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72 posters

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:46 am

    This missile is revolution in naval warfare. It is something people do not comprehend,

    This is a fully powered missile flying the the regime of mach 12, fully powered throughout flight, again this is not aero ballistic missile, or glider, or sm3 with warhead on top. Not air missile powered for some seconds and gliding to zone of impact.

    This is a fully powered cruise missile, flying mach 9+ with revolutionary characteristics in terms of fuel, material science, and control systems.

    Remember the USA bought the X-31 for it's own testing. This missile is from the 1970s and flew mach 3.5, the US got it in the 1990s and it was really old Soviet technology that US wanted to test it's own air defenses, they simply did not have the ability to build a supersonic anti ship missile.

    For this reason, the US is with Harpoon, or some variant of NSM, which is nothing comparable to 3m22 Zircon, and the Zircon-M is already in Russian hands, with 1500km range and mach 12 powered flight regime.

    Remember the US is struggling with detachment of AEROballistic, Quasi ballistic missiles, ARRW , which for Russia has been done since X-58. Kinzhal of course is quasi ballistic maneuvering , aero dynamic missile, but this is still not a fully powered, hypersonic aShm.

    Dark horse or eagle or whatever last second improvisation cooked up by Pentagon is most likely some variation of SM3 with a glider or something on top. Gliders represent a very crude form of the hypersonic missiles, which S500 can solve as of 2018.

    This is not a true hypersonic , fully powered, maneuvering missile like zircon.

    Zircon is the result of decades of testing, of the Malakhit, Moskit, Granit, Vulcan, Onyx, missiles which quite simply the US never was able to catch up to, they rely on the subsonic Harpoon and Tomahawk for firing solution, they simply will not come up with even a supersonic anti ship missile for at least 20 more years.

    Zircon strength will be wave riding mach 9+ flight, with a steep dive several hundred kilometers from target, performing insane maneuvers, efficiently purging fuel from scramjet. Phalanx, Goalkeeper, SM3, SM6, RIM, all those such missiles will simply be unable to fix Zircon for firing solution.

    This missile has changed the course of naval warfare as we know it, the challenge to the psychology of the opposing sailors, will be immense. They cannot hide from lightning, and the worse part of this is, when Yasen is letting these rip from 1500km.

    The entire Japanese, Turkish, NATO navies can be decimated within minutes of firing.

    We have entered the stalkerzone of naval warfare.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:28 am


    Nice thumbsup

    Now put them on trucks... with more than 2 missiles per truck​

    Ships expensive, trucks cheap

    More missiles for money

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:53 am

    Papa Dragon, there is no doubt these missiles will be land based.

    But the role will be coastal anti ship.

    Zircon will really be felt at sea, where the only American IADS exists with need to be overcome, not by huge Naval aviation numbers, but by swarm of Zircon missiles, and for single ships, onyx or even X-35 is enough.

    For big strike groups, carrier aviation or even land based naval aviation is not required. Simply 1 salvo of 8 to 16 missiles will suffice to cause catastrophic damage to 1 CBG. So 2 project 22350, can destroy 1 out of 11 CBG, with 10 22350, you can destroy half worlds CBG, and with 5 yasen, forget about it, we are talking total sea denial, if not supremacy. 10 yasens , and then one understands why there is mention of revolution in naval warfare.

    The success rate of the launch based on physics, is nearly 100%, we can only add margin of error to potential failure of weapon system itself, because noone will have interception capability until 2040 at very least, when Russia exports S500.

    But undoubtedly, there will be BASTION SSC8 systems with zircon.

    But on land, noone has a SAM system to repel even elementary salvo of KH101, Kalibr, iskander, or kinzhal. Then you add SU35, SU57, lancet, S70, Orlan , and artillery and ground is basically covered.

    Most of those weapons can be saved for land use, while Zircon can be preserved for exclusive naval service.

    What will be extremely important will be commissioning of Admiral Nakhimov with 194 VLS.

    He can fight PACOM and EUCOM by himself, and with 1500km range, the limitation will only be food for the crew.

    This missile is a marvel of engineering

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:03 pm

    Yeah the time clock is ticking in deciding now or never getting Ukraine into NATO, meaning the U.S. would definetly want to send as much ships and subs as fast as possible before more subs and ships get equipped with zircons but the bigger fear is the subs which will take awhile it seems from holes source.
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    Podlodka77


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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:25 pm

    Zircons will replace foreign bases for Russia

    MOSCOW, January 18 - RIA Novosti. The presence of hypersonic Zircon missiles in Russia makes it unnecessary to deploy military infrastructure, in particular, in Latin America, believes Andrei Kartapolov, head of the State Duma Defense Committee. "In the presence of modern weapons, such as hypersonics, there is no longer such a need [to deploy Russian military bases in Cuba and Venezuela], because, being in one conditional point in the Atlantic Ocean, a ship armed with Zircon missiles is quite capable of fulfilling any tasks and immediately leave - it can be a surface ship or a submarine," he said, answering a relevant question on the air of the Solovyov.Live program.
    According to Kartapolov, the base is an "immovable object", which, on the one hand, carries a threat in itself, but is itself vulnerable."Therefore, I think there is no such need, and it is unlikely to be considered, but nothing can be ruled out in our world," he added.
    Earlier, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, speaking about the possibility of deploying Russia's military infrastructure in Cuba and Venezuela, said he did not want to confirm or exclude anything. US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, in turn, noted that the United States will give a "decisive answer" if Russia deploys its troops in Latin America.

    https://ria.ru/20220118/tsirkon-1768344100.html

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:41 pm

    Don't agree with that at all. Eyeball to eyeball is the best way to deal with these guys. You need a presence and missiles like the Tsirkons would not do it. You need ships and bombers.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:19 am

    Maybe land-based Tsirkons in Cuba would get some attention... unshaven
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:24 am

    Never would think that Mir is a warmonger Shocked Very Happy Laughing Very Happy Wink

    With USKS on shore, you are just wasting a good potential of a sub that can be parked in the Potomac, if needed.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:38 am

    Hole wrote:Maybe land-based Tsirkons in Cuba would get some attention... unshaven

    They will indeed! But definitely not from Russian soil.
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:43 am

    And why not, when a tasty London is just out there? Laughing
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:01 am

    For me even Cuba is too far! Mexico and Alaska should be annexed next!
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:26 am

    Warmongers, warmongers everywhere! Shocked Laughing Laughing Wink

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:05 am

    Mir wrote:Don't agree with that at all. Eyeball to eyeball is the best way to deal with these guys. You need a presence and missiles like the Tsirkons would not do it. You need ships and bombers.

    Besides that, there are other strategic systems (other than Zircon) that could be deployed that could make a serious impact: Murmansk-BM, Paladin, Tirada-2, Kalibr-M/Kh-101, S-350/400/500/550, etc.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:23 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mir wrote:Don't agree with that at all. Eyeball to eyeball is the best way to deal with these guys. You need a presence and missiles like the Tsirkons would not do it. You need ships and bombers.

    Besides that, there are other strategic systems (other than Zircon) that could be deployed that could make a serious impact: Murmansk-BM, Paladin, Tirada-2, Kalibr-M/Kh-101, S-350/400/500/550, etc.

    My friends, sometimes I have a feeling, that you really need a history lesson with extended context dunno
    As I am not a historian - while we have some folks here who are great in that - I will try to put my small brick in this wall.

    Tsarist Russia has not sold Alaska because it needed those pennies they were supposed to receive.
    They did that because when a factoria&village they had there was overwhelmed by the natives, with all the staff killed or hostage, it took them a YEAR to acknowledge, and THREE YEARS to mount&perform a punitive operation.
    This represented a humiliation to the regime and prestige of the crown, that could not be handled or accepted.
    As Alaska was a profitable place - the furs they brought from there equaled 10x the expenses, the political & image cost was unacceptable.

    Any base so far away from the supply&reinforcement chain is easy prey. Building one, you REALLY need a serious cause. If you can switch it to any other stike asset that is much easier to operate, release, withdrawn etc ... there is no better option.

    And I will tell you one more thing. Most of the US bases are easy to overwhelm, just the same way that Russian factoria in Alaska used to be, 300 years ago. Iranians just proved that, without even sweating themselves. The only thing left after the US bases, will be a hole in a ground, if anyone will consider it worth to hit.

    Welcome to the XXIc ...

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:23 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:Zircons will replace foreign bases for Russia

    MOSCOW, January 18 - RIA Novosti. The presence of hypersonic Zircon missiles in Russia makes it unnecessary to deploy military infrastructure, in particular, in Latin America, believes Andrei Kartapolov, head of the State Duma Defense Committee. "In the presence of modern weapons, such as hypersonics, there is no longer such a need [to deploy Russian military bases in Cuba and Venezuela], because, being in one conditional point in the Atlantic Ocean, a ship armed with Zircon missiles is quite capable of fulfilling any tasks and immediately leave - it can be a surface ship or a submarine," he said, answering a relevant question on the air of the Solovyov.Live program.
    According to Kartapolov, the base is an "immovable object", which, on the one hand, carries a threat in itself, but is itself vulnerable."Therefore, I think there is no such need, and it is unlikely to be considered, but nothing can be ruled out in our world," he added.
    Earlier, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, speaking about the possibility of deploying Russia's military infrastructure in Cuba and Venezuela, said he did not want to confirm or exclude anything. US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, in turn, noted that the United States will give a "decisive answer" if Russia deploys its troops in Latin America.

    https://ria.ru/20220118/tsirkon-1768344100.html
    Exactly, we have been saying this for a while. Much more flexibility, much less costs and political investment and much less vulnerability than fixed bases. Just producing many more SSNs is what Russia needs, better even if they are small and better even if they are unmanned, much cheaper and fast to produce. Put them to roam for some years around US coast, jumping from one location to another and staying quiet in the meantime.

    Having a naval base in say Venezuela to have a good & quick access to the southern Atlantic & Caribbean and dispute regional dominance with US is another thing, though, and it may pay itself due to other reasons, not necessarily to bring weapons to the US doorstep.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:08 pm

    Russia should not try to replicate the west and build military bases around the world, what they should do is create trade and political ties that mean they can lease ports to support operations great distances from Russia for long periods of time using the resources of other countries to sweeten the deal.

    I mean buy local food and materials... water and fuel and other such things instead of shipping it all from Russia, so the locals earn good money with your presence there too.

    Of course the west what it is also be prepared to leave quickly too, because despite the deaths and damage and costs to countries the west reaches for the regime change option very quickly these days when things don't go their way.

    This is not about military expansion, this is about trade expansion, which because of western attitudes and sanctions requires a military force to make sure it can work unmolested.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:59 pm

    Mir wrote:For me even Cuba is too far! Mexico and Alaska should be annexed next!

    Why stop with Alaska? Go for Canada! It´s a northern country like Russia. Very Happy

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:19 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Why stop with Alaska? Go for Canada! It´s a northern country like Russia. Very Happy

    Hold your horses - we'll have to respect China's wishes! Twisted Evil Laughing

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:21 pm

    China can get Australia.
    It is even better than Canada, as has no French!

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:40 pm

    ALAMO wrote:China can get Australia.
    It is even better than Canada, as has no French!

    I thought it was already Chinese!?
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    Post  Hole Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 am

    We´re off-topic. pwnd
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    limb


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    Post  limb Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:56 am

    What's the terminal guidance mechanism of the 3M22. Is it possible within physical laws for a hypersonic missile to have a usable IR seeker? Its intuitively impossible since the surface temperature of the missile and plasma cloud would interfere with the accuracy of the seeker. This is why you need supercooled seekers on AAMs afaik and why IR AAMs have shorter range because the supercooled seeker warms up.

    Would there be enough space in the zircon to house a powerful active radar antenna?
    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:07 am

    limb wrote:What's the terminal guidance mechanism of the 3M22. Is it possible within physical laws for a hypersonic missile to have a usable IR seeker? Its intuitively impossible since the surface temperature of the missile and plasma cloud would interfere with the accuracy of the seeker. This is why you need supercooled seekers on AAMs afaik and why IR AAMs  have shorter range because the supercooled seeker warms up.

    Would there be enough space in the zircon to house a powerful active radar antenna?

    Seekers(and not all) are cooled so that the imaging array can actually function, it's not about the thermal heating on the lens. The lenses on those AAMs are still thermally heated to a huge temperature, but that is ok because it's still thermally transparent at that those temps as designed, you can do the same with Zircon but it would be more difficult.
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    Post  Lennox Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:34 am

    limb wrote:What's the terminal guidance mechanism of the 3M22. Is it possible within physical laws for a hypersonic missile to have a usable IR seeker? Its intuitively impossible since the surface temperature of the missile and plasma cloud would interfere with the accuracy of the seeker. This is why you need supercooled seekers on AAMs afaik and why IR AAMs  have shorter range because the supercooled seeker warms up.

    Would there be enough space in the zircon to house a powerful active radar antenna?

    Waves from radar would be deflected by the plasma layer too. But I've read reports about using strong magnets to manipulate and create cavities in the plasma layer, making it possible for the zircon to use radar. Not sure about the IR seeker though
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:13 pm

    So many people think a heated lens makes IR sensors useless, but the lenses they use are transparent in the frequency that is being used.... so for eye glasses you would not use a wooden lens because that would block the light.

    Glass is used for lenses in this case because it is transparent to most visible light.

    Most IR sensors see heat, but to do that they are often having to have the heat sensitive element they use for detection cooled down to very low temperatures.

    Suggesting a lens heated to 2,000 degrees C wont work with a cooled IR sensor ignores the fact that even at room temperature the lens is already very hot compared to the temperature of the sensor itself.

    Heating the lens would be like heating the air... you can still see through it... it is a common error on the game War Thunder with vehicles using Thermal Imagers that have front mounted engines that often the heat coming off from the engine blinds the Thermal Imager.

    Unless the air itself is an actual flame it is not visible in a thermal imager... so there will be an IR plume of the hot exhaust tube but the hot air coming out would not form a screen or smokescreen blocking the view.

    It is likely that the nose of the Zircon is cooled to help it survive the very high temperature conditions of its dive from 40-50km altitude down to sea level on its target likely at mach 10 plus, but it would not take much to extend that cooling system to cool the lens window of an IIR system too.

    In fact the IR lens could be rather small and recessed into the skin of the missile so it is not subject to slip stream and therefore also not subject to friction heating.

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