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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:01 pm

    Arrow wrote: The US had no problems showing the X-51 and Russia still has a problem to even publish the appearance.

    Probably since the X-51 was a test vehicle and a poor performer that was soon abandoned, while Zirkon is a cutting-edge weapon system with impressive performance unmatched by any other AShMs and which will soon enter service and give Russia a huge qualitative edge.

    Good enough reason you reckon? Twisted Evil

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:27 am

    f so, then they do not have to hide Cirkon's appearance.

    They don't have to do anything.

    The US equivalent does not exist and at the moment the US really does not have a successful reliable hypersonic manouvering weapon like the Zircon... showing the real missile will immediately show the Americans the shape that works... why help them?

    Anyway, the USA in its X-51 also used it.

    The Space shuttle is much faster than Zircon... the point is that different shapes require different levels of propulsion... they could make a brick hypersonic simply by attaching a minuteman rocket to the back of it, but it does not make it an effective weapon because the shape of the brick is not efficient and aerodynamic and will rapidly slow down... or actually shatter at such speeds.

    The Zircon uses a shape that allows the scramjet motor they are using to maintain speeds and altitudes not attained by air breathing jets before... and there is no advantage to Russia to reveal that shape or design any time soon.

    So I don't know what they would find out if Russia presented Cirkon's appearance?

    When the US revealed the shape for the US Space shuttle they revealed a design that could be made at that time that that level of technology and materials... they spent over 2 billion dollars refining the shape specifically for the use as a glider. The Soviets could then adapt the design to their needs without spending 5 years and 2 billion dollars working out a useful design shape for that job... which happened to be very similar but not the same.

    When the Soviets revealed a mach 3 fighter in the form of the MiG-25 and the US needed an equivalent really quickly... the US came up with a copy... the F-15... same layout and general planform. What the west didn't realise is that the MiG-25 was an interceptor and not a fighter, but that is another discussion.

    At the end of WWII the Soviets found they had no four engined strategic bombers... they were leaders in bomber technology before the war, they had several four engined bombers like the old 1933 TB-3 and the more modern Pe-8, but there was no funding or development of any four engined bombers during the war because that is not what they needed. The end of the war arrives and they need a new four engined bomber and three land on their territory... what do you think they will do?

    More important are the materials it is made of, the details of the propulsion, etc.

    Of course they are important, but with the wrong shape even the best materials and propulsion mean nothing... you can make an An-2 out of heat resistant Aluminium alloy and fit a scramjet motor but it will never break the sound barrier...

    The US had no problems showing the X-51 and Russia still has a problem to even publish the appearance.

    Because they are behind in the technology, the design of this particular weapon is not secret but how many other missiles do they have they don't mention?

    Obviously if they had other missiles that worked we would hear about them and be told the Zircon is a copy of them, but that does not mean that better shapes have not been tested in the US or elsewhere.

    Probably since the X-51 was a test vehicle and a poor performer that was soon abandoned, while Zirkon is a cutting-edge weapon system with impressive performance unmatched by any other AShMs and which will soon enter service and give Russia a huge qualitative edge.

    Good enough reason you reckon?

    A huge factor is that Zircon is a weapon designed to fit into a launch system that is currently being deployed now. X-51 was a test vehicle.

    Once it has cleared its tests any ship or sub using UKSK launch tubes being new or upgraded old, and carry and use this weapon against land and sea targets.

    Talk about a force multiplier.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:59 pm

    Shoigu called the end of the tests of the hypersonic missile "Zircon"

    Tests of the Zircon hypersonic missile will be completed in 2021. The head of the military department Sergei Shoigu announced this at the collegium of the Ministry of Defense.

    The minister mentioned "Zircon" when he announced plans to test new weapons, which will take place before the end of this year in the North navy... According to Shoigu, a total of 79 samples of military equipment are planned to be tested, including 13 ships and vessels, as well as 4 nuclear submarines.

    The head of the Ministry of Defense confirmed that the hypersonic "Zircon" will go into service with nuclear submarines and surface ships of the far sea zone. The minister did not say anything about the start of serial deliveries.

    Earlier it became known that the state tests of "Zircon" will begin in early summer and will take place in parallel with the surface and underwater carriers. Flight design tests of the rocket from a surface launch vehicle were completed last year.

    In early March, data appeared that the Ministry of Defense intends to accelerate the Zircon test program with the aim of adopting the missile into service in the first half of 2022. The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" and the multipurpose submarine of project 885 (code "Ash") "Severodvinsk" will take part in the tests.

    The first official submarine carrier of the Zircons, according to sources in the defense industry complex, will be the Project 885M Yasen-M nuclear submarine Perm.

    https://en.topwar.ru/182199-shojgu-nazval-sroki-okonchanija-ispytanij-giperzvukovoj-rakety-cirkon.html

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:23 am

    Some clues about how Tsirkon and Kinzhal might be guided:

    https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis-photo-report-aviation-defence-industry/aviation-defence-industry-technology/7145-russia-designs-liana-space-intelligence-and-guidance-system.html
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    Post  Arrow Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:33 am

    How Liana detects submarines? The physics of detecting a submarine is very limited, especially from orbit it is impossible.What part of the world's oceans can Russia control through Liania's systems?
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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:37 pm

    Maybe the mean when they surface. Also when they are travelling closer the surface or at high speed they cause discoloration of the water which can be detected. Then there is infrared emissions. A nuclear sub moving underwater emits a LOT of heat. which will rise to the surface, especially in a cold ocean.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 7:16 am

    Actually different layers of water are different temperatures and a submarine moving stirs things up... a moving submarine even deep under water can create an IR trail that can be seen from orbit.

    Different radar frequencies also have different properties in terms of penetrating water and also ground penetration...

    But in terms of Hypersonic anti ship missiles being able to track submarines is kinda irrelevant... they couldn't reach a submerged submarine.

    More likely they were talking about the Liana satellites communicating with Russian submarines to send the target data so they can use their own hypseronic missiles against surfaced ships beyond the range of the subs sensors... but within range of their 1,000km range missiles.

    Ultra low frequency radio is used to communicate with submerged submarines.
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    Post  lyle6 Sat May 01, 2021 8:32 am

    Supposedly even submerged quite deep submarines push the surface of the water above them to some barely noticeable level. So you'd have something like a silhouette or a patch of water that's say a couple of inches taller than the surroundings if the water is perfectly still. Of course there are waves that make it even more hard to detect but its possible that with increased granularity of modern sensors it could be done even with that bit of complication.
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    Post  Arrow Sat May 01, 2021 8:59 am

    GarryB wrote:Actually different layers of water are different temperatures and a submarine moving stirs things up... a moving submarine even deep under water can create an IR trail that can be seen from orbit.

    GarryB Infrared radiation propagates very poorly in water. It is physically impossible to detect a submarine from orbit in the IR range. Even other surface and submarines are unable to detect submarines in the IR. Unless from very close distances. If it were a good method, apart from sonars, each ship would have IR sensors as in the case of aviation. Detecting a submarine from orbit via IR is a fairy tale. You can't fool physics.
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    Post  mnztr Tue May 11, 2021 4:28 am

    Arrow wrote:

    GarryB Infrared radiation propagates very poorly in water. It is physically impossible to detect a submarine from orbit in the IR range. Even other surface and submarines are unable to detect submarines in the IR. Unless from very close distances. If it were a good method, apart from sonars, each ship would have IR sensors as in the case of aviation. Detecting a submarine from orbit via IR is a fairy tale. You can't fool physics.

    Its the churn of the sub moving and the heat it emits rising to the top that causes the trail. Even if the sub mixes a ton of water with the exhaust water it still rises to the top and the movement causes turbulance. This causes a temp difference on the surface unless the sub is really deep and moving very slowly. This cannot be done in all conditions of course. In storms and high wind subs are much harder to find.
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 11, 2021 7:29 am

    GarryB Infrared radiation propagates very poorly in water.

    Yeah... when I boil a pot of tea I always find the water in the top of the pot is cold and the water at the bottom is hot so I pour the top few cms of water into the sink and then use the boiling water in the bottom of the kettle to make my cup of tea.... Razz

    Water stratifies in temperature and salinity, and the coldest water does not necessarily sink to the bottom.... there are convection currents in water... both horizontal and vertical, but there is an enormous volume of actual water there... it would be like trying to use the element from a kettle to heat an olympic swimming pool...

    Which would be about as much use as trying to empty said pool by pulling out a normal sized plug you would use in a normal sized bathtub.

    There are three popular bands of IR being used these days... long, medium, and short wave IR and in the long and medium wave frequencies water and glass essentially block your view, but short wave IR is different and can see through glass and into water.

    It is physically impossible to detect a submarine from orbit in the IR range.

    It is physically possible to detect if someone has recently walked across a field of grass dude... you can look at a parking lot and tell which cars have recently been running and which have not been run in a long time.

    Even other surface and submarines are unable to detect submarines in the IR.

    Detecting the wakes of submarines under the water is easier from a distance... ie in the air.

    If it were a good method, apart from sonars, each ship would have IR sensors as in the case of aviation.

    Look at the masts of all the new Russian ships and you will see lots of new optronic posts with TV and IR sights... including laser range finders and other equipment.

    Detecting a submarine from orbit via IR is a fairy tale. You can't fool physics.

    In many places the sea water is not opaque and you can visibly see submarines... remember even the latest American subs can't go much deeper than 300m... that is not even three submarines length deep.

    If the water is not too dirty you could probably see them from patrol aircraft using binoculars.

    But honestly... why do you think this matters?

    This thread is about Zircon... WTF use would Zircon be against an enemy submarine FFS.

    Now new radars using photonic radar technology operating in the Terahertz frequencies might be able to detect and track submarines from space... who knows...
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    Post  LMFS Fri May 14, 2021 1:43 pm

    Admiral Gorshkov to conduct final tests of Zircon missiles

    The lead frigate of the Northern Fleet's Project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" went toSeverodvinsk, where it will conduct the final test launches of hypersonic missiles "Zircon", told reporters on Wednesday in the press service of the Northern Fleet.
    According to the fleet, after participating in festive events inMurmansk, dedicated to the 76th anniversary of the Victory, the ship began the inter-base transition to Severodvinsk.
    "In Severodvinsk, the ship will take part in the final stages of testing advanced missile weapons," the fleet's press service said.

    https://ria.ru/20210512/rakety-1732016988.html

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    Post  mnztr Sat May 15, 2021 1:59 am

    So far is do not see any air launch tests of tsirkon. this variant will probably be the simplest as its just a dead drop.
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    Post  Isos Sat May 15, 2021 12:23 pm

    mnztr wrote:So far is do not see any air launch tests of tsirkon. this variant will probably be the simplest as its just a dead drop.

    They have other hypersonic missiles for planes. I doubt there will be an air launched version of Tzirkon.

    Being launched from UKSK means it's a huge missile with a big booster which isn't needed when launched from the air.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 15, 2021 1:54 pm

    Zircon is a replacement for Onyx... they talked about mini Onyx missiles for reduced range increased speed roles, where aircraft like the Su-27 Flanker family could carry one Onyx, they would be able to carry five mini Onyx missiles, and smaller aircraft like the MiG-29 family of new planes could carry four smaller missiles too.

    It is not really a huge priority, but it will be under development.

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    Post  Arrow Mon May 17, 2021 8:47 am

    https://ria.ru/20210516/tsirkon-1732557689.html

    Once they write that the Cirkon tests will start soon and then that at the end of the summer .WTF Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon May 17, 2021 11:18 am

    Arrow wrote:https://ria.ru/20210516/tsirkon-1732557689.html

    Once they write that the Cirkon tests will start soon and then that at the end of the summer .WTF Rolling Eyes

    They mean the end of their summer... so around Aug-Sep. Yeah, that counts as soon in the scheme of things.
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    Post  Arrow Mon May 17, 2021 11:30 am

    Recently, they wrote that the frigate 22350 sailed to Severodvinsk to load Cirkon for another test. Three months will load the missile? Laughing
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    Post  LMFS Mon May 17, 2021 12:00 pm

    They will say what they want when they want. Ask your money back if you don't like it Rolling Eyes

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    Post  dino00 Mon May 17, 2021 3:11 pm

    "Tests of the missile system with a surface-launched Zircon hypersonic missile are scheduled to be completed by the end of summer"

    The next Zirkon test will be on the next days

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    Post  GarryB Tue May 18, 2021 4:09 am

    Completed by the end of summer... so they will have done all the launches they want to do before clearing the weapon available for operational use before the end of this year... sounds pretty good to me.

    Now to be clear the surface and sub launched roles are the critical ones... the air launched ones being less important because they already have Kinzhal and MiG-31Ks and Tu-22M3s with Kh-32s operational at the moment... in fact they have Onyx in service so the introduction of Zircon is not that urgent really either...

    But it is a normal step forward in keeping Russia safe from the boogey men of the west.

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    Post  mnztr Tue May 18, 2021 5:30 am

    Imagine if they are able to launch Tsirkon from Poseidon..now THAT is an unstoppable weapon. US missile defence will not get an sleep for years!!!
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    Post  LMFS Thu May 20, 2021 11:48 am

    State tests of the Zircon hypersonic missile from the Admiral Gorshkov will begin in June

    According to the source, in total, as part of the state tests of the Zircon, four launches will have to be performed from the frigate.

    MOSCOW, May 20. /TASS/. State tests of the Zircon hypersonic missile from the Admiral Gorshkov frigate will begin in June. This was reported to TASS by two sources in the military-industrial complex.

    "The first launch of the Zircon as part of state tests from the Admiral Gorshkov frigate is planned to be completed in June," one of the agency's interlocutors said.

    According to another TASS source, a total of four launches will have to be performed from this frigate as part of the state tests of the Zircon.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11420093

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    Post  mnztr Thu May 20, 2021 5:42 pm

    So I am sure the USA is VERY curious about this missile. Will they park a satallite over the test range (or do they always have one parked) so they can measure its performance? Surely its kinda important for them to know if it works, range etc. And probably Russia WANTS them to know it works.
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    Post  Hole Thu May 20, 2021 11:29 pm

    You can´t park a satellite.

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