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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:57 am

    Three dimensional trajectories represented in two dimensions can look strange, but such extreme manouvering likely rendered the flight speed a fraction of what it started out as being likely actually making the warhead easier to intercept... not harder.
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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:20 am

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:53 am

    GarryB wrote:Three dimensional trajectories represented in two dimensions can look strange, but such extreme manouvering likely rendered the flight speed a fraction of what it started out as being likely actually making the warhead easier to intercept... not harder.

    I would imagine that it would need an engine the likes of which the world has never seen to pull a maneuver like that at hypersonic speeds.

    That thing could not be moving more than a couple of hundred metes per second at which point a quick thinking soldier with an Igla could shoot it down.

    I suppose it could be going supersonic if the photograph was taken from close to the target and the actual maneuver happened over a much longer distance than the photograph would have you believe, but even then I doubt it could be hypersonic.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:10 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    I would imagine that it would need an engine the likes of which the world has never seen to pull a maneuver like that at hypersonic speeds.

    That thing could not be moving more than a couple of hundred metes per second at which point a quick thinking soldier with an Igla could shoot it down.

    I suppose it could be going supersonic if the photograph was taken from close to the target and the actual maneuver happened over a much longer distance than the photograph would have you believe, but even then I doubt it could be hypersonic.

    It has no engine, you have no perception of how large the radius of those manuvers is, and it will probably be capable of 20-30G's. The illumination is from the heat of reentry so probably still more then MACH 5 ..

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:32 am

    It could remain heated for quite some time after it is subsonic.... the SR-71 had to orbit its landing airfield quite a few times to cool down before it landed otherwise its outer surface would be too hot for the ground crew...... being in the vacuum of space would probably cool the reentry vehicles down quite a bit so flash heating them with friction might scorch the outside but the insides would need to be kept neither hot nor cold for the nuclear warhead to function properly.

    I would imagine that it would need an engine the likes of which the world has never seen to pull a maneuver like that at hypersonic speeds.

    Older MARVs didn't have scramjets or ramjets for manouvering... have you never heard of a side thruster rocket motor?

    It allows the object to pull rather extreme manouvers... with enormous drag...

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Older MARVs didn't have scramjets or ramjets for manouvering... have you never heard of a side thruster rocket motor?

    It allows the object to pull rather extreme manouvers... with enormous drag...


    It allows for minor course corrections, not changes in direction.

    A spacecraft can use its thrusters to sychronise its orbit with another craft in a similar orbit, not change the direction of its orbit.


    It is very difficult to change the direction in which an extremely fast moving object is going, though making minor adjustments is easy, I find it hard to believe that a MARV could perform the maneuvers necessary to escape the maximum course correction of an ABM missile.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:13 pm

    Interesting interview from 2017. And mention of hypersonic missiles and scramjet engines.

    https://www.interfax.ru/interview/577399

    Interestingly, it was said that Russia has not yet refined the scramjet engines and has not solved the problems related to this drive.
    Then what is the power of the Zircon, which was already tested in 2017. Ramjet engines are not suitable for the speed of 8M Rolling Eyes

    The use of a ramjet (ramjet engine - IF), I think, is not entirely justified on military equipment. What is hypersonic direct-flow flight? This is the only motor that can reach speeds above 3 mach. In the co-current, the air flow enters the chamber at tremendous speed, where fuel is injected, and it must burn. But can you imagine what kind of process there is, there is continuous turbulence. When subsonic combustion, everything is in order there. And here it is not clear what is happening. A very complicated process. Of course, sooner or later, measures will be invented to level this flow, etc. But all this is very expensive. So far, we have not found a technical solution to this problem. wrote:
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:58 am

    It allows for minor course corrections, not changes in direction.

    A spacecraft can use its thrusters to sychronise its orbit with another craft in a similar orbit, not change the direction of its orbit.

    Why would the use of side thruster rocket motors for space craft be anything relevant or related to side thruster rocket motors for a reentry vehicle?

    You do know they are two totally different things right?

    They were used on both because they are the only options, but on spacecraft they are normally liquid propellent rocket motors because they needed throttle and thrust length control because they were manouvering rockets for fine control where wings and fins have no effect.

    For reentry vehicles they are radial solid rocket motors on a spinning reentry vehicle that can be fired sequentially as the rocket motor spins to the correct angle to perform a hard turn or a small adjustment.


    It is very difficult to change the direction in which an extremely fast moving object is going, though making minor adjustments is easy, I find it hard to believe that a MARV could perform the maneuvers necessary to escape the maximum course correction of an ABM missile.

    The aerodynamic shape of a reentry vehicle could be used to effect a turn, but Rockets had to initiate it by turning the reentry body that way.

    Hardly unique.... look at the Dragon ATGM... it used solid fuelled rockets for its entire flight to steer and keep moving forward in flight towards the target.

    Interestingly, it was said that Russia has not yet refined the scramjet engines and has not solved the problems related to this drive.

    They have been working on scramjet motors for decades... in 2017 they were clearly not ready to say how far they had come with scramjet motors.

    At the time the Americans were claiming the lead in this technology... now they are working hard to catch up... why admit in 2017 that Zircon is close to testing... it would only speed up the American programme and get them more funding....
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    Post  LMFS Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:20 am

    Source: Zircon hypersonic missile to be launched on new tests at 1,000 km

    The source clarified that "the missile should hit a naval shield imitating an enemy ship."

    MOSCOW, November 1. / TASS /. The Zircon hypersonic anti-ship missile will be launched at a range of about 1,000 km at a target imitating an enemy ship during the upcoming tests in November. This was reported to TASS by a source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to the plan of the November test launch, the "hypersonic" Zircon "should cover a distance of about 1,000 km. Shooting will be conducted from the board of the Northern Fleet frigate" Admiral Gorshkov ", - said the agency's source.

    The source clarified that "the missile should hit a sea shield imitating an enemy ship during testing."

    NPO Mashinostroyenia (part of the Tactical Missile Armament Corporation), which, according to media reports, is the developer of the missile, did not comment on the information provided by the sources to TASS.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/9884977

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    Post  Arrow Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:12 pm

    It will be a very interesting test. I wonder what the real range of Zircon is. In the event of an attack on land targets, it will be larger than in the anti-ship version. The range will be even greater if the HE 450 kg warheads are replaced with a tactical nuclear warhead, which is at least 4 times lighter.

    Can the Cirkon be launched from a 533mm torpedo tube?
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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:06 pm

    Could be tight. Maybe with some vaseline... Very Happy
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:46 pm

    Arrow wrote:It will be a very interesting test. I wonder what the real range of Zircon is. In the event of an attack on land targets, it will be larger than in the anti-ship version. The range will be even greater if the HE 450 kg warheads are replaced with a tactical nuclear warhead, which is at least 4 times lighter.

    Can the Cirkon be launched from a 533mm torpedo tube?

    If it can be launched from UKSK it can be launched from 533mm torpedo
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    Post  Isos Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:06 pm

    Not really. Oniks can be launched from uksk but not from 533mm tubes.

    Zirkon is more the size of oniks than kalibr.
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    Post  LMFS Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:37 pm

    I don't think the Tsirkon is leaving any free space in the UKSK at all and therefore it is substantially bigger than 533 mm

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    Post  mnztr Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:27 am

    Is there any news of the 1000km test? It was supposed to be carried out by now. At 1000 km flight time should be between 6-10 minutes. That is pretty mind blowing.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:00 am

    There was no test. There has not been and there is no NOTAM information. The question is where is Admiral Gorshkov now?
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    Post  dino00 Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:03 pm

    The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" conducted a test launch of the "Zircon" rocket in the White Sea

    The missile successfully hit the target at a distance of 450 km, the flight speed exceeded Mach 8


    The lead frigate of Project 22350, Admiral of the Soviet Union Fleet Gorshkov, fired another Zircon hypersonic cruise missile from the White Sea at a complex target position in the Barents sea.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10106611

    Against a naval target

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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:01 pm

    ^^That above video proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Tsirkon is no Oniks wannabe. thumbsup
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    Post  mnztr Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:48 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:^^That above video proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Tsirkon is no Oniks wannabe. thumbsup

    A missile fired at night into clouds? Coulda been fireworks for all we know. They are supposed to do a 1000KM test at some point. I am sure there are US planes sent to monitor the test and track the missile.
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:51 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:^^That above video proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Tsirkon is no Oniks wannabe. thumbsup

    A missile fired at night into clouds? Coulda been fireworks for all we know. They are supposed to do a 1000KM test at some point. I am sure there are US planes sent to monitor the test and track the missile.

    The path seems tp be the same as on the first video, start like oniks but goes upward.

    They would just wait the plane to land. However it's close to eastern europe were there are ground radars able to tack the launch. Weired they don't send the frigate more on the east, north of Russia were they can test it unnoticed.
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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:27 pm

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 22 Cirkon19
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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 22 Cirkon21

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    Post  PhSt Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:03 pm

    Weired they don't send the frigate more on the east, north of Russia were they can test it unnoticed.

    I was thinking the same thing, they could have conducted the test in the Kara sea where there is less NATO asset to spy on the missile launch
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:17 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    Weired they don't send the frigate more on the east, north of Russia were they can test it unnoticed.

    I was thinking the same thing, they could have conducted the test in the Kara sea where there is less NATO asset to spy on the missile launch

    Except they wanted them to notice! Razz  There is various methods (electro-magnetic opaque aerosol smoke machines, ECM, etc.) of disguising if they wanted to, but remember the March 2018 speech from VVP revealed that the Federation tested multitudes of different strategic weapons and HATO never knew about it...I wonder why? Wink
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:39 pm

    I doubt they want anyone to track all the test...

    It must be an issue with test equipment not being able to be moved that far rather than leting nato track the zirkon.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:13 pm

    Isos wrote:I doubt they want anyone to track all the test...

    It must be an issue with test equipment not being able to be moved that far rather than leting nato track the zirkon.
    But your missing the main point, when they didn't want them to track tests HATO didn't even know the test existed. When Buyan-M's fired Kalibr cruise missiles for the first time, the Pentagram had a public briefing to U.S. Congress where they embarrassedly admitted they couldn't track the Kalibr launches that originated from the Caspian Sea.

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