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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:01 pm

    Arrow wrote: The US had no problems showing the X-51 and Russia still has a problem to even publish the appearance.

    Probably since the X-51 was a test vehicle and a poor performer that was soon abandoned, while Zirkon is a cutting-edge weapon system with impressive performance unmatched by any other AShMs and which will soon enter service and give Russia a huge qualitative edge.

    Good enough reason you reckon? Twisted Evil

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:27 am

    f so, then they do not have to hide Cirkon's appearance.

    They don't have to do anything.

    The US equivalent does not exist and at the moment the US really does not have a successful reliable hypersonic manouvering weapon like the Zircon... showing the real missile will immediately show the Americans the shape that works... why help them?

    Anyway, the USA in its X-51 also used it.

    The Space shuttle is much faster than Zircon... the point is that different shapes require different levels of propulsion... they could make a brick hypersonic simply by attaching a minuteman rocket to the back of it, but it does not make it an effective weapon because the shape of the brick is not efficient and aerodynamic and will rapidly slow down... or actually shatter at such speeds.

    The Zircon uses a shape that allows the scramjet motor they are using to maintain speeds and altitudes not attained by air breathing jets before... and there is no advantage to Russia to reveal that shape or design any time soon.

    So I don't know what they would find out if Russia presented Cirkon's appearance?

    When the US revealed the shape for the US Space shuttle they revealed a design that could be made at that time that that level of technology and materials... they spent over 2 billion dollars refining the shape specifically for the use as a glider. The Soviets could then adapt the design to their needs without spending 5 years and 2 billion dollars working out a useful design shape for that job... which happened to be very similar but not the same.

    When the Soviets revealed a mach 3 fighter in the form of the MiG-25 and the US needed an equivalent really quickly... the US came up with a copy... the F-15... same layout and general planform. What the west didn't realise is that the MiG-25 was an interceptor and not a fighter, but that is another discussion.

    At the end of WWII the Soviets found they had no four engined strategic bombers... they were leaders in bomber technology before the war, they had several four engined bombers like the old 1933 TB-3 and the more modern Pe-8, but there was no funding or development of any four engined bombers during the war because that is not what they needed. The end of the war arrives and they need a new four engined bomber and three land on their territory... what do you think they will do?

    More important are the materials it is made of, the details of the propulsion, etc.

    Of course they are important, but with the wrong shape even the best materials and propulsion mean nothing... you can make an An-2 out of heat resistant Aluminium alloy and fit a scramjet motor but it will never break the sound barrier...

    The US had no problems showing the X-51 and Russia still has a problem to even publish the appearance.

    Because they are behind in the technology, the design of this particular weapon is not secret but how many other missiles do they have they don't mention?

    Obviously if they had other missiles that worked we would hear about them and be told the Zircon is a copy of them, but that does not mean that better shapes have not been tested in the US or elsewhere.

    Probably since the X-51 was a test vehicle and a poor performer that was soon abandoned, while Zirkon is a cutting-edge weapon system with impressive performance unmatched by any other AShMs and which will soon enter service and give Russia a huge qualitative edge.

    Good enough reason you reckon?

    A huge factor is that Zircon is a weapon designed to fit into a launch system that is currently being deployed now. X-51 was a test vehicle.

    Once it has cleared its tests any ship or sub using UKSK launch tubes being new or upgraded old, and carry and use this weapon against land and sea targets.

    Talk about a force multiplier.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:59 pm

    Shoigu called the end of the tests of the hypersonic missile "Zircon"

    Tests of the Zircon hypersonic missile will be completed in 2021. The head of the military department Sergei Shoigu announced this at the collegium of the Ministry of Defense.

    The minister mentioned "Zircon" when he announced plans to test new weapons, which will take place before the end of this year in the North navy... According to Shoigu, a total of 79 samples of military equipment are planned to be tested, including 13 ships and vessels, as well as 4 nuclear submarines.

    The head of the Ministry of Defense confirmed that the hypersonic "Zircon" will go into service with nuclear submarines and surface ships of the far sea zone. The minister did not say anything about the start of serial deliveries.

    Earlier it became known that the state tests of "Zircon" will begin in early summer and will take place in parallel with the surface and underwater carriers. Flight design tests of the rocket from a surface launch vehicle were completed last year.

    In early March, data appeared that the Ministry of Defense intends to accelerate the Zircon test program with the aim of adopting the missile into service in the first half of 2022. The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" and the multipurpose submarine of project 885 (code "Ash") "Severodvinsk" will take part in the tests.

    The first official submarine carrier of the Zircons, according to sources in the defense industry complex, will be the Project 885M Yasen-M nuclear submarine Perm.

    https://en.topwar.ru/182199-shojgu-nazval-sroki-okonchanija-ispytanij-giperzvukovoj-rakety-cirkon.html

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:23 am

    Some clues about how Tsirkon and Kinzhal might be guided:

    https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis-photo-report-aviation-defence-industry/aviation-defence-industry-technology/7145-russia-designs-liana-space-intelligence-and-guidance-system.html
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    Post  Arrow Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:33 am

    How Liana detects submarines? The physics of detecting a submarine is very limited, especially from orbit it is impossible.What part of the world's oceans can Russia control through Liania's systems?
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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:37 pm

    Maybe the mean when they surface. Also when they are travelling closer the surface or at high speed they cause discoloration of the water which can be detected. Then there is infrared emissions. A nuclear sub moving underwater emits a LOT of heat. which will rise to the surface, especially in a cold ocean.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 7:16 am

    Actually different layers of water are different temperatures and a submarine moving stirs things up... a moving submarine even deep under water can create an IR trail that can be seen from orbit.

    Different radar frequencies also have different properties in terms of penetrating water and also ground penetration...

    But in terms of Hypersonic anti ship missiles being able to track submarines is kinda irrelevant... they couldn't reach a submerged submarine.

    More likely they were talking about the Liana satellites communicating with Russian submarines to send the target data so they can use their own hypseronic missiles against surfaced ships beyond the range of the subs sensors... but within range of their 1,000km range missiles.

    Ultra low frequency radio is used to communicate with submerged submarines.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sat May 01, 2021 8:32 am

    Supposedly even submerged quite deep submarines push the surface of the water above them to some barely noticeable level. So you'd have something like a silhouette or a patch of water that's say a couple of inches taller than the surroundings if the water is perfectly still. Of course there are waves that make it even more hard to detect but its possible that with increased granularity of modern sensors it could be done even with that bit of complication.
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    Post  Arrow Sat May 01, 2021 8:59 am

    GarryB wrote:Actually different layers of water are different temperatures and a submarine moving stirs things up... a moving submarine even deep under water can create an IR trail that can be seen from orbit.

    GarryB Infrared radiation propagates very poorly in water. It is physically impossible to detect a submarine from orbit in the IR range. Even other surface and submarines are unable to detect submarines in the IR. Unless from very close distances. If it were a good method, apart from sonars, each ship would have IR sensors as in the case of aviation. Detecting a submarine from orbit via IR is a fairy tale. You can't fool physics.

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