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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:46 am


    India does not want war with China. But when invaded will have to fight back.

    I fully understand and support that... but don't close your eyes... the best solution for Americas economic problems during the great depression was WWII, and the people that pull the strings and have money and power in the west benefit from major wars and lets face it... the UK is going to be in the shit on its own... we know how petty and nasty the EU and US can be to those who don't follow their rules blindly and have their own views and opinions... and America is running at full steam to its own inevidible economic collapse by increasing their military budget and other hard line activities instead of cutting them back and being more fiscally responsible... it will come to a point where their only solution will be wars with those countries that hold their foreign debt so when they win the war they can write off said debt and continue a little longer... India should be aware and not be dragged in to such a screw up.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:38 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Well, at the behest of India, Russia was brought in to negotiate sort of.  China isn't interested but partook, because they think that they are not at fault.  China is indeed fully responsible for the border issue with India.

    But, while tensions are still high, both sides are pushing this to be resolved peacefully and respectfully. And rightly so because they too know they benefit nothing over this ordeal.

    As I said to someone else outside the series of tubes, the best option now is India to enforce the area with bunkers, fences and equipment. China will do the same. But having physical assets where it becomes impossible to maneuver around each other, it forces both their hands from encroachment and to be nice.

    Russia still heavily enforces their Chinese border even though they are aware that the western border is their most likely hotbed.

    China has to grow up and stop with these temper tantrums.  China would gain way more respect, then power, if they just stopped with the petty land encroachment and censorship of media that criticizes them (south park as example).  Because their lashing out, all around them, will just garner less support.

    Chinese doesn't respect the weak and disfuncional. Despite Russian economy, Russia is military powerhouse that China only dreams to be. India on other hand has no respect from Chinese government. I doubt there will be any major escalation, China might play though but they are quite level headed and prefer status quo.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:51 am

    Thanks Garry. I was commenting on that last post you mention when your post below appeared so binned it.


    Last edited by JohninMK on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Comment added after Garry's next post.)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:58 am

    No disrespect Medo, but I don't think your last off topic post would be or could be the last on that topic so I have moved it all to here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t5390p100-india-pakistan-kashmir-conflict

    Please feel free to continue discussing, but also be civil.

    When it becomes circular and pointless it will likely be locked for a bit...
    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:27 am

    GarryB wrote:No disrespect Medo, but I don't think your last off topic post would be or could be the last on that topic so I have moved it all to here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t5390p100-india-pakistan-kashmir-conflict

    Please feel free to continue discussing, but also be civil.

    When it becomes circular and pointless it will likely be locked for a bit...

    Except -- and with all due respect -- my posts were largely all concerning the MiG-35 and its weapons and defensive systems and particularly the one sold to Egypt and this being a thread about the MiG-29M and 35, I feel that at least the ones I posted of the systems of that aircraft should've stayed here TBH. Discussing the armament that came with them is also pertaining to the specific aircraft model. The only issue was the one line that I mentioned about the incident and comparison in range between the AMRAAM and the R-77 since I was focusing on which missile the EAF had bought with its MiG-35 and that I would hope it was on par with the AMRAAM. That's hardly a Kashmire issue to tell you the truth. Neither did I think there would be such a fallout of arguing about the incident. For that I do apologize and that is why I didn't post at all yesterday. I was a little concerned that things had taken off in the wrong direction. My ultimate interest is in the Egyptian MiG-35 and its weapons capabilities just so we're clear.

    Was that something that shouldn't be discussed in this thread?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:57 am

    I want to be completely clear this is OUR forum, and you can certainly talk about decisions made, though I would normally prefer PM rather than open forum discussions... in this case I think it is useful to go through the process do everyone can see what happens, but in future most of this stuff should be via PM.

    Feel free to repost the stuff strictly about the MiG-35 on this thread, but if you want to discuss it in regard with another air force other than Russia then it needs to happen in an appropriate thread... ie for Egyptian MiGs then a thread in the Egypt section would be the best place.

    The Russian AF has a fully integrated air defence network and also access to their latest air and ground support equipment... the confusion that happened regarding the incident that was being discussed would not have happened as the Russian units with radars on listen mode and IRSTs on but receiving a visual picture of enemy forces via other platforms or one aircraft in the flight with its radar on... everyone would know who was who and who was doing what.

    It is not perfect, sometimes things happen so it appears to have failed... for instance KAL007 was suspected to be a spy plane so it was shot down. Mathias Rust was in a cessna which was clearly not a military threat so helicopters were sent to track him... helicopters with no radar and no training in interception of aircraft... the alternative would have been for the MiG-23s to basically shoot him down... imagine the butt hurt over that?

    Anyway, this thread is for the Russian Air Force, and specifically news about the MiG-29 and MiG-35 in the Russian Air Force.

    If you want to discuss the impact of experience India has had with its MiGs and how this effects Egypt and what Egypt should do about it then a MiG-35 thread in the Egyptian AF section is the solution.



    I feel that at least the ones I posted of the systems of that aircraft should've stayed here TBH




    I was going to leave them there, but the comments at the end led directly to the off topic discussion so if I left it there it would keep attracting discussion that was off topic... it was easier to move it...

    Note after I said no more off topic Medo could not resist posting another off topic post... and I understand that... if I left all that stuff there it would have been a festering scab and some people like to pick at scabs... they can't stop themselves...

    If you would like I could move it out of the thread I moved it in to and put it in a new thread for Egypt related to their new MiGs, the information on the MiGs would be relevant there too... the problem is that the subject being discussed suits the thread I put it in to.


    The only issue was the one line that I mentioned about the incident and comparison in range between the AMRAAM and the R-77 since I was focusing on which missile the EAF had bought with its MiG-35 and that I would hope it was on par with the AMRAAM. That's hardly a Kashmire issue to tell you the truth. Neither did I think there would be such a fallout of arguing about the incident.



    It is a very contentious issue and I think both governments are lying and we really don't know the truth except for some obvious facts that both sides admit.

    Continuously sifting through the "evidence" and making claims is all that is left, which makes it a very circular argument.

    There is a lot of information and evidence to discuss, but this is the 21st C how hard would it be for a government to get their hands on missiles used by the enemy and as amateurs how can we determine what looks right and what does not?


    My ultimate interest is in the Egyptian MiG-35 and its weapons capabilities just so we're clear.

    Was that something that shouldn't be discussed in this thread?


    As a mod when I see a bleeding wound I try to tie it off quickly before it gets out of hand. Notice I am not a medieval butcher... I don't just delete stuff... this is a discussion forum and even an off topic discussion is a discussion.

    At the time I made a choice... the topic had wandered off topic so the solution is to cut it out as best you can and move it to somewhere where it is on topic and can continue. However often a post might be both on topic and off topic and a choice has to be made as to where it goes.

    You clearly think I made the wrong choice and I accept that I did because the discussion I cut out was more about India and Pakistan than it was about the Russian Air Force... so it doesn't belong here, but also it didn't really relate to Egypt except the first posts... so I had to take it out... it didn't belong there and was going to balloon out and take over the thread... the place I moved it to was on topic for what was actually being discussed in the off topic... the problem was, and only you could tell me this, was that the intended conversation got lost and would be off topic in both threads because the intended discussion was not about the Russian AF and it wasn't about an air incident in India/Pakistan... it was supposed to be about Egypt... but it actually wasn't about that so I couldn't really move it there either without adding a new first post that outlines the actual intent of the discussion which you know.

    The thing is that MiG-29s and MiG-35s weren't involved, and the fact that Egypt is clearly buying new EW equipment for their new planes suggests the results might have been different.

    I think perhaps the best solution might be for you to post a new thread in the suitable section for the Egyptian Air Force and start a discussion there... your first post you can outline what is on topic and what is not... you can copy the first few posts you made in the Russian AF thread that I moved to the Indian thread if you like too.

    Send me a PM and we can work out what you want to do.  Smile

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 on Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I was going to leave them there, but the comments at the end led directly to the off topic discussion so if I left it there it would keep attracting discussion that was off topic... it was easier to move it...

    Gary, no worries at all and I apologize if I unintentionally started this whole hoolamagoob! LOL!  I know it's a super contested issue but honestly, I had no idea it would morph, fester and then avalanche here the way it did.

    You are 100% correct in the decision you made now that I have had a chance to understand it better.

    Really the crux was understanding the capabilities of the MiG-35 and the differences in the export versions and the actual difference between the current MiG-29M/M2 and the supposed & eventual form of the MiG-35 which is really a super difficult subject to understand, given the almost limitless options including missile variants & their capabilities.  

    Instead of bugging you with a PM (which I appreciate), let's leave things as is and move on.  Thanks and feel free to delete this post (and the other one too) after reading it.  Cheers.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:41 am

    Gary, no worries at all and I apologize if I unintentionally started this whole hoolamagoob! LOL! I know it's a super contested issue but honestly, I had no idea it would morph, fester and then avalanche here the way it did.

    No worries... that particular discussion had come up before on another thread so I was expecting it to take up quite a few pages... which is why I moved it... there was not much chance of swinging it back towards the MiG-29/35.

    There is a bit of pride involved and everyone loves a good murder mystery... collecting evidence, analysing statements working out which bad guy did it, or more accurately which of the bad guys is most to blame... and that is fine... as long as it remains a discussion and not an argument... and it happens in a place where you expect to find it... coming to this thread expecting to read news about MiG-35s and reading about India and Pakistan having a conflict that does not involve a Fulcrum of any type and you feel something is wrong. And when there are lots of new posts being added all the time and they are not on topic either then you start thinking George and I are not doing our jobs... Shocked

    You are 100% correct in the decision you made now that I have had a chance to understand it better.

    I am glad you agree.

    I will now move this stuff that is off topic to the talking bollocks thread...

    PapaDragon
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 5 Empty Did some looking up about all this because EU and USA behavior was pretty odd (they usually jump on this stuff) and I think our guys were right

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:04 pm


    Did some looking up about all this because EU and USA behavior was pretty odd (they usually jump on this stuff) and I think our guys were right

    This thing is a foreign ops but not CIA or usual suspects, it's organized by local neighborhood: Croatia, Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo and Montenegro with probably additional involvement by other Eeast European meat shields

    Two ex Soviets (Ukrainian and Kyrgyzstani) with Israeli passports were arrested last night (for the second time in two days) when they were setting fire in the streets

    This was most likely to make the whole thing look good for the cameras, Arab Spring/Maidan playbook

    It's extremely unlikely Israel would have been involved here, their passports are convenient protection because it's not USA or EU but it still offers good cover, Israel has been giving them away to people from all sorts of Ex-Soviet shitholes since the 90s

    There are ongoing negotiations about Kosovo (a lot of countries are ditching recognition as well), Montenegro is on the brink of religious civil war/regime change, Bosnia is barely holding together as usual and Croatia is about to be caught up by Serbia on GDP numbers (we already caught up and overtook them on military size despite being dwarfed by them just a decade prior)

    Add pandemic on top of all this and it gets whole lot worse for them this year alone, they all need distraction and a win

    The Ukraine of course would love to fuck with us in order to stick it to the Ruskies but they can't say anything out loud of course because of Crimea, we didn't recognize it because of Kosovo but they would love to recognize Kosovo in order to suck up to USA and EU some more

    I'm sure Poland and Balts would love to see some shit here too on account of the whole Russia thing

    EU and USA on the other hand have been doing good business here these days both financially and diplomatically (keep in mind that they haven't been seeing eye to eye entirely in this area lately)

    What is telling is the composition of rioters: all are harcore ultranationalists and straight up Nazis. Not the Plan A material for EU and USA but are the only ones that likes of Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and the Ukraine could hire

    One more telling fact is that a lot of cops suffered stabbing wounds, this never happens because nobody does that here (people don't carry knives) but it's par for the course in Ex-USSR

    (I am not saying that EU and USA would mind getting a fully liberal anti-Russian government here or that they would not want this to play out in their advantage but this is simply too clunky for them)



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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Did some looking up about all this because EU and USA behavior was pretty odd (they usually jump on this stuff) and I think our guys were right

    This thing is a foreign ops but not CIA or usual suspects, it's organized by local neighborhood: Croatia, Bosnia, Albania/Kosovo and Montenegro with probably additional involvement by other Eeast European meat shields

    Two ex Soviets (Ukrainian and Kyrgyzstani) with Israeli passports were arrested last night (for the second time in two days) when they were setting fire in the streets

    This was most likely to make the whole thing look good for the cameras, Arab Spring/Maidan playbook

    It's extremely unlikely Israel would have been involved here, their passports are convenient protection because it's not USA or EU but it still offers good cover, Israel has been giving them away to people from all sorts of Ex-Soviet shitholes since the 90s

    There are ongoing negotiations about Kosovo (a lot of countries are ditching recognition as well), Montenegro is on the brink of religious civil war/regime change, Bosnia is barely holding together as usual and Croatia is about to be caught up by Serbia on GDP numbers (we already caught up and overtook them on military size despite being dwarfed by them just a decade prior)

    Add pandemic on top of all this and it gets whole lot worse for them this year alone, they all need distraction and a win

    The Ukraine of course would love to fuck with us in order to stick it to the Ruskies but they can't say anything out loud of course because of Crimea, we didn't recognize it because of Kosovo but they would love to recognize Kosovo in order to suck up to USA and EU some more

    I'm sure Poland and Balts would love to see some shit here too on account of the whole Russia thing

    EU and USA on the other hand have been doing good business here these days both financially and diplomatically (keep in mind that they haven't been seeing eye to eye entirely in this area lately)

    What is telling is the composition of rioters: all are harcore ultranationalists and straight up Nazis. Not the Plan A material for EU and USA but are the only ones that likes of Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and the Ukraine could hire

    One more telling fact is that a lot of cops suffered stabbing wounds, this never happens because nobody does that here (people don't carry knives) but it's par for the course in Ex-USSR

    (I am not saying that EU and USA would mind getting a fully liberal anti-Russian government here or that they would not want this to play out in their advantage but this is simply too clunky for them)




    Would make sense. There's a growing schism taking place between Eastern Europe and Western Europe
    Western Europe being controlled by globalist governments (albeit with growing nationalist insurgencies over all these tools and machinations being employed in an attempt to create globalist identities there; white, black, LGBT, ecowarrior, etc...)
    Eastern Europe meanwhile being controlled by nationalist elites who have stayed obedient to the West and globalist interests for as long as the dough from Brussels keeps flowing in

    When Trump was elected it was a victory for nationalist elites in Eastern Europe too and they felt emboldened as well, started pressing for greater independence from globalism and Brussels.

    Now that the globalists have launched an insurrection against Trump in America, the calculus is quickly changing. Police in America are being defunded, beaten, demoralized, leaving the force. This is not an accident, it's a regime change plan to be activated in the event that Trump wins again in November. The chance of him surviving aren't great. Following his downfall, there may be some local rebellions in the US but they will be quickly suppressed or negotiated away.

    Eastern European elites have seen the writing on the wall and are consolidating themselves. Russia for them, makes for if not an ally, than at least a potential partner. But first they want to present a united front, so overthrowing Serbia won't do any harm. After they consolidate, they can start to spread an ideology of Christian supremacy and White Supremacy and try to provide support to the beleaguered nationalists in Western Europe and the US.

    Russia for its part is entering a period of turmoil, although few yet realize it. The Putin clan has been in recent years pursuing a policy of covert Russification in school programs, closing down of wholly native language schools (only 4 out of 22 republics still have them), and making native language lessons in the schools of various republics non-obligatory for Russians and other non-titular ethnicities there; in direct contradiction of the Marxist-Leninst principles on which the Russian Federation was formed 100 years ago. The replacement policy of native languages learning on an optional basis in Russian schools is hardly a reasonable substitution and fast leading the loss of native language proficiency among peoples living on their own land. This is contributing to discontent in some of the federal subject republics and autonomous districts, albeit still on a low level. Putin has started to employ so-called Great Russian chauvinism in foreign policy too, talking about 'Russian lands' that are part of other ex-Soviet republics. The recent changes to the constitution, apart from simply declaring Putin as Tsar for life via means of an African plebiscite that has evoked much cynicism from anyone with an iota of political consciousness about its true results - have also entered ethnic Russians as a state-founding people. This point is important, as it implies that other peoples in Russia are not state-founding peoples; when in fact most of them had their own states prior to Russian Imperial expansion. The Bolsheviks recognized that fact in 1917 and granted everyone some form of either federal representation or all-union representation in the case of the larger and more self-sufficient peoples. Putin does not recognize this and has publicly stated earlier that Lenin laid a bomb under Russia's foundation. In fact it is Putin which is laying the bomb. The ultimate goal here is dissolve at least some of these entities and turn all parts of Russian territory into equal regions irrespective of their native peoples and their own histories of statehood. Regions to which the Tsar can then appoint his loyal counts and barons to rule as their own fiefdoms in return for loyalty to Moscow. Funilly enough the elites that most supported Putin in this endeavour are from Chechnya, the same Kadyrov and his clan. Maybe it fits into their ambitions within Russia, or maybe they are just covert separatists on a mission to break apart the country.

    The federal republics are resisting and rapidly asserting their own regional identities. And not only the republics either, funnily enough. This year in the Yamalo-Nenets Okrug, where the Nenets people people make up only a few percent of the population, local clans have mobilized the population into mass rallies, singing songs about the north that someone thought up for them. The cause was an attempt by the federal centre to hold a referendum (which naturally it will falsify) on the merging of Yamalo-Nenets to the neighbouring Arkhangelsk region. The average salary in the former is about x3 greater than in the later, which is fairly economically depressed. The Yamalo-Nenets Okrug is very sparsely populated but rich in natural resources. Therefore the material conditions are such that it's far more preferable for both its wider population and its elites to stay independent.
    In Khakassia the elites have taken it upon themselves to introduce the local language into all schools and popularize it, popularize the indigenous culture. This despite the fact that Khakassians make up barely 12% of the population and the head of the republic is ethnically Russian.

    So we're entering a period of feudal turmoil, much as during the times of Kievan Rus', with various principalities all fighting each other, attempting to install their own Grand Prince in Kiev and so on.
    The country is again entering the period it was once in at the time that Putin assumed office in it. And all because he has gone mad with his own self-messianic mission, has persuaded himself that he's the only man for the job. All political parties have been bought out, all results, referendums are being falsified, all social and public discussion has been centralized onto various TV shows and forums where the scope for true debate is increasingly narrowed.

    The same process is of course happening all across the ex-USSR too. Then we have the pan-Turkic idiots in Turkey, supported by NATO, who have set up a 'Turkic Council', to which all Turkic states but Turkmenistan are now members too, and is now demanding land from Armenia, in order to connect Turkey with Azerbaijan, and then the rest of Central Asia via the Caspian Sea. Possibly they might try to offer Nagorny-Karabakh to Armenia in return, but the Armenians aren't that dumb so likely it would mean war, and with Moscow's participation on the side of Armenia.
    The concealed pan-Turkic elite in Kazakhstan is busy rewriting history, talking about Golodomor, organizing pogroms against the Dungan people (ethnic Chinese Muslims who emigrated to Central Asia 150 years ago) for not knowing the Kazakh language. Once enough Russians and other minorities leave I'm pretty sure that they will start glorifying the Turkestan Legion of Wehrmacht times. Kazakh nationalists are now claiming Orenburg as old Kazakh territory. Orenburg of course is the province that divides Central Asia from Turkic Bashkiria and Tatarstan in Russia.

    As a socialist it hasn't escaped my notice - the similarity of the processes occurring all across former Soviet territories. Everywhere we have these 'fathers of nations' - Putin, Lukashenko, Rakhmon, Nazarbayev (formelly), Karimov (RIP), Kadyrov, Aliev, Turkmenbashi and so on. Everyone's heads are being filled with that they're the greatest people, the most ancient, the ones with the greatest destinies. While the character of regimes differ and the severity of the measures they implement, more or less, everyone is still conducting chauvinistic and assimilatory politics to various extents.
    In Russia we seem to be heading towards the pre-revolutionary social order, and as a result are increasingly adopting many of the inherent contradictions of the times leading up to the revolution as well.

    I don't see why I really should fight on the side of the White Guards, waving the Vlasov flag, against some Kazakh nationalists, or god forbid Russia's own citizens if it comes to it. It's all a battle between oligarchs for control employing the use of various ideologies. The only place I would support a war is to defend Armenia, because this region is crucial to prevent the formation of a Turkic supremicist bloc wielded as a tool by Erdogan and NATO against Russia and China. In the Ukraine I support no war of expansion, only defense of the original rebellious Donbass region.

    I'm convinced though that there is still time to avert disaster and build up a pan ex-USSR socialist anti-war and anti-assimilation policy movement. This is the only thing that can save this whole region from pointless bloodshed.
    I hope that some Kremlin clan gets rid of Putin and starts to institute a more sane, civil policy, and starts to follow the Russian constitution, in which it is written that everyone has a right to education in a language of their choosing. In addition to many other things written there, that are similarly not being followed.
    Because the worst case is another brawl between Bolsheviks, White Guards and various separatists, only with the globalist West and nationalist Poland now in stronger positions, and regardless of who wins, the whole process will be so destructive, that even if Russia survives as a state, the only thing left for it to would be to serve as a resource appendage to China.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:36 pm

    Now that was a massive load of bullshit I have ever read flaming.

    Damn you live in some kind of fantasy.

    The biggest disgrace was this so called overall self identity that these minorities had. Getting rid of it will eventually bring everyone together.  Diversity isn't a strength and that was obvious during Soviet times. But Putin has embraced that stupid idea that somehow being diverse will unite them. It won't and doesnt.  Chechnya is pro Russian simply because they are paid to and because of rather concervative values they also share. Not that I also agree with such views.

    But the country has never been so United before. Thinking otherwise is delusion through drunkenness.

    The region's pushing their own language was a bs move back in the 90's. We got same stupid shit here where you go to areas and no one speaks English or refuses to. Fuck it
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Now that was a massive load of bullshit I have ever read flaming.

    Damn you live in some kind of fantasy.

    The biggest disgrace was this so called overall self identity that these minorities had. Getting rid of it will eventually bring everyone together.  Diversity isn't a strength and that was obvious during Soviet times. But Putin has embraced that stupid idea that somehow being diverse will unite them. It won't and doesnt.  Chechnya is pro Russian simply because they are paid to and because of rather concervative values they also share. Not that I also agree with such views.

    But the country has never been so United before. Thinking otherwise is delusion through drunkenness.

    The region's pushing their own language was a bs move back in the 90's.  We got same stupid shit here where you go to areas and no one speaks English or refuses to.  Fuck it

    Diversity is neither a strength nor a weakness. It is what it is. Managed properly it can lead to an example for the entire world. And that should be the goal. Policies of assimilation always backfire as the Russian Empire and then Soviet Union learned.

    The main thing is people's unity. It exists in Russia without a need for any policy of assimilation; which will only threaten it. People's unity can be build through people's democracy through a system of Soviets, where all matters are discussed, and through at least a partial Marxist economy. But that's a whole other story. Right now the priority should be to prevent a shit show.

    Everyone already knows Russian and no-one refuses to speak it. The question is not about that.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:50 pm

    No it doesn't. There was barely any unity. Only reason why the non Russian regions stayed Russian was either 1) force or 2) because locals barely exist and rest are Russian.

    Diversity is a curse and it's bullshit is what killed USSR. Deny it all you want but having a clear unity through an identity (This is Russia and we are Russians regardless of belief or whatever) is a far better identity to grab onto than "unity through diversity" cause eventually someone will think they are better than everyone else in Russia and guess what, Chechnya happened twice.

    Your showpiece examples are simply that - showpiece. It's moron liberals claiming diversity this or that where they sing about something stupid or push their dead regional language is something that a struggling culture clings to.  They will eventually face the facts and their so called culture and language will die off.  And Russia will be better off with that.  See Tatarstan as example - for years they refused (before Putin) to be Russian. Now they are nothing but a headache that will eventually go due to Russian ethnic numbers vs their own.  Yes, Putin is right, Lenin did put a bomb under Russia's foundation and it became apparent after USSR.

    But so called commies are too dumb to realize that. They just don't realize that when promoting diversity, you promote tribalism. And that is what these others are - tribes. And they cling onto something that is nothing.

    Call it Nazi viewpoint or whatever. Point is, it's a massive problem for us in Canada. And at least Russia learned it's lessons that we failed to do so ourselves.

    Point of example: USSR horrifically failed and lived much shorter life than Russian Empire which had the russification doctrine.  Gee, I wonder why?  Guaranteed if the Tsars decided to allow free healthcare, education and equal opportunity to all, no socialist movement would have succeeded. So their failures were entirely due to not culture but health and workers rights.  1990's was all about thiefdoms and quasi dictators as governors.

    Want a perfect example of a failing state where they embraced the idea of being different from each other? Look no further than India. Where south india and northern India don't speak a common language other than English, or where Gujraties can't understand a Punjabi or vice versa. Already areas of such hate the other and look to form their own state. Hell, you got Khalistanies who try to push for Punjab to be its own country.

    The government tried with Hindi but failed horribly. While Hindi is spoken, it isn't spoken as much as you would expect. Now everyone sees themselves as different and the country barely holds together.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:05 pm

    Except that all throughout the ex-USSR you still have people that uphold Soviet identity

    These are people speaking different native languages, having different racial appearances, being nominally at least of different religions

    But ones that understand that pride is not to be found in any of these things, but rather in the achievements of society and the state under Soviet socialism.
    Because indeed the achievements of the USSR were not a result of the Russian people, or the wider Soviet people. But exactly because of its system, of its social and economic order.

    Tribal identities is what people fall back to once they realize that the whole system is a lie, does not uphold its own principles and constitution, that it's all an excuse for petty assimilation to homogenize society under some privileged people's rule, and that the economy is hardly doing great anyway. The beggining of this process again is what we have in Russia now.

    Russifying everyone and killing off all native languages is not a solution. First of all I consider it a crime. Secondly it does not in all cases destroy ethnic identity and solidarity; ask the Irish about that. Thirdly even if it was somehow achieved, people will still look different, and then competing elites will start to turn to new ways to divide people; maybe religion, or maybe race like in America.
    Furthermore it is difficult. It can lead to a counter-reaction; rebellion, demographic arms race and so on.
    Smaller languages, cultures can eventually die off or merge, over long periods of time, but by no means should the process be forced, and efforts to preserve these cultures and languages should be the responsibility of the state. So that the people know that this is their state, and not some occupying one.

    The only solution is the creation of an overarching new identity on top of everyone's present ones. One that is not tied to native culture, language, religion; but is capable of respecting all of those. This is an identity of the social order, of the achievements of all people's working together.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:13 pm

    Bullshit. The USSR died and it wasn't tiny native clans that held it together. And self identifying is what actually killed USSR. It's selfishness of these other groups of people. People inherently want to and try to be better than others. They will do so even through concept of tribalism where they try to get ahead even if it means they do so by congregating their own group.

    As I said, tiny fractured groups who push some stupid bullshit isn't even hints of anything. Outside of Moscow and st Petersburg is overall greater representation of the votes and guess what, Putin is most popular with them. It's literally the shittiest liberal manifestation of St.pete and Moscow regions who seem to be the most hate for Putin. And seeing your from st.pete, I'm not surprised.  This was represented in recent votes in constitutional change FFS. Where it was heavily split in those two areas but a massive yes vote east.

    Reality is different. And USSR had a hilariously short life span and it's obvious why.  Clinging onto that is just not admitting that it failed.  Now we got the results - Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc etc etc.

    Russia keeps United because of the Russian ideology. Nothing more.  You will start to see further disintegration of diverse nations.

    Anyway, it isn't like they banned the regional languages. It's the region's not funding it. There shouldn't be a mandatory minority language.

    As I said, look at India. What you believe in would destroy Russia.  As it's doing in other countries now.

    Did you know Grozney was a cossack city? It's where some of my family was around. Donl you know now due to Chechnya policy that cossacks don't live there anymore?  And we'll, as much as I'm pissed, the fact is it worked for Chechens. Now they got an entire region all to themselves. The concept of tribalism is a failure. Chechnya will probably be lost one day to Russia. Oh well, better off without that shithole. But issue is, the tribes barely stuck with the rest of the nation. Instead, they tolerated the others only because state support. Once that left, they showed their true selves.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:20 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Bullshit. The USSR died and it wasn't tiny native clans that held it together. And self identifying is what actually killed USSR. It's selfishness of these other groups of people. People inherently want to and try to be better than others. They will do so even through concept of tribalism where they try to get ahead even if it means they do so by congregating their own group.

    As I said, tiny fractured groups who push some stupid bullshit isn't even hints of anything. Outside of Moscow and st Petersburg is overall greater representation of the votes and guess what, Putin is most popular with them. It's literally the shittiest liberal manifestation of St.pete and Moscow regions who seem to be the most hate for Putin. And seeing your from st.pete, I'm not surprised.  This was represented in recent votes in constitutional change FFS. Where it was heavily split in those two areas but a massive yes vote east.

    Reality is different. And USSR had a hilariously short life span and it's obvious why.  Clinging onto that is just not admitting that it failed.  Now we got the results - Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc etc etc.

    Russia keeps United because of the Russian ideology. Nothing more.  You will start to see further disintegration of diverse nations.

    Anyway, it isn't like they banned the regional languages. It's the region's not funding it. There shouldn't be a mandatory minority language.

    As I said, look at India. What you believe in would destroy Russia.  As it's doing in other countries now.

    lol @ hillariously short lifespan

    In fact the Russian Empire, assuming that it would have somehow survived Hitler's onslaught (which it wouldn't have), would have crumbled apart by the 50s and 60s much like all the European colonial empires did. And Russia today would have been considerably smaller after a lot more bloodshed.

    The world changed, and it's continuing to change now. We're in the era of supranational identities, and the Russian Emp... sorry, Federation, has nothing to offer apart from cloaked ethnic assimilation while serving a clique of oligarchs with no clue. All told it is doomed if things carry on like this. Even the Muslims have surpassed ethnic differences long ago, and Islamic identity is well strengthened in Russia now too.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:26 pm

    Ah yes, the assumed Muslim race growing.  But the joke is, they constitute at best 9% of the population. Last was 7%.

    No, nothing will make it worst for Russia. Maybe some shithole like Chechnya separates and good, they are a burden.  But as said, majority who support this government are outside of the western region of Russia.  East is where Putin does best.

    Yes, change does happen. And the identity Russia is pushing is what America was trying to push. Doesn't matter if you are white, black, blue green or whatever, you are American.  That's what is being pushed in Russia.  Your inability to learn from history as what we are seeing in India, Canada, Myanmar, etc where tribes are trying to be better than the other, is what is destroying the country.

    The little groups who cling onto their dead identity are simply doing it to try and gain power. But they are losing said power.  And it's great.

    Yugoslavia was all diversity. Now look at it. LOL.

    And USSR survived from 1919 to 1993. How long did Russia's empire survive? Longer than that.

    The only identity USSR had was communism. And that failed. To the point the term commie is seen as very bad now everywhere besides a few countries.  That ideology failed. So Russia is building a new one. As far as people are concerned, only pissed off people are Moscovites and St.Cuckersberg socialites. And maybe some Muslim groups who view every none Muslim as a Kaffir anyway.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:33 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Ah yes, the assumed Muslim race growing.  But the joke is, they constitute at best 9% of the population. Last was 7%.

    No, nothing will make it worst for Russia. Maybe some shithole like Chechnya separates and good, they are a burden.  But as said, majority who support this government are outside of the western region of Russia.  East is where Putin does best.

    Yes, change does happen. And the identity Russia is pushing is what America was trying to push. Doesn't matter if you are white, black, blue green or whatever, you are American.  That's what is being pushed in Russia.  Your inability to learn from history as what we are seeing in India, Canada, Myanmar, etc where tribes are trying to be better than the other, is what is destroying the country.

    The little groups who cling onto their dead identity are simply doing it to try and gain power. But they are losing said power.  And it's great.

    Yugoslavia was all diversity. Now look at it. LOL.

    And USSR survived from 1919 to 1993. How long did Russia's empire survive? Longer than that.

    Yeah America ain't doing great now either. And by no means is it what I want my own nation to turn into - a homogenized mess where the last thing left is to divide people by the color of their skin and for them to assume tribal identities from that. Now they're adding global LGBT people and others to that too. Western Europe is undergoing the same process as ordered from above. No-one will be tied to their land, Western Europe will adopt America's social order, a land of diasporas in which no-one is truly native; everyone has some fake BS identity.

    As for Russian identity in Russia - I'm absolutely all for it. But not ethnic Russian identity, civil Russian identity. Where everyone's native language, religion, etc... is respected equally. Unfortunately I don't see that as where we're going.

    The Russian Empire survived until 1917. It couldn't reform, and made a lot of silly bloody decisions. The USSR survived until 1991, before being torn up by competing beurocratic clans fresh out of other ideas and with widespread cyncism among its population to all the principles of socialism that it claimed to uphold but increasingly betrayed. Still, there's no way that the Russian Empire would have lasted until 1991.

    Problem BTW is not with Muslims, but with Islamic identity, funded by all these borgouise clans. And it sticks because again, there's no better idea around.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:40 pm

    You don't see that...how? Because they don't make it mandentory to speak it?  Or they don't fund and promote schools that are self segregated schools of only that language?  Fuck off.  That is the definition of self segregation. Not promoting diversity.  Give people the option.  If they don't want to fund and learn it in their regions, then I guess the language is as good as dead.

    Nothing stops these people practicing their beliefs and language either.  Fuck, all I saw on vesti news was bullshit diversity crap. Fuck, even Chechnya is mostly just Chechen schools where Russian is mandatory but so is Chechen.  They decided that. Russian government isn't stopping that.  It's up to the region's to fund it. Making Russian language mandentory is obvious and Soviets did that too. Till they started with the "Ukrainian" hillbilly language.

    We did the nonsense of allowing the force of learning Inuit language which sounds like someone choking a duck, in Nunivut and they are only 40,000 people. But guess what, most speak that there now and communication is a bitch. Go to Quebec and it's worst. My friend is sailing through the rivers of Quebec and before he does he has to fill out a French document in French. In fucking Canada.

    I'm glad rest of Russia doesn't feel the way you do. Or you will end up like us

    As for the Muslims. How they operate in Russia is how they operate everywhere. They are like that. Since your bullshit of diversity allowed them to flourish there, it's now your mess. I don't disagree with Poland's methods tbh.  At least they keep an identity and stick to it.  You Russians can't make up your mind and as someone does (Putin) many of you lot cry. Yet the minorities love him.

    I just read an article how a black woman feels free in Russia compared to USA (this was USA today article which screwed with me mentally since something good to be said about Russia in a us magazine was a shocker). So it must not be bad for minorities like liberals claim
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:52 pm

    I like you Python. But I disagree vehemently to your viewpoint. And this has nothing to do with Serbia.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:You don't see that...how? Because they don't make it mandentory to speak it?  Or they don't fund and promote schools that are self segregated schools of only that language?  Fuck off.  That is the definition of self segregation. Not promoting diversity.  Give people the option.  If they don't want to fund and learn it in their regions, then I guess the language is as good as dead.

    Nothing stops these people practicing their beliefs and language either.  Fuck, all I saw on vesti news was bullshit diversity crap. Fuck, even Chechnya is mostly just Chechen schools where Russian is mandatory but so is Chechen.  They decided that. Russian government isn't stopping that.  It's up to the region's to fund it. Making Russian language mandentory is obvious and Soviets did that too. Till they started with the "Ukrainian" hillbilly language.

    We did the nonsense of allowing the force of learning Inuit language which sounds like someone choking a duck, in Nunivut and they are only 40,000 people. But guess what, most speak that there now and communication is a bitch. Go to Quebec and it's worst. My friend is sailing through the rivers of Quebec and before he does he has to fill out a French document in French. In fucking Canada.

    I'm glad rest of Russia doesn't feel the way you do. Or you will end up like us

    As for the Muslims. How they operate in Russia is how they operate everywhere. They are like that. Since your bullshit of diversity allowed them to flourish there, it's now your mess. I don't disagree with Poland's methods tbh.  At least they keep an identity and stick to it.  You Russians can't make up your mind and as someone does (Putin) many of you lot cry. Yet the minorities love him.

    I just read an article how a black woman feels free in Russia compared to USA (this was USA today article which screwed with me mentally since something good to be said about Russia in a us magazine was a shocker). So it must not be bad for minorities like liberals claim

    Problem is various regions have different capabilities, monetary ones, as well as leverage against the centre. The federal government should take it upon itself to decide this problem, provide native language schools for all who request them. Simple as. And in that way, be an example for the rest of the ex-Soviet bloc where more regressive policies are followed.
    Right now we have a slow emigration of Kazakhs to Kazakhstan because all their schools were turned into Russian-language ones. They make up a lot of people, 1-2 million in Russia, but are spread out and concentrated in certain regions, they don't have their own republic to build schools for them. Kazakhstan could build schools for them, and fill their heads with pan-Turkic ideology; which is not particularly desirable. And why should a foreign country have to provide for Russia's own citizens? This will only strengthen their loyalty to Kazakhstan if it does take place, not to Russia.

    What do you mean diversity BS? The USSR's population was 33% Muslim, and most weren't that religious or religious but in a mild form; no Middle East BS there. Even Chechnya, was largely secular back then.
    Again it depends on the social order. Whatever the social order - such are the people.
    It's actually modern Russia's problem. It fuels both Russian chauvinism, and Muslim identity at the same time, all these competing business clans.
    I have no problem with mosques or people practicing their religion, but I do have a problem with these clans and Islamic lobbies and so on; they're in it for their own interests.
    Kadyrov invites various UAE, Qatar, Saudi emissaries to each new grand mosque built in Chechnya. The last one built was particularly exquisite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiTxHWBVXI4

    But of course Putin thinks that he has everything under control, that via Kadyrov he can in turn exercise influence on these Gulf Arab monarchies and so on. And he's right, he does have it under control. While he's around. But he won't be around forever, regardless of his plans to declare himself Tsar for life; and at that point the tables can rapidly be turned on Russia.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...making native language lessons in the schools of various republics non-obligatory for Russians...

    As it should be

    Do Latvians force their own people to learn Russian?

    Do Turks force their own people to learn Kurdish?

    Do Greeks force their own people to learn Turkish?

    Do Chinese force their own people to learn Uighur?

    It's mind-boggling that this abomination existed for so long



    flamming_python wrote:...their own histories of statehood...

    Tribalism is not statehood

    Any region east of Volga that would try to secede would never be anything more than poor man's version of Kyrgyzstan

    There is a reason why Central Asia is a shithole and always will be, economy doesn't care about ''culture''

    Without support system of a civilized nation it will be nothing more than a primitive wasteland same as Rockies in North America or Tibet in China



    flamming_python wrote:...Policies of assimilation always backfire as the Russian Empire and then Soviet Union learned...

    Policies of assimilation in USSR worked perfectly: all Russians in Ex-Soviet states have been completely assimilated by local population as was the plan of the CPUSSR



    flamming_python wrote:...Except that all throughout the ex-USSR you still have people that uphold Soviet identity...

    What parallel realty do you live in?

    Russia is the only place in existence where these degenerate traitors still exist, all other nations have purged this



    flamming_python wrote:...The only solution is the creation of an overarching new identity on top of everyone's present ones. One that is not tied to native culture, language, religion; but is capable of respecting all of those. This is an identity of the social order, of the achievements of all people's working together....

    This freak show was already tried and failed miserably and you want to do it again?

    How many of their own people are Russian commies willing to throw in the mass grave in the service of their socialist cult? (rhetorical question, history has showed that they are willing to kill every last Russian in the name of messiah Marx)


    Anyway this whole mess if off-topic, mods should move these genocidal treasonous commie ramblings to Talking Bollocks tread


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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:...making native language lessons in the schools of various republics non-obligatory for Russians...

    As it should be

    Do Latvians force their own people to learn Russian?

    Do Turks force their own people to learn Kurdish?

    Do Greeks force their own people to learn Turkish?

    Do Chinese force their own people to learn Uighur?

    It's Latvian land, so no they shouldn't force their own people to learn Russian. But having some Russian-language lessons or some schools at least for Russians can't hurt.
    The f*ck is the division between Russians and Latvians anyway? Only the social order that the Latvian elites have themselves constructed, and the paranoia about a Russian invasion.
    But if Russia does invade for no reason, then the fault lies with Russia, not with how Latvian society is ordered. That I can't blame the Latvians for in all honesty. But still, they should respect the Russian language and try to build up a unified society with it included.

    No the Turks don't force their own people to learn Kurdish, they call the Kurds Mountain Turks, force them to learn only Turkish and have been fighting a brutal war against Kurdish seperatists for 50 years, while enforcing a social order of militant nationalism on their own population; that then works wonders when these Turks emigrate to Europe.
    A war that could probably have been avoided I should say, if the Turks thought up of something smarter, instead of hardcore Turk nationalism and assimilation.
    During the days of the Ottoman Empire, Islam united the Turks and the Kurds and the Kurds served as some of the Sultan's most loyal troops. Of course with the collapse of that empire, the Turks were left with a much reduced territory, while the religious idealism that guided the empire naturally collapsed with it, so the Turks needed something new. They set about towards a course of ethnocracy and naturally the Kurds were alienated and adopted the same mindset, dressed up later in the colors of socialism thanks to Soviet support for the PKK, but the essence remained the same; it was tribal warfare. Kurds now cause as many problems in Europe as Turks do.
    Although the decisions of the Turks were logical I can't help but think that socialism should have been tried for instead, and if it failed - just let the Kurds seperate. Who needs these problems.

    About Greeks and Turks I don't know, my impression is that they all just ethnically cleansed each other from everywhere already.

    The Chinese should probably institute some Uighur lessons for Chinese in Uighurstan, and grant the Uighurs the freedom to practice their religion without restrictions. At the end of the day this will facilitate the movement of the Uighur people towards China, not drive them away and make them more and more conscious of their ethnic and religious identity which is what's happening now.

    It's mind-boggling that this abomination existed for so long

    It's mind-boggling how some people think that forced assimilation measures can still work in the 21st century and won't lead to greater blowbacks than the benefits of what they were trying to achieve. Unfortunately some people clearly do think so.


    Tribalism is not statehood

    Any region east of Volga that would try to secede would never be anything more than poor man's version of Kyrgyzstan

    You might think that but China's economic output is now creating its own dynamics. Russia should think about its own model of statehood and its plan of economic development carefully before potentially drawing constituent people's to think that maybe they can benefit by serving as a fulcrum between Russia and China, and do a better job at preserving their own cultures and languages while at it.

    There is a reason why Central Asia is a shithole and always will be, economy doesn't care about ''culture''

    Without support system of a civilized nation it will be nothing more than a primitive wasteland same as Rockies in North America or Tibet in China

    The era of greatest Central Asian prosperity was probably during the Silk Road. That's China to the Middle East, and China to Europe for you. The Middle East is also rising up economically. So again I would be careful with your self-assured predictions. A classic symptom of imperial hubris.

    Of course if the NATO-Turkey plan of inciting pan-Turkic sentiment in Central Asia succeeds, then it will be aimed at China first and foremost, although it won't mean anything good for Russia either. It would also mean however, that the Silk Road will have to go through Russia instead; at least for what concerns China-Europe.

    flamming_python wrote:
    Policies of assimilation in USSR worked perfectly: all Russians in Ex-Soviet states have been completely assimilated by local population as was the plan of the CPUSSR

    In regards to the Caucasus/Asian states, in most of them Russians have been chased out by elites paranoid about them being wielded as a tool by Moscow.
    Still there's a considerable community left in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, while Kazakhstan is still full of them and the entire kaleidiscope of other ex-Soviet ethnicities too; who for most intents and purposes can be counted as Russians as their greatest threat to survival is Kazakh nationalism, that Moscow is capable of tempering for the time being.

    As for the others; Moldova still has plenty, the Baltics still have plenty, the Ukraine still has tons. They have not been assimilated. In some cases they have adopted the identities of their parent states. But that's normal, the main thing is that their language is not under serious assault. In East Ukraine where it is, and the people there are conscious of the fact that they live on their own land and not someone else's - there is a lot of discontent.

    What parallel realty do you live in?

    Russia is the only place in existence where these degenerate traitors still exist, all other nations have purged this

    Not at all. In fact most of the Soviet patriots I have found in real life and the internet are not ethnic Russians and/or are not from Russia.

    This freak show was already tried and failed miserably and you want to do it again?

    How many of their own people are Russian commies willing to throw in the mass grave in the service of their socialist cult? (rhetorical question, history has showed that they are willing to kill every last Russian in the name of messiah Marx)

    What you have to understand is that Russia and in fact the entire ex-Soviet world, is now going through the 'Bourbon syndrome'.

    Much as how the Bourbon monarchy was reinstated in France following Napoleon, capitalism and autocrat splendor has been reinstated in the ex-USSR. And people are increasingly conscious of the fact, that all these revivals of national identities, rewrittings of histories, funding of religions, etc... all these new mosques, cathedrals, statues, parades, etc... bring nothing more for them materially, in fact only causing bloodshed, while their rulers and upper classes are enriching themselves beyond belief, while keeping an atmosphere of social repression. This repression is weakest in Russia out of all these countries, but it's still there and the anticipation is we have no control over our destinies and all tools for feedback towards the elite are themselves owned by the elites and failing to fulfill their functions.

    In other words much in the same manner as how the Bourbon dynasty started to repeat the same material conditions and social contradictions that led to the 1st French Revolution in the first place, so too are we.

    And the fact is that Trotsky predicted this about the USSR, and many socialists pretty much predicted the character of counter-revolution.
    And now we're all reverting to things that have been tried before and have met their failure. Russian chauvinism, Ukrainian Nazism, Baltic Nazism, Pan-Turkism (Golden Horde). Radical Islamism has now been knocked out of the game I suspect for a good while, now that people have seen with their own eyes its inevitable conclusion (ISIS).

    That the first attempt at creating a fundamentally new type of society failed means rather nothing to me. The 1st French Revolution inevitably led to anarchy, debate, and contradictory decisions - then Napoleon appearing on the horizon, declaring 'The revolution is over. I am the revolution'. Who then proceeded to implement the revolution entirely by himself, as he himself understood it - and all the yearnings, social changes and ideas that constitute a revolution. In any revolution there are plenty of them, and 1 man no matter who cannot possibly understand and appease all of them. Napeoleon failed, the monarchy was reinstalled, the monarchy repeated the previous monarchies mistakes, the monarchy was replaced by a constitutional monarchy - a borgouise-aristocrat union, the borgouise-aristocrat union failed and was finally replaced with a full-on borgouise republic.

    We've had our revolution, we've had our Napoleon (Stalin) and our 1st 'republic'. We've had our monarchy reinstalled, and initially completely friendly to the West as intended. 'Alas', our monarchy is now repeating the previous monarchies' mistakes.
    The most logical progression is to try for a borgouise - proletariat union.
    Putin has served beautifully in this regard, completely isolating the Russian borgouise/oligarchs from the borgouise internationale (the West). Now our rulers and elites, have no-one else to turn to, but their own people if they want support for the coming confrontation.

    As for Marx, understand one simple thing. Some people might regard him as a prophet, but that's only due to the influence of Marxist-Leninism which was a specific rewrite of Marxism intented to attempt to install socialism in a backwards feudal society.
    In reality he's just a person who wrote a bunch of what I consider scientific papers. And although his logic in places has been criticized in the 150 years since, and there is scope for correction - his premises have not been abrogated. No-one has managed to form a better theory of social-economic progression or disprove his despite his books having been written in the mid 19th century.
    All that we've had since is the sort of ideological, borgouise, liberal/Christian-value claptrap that exactly Marx called out for what it was in his own time.

    That you view this current borgouise-capitalist mess, and the regurgitation of backward social orders, empires and ideologies in the world ad naseum - as the final end point of civilizational development, is your problem PD. Personally I think you are just lacking a little imagination.
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec

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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 pm

    @Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:29 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python

    WOW...I know you were leaning towards communism but now I know you're a full blown Bolshevik Cool

    If I'm reading Putin's recent statements correctly, I think he is planning on recovering lost Russian lands sooner or later (as he should). Although I think he is aiming to do it peacefully without bloodshed

    I am a socialist but I'm also a Russian patriot and I see our mad Tsar as steering the country towards collapse.
    So why not reinstitute socialism as part of the economy and save the country at the same time? Cool

    Putin should do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Apart from defending the people of the Donbass republics. He has already proven his inadequacy and Russian rule is not enticing for anyone. Why should it be. The same oligarchs.

    What needs to happen now, in theory, is the re-establishment of Soviets by the people in all major Russian cities and federal subjects. Linking up with socialists in other ex-Soviet states to get them to attempt the same. With any luck, the people of the Ukraine, particularly east Ukraine will catch the example. A show of people power, and then the dialogue can begin, both internal, and with the federal, regional and other ex-Soviet elites.
    But still, there is time for someone sane to come to power, who the people can actually talk to, instead of just serving as an intellectual vanguard and shoving ideology down everyone's throats.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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