16s to carry Russian/Chinese missiles & other gear.

    Yeah, getting them to fire Russian and Chinese weapons is not really the biggest problem here... it is more a case of getting the damn things to fly on a regular basis... which I am doubting.

    They can bomb & sanction but that's it.

    They can threaten to sanction any country that trades with them... which would devastate their economies for decades to come.

    Years of fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan decimated the US Army- they occupy only a few bases & r in the process of leaving.

    They don't leave... they say they will but it is a lie.

    They don't even want to invade Venezuela, except by proxies & mercenaries.

    Venezuela helping Iran with F-16 parts would justify military action...

    with current oil prices, does Iran have enough gold, $, Rubles & Yuan to pay for them? What else can it burter- rugs & pistachios?

    Oil contracts for Iranian oil fields would do...

    Iran can just occupy/send personnel to those airfields & learn to operate them from there; during the Gulf War, the US couldn't interdict any Iraqi planes fleeing to Iran- I was told so by a USN pilot who was on that failed mission.

    They didn't actually have troops on the ground at that stage and at that time they didn't care because they were Iraqi aircraft that were going so any plane that ran away was a plane they didn't have to deal with in the air.

    Like they "couldn't" use F-14s, build ships & subs, copy/improve the F-5, launch a satellite, hack & reverse engineer US stealth UAV, operate uranuim enrichment/nuclear plants, & make PG BMs. I'll take it with a grain of salt.

    When they did those things the hard way on their own there was no option to buy off the shelf...

    1 Iraqi pilot also crashed his F-16 on a training flight in Arizona- but there r dozens of pilots left to instruct the Iranians before local pilots r trained. It's a job not w/o risk, even in peacetime.

    By the time 20 Iraqis have flown to Iran and taken the time to train Iranian pilots to fly them those aircraft will need an overhaul and parts replaced. With no chance of an overhaul or spare parts they will be put in a hangar and left to rot while those pilots slowly forget what they learned and those Iraqi pilots go home.

    It is just a waste of time.

    it'll take a lot of oil & time with current prices to pay for those Su-30s.

    Oil contracts would be fine...

    then, those can be traded in for more Iraqi F-16s than the Su-30s.

    Iraqi F-16s are not for sale.

    Some Iranian F-4/5s &/ J-7s with support along with former Iraqi AF planes can also be traded in to sweeten the deal.

    Why the hell would they trade better planes for ancient crap planes?

    I admit it won't be easy to integrate them, but it may be worth it in the long run.

    It wont be worth it.... Hangar Queens have no value in an Air Force that needs to operate in the air.

    On the plus side, their MiG-29s use 2 engines while the F-16s only 1, even if their ranges r going to be equal with CFTs.

    No they are not... because Iraqi F-16s don't have CFTs and F-16s with no spare parts have no flight range.

    Their F-4/5/14s can work together with F-16s allowing more flexibility & new tactics.

    They need planes to replace those planes not operate with them... and why do you think F-16s would work well together with navy planes?

    Putting a powerful radar in the nose &/ EW pods, ARMs &/ AshMs will make it a decent EW/maritime strike plane.

    You could fit the death star to the back seat... if it is not flying it wont make any difference... and where would it get powerful radar and other equipment from?

    Their Su-24s can then take time off & last longer!

    Ideally they would want an upgrade or replacement for that too...

    less logistical maintenance burdens, as well as fuel consumption.

    If that were true are you not wondering why Venezuela and Iraq are such idiots?

    If the F-16 needs conformal external fuel tanks to match the flight range of a basic MiG-29 are you really sure it has better fuel consumption or perhaps it just carries more fuel?

    However you have, in my mind stated the obvious potential issue post October, that of fear, your response specifically refers to the EU fearing financial and other sanctions for businesses conducting business in Iran - the same can be applied to China and the Russia can it not?

    No, because the EU members are a bunch of pussies that do as they are told. Russia and China are not. Both are continuing to honour the contract... and have every reason to stay with that agreement which says after October 2020 that they can sell weapons to Iran.

    Fighter planes are defensive aircraft.

    there is you will agree, history of Russia bending the knee to such pressure, perhaps China too but I’m not across the specifics.

    In the past yes, but past mistakes will not be repeated and Russia knows the US is untrustworthy... Russia continuing to help Iran with civilian nuclear power programmes shows they don't always bow to US pressure, and this is the same.

    In fact this is a chance for Russia to give the US the finger for breaking what was a successful international agreement.

    Any legal framework goes out the window as soon as the American pricks decide it so. That’s the reality of the world in which we live.

    From the perspective of Russia one of a few things will happen... either the US will force the EU to claim that enrichment changes Iran has made in response to their not following through with promised investments because of threatened US sanctions against those companies is a breach and that because Iran breached the agreement then the sanctions wont be relaxed... to which Russia might say... OK you guys are breaking the deal and then punishing Iran with sanctions anyway so we are leaving the deal and will trade with Iran as we please, or the US will claim that because they are named in the agreement as a party that despite their withdrawing they are still party and they object to Iranian violations and therefore the sanctions must remain... to which Russia and China might as well leave because it has been rendered pointless by the duplicity of the Americans and slimy weak spined nature of the europeans... and Russia and China can then sell weapons to Iran... or perhaps for a change the Germans and French might grow a spine and say that Iran has met the requirements and they will ignore the US and while they wont increase investments for fear of US retaliation they will offer weapons to Iran.... yeah.... I know... unlikely because even if Iran promised to buy Typhoons and Rafales the US sanctions would block the deals... what use would Typhoon be without AMRAAM?

    Hmm, not sure it’ll play out like that and I think that you’re underestimating the screws that can be turned: fiscal, people and organisations. None of which would harm the US at all but make life very uncomfortable for those targeted.

    To be honest the only screws the US can turn on Russia have already been tightened to the limit... any further attempts will damage the head and make turning either way impossible... US sanctions and punitive actions have only pushed Russia away from the west and made her more independent and stronger...

    US oil companies have lost billions in potential arctic oil contracts...

    As I say, I’ll be delighted if wrong, ecstatic even. The thoughts of 400 modern aircraft in Iran along with better aaa systems will put the local bully boys back in their box. That’ll please me most.

    I agree... Iran is no angel and neither is Russia but both countries have had difficult periods in their existence and struggled under some serious pressure from powerful neighbours and enemies from further afield... both are demonised... yet the states that demonise them have done far worse and act in totally repugnant ways and I am judging them by their own morals and ethics here...


    You also state Iran build ships and subs etc. Just like their copies of F-5 which is a light fighter nothing more nothing less it not 4 or 5th gen and not heavy fighter either. Their copies of cobra heli has only produced a handful like its light fighters and their ships well ask yourself how many decent warships have they built in last 20yrs and then ask yourself how many decent subs have they built in 20yrs.

    Good point... and an even better question to ask is how many F-15s or F-18s or F-35s has Iran designed and built?

    I mean if making an F-16 is achievable why not aim higher and get a better plane?

    raq, Iran, & NK been bombed &/ sanctioned for many years & still survived.

    I suspect Iran wants to do more than just survive...

    Flight time from Iraq to Iran is very short; the US fighters won't be there in time to interdict them. In Iran, they'll be hidden in camouflage/shelters/caves deep inside its territory. Those F-16s r not that advanced to risk starting a war over them at the wrong time.

    They will make Iranian airfields fair game... in fact sending in cruise missiles would be a great opportunity to map Iranian air defences and any other planes they kill will be just a bonus because the stated goal is to destroy the stolen planes... I am sure they would love the opportunity... and it is not like a hostage situation where they need to worry if they might kill the hostages... it is a case of keeping newer American aircraft technology out of Iranian hands...

    history is full of surprises!

    It is and you should never say never but it is totally left field completely unlikely... I would say an Asteroid impact would be more likely...

    the F-16 is medium, not a heavy fighter. As mentioned, they may get enough of them w/o having to build their own copy/derivative.

    Setting up their own factories to build a plane they have no planes or specs for would take a thousand times more effort than paying Russia or China to set up a factory for them.



    well, other agricultural produce may be added; what else besides natural gas can they sell in huge amounts? Salt form the dry lakes?
    They could give concessions to build a waterway between the Gulf & the Caspian Sea- geography is their biggest strategic asset, being even better situated than Turkey. Or they could build huge solar power plants in their deserts & sell electricity to their neighbors.

    Iran could build a high speed rail line from the Caspian Sea to the Persian Gulf and give the Russian Navy access to a port at each end of the rail line with the proviso that Iranians can use the rail line as well to open up trade...

    A warm water port for Russian ships which means crews and provisions could be sent via boat and then train to a port that gives the Russian Navy access to the Indian ocean and the coast off africa that bypasses the suez canal....

    They might get the production licence to the MiG-35 and its engines as well...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 30, 2020 8:07 pm

    You are making no sense... if Iraq can't maintain them... and they can't... then how is Iran supposed to help... they know less about the planes than the Iraqis who can't maintain them on their own either.
    Trained on what... Venezuela used the planes for a few years no and their planes are no longer flying...
    Iran maintained & operated US planes for decades & it won't need Einstein, Mikoyan & Tupolev to figure out F-16 specifics. If the Chinese could steal F-35 data, Iranians can do the same with the F-16s. There r plenty of former pilots, contractors  & maintainers that could be consulted. Iraq, Pakistan &/ Venezuela could also give/sell/let them use their F-16 flight simulators.

    The parts that need replacing are the same parts on all the aircraft so they will all be wearing out... Venezuelas aircraft will already be worn out and be of no help to anyone.
    each plane has its own history & won't be at the same level of wear & tear, so some parts will still be good.
    There are no US friendly users of the GPS signal inside Iran.
    it can't be turned off just in Iran- the whole region will be affected- I remember it was discussed regarding Iraq during the Desert Storm.
    So now they have to integrate foreign navigation systems into an American system they have never seen or used before, are these Iranians or Magicians?
    if all their relevant avionics r to be changed, compatible gear will be installed for those systems.
    Yes it would be a pain in the ass whether it is the entire plane or just individual parts...
    they've done it before with F-4/5/14s. No pain, no gain!

    Iran would be much stronger buying 40-50 Su-30s to replace their F-14s and Su-24s and about 150 MiG-29M2s to replace existing F-4s and MiG-29s...
    until that happens, they need to improvise & overcome. There's no guarantee they'll get everything they want/need in time, if at all.

    it is more a case of getting the damn things to fly on a regular basis... which I am doubting.
    they can use simulators for training & fly them only as often as necessary.

    They can threaten to sanction any country that trades with them... which would devastate their economies for decades to come.
    while hurting their own economy as well. Boeing lost $Ms on cancelled sales to Iran.

    They don't leave... they say they will but it is a lie.
    they left Vietnam & r dead tired of fighting this longest in American history, unwinnable war in Afghanistan.
    https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/27/us-ahead-of-schedule-on-afghanistan-pullout/

    Venezuela helping Iran with F-16 parts would justify military action...
    not unless there's a shooting war with Iran underway. They can just send parts to Iraq or Pakistan. Any sanctions can be circumvented. Russian/Chinese  AN-124s/IL-76s/Y-20s &/ ships can bring dismantled F-16s/flight simulators from Venezuela, Iraq & Pakistan to Iran.
    they didn't care because they were Iraqi aircraft that were going so any plane that ran away was a plane they didn't have to deal with in the air.
    they did care to try preventing Iran from getting them- even if those planes were never to return.
    When they did those things the hard way on their own there was no option to buy off the shelf...
    that option isn't 100% guaranteed. Even then, depending on Russia too much isn't the best option either.

    By the time 20 Iraqis have flown to Iran and taken the time to train Iranian pilots to fly them those aircraft will need an overhaul and parts replaced.
    not if flight simulators r used.

    Iraqi F-16s are not for sale.
    true, not yet, but may be in the future. They can also be bartered for something else, like Saddam era former Iraqi planes.
    Why the hell would they trade better planes for ancient crap planes?
    those future Hangar Queens can be restored to flight status & be more valuable to Iran; the former Iraqi planes r still useful to the new IAF.

    because Iraqi F-16s don't have CFTs and F-16s with no spare parts have no flight range.
    Iran can make & fit CFTs on them, & use them sparingly so there's less wear & tear.

    They need planes to replace those planes not operate with them... and why do you think F-16s would work well together with navy planes?
    they won't be replaced all at once, & having dissimilar planes is good for air combat training. F-4/14s can be used as interdictors/ground attack/maritime strike & be escorted by smaller fighters.
    where would it get powerful radar and other equipment from?
    the same places the Su-30s, MiG-29/35s &/ J-10s would come from.

    If the F-16 needs conformal external fuel tanks to match the flight range of a basic MiG-29 are you really sure it has better fuel consumption or perhaps it just carries more fuel?
    can a basic MiG-29 carry as much weight in weapons?
    Hardpoints: 7 × hardpoints (6 × underwing, 1 × fuselage) with a capacity of up to 4,000 kg (8,800 lb) of stores,..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Specifications_(MiG-29)

    Hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores,..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)

    Even if Iranian F-16 won't need big warload, extra droptanks/CFTs could be carried.

    Fighter planes are defensive aircraft.
    not unless they r basic MiG-25/31s which Iran isn't interested in; all others r of dual use.  

    Good point... and an even better question to ask is how many F-15s or F-18s or F-35s has Iran designed and built? I mean if making an F-16 is achievable why not aim higher and get a better plane?
    they r not the USA & for the 3rd World country their record isn't bad compared to most others. With what they had, the American backed Iraqi invasion was stopped & it eventually led to 9/11/01 attacks, Saddam at the end of a rope & the US still stuck in Afghanistan & Syria.  
    I suspect Iran wants to do more than just survive...
    the F-16s will help them in that. if Iran stands its ground, it isn't going to be thrown under a bus & to the wolves by Russia & China.

    They will make Iranian airfields fair game... in fact sending in cruise missiles would be a great opportunity to map Iranian air defences and any other planes they kill will be just a bonus because the stated goal is to destroy the stolen planes...
    by then they'll have Pantzirs &/ other CM defences.
    By ur own logic, if they r worth to be bombed, then they r worth having & using. OTH, when was the last time the US tried to bomb their F-4/5/14s on the ground?

    A warm water port for Russian ships which means crews and provisions could be sent via boat and then train to a port that gives the Russian Navy access to the Indian ocean and the coast off africa that bypasses the suez canal....
    or they can $ave by sending big ekranoplans they'll build anyway from the Caspian, across Iran & back. The waterway will be built eventually, giving the Caspian Flotilla direct access to the Gulf & the Arabian Sea.

    They might get the production licence to the MiG-35 and its engines as well...
    for that to happen, they'll need to sell them many MiG-35s & engines 1st. What if Iranians start to export them like China did with older MiGs & their knock offs? Easier to just sell them fighters & their support at a discount in exchange for basing rights &/ other investment/trade privileges.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 7:51 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 2 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 30, 2020 9:58 pm

    @Tsavo lion Illusions of grandeur why stop at F-16. Why not Israel give them F-35 and Grand Moff Tarkin give them the death star. That is how ludicrous your idea and thinking is.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 30, 2020 10:54 pm

    That's out of proportion. After all, they maintained, modified, upgraded & used US made fighters, incl. in combat, for decades.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNe30G4Yk8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfYBX46b56Y

    If a Pakistani scientist could help Iran with setting up centifigues for making U-235, their aviation experts/operators together with Iraqis, Venezuelans, Russian & Chinese could help with standing up 2nd hand F-16 squadron. Those planes r not untouchable & have substantial growth potential:
    Called the F-21, the remodeled planes incorporate several specific-to-India technologies, according to Lockheed developers. Some of these technologies include an advanced, Northrop built APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array, Electronic Warfare systems and Triple Missile Launcher Adapters “allowing the F-21 to carry 40-percent more air-to-air weapons than previous F-16 designs.”
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/india-may-get-supercharged-f-16-lockheed-martin-158831

    https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/f16.html





    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun May 31, 2020 7:54 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun May 31, 2020 10:49 am

    Keeping in mind that I still do not see the sense for Iran of operating a new (new for them, but actually not new at all) model of fighter aircraft where they do not have any experience, and no legitimate way to access to spares and technical assistance from the manufacturer...(and this is an issue, if you see the difference between country operating soviet aircrafts that are overhauled and receive support from Russia, and countries that have their fleet repaired and refurbished by the Ukraine.....)

    I have a question for you: why should Russians and Chineses help Iran with operating and maintaing second hand export versions of F16?

    What do they get if they help iran with those?
    And if they don't want to give them productions rights for mig29,  they could build for them su30 and mig29 and together with china help them producing a local version of the JF17 (chinese upgrade and modernization of the J7, itself the chinese clone of the Mig21).

    The JF17 is not on par with a mig29M or with a modern F16, but it is above the current capabilities of IRAN and help them work on a more capable aircraft  than their own f5 modernisation.
    GarryB
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 2 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2020 12:09 pm

    Iran maintained & operated US planes for decades & it won't need Einstein, Mikoyan & Tupolev to figure out F-16 specifics. If the Chinese could steal F-35 data, Iranians can do the same with the F-16s. There r plenty of former pilots, contractors  & maintainers that could be consulted. Iraq &/ Ven. could also let give/sell/let them use their F-16 flight simulators.

    Why would they choose to... the F-16 is just an ordinary aircraft and any model they might get a hold of will be an ancient crappy version of it.

    Developing upgrades for it... like the US does assumes Iran is as competent at fighter planes as the US is... which is clearly not true or by now they would be operating at least F-15s and F-18s and they are not.

    Early model F-16s are rubbish and no better than what they already have.

    Buying MiG-29s means they can be brand new MiG-29M2s equal to some of the best model F-16s... it will be handed over to them when they pay for it.

    Working out how to get F-4s and F-5s and F-14s to keep flying was incredibly expensive and incredibly time consuming and took enormous effort... they would need to be total morons to try to get access to early model F-16s so they can keep slaving away and wasting enormous amounts of resources on what is a mediocre plane by todays standards.

    each plane has its own history & won't be at the same level of wear & tear, so some parts will still be good.

    Venezuela used them till they couldn't use them any more... they have no flying examples AFAIK.

    it can't be turned off just in Iran- the whole region will be affected- I remember it was discussed regarding Iraq during the Desert Storm.

    They can turn any parts of it off that they like... they just turned off the civilian signal over Georgia during the 2008 invasion of South Ossetia because they knew the South Ossetians and Russian forces used civilian receivers, while the Georgian forces got military recievers from fighting in the ME for the US.

    I doubt there were any civilian GPS receivers in Iraq during Desert Storm... GPS wasn't really a thing back then... and the civilian signal could be independently switched off if they wanted to.

    if all their relevant avionics r to be changed, compatible gear will be installed for those systems.

    Yeah... the existing Avionics systems the Iranians had access to are for F-4s and F-14s are you suggesting they upgrade an F-16 with the avionics of aircraft from a previous generation?

    they've done it before with F-4/5/14s. No pain, no gain!

    THEY DID IT BECAUSE THEY HAD NO CHOICE.

    Given the choice of buying Russian or Chinese planes they would be fucken stupid to want to copy an American plane they never had access to before and don't even know if they would like it or not.

    until that happens, they need to improvise & overcome. There's no guarantee they'll get everything they want/need in time, if at all.

    They have planes... planes that took a very long time to master. This F-16 delusion of yours is not a simple nor a quick fix... it is the opposite... it is not an option.

    they can use simulators for training & fly them only as often as necessary.

    Why don't they use computer simulators and train on F-22s instead it is a much better plane...

    while hurting their own economy as well. Boeing lost $Ms on cancelled sales to Iran.

    That does not stop them.

    they left Vietnam & r dead tired of fighting the unwinnable war in Afghanistan.

    They didn't get a choice... they got kicked out of Vietnam... and Afghanistan is not an example of them leaving until they leave... they have been there since the 1960s...

    not unless there's a shooting war with Iran underway.

    the US wants an excuse to attack Venezuela... providing Iran with American military secrets would be a good excuse.

    They can just send parts to Iraq or Pakistan.

    And US agents in both locations would seize the parts immediately.

    Any sanctions can be circumvented.

    Of course they can.... that is why Cuba and North Korea are living the high life...

    Russian An-124s/IL-76s &/ ships can bring dismantled F-16s/flight simulators anywhere in the World.

    Russia is not Irans buddy... Russia will sell fighters to Iran but why would they help Iran get hold of parts for and American plane for them to use?

    they did care to try preventing Iran from getting them- even if those planes were never to return.

    At the time Saddam was the problem... not Iran.

    that option isn't 100% guaranteed. Even then, depending on Russia too much isn't the best option either.

    The only option 100% guaranteed is the F-16 option... guaranteed to fail.

    Russia or China are much better options than France or the US.

    not if flight simulators r used.

    They don't have any F-16 flight simulators... why not use F-22 flight simulators instead and be really powerful paper tigers.

    true, not yet. They can also be bartered for something else, like Saddam era former Iraqi planes.

    Russia sells much better models today.

    those future Hangar Queens can be restored to flight status & be more valuable to Iran;

    They have never flown F-16s before their value to Iran is zero.

    the former Iraqi planes r still useful to the new IAF.

    Iran stated the Iraqi planes flown to their country were accepted as compensation for the Iraqi invasion of Iran in the 1980s... they are not getting anything back... there is nothing to trade.

    Iran can make & fit CFTs on them, & use them sparingly so there's less wear & tear.

    If they could do that they could do the same to their F-4s and F-14s so why would they need F-16s?

    they won't be replaced all at once, & having dissimilar planes is good for air combat training. F-4/14s can be used as interdictors/ground attack/maritime strike & be escorted by smaller fighters.

    F-16s have been declared gay in Iran and their use has been banned.

    in the same places Su-30s, MiG-29/35s &/ J-10s would've come from.

    The companies who supply them for Su-30s and MiGs wont supply them to Iran to fit to F-16s that don't fly. A radar for an Su-30 is too big to fit into an F-16 and so are the radars for the MiG-29 family.

    can a basic MiG-29 carry as much weight in weapons?
    Hardpoints: 7 × hardpoints (6 × underwing, 1 × fuselage) with a capacity of up to 4,000 kg (8,800 lb) of stores,..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Specifications_(MiG-29)

    Hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores,..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Specifications_(F-16C_Block_50/52)

    Hahahaha... the F-16 has been widely used in combat... please post a single photo showing an F-16 carrying anything like 7.7 tons of weapons.

    And by the way thanks for proving my point... both aircraft would carry similar weights in terms of weapon loads in real combat... the difference is that the short legged F-16 would also be carrying external fuel tanks and need inflight refuelling...

    not unless they r MiG-25/31s
    which Iran isn't going to get; all others r of dual use.

    Fighter aircraft are considered defensive aircraft. Deep strike aircraft are not defensive but these are not deep strike aircraft.

    the F-16s will help them in that. if Iran stands its ground, it isn't going to be thrown under a bus & to the wolves by Russia & China.

    Hahahahaha... trying to reverse engineer a plane they don't have and have never flown is throwing themselves under a bus.

    You obviously hate the Iranians and wish them ill if you are suggesting such a path for them.

    By ur own logic, if they r worth to be bombed, then they r worth having. OTH, when was the last time the US tried to bomb their F-4/5/14s on the ground?

    By my own logic the US would suggest Iran tries to reverse engineer an F-16 and get neighbouring air forces to fly examples in for them to examine because that would be harder to engineer than building nuclear weapons and will keep Iran busy for the next ten years chasing their tail trying to emulate an aircraft that is already being replaced in western air forces because it is obsolete.

    Not only would Iran be shooting itself in the foot doing something this stupid, America can then bomb any airfield they claim they spot stolen F-16s at... with a bit of Photoshop that means every Iranian military airfield.... they are not attacking Iranian airfields because the F-16 would be such a dangerous opponent... they would be attacking them because they have created an excuse to do so... some Saudi Arabian and Pakistani Nationals hijack planes in the US and use them as weapons... so the US looks at their list of countries they want to bomb and invade and pick the top two off the list... Iraq and Afghanistan... two countries that had nothing to do with 11/9... and when they find Osama Bin Laden... he is in Pakistan... I am sure America was as surprised as everyone else.... NOT.

    or they can $ave by sending big ekranoplans they'll build anyway from the Caspian, across Iran & back. The waterway will be built, giving the Caspian Flotilla direct access to the Gulf & Arabian Sea.

    A rail line would benefit Iranian internal trade... a water way... not so much... too many mountains...

    for that to happen, they'll need to sell them many MiG-35s and engines 1st.

    If they pay half of what it would cost them to reverse engineer an F-16 they could just buy the production rights for both...

    What if Iranians start to export them like China did with older MiGs & their knock offs?

    China only exports very old model MiGs and the developments of those planes are Chinese planes anyway.

    Easier to just sell them fighters & their support at a discount in exchange for basing rights &/ other investment/trade privileges.

    Iran might not trust Russia with anything less than local production to prevent production being blocked.

    That's out of proportion. After all, they maintained, modified, upgraded & used US made fighters, incl. in combat, for decades.

    They certainly did, but they maintained and modified and upgraded and used US made fighters they had used before and already had large numbers of... in all the years since the US left Iran, Iran has not maintained, modified, upgraded, or used an F-16 or F-18 or F-15 or F-22 and are not likely to ever do so.

    Those planes r not untouchable & have substantial growth potentia

    But surely an F-35 has even more growth potential and would only require a little extra work to develop and build... I mean if they can already maintain, modify, upgrade, and use US aircraft...


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 2 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 31, 2020 12:58 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Keeping in mind that I still do not see the sense for Iran of operating a new (new for them, but actually not new at all) model of fighter aircraft where they do not have any experience, and no legitimate way to access to spares and technical assistance from the manufacturer...(and this is an issue, if you see the difference between country operating soviet aircrafts that are overhauled and receive support from Russia, and countries that have their fleet repaired and refurbished by the Ukraine.....)

    I have a question for you: why should Russians and Chineses help Iran with operating and maintaing second hand export versions of F16?

    What do they get if they help iran with those?
    And if they don't want to give them productions rights for mig29,  they could build for them su30 and mig29 and together with china help them producing a local version of the JF17 (chinese upgrade and modernization of the J7, itself the chinese clone of the Mig21).

    The JF17 is not on par with a mig29M or with a modern F16, but it is above the current capabilities of IRAN and help them work on a more capable aircraft  than their own f5 modernisation.

    Su-30, mig-29m is pretty much all they need. Upgrade their su-25 and su-24. They could keep their upgraded su-22 and upgrade their J-7. Keep their homegrown F-5 copies. And get rid of everything else. J-17 could be an option to replace a couple of squadrons of F-5. But not asan option of mig-29m. But to be honest even if they just went with Su-30 and mig-29m it be enough. Realistic set up could be the following.
    Su-30 replace F-4, F-14, F1.
    Mig-29m replace mig-29, F-5.
    Su-25 upgraded to SM3
    Su-24 upgraded to M2 with gefest svp-24
    J-7 upgraded.
    Kowsar
    HESA Saeqeh
    HESA Azarakhsh
    Su-22 ( Iranian upgrade)

    Everything else scrap, sell spares etc.
    Eventually in 6-10yrs time they could replace su-24, su-22, HESA Azarakhsh with su-34.
    J-7, HESA saeqeh, kowsar, over time eventually replaced with mig-29m.
    So the first 5-6yrs focus on replacing F1, F-14,F4, F-5, mig-29 and set up production and parts. Upgrades on the others I mentioned will suffice their needs in til completion of replacement of what I mentioned first.

    J-17 isn't bad but trying to streamline their air force over time is key for Iran. At the end of 2030 they would only be operating su-30, mig-29m, su-34, su-25. Su-30 & Su-34 share pretty much the same parts. So in effect only 3 aircraft. And su-25 they only have 6. Bit if they insisted on having a less capable fighter than mig-29m for part replacement of F-5 then J-17 would be good choice but me personally I'd just stick with mig-29m to keep parts etc streamline and less complicated in terms of training. Iran could still produce their own trainer even if it were based on F-5 just as long as avionics training systems mimic Russian systems
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sun May 31, 2020 1:45 pm

    @Tsavolion

    Agree that Iran should get F16. A couple of them. To study them. Their Radar and comms. So they can Jam them. And also fly against them in practice. For training as aggressor. To see flight charectristics. How many Iranian planes needed to shoot down. Iraq pilot will get good money to fly to Iran with modern F16 ! Or Other pilot? Other than that, can use in war against yank. With giving yank talk on Radio and giving electronic signal out. Very confusing for yank. Other than this I agree with GarryB. No use at all.

    @ GarryB

    About Iranian airfield and Radar being hit by yank. I agree. But also yank and allies very vulnerable to Iranian attack. Even more so. Since most probably ship based. So both sides will probably face similar situations. Little Radar. Destroyed airfield. So parity exists, say between F18 and Mig29. Then safe assumption of 30 missions. Or need for stockpile of 30 days spares. But you are right about local manufacture of spares. Since after planes supplied. The parts supply could dry up, for political reasons. Must have local production of perishables. Unless war started already. And planes and parts supplied together.

    @ Taddie2

    Iran needs fighters for two cases. First local foe or neighbour. Second for American "super power" . For neighbour, it is local. Iran can use missiles or army or navy to inflict damage. No need for parity with them. For super power, it needs enough to strike a psychological blow. Since no chance of parity, say with yank. If Iran downs fifty F18, in the first week of fight. Then that is the best it can and need to hope for. If fighting continues, and Yanks bring in all their nine carriers into the fight. Iran can never deter by fighters, however numerous. In this case it needs nukes. Pure and simple. As far as this is concerned, then fifty modern Russian jets are sufficient. For mainly WVR fighting. Since Iran needs no BVR capability. Also the Radar and sensitive electronics on these need to be tweeked by Iranians. To make them secure. Since we do not know, who else knows about them. Like S300. Export version. Secrets are out. But for these small number, as GarryB said, need parts manufacture in Iran.

    The future. Twenty or thirty years..... Who knows...... Iran will build own fighters..... Or best rely on nukes. Nuke all the enemy!


    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
    d_taddei2
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    Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models. - Page 2 Empty Re: Irans prospects to operate/copy the F-16 as a replacement of older US models.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 31, 2020 2:04 pm

    nomadski wrote:@Tsavolion

    Agree that Iran should get F16. A couple of them. To study them. Their Radar and comms. So they can Jam them. And also fly against them in practice. For training as aggressor. To see flight charectristics. How many Iranian planes needed to shoot down. Iraq pilot will get good money to fly to Iran with modern F16 ! Or Other pilot? Other than that, can use in war against yank. With giving yank talk on Radio and giving electronic signal out. Very confusing for yank. Other than this I agree with GarryB. No use at all.

    @ GarryB

    About Iranian airfield and Radar being hit by yank. I agree. But also yank and allies very vulnerable to Iranian attack. Even more so. Since most probably ship based. So both sides will probably face similar situations. Little Radar. Destroyed airfield. So parity exists, say between F18 and Mig29. Then safe assumption of 30 missions. Or need for stockpile of 30 days spares. But you are right about local manufacture of spares. Since after planes supplied. The parts supply could dry up, for political reasons. Must have local production of perishables. Unless war started already. And planes and parts supplied together.

    @ Taddie2

    Iran needs fighters for two cases. First local foe or neighbour. Second for super power. For neighbour, it is local. Iran can use missiles or army or navy to inflict damage. No need for parity with them. For super power, it needs enough to strike a psychological blow. Since no chance of parity, say with yank. If Iran downs fifty F18, in the first week of fight. Then that is the best it can and need to hope for. If fighting continues, and Yanks bring in all their nine carriers into the fight. Iran can never deter by fighters, however numerous. In this case it needs nukes. Pure and simple. As far as this is concerned, then fifty modern Russian jets are sufficient. For mainly WVR fighting. Since Iran needs no BVR capability. Also the Radar and sensitive electronics on these need to be tweeked by Iranians. To make them secure. Since we do not know, who else knows about them. Like S300. Export version. Secrets are out. But for these small number, as GarryB said, need parts manufacture in Iran.

    The future. Twenty or thirty years..... Who knows...... Iran will build own fighters..... Or best rely on nukes. Nuke all the enemy!

    Of course they need fighters I never said they didn't lol.  Of course we are talking just aircraft not AD systems which obviously Iran need a better note coordinated network.  And as I said and garryb production rights for Su-30, mig-29m is paramount hence the reason I suggested just having these along with su-25, and later su-34 (shares same parts as su-30) and not having j-17. Su-25 parts will be few and Belarus could easily supply under the radar. But the rest Iran can then produce and even as u say sanctions etc come back or blockade then they can still keep a decent air force.

    As for AD systems. Russia could sell a a couple of batteries of S400 Iran could use to protect the most important areas. Sell production rights for S-300VM. Sell Iran more Pantsir and rights and equipment to produce missiles, 30mm ammo and barrels, and extend that so they can produce the 30mm barrel for use in IFV etc. Sell an initial couple of batteries of Buk-M3 then production rights Iran can mount it on whatever it wants and produces. Sell SOSNA R just the system Iran can mount it on boragh chassis selling rights to missile. Sell 500 Verba with rights to produce this would allow Iran to have it in Amy configuration dhigit, Stelets etc and of course Iran can mount any of these systems on its ships as well. These systems would be a massive boost to Iran's AD of course radars IADS can be sold and certain homegrown designs can be incorporated, and rest of the older or less capable systems phased out couple this with the new aircraft and AAM and Israel and USA might think twice about provocations.

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