Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Talking bollocks thread #3

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:39 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed

    I am a socialist but I'm also a Russian patriot and I see our mad Tsar as steering the country towards collapse.
    So why not reinstitute socialism as part of the economy and save the country at the same time? Cool

    Putin should do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Apart from defending the people of the Donbass republics. He has already proven his inadequacy and Russian rule is not enticing for anyone. Why should it be. The same oligarchs.

    What needs to happen now, in theory, is the re-establishment of Soviets by the people in all major Russian cities and federal subjects. Linking up with socialists in other ex-Soviet states to get them to attempt the same. With any luck, the people of the Ukraine, particularly east Ukraine will catch the example. A show of people power, and then the dialogue can begin, both internal, and with the federal, regional and other ex-Soviet elites.

    That was some Tolkien level of fantasy there my guy

    Your "mad Tzar" took a corpse of a communist hellhole and converted it into a viable nation

    If a country needs socialism in order to exist then that country shouldn't​ exist

    As for other Ex-Soviet countries I would like to point out once again that population of those countries sees Russians as subhumans that need to be exterminated and that best and only course of action is to be ready to exterminate them first (and to not pussy out as always once the moment comes)



    miketheterrible likes this post

    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2873
    Points : 3028
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:11 am

    @Flaming Python

    A Marxist-Leninist-Trockyist cannot be a Russian Patriot by definition...it's mutually exclusive

    If Putin is so bad and going mad as you say, why aren't you communists overthrowing him and re-establishing the Soviet/Trockyist utopia ?

    miketheterrible likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:42 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    A Marxist-Leninist-Trockyist cannot be a Russian Patriot by definition...it's mutually exclusive

    If Putin is so bad and going mad as you say, why aren't you communists overthrowing him and re-establishing the Soviet/Trockyist utopia ?

    A patriot is simply one who loves his country and his people, and nationalism is not necessary to achieve it. I believe in the prosperity of my own country through socialism and internationalism.
    As for labels, I don't ascribe myself one but I am closest to Marxism, while also taking a lot from Marxist-Leninism and a good deal from Trotsky's writings. Some of the Stalinist principles cannot be discarded either.

    I get your point, but I honestly don't see such a big contradiction here. If humanity ever gets to the theoretical stage of full-on communism, then states will no longer be necessary - we can give ours up too. But that may be hundreds of years away, and particular to a mindset as far removed from our own as our ancestors in hunter-gatherer tribes were to that of today's nation states. So I don't worry about it too much. Whatever the surroundings, the society, the material conditions - that is how the consciousness of a human being will operate. We are in the era of nation states, and the stage of socialism requires worker's states as much as the era of capitalism requires nation states. We can't know any different.

    For now states are a fact, Russia is a fact, and a progressive social-economic system can demonstrate to the rest of the world what is possible.
    This is the strategy, of what I think should be the 5th workers international. If the 1st international was that of naive competition by workers against massive industrial forces (Paris Commune), the 2nd internationale was that of world revolution (Lenin), the 3rd international was that of socialist imperialism (Stalinism and Maoism), the 4th Trotsky one was that of permanent revolution (no direct offspring but indirectly influenced Maoism, the character of Cuban and Vietnamese socialism and many other attempts in ex-colonial nations and South America).
    The 5th internationale should rather be about setting an example via a state where the proletariat have at least partial control of the economy.

    In my mind what is exclusive is nationalism and socialism. A nationalist is a patriot who advocates a specific form of social organization and system of foreign relations, whether ethnocratic or civil based nationalism, but either way based on the premise of superiority of one's state economic interests at the expense of those of others. So necessarily a hierarchy.
    And you can't organize proletarian rule under such a system as then this state will quickly turn internationalist. It's relations with other countries in this case will necessarily be guided by the economic needs of the state's workers intertwining and expanding economic relations with the workers of other countries, on the basis of parity.
    So a nationalist state is necessarily capitalist and must organize an internal social hierarchy too of proletariat at the bottom and borgouise at the top.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 am

    PapaDragon wrote:That was some Tolkien level of fantasy there my guy

    Your "mad Tzar" took a corpse of a communist hellhole and converted it into a viable nation

    If a country needs socialism in order to exist then that country shouldn't​ exist

    As for other Ex-Soviet countries I would like to point out once again that population of those countries sees Russians as subhumans that need to be exterminated and that best and only course of action is to be ready to exterminate them first (and to not pussy out as always once the moment comes)

    Says the Serb unshaven

    That my friend, is why Balkan peoples can't have nice things. You guys make the Caucasus look positively civilized in comparison.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4559
    Points : 4537
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:19 am

    Papa is right. Just look at our "brothers" the Ukrainians. They want you dead. Communists cries the loudest but Russia is on the right path and it's obvious now. Communism died on its own due to it being shit. Had it's good moments but that's all.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:43 am

    flamming_python wrote:...You guys make the Caucasus look positively civilized in comparison.

    It's safe to say that everyone including folks from Caucasus would greatly disagree

    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2360
    Points : 2352
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Regular on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:13 pm

    It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4559
    Points : 4537
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:17 pm

    Regular wrote:It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    Stagnation in what? China holds the status quo and it works. Russia can do the same.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:24 pm

    Regular wrote:I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    USA was maintaining status quo for decades and they didn't stagnate, same goes for EU

    They both started stagnating once they decided to abandon status quo

    miketheterrible likes this post

    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2360
    Points : 2352
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Regular on Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:46 pm

    China - no, they are developing fast even if they make mistakes left and right, but atleast they are moving forward. They are slowing down, but not stopping. But Us does stagnate and they even started to regress.

    But I am talking about political stagnation in Russia. Times are moving and Russia needs new blood. Probably FP can tell you better than me, but there is no one representing his political spectrum in Russian government. There are few dying old communists used for a show. What socialist ideas can be proposed by these half dead people? Government mandated funerals would be only thing relevant for them. And not just socialists, there are plenty of people who are disfranchised and simple have no representation.

    How whole Russian political system is set up now- you either choose Putin or you choose liberal clowns. And the more retarded opposition is the better.

    Yous are telling me that through whole Russia there were no equal candidates to Putin?
    And how come Russian political parties are so retarded and have so many people covered in dirt?
    How are you supposed to get rid of corruption when they all play in the same team?

    I am biaded, but it seems that big majority of Russian politicians are no different than others, they are fucking pigs who have even less to answer than before. Don't need to go far from Moscow. How many of them have children are studying and living abroad? Why is this still a thing? Why punishment for corruption is so low than common thieves are punished more than that.



    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:16 pm

    Regular wrote:...Probably FP can tell you better than me, but there is no one representing his political spectrum in Russian government. There are few dying old communists used for a show. What socialist ideas can be proposed by these half dead people?

    That political spectrum has been overrepresented for almost a century and 95% of things it did was absolute fuckup with a healthy serving of genocide against Russian population in favor of minorities especially in other Soviet states

    They are overrepresented even now, realistically communism shouldn't even exist as a concept, it's been completely and fully discredited

    Half dead people for fully dead ideas, they are still doing better than expected but hopefully it will decompose fully soon enough



    Regular wrote:...Yous are telling me that through whole Russia there were no equal candidates to Putin?

    Yes there are but not among Communists

    Other candidates will come around eventually



    Regular wrote:...And how come Russian political parties are so retarded and have so many people covered in dirt?

    This isn't Russian issue, it happens all over the world

    Same thing here in Serbia, there is no opposition of any relevance because they are so corrupt and discredited that nobody would ever vote for them anymore

    Those who are not have pretty much the same gameplan as current government






    miketheterrible likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:41 pm

    Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There is socialism that needs to be rebuilt What a Face

    Regular wrote:It's funny to hear FP complain about Putin and then listen exact reversal from my friends who complain that he is not fulfilling nationalist promises and that Putin is part of globalist elite.

    I personally see Putin playing both left and right. His endgame is clear. To consolidate the power structure and maintain status quo. Sounds like stagnation incomming.

    How can Putin possibly be part of the globalist elite if that same globalist elite is the one that's trying to topple him, overthrow and arm regimes against him, spread propaganda against him and so on?

    Doesn't make any sense.

    He's part of the Russian national borgouise and he's in opposition to the borgouise internationale. As is Trump, a fellow nationalist borgouise (American), and he's also the target of an operation to topple him.

    As for Putin, could be that you're right. He may just be trying to survive. But his policy of education reform that has led to increasing russification, his statements about Lenin laying a bomb under the foundation of Russia by recognizing the states and autonomous rights of other peoples, his ties with Kadyrov who is in favour of abolishing republics and making all regions answer to the centre, the current talk of optimizing Russian development by battling with regional elites to centralize all control over autonomies, etc... do suggest to me otherwise.

    Well can't say for sure. He's afraid of leaving power, we know that much. If he had done it long ago it wouldn't have been an issue, but the dirt has been building up. It's true that his ratings are tanking and he needs to say and do anything at this point to keep them up. And I'm not sure his farce of a referendum has helped; even if he's fooled some ordinary people he's completely alienated anyone with a head on their shoulders. He's becoming quite a toxic individual for those in the elite circles to associate themselves with, I'd imagine. I don't exclude the possibility of a palace coup.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:39 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math



    flamming_python wrote:There is socialism that needs to be rebuilt What a Face

    And they say commies don't have a sense of humor lol1

    Still at least North Korea is holding down the fort

    I don't think there are enough Russians left alive to have another go at socialism plus during last 20 years Russians grew accustomed to having more than one meal per day so some other country will have to volunteer to be patsy this time


    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Sorry PD I'm afraid your fantasies of a pan-Orthodox genocidal union will have to wait. Wait for at least quite a while, actually.

    There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?

    Suddenly 'our team' (Britain, France, USA) became the enemy team, while our old enemy team were defeated anyway, and had short lived revolutions themselves (Germany, Hungary)

    Things don't go to plan, when you start bloodletting over political differences and 'teams'. Especially when you can see that people on the other teams are in the same position. One starts getting their own ideas in regards to who is telling him what enemies to kill and for what benefit of their own.

    I don't think there are enough Russians left alive to have another go at socialism plus during last 20 years Russians grew accustomed to having more than one meal per day so some other country will have to volunteer to be patsy this time

    I don't think there are enough Russians to go for a full-scale revolution either. Nor is this desirable as a revolution is a destructive process. I've already said all this.
    The strategy must be different.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:...There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?...

    Of course, everyone does

    You guys folded like lawn chairs couple of months before victory, betrayed your allies, allowed enemy operative to take control of the country, gave away your lands for free and started exterminating your own people in the service of tatar Red Messiah

    It was hilarious for all those that were lucky enough to not be there, pure comedy gold lol1
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:...There's nothing pan-Orthodox there

    There is your team and enemy team

    You play for your team and you kill other team, that includes Orthodox teams as well

    Remember Georgians and the Ukrainians? Both Orthodox and both enemy teams, do the math

    Remember what happened in WW1?...

    Of course, everyone does

    You guys folded like lawn chairs couple of months before victory, betrayed your allies, allowed enemy operative to take control of the country, gave away your lands for free and started exterminating your own people in the service of tatar Red Messiah

    It was hilarious for all those that were lucky enough to not be there, pure comedy gold lol1

    We had the last laugh though

    By the 30s we had 15% GDP growth a year, masses of new industries including defense industries capable of producing all our own weapons, mass literacy campaigns, design bureaus and so on.
    By the start of the war we had well over 20,000 tanks. Even if most of them were obsolete, and we were only left with 10% of our initial pool by the end of 1941; they still did their job and inflicted enough casualties on the enemy, threw it off schedule.

    Imagine the Tsar's crappy army going up against Nazi Germany with its British battleships and French artillery, officer-aristocrats and chronic shortage of everything including even rifles for its men.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:We had the last laugh though

    You killed half of your own population, it was definitely last laugh for quite a few folks, RIP



    flamming_python wrote:By the 30s we had 15% GDP growth a year

    30% growth after dropping to zero, congrats

    How was food back then? Cabbage doesn't count Razz



    flamming_python wrote:...masses of new industries including defense industries capable of producing all our own weapons

    Google Land Lease



    flamming_python wrote:By the start of the war we had well over 20,000 tanks

    And lost every single one



    flamming_python wrote:Even if most of them were obsolete

    That they were, that they definitely were



    flamming_python wrote:and we were only left with 10% of our initial pool by the end of 1941

    Rare for commies​ to admit their own inevitable fuckups, kudos on that



    flamming_python wrote:they still did their job and inflicted enough casualties on the enemy, threw it off schedule

    You sure drowned them in your own dead



    flamming_python wrote:Imagine the Tsar's crappy army

    Tsar's crappy army never allowed Germans to stroll up to the suburbs of Moscow



    flamming_python wrote:going up against Nazi Germany

    There wouldn't have been Nazi Germany had commies not threw in the towel, Russian border would have been going through Berlin

    It's questionable if there would have been Germany period



    flamming_python wrote:...with its British battleships and French artillery, officer-aristocrats and chronic shortage of everything including even rifles for its men.

    Google Lend Lease

    As for officers may I present the tactical/strategic masterpiece known as Winter War?

    Or simply first half or WW2? lol1

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4559
    Points : 4537
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:31 pm

    I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution. I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all. But that could have been also provided without the communists. Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement. But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade. So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII. And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution.  I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all.  But that could have been also provided without the communists.  Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement.  But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade.  So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII.  And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

    Thanks to communism Russia was/is constantly playing catch-up instead of starting off with massive advantage

    WW2 happened because Germans were given an open playing field, this would not have happened had commies not surrendered WW1



    Anyway this whole conversation has lasted way longer than needed and I completely forgot that this is Talking Bollocks tread



    Arguing perspective of communist/socialist death-cult in potential human future is about as useful in this day and age as discussing merits of hereditary feudalism

    Both are dead ideologies

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3992
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:32 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I am not gonna deny that Soviets faced a huge industrial revolution.  I also admit they brought good concepts like education for all and medical for all.  But that could have been also provided without the communists.  Land Lease was actually not really that huge of a thing for Russia and of course the development of T-34 and Il-2 for examples were huge deciding factors for Soviets advancement.  But with that all said, because of the bolshevik revolution caused such a backlash in Russia that it did cost unnecessary lives lost and threw the country back a decade.  So Soviets were unwoefully unprepared during WWII.  And yes, growth was great only because they started from the very bottom thanks to the revolution.

    Thanks to communism Russia was/is constantly playing catch-up instead of starting off with massive advantage

    WW2 happened because Germans were given an open playing field, this would not have happened had commies not surrendered WW1



    Anyway this whole conversation has lasted way longer than needed and I completely forgot that this is Talking Bollocks tread



    Arguing perspective of communist/socialist death-cult in potential human future is about as useful in this day and age as discussing merits of hereditary feudalism

    Both are dead ideologies


    Because of course Russia was a breakthrough European country in the early 20th century; instead of being closer to India's or China's level of development than to Western Europe, the USA or Japan

    And because of course the Soviet Union did not achieve levels of power, expansion and social-economic development that the Tsar's traditionalist realm could never even think of, Cold War superpower, first man in space, breakthroughs in multiple sectors of industry and science, mass housing, medical system, education system that produced a huge amount of intelligencia, first to offer 8-hour working days, full gender equality, etc..

    Anyone who understands socialism understands that it's not an ideology. It's an anti-ideology. Because what socialism is, is an analysis.

    Open playing field? I don't even know what you're on about. But OK, whatever.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25272
    Points : 25818
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:42 am

    The problem is that western propaganda is very strong...

    You killed half of your own population, it was definitely last laugh for quite a few folks, RIP

    The Germans killed more than Stalin ever came close to... it is the attempt to equate Nazism with Communism that creates the need to distort the truth.

    The west has exterminated most of the native cultures on the planet but that is ignored.

    I am proud to say I am a socialist too... communism didn't work, but then with better management it might end up the best system of all.

    Capitalism isn't working either... voting for the most popular candidate has become a farce made even more so by the fact that the rich are bribing both political parties to get laws that help them maintain their monopolies and increase their profits, and pay their workers less until they can't pay them any less and have to move production to the third world

    Consumerism is bubble and burst bubble and burst, with most governments getting into debt, which means they are controlled by the countries who lend money... which of course leads to small countries betraying their own people and opening them up to exploitation by the rich... which previously meant the west.

    The problem for the west is that China has realised what the game is and is now playing too and Russia will do the same, but China and Russia don't have the history of being total bastards like the west has... the west had no competition so they were total censored most of the time... but now there is competition... competition from countries that are often offering a better product for a much better price and with no strings attached except the fact that the west will become hostile if you buy their products. All China and Russia and anyone else who wants to play needs to be able to do is replace the west.

    Iran was isolated by the west so China saw the opportunity to buy their oil products and likely sell all sorts of stuff, and make all sorts of deals... it will help Iran but also make money for China and secure resources for China at a rate they wouldn't get with any other customer. They aren't screwing Iran... they are actually helping them.

    The great white west PD thinks is so damn wonderful spends a lot of time destroying countries... usually because they are getting in the way of American companies making money.

    Very simply what I believe is that there needs to be a balance... certain things can't be left to "big business" to control and run... most of the time they really don't have the customers interests at heart, and just want to create a monopoly for themselves and once they got that they will screw the customers for every penny they can because there are no alternatives left.

    You might suggest that is where capitalism shines because when private companies are charging too much then it is an opportunity for another company to come in and offer a better deal... saving the consumers money and being a real hero.... the problem is that those big companies will recognise the threat and will buy out the little company, or just squash them like a bug...

    Police forces, Prisons, Schools, Healthcare, all need to be publicly funded and publicly run because they are in the public interest.

    Everybody pays tax to contribute to roads and bridges... why wouldn't you pay for healthcare and education too?

    The US has the most expensive healthcare in the world which makes it inaccessable for a sizeable proportion of the population, but they will spend three quarters of a trillion dollars on "defence".

    More importantly most people don't give a shit about politics except stuff that directly effects them.

    Those black lives matters protesters don't care about the ozone layer, they have one problem they are focussed on and don't care about anything else.

    Here in New Zealand on our 10 dollar note we have a lady called Kate Sheppard... she was a suffragette... she wanted voting for women. Learned about her in school. Thought she was a hero. Turns out she wanted voting rights for women at a time when working people didn't get a vote... only male land owner got the vote at that time so she was demanding the vote for all women at a time when most people didn't get a vote anyway.

    I would have had more respect for her if she was demanding the vote for all adults over 18 years of age...

    The point is that western democracy doesn't work at all either... soviet communism could have worked... the way chinese communism is working, but not while trying to fight off the entire western world and her colonies.

    WW2 happened because Germans were given an open playing field, this would not have happened had commies not surrendered WW1

    World War 2 happened because Britain and France and the US decided to blame WWI squarely on the shoulders of Germany, and basically whipped and pilloried Germany for the next 40 years... even today WWII was a war against the German bad guys.

    Britain and France and the US are not trying to equate Nazism and Communism so they can blame Russia for everything.... which is weird because the west was happy to jump into bed with Stalin to get his help against Hitler and said lots of nice things about the Soviets at the time, but then they jumped straight in to bed with Nazi west germany and imperial japan when that war ended...

    If they don't have an enemy then they will realise how many problems they have of their own that need fixing...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem is that western propaganda is very strong...

    You killed half of your own population, it was definitely last laugh for quite a few folks, RIP

    The Germans killed more than Stalin ever came close to...

    Problem is that Western education system is not quite strong, history doesn't begin and end with Stalin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25272
    Points : 25818
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:46 pm

    The west murders their enemies every day.... there are thousands of people in Africa and central and south America who want for their countries what the west currently enjoys and when they stick their heads up to make a change the CIA or the French or the British or the Belgians cut them off... the third world remaining poor is not an accident... the purpose of the three worlds is to make us distinct from our enemies... the second world, and where we feed... the third world.

    Ironically the third world contains some of the worlds greatest civilisations...

    Problem is that Western education system is not quite strong, history doesn't begin and end with Stalin

    You are quoting wiki at me? Have you seen the wiki pages on the conflicts in your neck of the woods?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9235
    Points : 9317
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:...You are quoting wiki at me? Have you seen the wiki pages on the conflicts in your neck of the woods?

    Did my neck of the woods somehow retroactively alter the bodycount of Russian Civil War?

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25272
    Points : 25818
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:36 pm

    Do you think wiki is only accurate when talking about communist crimes, but its patchy nature in every other regard can be ignored?

    Isn't it funny that the article about the Crimea and what happened in 2014 is essentially presented as a war crime....

    In February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution that ousted the Ukrainian President, Viktor Yanukovych, Russia annexed Crimea after a military intervention by pro-Russian separatists and Russian Armed Forces.[7] A controversial Crimea-wide referendum, unconstitutional under the Ukrainian and Crimean constitutions,[8][9][10] was held on the issue of reunification with Russia; its official results showed majority support for reunification, however, the vote was boycotted by many loyal to Ukraine[11][12] and declared illegitimate by Western governments and the United Nations. Russia formally annexed Crimea on 18 March 2014, incorporating the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol as the 84th and 85th federal subjects of Russia.[13]

    Those poor innocent Ukrainians who just want to be left in peace by those evil violent bloodthirsty Russians...

    Yet the people of Diego Garcia seem to have no rights at all.. forced into labour from the age of 12, the people of that island were forced to work on farms... pensioners and the disabled were allowed to stay in return for light labour duties... well aren't their British and American overlords too soft on them?

    Have a read of its history, but then at least they escaped having their islands nuked like the people of the Marshall Islands...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

    So according to Wiki... Russia bad and UK and US good... how about not using wiki as evidence of anything other than proof wiki is controlled by the west and promotes their narratives..

    Sponsored content

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 6 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:59 am