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The american navy is like a bunch of guys coming with knives to a gun-fight. And in the case of Russia these guns are assault rifles.
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3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile
Hole- Posts : 4666
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Arrow- Posts : 1020
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LMFS wrote:
I am not talking bout any kind of dominance, simply that Russia now has the same kind of "gun in your head" than US has by placing missiles close to Moscow and St. Petersburg, and in general by deploying NATO forces right up to the Russian border. Russia did not have such option before, due to geography. And in fact that gun is not even necessarily nuclear, but with a level of threat almost as high, because it can be delivered right in the decision centers of the country and other equally painful locations, within very few minutes and without the need of anything else than one sub lurking close the US. This is huge event for the escalation balance of both countries, not joking
LMFS, in order to use the 3M22 missiles on strategic targets in CONUS, the Yasen M ships must come very close to the US. They must be located approximately 200 km from the CONUS coastline to launch an attack. With a range of 3M22 over 1000 km, they can attack targets as deep as 800 km. Swimming right on the shores of the USA is very dangerous and risky. Especially with the vast majority of American submarines and surface ships in terms of quantity. Russia would need a few Yasen M on duty with CONUS. With such a small number of these ships, this is very problematic. Even if their 10 units are built. Russia must first of all secure its strategic forces and its maritime borders, operate in the Arctic, etc. In the case of the American IRBM in Europe, the matter is much easier. In addition, the IRBM will have a greater range of up to 4000 km, so it can attack targets in the interior of Russia. In the case of 3M22, it is only about 800 km inland.
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Arrow wrote:LMFS, in order to use the 3M22 missiles on strategic targets in CONUS, the Yasen M ships must come very close to the US. They must be located approximately 200 km from the CONUS coastline to launch an attack. With a range of 3M22 over 1000 km, they can attack targets as deep as 800 km. Swimming right on the shores of the USA is very dangerous and risky. Especially with the vast majority of American submarines and surface ships in terms of quantity. Russia would need a few Yasen M on duty with CONUS. With such a small number of these ships, this is very problematic. Even if their 10 units are built. Russia must first of all secure its strategic forces and its maritime borders, operate in the Arctic, etc. In the case of the American IRBM in Europe, the matter is much easier. In addition, the IRBM will have a greater range of up to 4000 km, so it can attack targets in the interior of Russia. In the case of 3M22, it is only about 800 km inland.
Several comments:
- No, the subs do not need to come close to the US. With >1000 km range they could essentially hit as far inland as Detroit approaching as close as you say. But the US has most of its bigger cities directly at sea or very close to it, so the sub could stay >500 km away from the continent and make it very difficult for USN to detect them. Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Norfolk, Miami (etc etc) on the East Coast, or most main cities in the West Coast too can be targeted, even from max range.
- There have been multiple examples of Russian subs coming very close to the US undetected, staying for long time in the Gulf of Mexico or taking pictures of USN bases.
- It is not just Yasens that count here, they are modernizing their existing SSN/SSGN for the task... and most of them are coming online exactly in the same years when Tsirkon will be made operational
- For such a mission, the risk of a crew is fully justified. Everybody understands that the sacrifice would be worth it, if they don't scape but stop a potentially disastrous aggression against Russia from happening. That is what makes it a valid deterrent
- Russia has their coast already exceedingly well protected, irrespective of having some subs periodically visiting US.
- In turn, the need to defend their shores from such difficult to detect and high level threat will force the US to spend resources that they will not be able to use for offensive actions and distract an increasing amount of attack subs and surface, ASW units for the task that they will not be able to deploy abroad. This is a completely new situation for them, used to be safely surrounded by two oceans and therefore isolated from any risk beyond an almost unthinkable full blown nuclear war.
- They also have ballistic missiles capable of attacking all of US, but this is a very far step in the escalation, and it has a clear meaning written all over it since that kind of long range ballistic missiles is typically nuclear.
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Russia has Grishas and Kilos to protect the coast. And soon UUV´s.
owais.usmani
owais.usmani- Posts : 858
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https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10830349
MOSCOW, March 4. / TASS /. The first test launch of the hypersonic Zircon from a submarine carrier - the Severodvinsk nuclear submarine of the Northern Fleet - will not be completed until June. This was reported to TASS by a high-ranking source in the military-industrial complex.
"The first test launch of Zircon from Severodvinsk may be performed at the earliest in June. There is no exact date for the start of tests yet," he said. Prior to that, test launches of the Zircon missiles were carried out from the surface carrier of these missiles - the frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov.
According to another TASS source, "a decision has been made to speed up the tests of the Zircons, which will now run in parallel with the surface and underwater carriers." "The frigate will fire twice during the year as part of flight design tests (LKI) and up to four times - in the framework of joint state tests. In parallel, in the summer, LKI Zircon will begin from a submarine. It is planned to carry out up to four launches, the first from the surface position. state tests will begin with Severodvinsk. In case of their success, it is planned to take Zircon into service with both types of carriers in the first half of 2022, "he said.
The Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya, where the Zircons were developed and produced, did not comment on the information of the sources.
Earlier, another TASS source said that the Zircon LKI program in 2020 was successfully and fully completed, three launches were carried out from the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, two at sea targets, and one at ground targets.
According to the source, the Zircon's flight range when working on ground targets will be about 1,500 km, on surface targets - a little less. Earlier it was supposed to take "Zircon" into service in 2023.
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Arrow- Posts : 1020
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1500km against ground targets is impressive. 
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http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-emerging-zircon.html
We went from 3 million sq km to more than 6 million to explore to avoid an attack into a ship, the amount of sea surface to avoid an attack to COIN is simply staggering (1000 miles line in the picture)
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hoom- Posts : 2294
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Except its not really.We went from 3 million sq km to more than 6 million to explore
The US/Nato control GIUK gap, Denmark straits, Bosphorus & with Korea/Japan the Tsushima straight, leaving only relatively few gaps through the Kuriles.
A Russian CM strike against continental US would either need to be pre-positioned in peace time without picking up a tail or smash through that close encirclement first.
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lyle6- Posts : 799
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hoom wrote:\
Except its not really.
The US/Nato control GIUK gap, Denmark straits, Bosphorus & with Korea/Japan the Tsushima straight, leaving only relatively few gaps through the Kuriles.
A Russian CM strike against continental US would either need to be pre-positioned in peace time without picking up a tail or smash through that close encirclement first.
In name only. In practice these chokepoints are well within range of Russian stand-off weaponry from inside their territory it makes not much sense to be physically present in these positions despite how defensible they are.
Hole- Posts : 4666
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The subs in Petropavlovsk only have the wide ocean in front of them and the Yassen-M is so quiet that the GIUK gap won´t stop them. A few well placed hypersonic or even cruise missiles would solve the problem of the GIUK gab.
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hoom wrote:A Russian CM strike against continental US would either need to be pre-positioned in peace time without picking up a tail or smash through that close encirclement first.We went from 3 million sq km to more than 6 million to explore
So the Kamchatka Peninsula doesn't exist in your reality? 
On top of that they have Kh-102's with 5,500km range. They can easily hit the CONUS from their own territory.
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hoom wrote:Except its not really.
The US/Nato control GIUK gap, Denmark straits, Bosphorus & with Korea/Japan the Tsushima straight, leaving only relatively few gaps through the Kuriles.
A Russian CM strike against continental US would either need to be pre-positioned in peace time without picking up a tail or smash through that close encirclement first.
Russian subs go essentially where they want, more the more numerous they are, that is why USN is ringing the alarms as of late in regards of the level of threat they are starting to represent. They have spent long periods of time close to the US territorial waters and certainly the idea VMF is pursuing is that US is never completely sure that there is no Russian sub close enough to their territory to retaliate immediately and unstoppably if their basic security interests are not respected. In certain situations not being sure a sub is there can be a problem in terms of deterring capacity, in this case it is a huge advantage since US will never be 100% sure they are not in the crosshairs.
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Not to mention Poseidon with its 20,000+ mile range....
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dino00- Posts : 1620
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Russian Navy frigate to test-launch Tsirkon hypersonic missiles in Barents Sea
After the combat exercises in the Barents Sea, the frigate will return to its home naval base of Severomorsk
https://tass.com/defense/1269929
After the combat exercises in the Barents Sea, the frigate will return to its home naval base of Severomorsk
https://tass.com/defense/1269929
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There is no Cirkon test. The crap frigate fired an Onyx missile.
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Arrow wrote:There is no Cirkon test. The crap frigate fired an Onyx missile.
Flight design tests of the newest Zircon hypersonic missile from a surface launch vehicle have been successfully completed - source.
According to the source, state tests will begin in the near future.
MOSCOW, March 25. / TASS /. Flight design tests (LKI) of the Zircon hypersonic missile from the surface carrier - the frigate "Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov" of the Northern Fleet - have been successfully completed, and state tests will begin in the near future. This was reported to TASS by a source in the military-industrial complex.
"LKI" Zircon "with the use of the frigate" Admiral Gorshkov "have been successfully completed. Four launches have been made. All missiles hit the" peg "(the center of the conditional circle into which the rocket should hit)," he said. According to him, the state tests of the Zircon from the frigate will begin approximately in May-June. "There will be several launches," he added.
Speaking about the upcoming tests of the Zircon from the submarine carrier - the nuclear submarine Severodvinsk - the interlocutor of the agency noted that at least two launches are planned for this year within the framework of LKI, and state tests will be carried out in 2022 with the subsequent adoption of the rocket for weapons.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10997625
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All tests being successful means that, for the interests of the US, Tsirkon is operational at all effects and needs to be considered before doing shit like those piracy acts US is increasingly engaging as of late...
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Hypersonic flew to "Perm": "Zircon" found an underwater carrier
The fifth submarine of the Yasen-M project will receive the first state-of-the-art missile systemSubmarines of the Yasen-M project will be routinely equipped with the Zircon hypersonic missile system, starting with the Perm nuclear submarine. This is the fifth submarine of the Yasen-M project in a series. The decision was made by the Ministry of Defense, it follows from the documents on the construction time available to Izvestia. "Perm", which received serial number 165 when it was laid, began to be built in 2016. But it has not yet been launched into the water. The four already built Yasen will receive these weapons at a later date.
https://iz.ru/1143914/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/giperzvuk-doletel-do-permi-tcirkonu-nashli-podvodnyi-nositel
The fifth submarine of the Yasen-M project will receive the first state-of-the-art missile systemSubmarines of the Yasen-M project will be routinely equipped with the Zircon hypersonic missile system, starting with the Perm nuclear submarine. This is the fifth submarine of the Yasen-M project in a series. The decision was made by the Ministry of Defense, it follows from the documents on the construction time available to Izvestia. "Perm", which received serial number 165 when it was laid, began to be built in 2016. But it has not yet been launched into the water. The four already built Yasen will receive these weapons at a later date.
https://iz.ru/1143914/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/giperzvuk-doletel-do-permi-tcirkonu-nashli-podvodnyi-nositel
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Arrow wrote:There is no Cirkon test. The crap frigate fired an Onyx missile.
Hilarious delusion. Anything that makes you chauvinist, hubris-filled wind bags afraid can't possibly exist.
GarryB- Posts : 31040
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Any video footage of the launch will be modified or edited to hide the shape of the Zircon missile, because being hypersonic its shape is a very important aspect of its design... there is no value in letting the west have a look at what shape works... let them spend money and work it out for themselves...
If there is video of the launch I would think either Onyx launch footage is used, or the launch is not shown clearly to hide the shape of the missile.
If there is video of the launch I would think either Onyx launch footage is used, or the launch is not shown clearly to hide the shape of the missile.
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lancelot- Posts : 476
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The fact is we simply do not know how Zircon looks like.
It might actually have a cylindrical shape like the Onyx.
Just look at the Kholod scramjet from the 1990s.
Just because we assume it would have a ramp intake like the X-51 it does not mean it is like this.
It might actually have a cylindrical shape like the Onyx.
Just look at the Kholod scramjet from the 1990s.
Just because we assume it would have a ramp intake like the X-51 it does not mean it is like this.
Arrow- Posts : 1020
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GarryB It was the last test of the week. It wasn't Cirkon, it was Onyx. There was no video material.
https://ria.ru/20210325/fregat-1602842255.html
https://ria.ru/20210325/fregat-1602842255.html
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We have only vague idea how the onyx or granit looks like.
There are only models shown on pictures, I haven't seen any photo of a real missile without nose protectors.
There are only models shown on pictures, I haven't seen any photo of a real missile without nose protectors.
GarryB- Posts : 31040
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GarryB It was the last test of the week. It wasn't Cirkon, it was Onyx. There was no video material.
You do understand they are improving the Onyx with new fuels and equipment and therefore need to test those upgrades too...
Testing T-90AM tanks does not mean they have cancelled the T-14....
We have only vague idea how the onyx or granit looks like.
There are images of Granit being loaded and fired and Onyx is what Yakhont is based on, which is used on ships and on land based launchers we see rather often...
Note both are ramjet powered missiles and have a nose cover that is ejected when launched, though Granit has an angled launch and ditches the nose cover as it is launched while the Onyx and Yakhont and Brahmos which all look rather the same launches vertically and then is rotated by side thruster rockets and then ejects its nose cover and then accelerates away towards the target under main rocket power... which accelerates the weapon and after it burns out the ramjet lights up and flys the missile to target.
The fact is we simply do not know how Zircon looks like.
It might actually have a cylindrical shape like the Onyx.
Just look at the Kholod scramjet from the 1990s.
Just because we assume it would have a ramp intake like the X-51 it does not mean it is like this.
We know that the scramjet intake is not round like the engine intake on a MiG-21 or Su-7 aircraft, because they tested such intakes in the past and they were clearly not suitable.
The flat intake would be easier to precisely control the airflow in flight but also the flat shape contributes to hypersonic lift for the missile to improve flight characteristics at very high speeds.
Aerodynamics are the same everywhere, so don't expect anything super radical and new...
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f so, then they do not have to hide Cirkon's appearance. Anyway, the USA in its X-51 also used it. So I don't know what they would find out if Russia presented Cirkon's appearance? More important are the materials it is made of, the details of the propulsion, etc. They will not find out from the appearance of the projectile. The US had no problems showing the X-51 and Russia still has a problem to even publish the appearance.
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