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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:01 am

    Kinzhal = 10 Ma burnout
    Zircon was to be 5-8Ma
    Yeah looking back at the start of the thread they were talking Mach 6-8 & 1000km range back then.
    The lower ~400km range came in later & there is an alternative 400nm (~750km) a bit later.

    why to complicate?
    Just trying to think of some alternative possibilities.
    A sizzler upgrade with hypersonic terminal stage would guarantee UKSK & 533mm torpedo tube compatibility unlike an Iskander basis.

    Russia: Look over there, an exotic air-breathing hypersonic scramjet waverider!
    US believing its own BS: Lol they don't have the tech to make that or money to be able to afford building those, no need to worry.
    Russia:
    US: WTFBBQ!

    If it is actually an air-breathing scramjet then all power to them, I'm just not sold on that until I see it.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:23 am

    hoom wrote:
    Kinzhal = 10 Ma burnout
    Zircon was to be 5-8Ma
    Yeah looking back at the start of the thread they were talking Mach 6-8 & 1000km range back then.
    The lower ~400km range came in later & there is an alternative 400nm (~750km) a bit later.

    why to complicate?
    Just trying to think of some alternative possibilities.
    A sizzler upgrade with hypersonic terminal stage would guarantee UKSK & 533mm torpedo tube compatibility unlike an Iskander basis.

    Russia: Look over there, an exotic air-breathing hypersonic scramjet waverider!
    US believing its own BS: Lol they don't have the tech to make that or money to be able to afford building those, no need to worry.
    Russia: <produces equivalent effect with simple, cheap existing rocket tech>
    US: WTFBBQ!

    If it is actually an air-breathing scramjet then all power to them, I'm just not sold on that until I see it.

    So what your saying is they spent all that time and money to do something they already had (Iskander-M)? You've must of forgot this was achieved around the same time Avantegard was being developed, which is also a another hypersonic maneuvering (powered) object. So you really don't think their's some science/technology sharing between the two systems? BTW bringing up the "existing rocket tech" is a red-herring.....Both Russia and the US planned on using a rocket booster first stage on their respective systems.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:11 am

    So what your saying is they spent all that time and money to do something they already had (Iskander-M)?
    I'm saying Russia has a long history of doing impressive things with relatively simple & unexpected methods vs the Westen high-tech complicated way.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:16 am

    Hole wrote:Maybe the air-launched version of Zirkon is the GZUR project. Question

    GZUR is  an  abbreviation from  "hypersonic missile"  .   Some time ago there was "lightweight Zircon" announced.
    Since GZUR  is to be airborne only that would make sense not to invest in 2 unrelated designs.  


    BTW GZUR range should be  ~1,500km. Similar to Kinzhal  ~1,300km, GZUR Ist phase 6-Ma, IInd phase 12-14 Ma AFAIK




    hoom wrote:
    So what your saying is they spent all that time and money to do something they already had (Iskander-M)?
    I'm saying Russia has a long history of doing impressive things with relatively simple & unexpected methods vs the Westen high-tech complicated way.

    there is a difference between a stopgap and perspective design. Kinzhal is stopgap till other will be tested and fielded. GZUR, Zircon are to me perspective ones.
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    Post  hoom Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:35 am

    Yes and to be fair the unexpected way is sometimes making a complicated high-tech thing equal or better than Western stuff.
    And thats happened pretty often in missiles.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:29 am

    But Grigorovich, Gorshkov, Gremy, Severodvinsk & Nakhimov all have the current UKSK which is same size as the ones on Buyan-M & 22800s.

    The only vessels so far with UKSK launch tubes are frigates or corvettes.

    I would assume the UKSK-M is to be fitted to subs and ships of destroyer displacement and heavier...

    As far as we know there hasn't even been any ships laid down with UKSK-M let alone any near service, Zirkon is supposed to be going into service this year.

    Could be assume that Kilo class subs have had UKSK launchers being coastal subs, while larger subs like Yasen would have the larger UKSK-M type launchers?

    If the naval missile Zirkon doesn'tfit the UKSK in service with the navy its hard to see that it can go into service -> logically if its going into service this year it must fit the existing UKSK including on 22800 & Buyan-M.

    Or they might be fitting it to upgraded ships and subs like Oscar II subs instead of Calibre/Klub/Onyx missiles. I mean what is the point of upgrading current vessels with Onyx that entered production in the mid 1990s when its replacement is just about to enter service?

    Equally, we have to ask ourselves, how long they have been planning this... I would expect this was not a spur of the moment thing... they have not just found out the size of the Zircon missile... they have been aware of it for some time... now of course their might be more than one Zircon missile... in fact there is certain to be a sub launched, a ship launched and an air launched version... previously the specs started at just over twice the speed of Onyx... so mach 5-6, but then we heard talk of mach 7-8, and now mach 9... I suspect... considering the Iskander is a mach 6-7 missile and Kinzhal is reportedly a mach 10 missile that the specs given are for an air launched version of the missile and the surface and subsurface launched model might have a speed of mach 6-7 with a range of 300-500km depending upon the flight profile.... we shall see...

    (that nose engine cropping up on artillery shells now!)

    that little engine launched with that missile to mach 5... and with the solid rocket boosters gone and the main body empty that little scramjet engine accelerates the whole mass to mach 6.5... gives you an idea about the potential of scramjet engines... they found the round air intake was too complex to model and manage in terms of controlling the air flow so the US model and presumably the Russian model use square intakes that are simpler and easier to model and control in flight.

    The big question is Do they have a ship able to launch it ? Uksk seems to be to small according to what they said for this one. That's why maybe they don't show any image.

    They don't really need ships of frigate and smaller size to carry it... it would normally be carried by larger vessels and long range subs...

    I would suspect for a while the only platforms carrying it will be Yasen and upgraded Oscar IIs... and then upgraded Kirovs and Slavas...

    The Russian leader also said that seven new multipurpose submarines would be handed over to the Russian Navy to protect the national interests of Russia two to three years earlier than the deadlines set by the state armaments program, and five surface ships of the far sea zone would be laid down in the near future.

    The Lada SSKs would count as multi purpose subs I guess...

    Mach 9 is a bit under the promised Mach 10 but better than the earlier statement of attaining Mach 7.

    The only missile promised to be mach 10 was Kinzhal... other missiles are much slower.... Kh-15 mach 5, Kh-32 mach 4.5, Onyx Mach 2.5, supersonic Club terminal phase Mach 2.9.... with the three fastest being rocket powered...

    1000km range is significantly longer than expected, does possibly indicate a big ballistic boost phase which could imply its Iskander based like Kinzhal (or actually outright a ship-launched Kinzhal) which then would mean it doesn't fit UKSK...

    Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos is rocket ramjet powered... Zircon is rocket scramjet powered... both require rocket boosters to get altitude and to speed where they can operate more efficiently...

    They said they are making a version of Zircon to fit the UKSK launcher... one assumes when that is ready all their platforms could carry Zircon, but for now they can simply use Onyx, which is currently good enough to scare the bejesus out of NATO.

    Kinzhal = 10 Ma burnout
    Zircon was to be 5-8Ma

    Indeed, Kinzhal is a rocket with a burnout that then manouvers and coasts and falls to the target... Zircon is a jet powered weapon that is powered to impact... specifically scramjet powered. (if it only had Ramjet propulsion it would not have taken this long... Moskit and Onyx are rocket ramjet powered missiles... as are Kh-31s and SA-6s...

    In fact if this all goes well we might see new SAMs and AAMs with scramjet propulsion too...

    Mach 9 and the range of 1000km fired from a ship, then an air launched model (like Kinzhal is to Iskander-M) would have greater speed and range. We saw Iskander-M fired from a ground launcher attain Mach 8 speed, and 500km range, but the air-launched version (Kinzhal) attain Mach 10 speed and 2000km range, we could see similar increase in characteristics.

    Well, probably much greater range with an air launched version, but likely not hugely greater speed... if you think about a fixed rocket motor accelerating an object and climbing for altitude it will reach a top speed limited by drag and air density etc etc... so any excess energy from the rocket motor is basically wasted... with a scramjet motor it can throttle back to avoid wasting energy trying to go faster than it is able so it can burn for longer to extend range if not increase speed by very much.

    The point of course is that the propulsion energy of the scramjet becomes more efficient as the fuel is burned up the missile gets lighter so the scramjet provides a higher and higher thrust to weight ratio as it gets closer to the target... with a rocket only propulsion it just coasts and is unpowered as it approaches the target.

    If it is actually an air-breathing scramjet then all power to them, I'm just not sold on that until I see it.

    Replaces a rocket/ramjet... they have been working on scramjets for some time now... you posted a prototype scramjet engine they tested in the 1990s on the nose of an SA-5 SAM...

    there is a difference between a stopgap and perspective design. Kinzhal is stopgap till other will be tested and fielded. GZUR, Zircon are to me perspective ones.

    Yes... Zircon is a planned for replacement for the Onyx, and the Gzur seems to me to be a replacement for the Kh-15...
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    Post  dino00 Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:34 am

    @GarryB:

    Equally, we have to ask ourselves, how long they have been planning this... I would expect this was not a spur of the moment thing... they have not just found out the size of the Zircon missile... they have been aware of it for some time... now of course their might be more than one Zircon missile... in fact there is certain to be a sub launched, a ship launched and an air launched version... previously the specs started at just over twice the speed of Onyx... so mach 5-6, but then we heard talk of mach 7-8, and now mach 9... I suspect... considering the Iskander is a mach 6-7 missile and Kinzhal is reportedly a mach 10 missile that the specs given are for an air launched version of the missile and the surface and subsurface launched model might have a speed of mach 6-7 with a range of 300-500km depending upon the flight profile.... we shall see...

    With all respect...obviously not.
    The specs that Putin presented were for the only Zirkon tested from ground launchers, about Mach 9, 1000km range+, the Russian and Americans sources talked about mack 8, Putin said Zirkon will be launched from submarine/Ship, the submarine version with probably less range.
    Putin, and the Russian and Americans sources couldnt talk about air launched Zirkon, because until now there isnt one.
    Best regards
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    Post  dino00 Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:59 am

    Zirkon fits in all the frigates/destroyers/ submarines launchers, they Will built mini Zirkon for karakut and buyan-m Corvettes.
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    Post  Hole Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:14 am

    What Russia does very well is splitting the development risks to different projects.

    The most difficulties with hypersonic objects are

    - control/stability of the missile in different phases of flight
    - control of the airflow in the ramjet or scramjet engine/mixing the fuel with the air and so on...
    - materials (heat!)

    With Kinzhal they took the Iskander (which is already close to hypersonic speed) and turned it into an air-launched weapon. No need for ramjet/scramjet because of the solid-fuel rocket engine and the material the missile is build of was already strong enough to withstand the heat. In the end they just had to figure out how to control/stabilise the missile in some phases of the flight (launch from a jet, end of the flight = maneuvering before hitting the target).

    With Avangard the materials were brought to the next level. New engine (scramjet?) was brought up to scratch. For the control/stability part they could fall back upon tests with Kinzhal (and vice versa) to fasten the develpment.

    Now that most or even all of the problems relating to hypersonic flight have been solved with Kinzhal and Avangard and Zirkon the speedy development of more weapons (air/missile defence, ATGM´s) should be "easy".
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:43 am

    The specs that Putin presented were for the only Zirkon tested from ground launchers, about Mach 9, 1000km range+, the Russian and Americans sources talked about mack 8, Putin said Zirkon will be launched from submarine/Ship, the submarine version with probably less range.
    Putin, and the Russian and Americans sources couldnt talk about air launched Zirkon, because until now there isnt one.
    Best regards

    There is a lot of margin with speeds... mach 1 can be 340m/s at sea level at moderate temperatures, or less than 290m/s at altitudes above 20km... this missile could operate at a range of altitudes but most of them will be high to maximise speed.... the Kh-22M could fly at 40km altitude to over fly the Standard 2 SAMs used by AEGIS class cruisers of the US navy for instance...

    In terms of range there is even more flexibility because this is not a rocket that burns rapidly and then coasts... this missile could throttle its power to cruise efficiently without wasting fuel and climb to an efficient altitude and speed for most of the flight distance and then either climb further and accelerate to a higher attack speed or change flight paths in many ways.

    BTW there would be no ground launcher testing of Zircon as that would have violated the INF treaty... Zircon would be a ship and sub only missile to begin with, but would have enormous potential for basing it on almost anything because it is clearly able to manage a surface launch with a respectable range.

    Cruise missiles are referred to as having 2,500km range but in practise its actual straight line to target would be shorter as it would fly at low altitude and follow rivers or lines of hills to evade defences or to attack from an unexpected direction...

    Zirkon fits in all the frigates/destroyers/ submarines launchers, they Will built mini Zirkon for karakut and buyan-m Corvettes.

    So are you suggesting that Zircon fits the UKSK launcher but small boats that use the container version need a special smaller model of Zircon?

    With Kinzhal they took the Iskander (which is already close to hypersonic speed) and turned it into an air-launched weapon. No need for ramjet/scramjet because of the solid-fuel rocket engine and the material the missile is build of was already strong enough to withstand the heat. In the end they just had to figure out how to control/stabilise the missile in some phases of the flight (launch from a jet, end of the flight = maneuvering before hitting the target).

    Actually the job is made easier because Iskander is not a FROG 7 type dumb ballistic rocket, it is a fully controlled missile that flies a path to the target intended to make it difficult to intercept and has terminal guidance to allow point targets to be engaged...

    A while back a member suggested a naval version of Iskander, which I poured cold water on because its range of 500km would limit its usefulness at sea and giving it greater range might step on a few toes as the US might suggest a longer ranged naval version could be retrofitted to a land based launcher and hence violation of INF treaty... of course now that is not really going to matter any more... and a 2-3,000km plus range semi ballistic missile with scramjet booster to extend range and boost manouver performance would be very interesting on land and at sea and in the air...

    With Avangard the materials were brought to the next level. New engine (scramjet?) was brought up to scratch. For the control/stability part they could fall back upon tests with Kinzhal (and vice versa) to fasten the develpment.

    Avangard is strategic, while Iskander and Kinzhal are tactical weapons... I suspect there was little real cooperation between the two makers... Kinzhal would only need minor modifications from the original Iskander because it was already designed to manouver and fly at mach 6-7 anyway...

    Now that most or even all of the problems relating to hypersonic flight have been solved with Kinzhal and Avangard and Zirkon the speedy development of more weapons (air/missile defence, ATGM´s) should be "easy".

    I am sure they have learned a lot and will continue to learn... hypersonic target practise will greatly improve their air defence teams and experience in defending against such attacks will make both attack and defence much better...
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    Post  dino00 Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:27 am



    Zirkon fits in all the frigates/destroyers/ submarines launchers, they Will built mini Zirkon for karakut and buyan-m Corvettes.

    GarryB:

    So are you suggesting that Zircon fits the UKSK launcher but small boats that use the container version need a special smaller model of Zircon?

    Yes.

    From the article from Izvestia about mini Zirkon:

    The Defense Ministry will receive a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic rocket. First of all, it should be equipped with small rocket ships (MRK) of the Karakurt and Buyan-M projects. Also, the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:58 pm

    dino00 wrote:

    Zirkon fits in all the frigates/destroyers/ submarines launchers, they Will built mini Zirkon for karakut and buyan-m Corvettes.

    GarryB:

    So are you suggesting that Zircon fits the UKSK launcher but small boats that use the container version need a special smaller model of Zircon?

    Yes.

    From the article from Izvestia about mini Zirkon:

    The Defense Ministry will receive a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic rocket. First of all, it should be equipped with small rocket ships (MRK) of the Karakurt and Buyan-M projects. Also, the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container


    This makes so sense

    All ships with UKSK launchers can use same missiles

    If it doesn't fit on Karakurts or Buyans it doesn't fit on anything else with UKSK, corvettes and frigates including
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    Post  dino00 Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:

    Zirkon fits in all the frigates/destroyers/ submarines launchers, they Will built mini Zirkon for karakut and buyan-m Corvettes.

    GarryB:

    So are you suggesting that Zircon fits the UKSK launcher but small boats that use the container version need a special smaller model of Zircon?

    Yes.

    From the article from Izvestia about mini Zirkon:

    The Defense Ministry will receive a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic rocket. First of all, it should be equipped with small rocket ships (MRK) of the Karakurt and Buyan-M projects. Also, the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container


    This makes so sense

    All ships with UKSK launchers can use same missiles

    If it doesn't fit on Karakurts or Buyans it doesn't fit on anything else with UKSK, corvettes and frigates including

    IT DOES FITT UKSK launchers where i say it doesnt??? The article from Izvestia says it does but its better from small ships to launch smaller missiles dunno

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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:29 pm

    Well no surprise. It's a new tech. It is hard to give the size they want as the size of the missile is a parameter for its speed, engines are first generation so they can't make them that small.

    Reducing the missile will probably reduce the range. I would upgrade udaloys with this one first as they already plan to upgrad them. And keep uksk with oniks untill a better smaller version fits inside.

    It took lot of years to make a small brahmos NG that has same caracteristics as brahmos but 2 times smaller. It will probably be the same with zirkon. During this time udaloy should carry the zirkon.

    Depends on its size, 650mm tubes may also launch it from the yasen.

    With mig-31 carrying kinzhal, udaloys carrying Zirkon, and all the other uksk ships carrying kalibr/oniks it more than enough to keep US away for the next 10-15 years.

    I also doubt they would buy as many zirkon as they have uksk cells.
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    Post  Hole Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:30 pm

    Izvestia is a piece of s...

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    Post  dino00 Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:04 pm

    Hole wrote:Izvestia is a piece of s...


    Disagree, i think they got better Over time. For me they are credible.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:10 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Mach 9 and the range of 1000km fired from a ship, then an air launched model (like Kinzhal is to Iskander-M) would have greater speed and range. We saw Iskander-M fired from a ground launcher attain Mach 8 speed, and 500km range, but the air-launched version (Kinzhal) attain Mach 10 speed and 2000km range, we could see similar increase in characteristics.
    It's not an Iskander. Please stop with this shite, all of you.

    Everywhere it's been ever mentioned the Zirkon is a cruise missile. One which surpassed it's designed speed last test.
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:51 pm

    Do we know the cruise altitude of the zirkon ?
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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:02 am

    flamming_python wrote:It's not an Iskander. Please stop with this shite, all of you.
    Well, the same way Brahmos was modified for air launch, Zirkon could be modified the same way, it makes military sense so why not? Even a baby-zircon has been mentioned, it would even help further to get a version light enough to be carried by a heavy fighter. Alternatively, a plane like Tu-22 could carry many of the full sized missiles for a much better range and speed than Kh-32. Why to develop additional missiles?
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    Post  LMFS Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:38 am

    Wow, apparently the missile will be capable of developing high speeds at low altitudes. Deployment estimated in 1-3 years:

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/iz.ru/848109/2019-02-20/voennyi-ekspert-nazval-sroki-postupleniia-rakety-tcirkon-v-voiska
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:29 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    This makes so sense

    All ships with UKSK launchers can use same missiles

    If it doesn't fit on Karakurts or Buyans it doesn't fit on anything else with UKSK, corvettes and frigates including



    pr "heavy" ships......Zircon in UKSK-M
    MKR's got................."lightweight". Zircon in UKSK?
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    Post  Austin Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:46 am

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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:39 am

    The Defense Ministry will receive a miniature version of the Zircon hypersonic rocket. First of all, it should be equipped with small rocket ships (MRK) of the Karakurt and Buyan-M projects. Also, the rocket will be adapted for launches from a special container

    Your logic makes sense... I agree....

    All ships with UKSK launchers can use same missiles

    If it doesn't fit on Karakurts or Buyans it doesn't fit on anything else with UKSK, corvettes and frigates including

    No... what he is saying is that some Russian ships that can carry these missiles don't have UKSK launchers.... they have space on the deck for a shipping crate for these sorts of missiles and it is these shipping crates that can't carry the Zircon missiles, so a new Zircon design is being developed for use in the shipping crate model design.

    A bit like the Brahmos fits on an Su-30MKI but they can only carry one so they made a smaller faster lighter Brahmos-NG model that can be carried under the wings of most fighters like the MiG-29 and even Mirage 2000 etc etc... and as an added bonus can also be carried by the Su-30MKI but it can carry two under each wing and another missile under the centreline... so it can carry 5 missiles of the new smaller type or one of the original.

    The newer type is also faster but I believe has a shorter range and smaller warhead... which is fine...

    If this is the case regarding the Zircon, that would mean the new missile could be carried on smaller fighters and large fighters could carry more missiles at one time... but the shipping containers would be ideal to attach to trains or put on trucks... you could make thousands of them and hide them in open sight... is it cargo or is it a deadly hypersonic missile able to target ground and sea targets...

    Do we know the cruise altitude of the zirkon ?

    Efficiently at a quite high altitude I suspect... that would also improve its safety as few fighters can engage targets at 30km or above altitudes... so it really only has to worry about major SAMs.

    Wow, apparently the missile will be capable of developing high speeds at low altitudes. Deployment estimated in 1-3 years:

    That would be fantastic... very few things operate at high speed at low altitude because of the thickness of the atmosphere... a Sidewinder missile might achieve 25km range and mach 2.5 speed at medium and high altitude launches, but at low altitude it will be much shorter range and much slower... in a monsoon its effective range for target detection might be 2km...

    pr "heavy" ships......Zircon in UKSK-M
    MKR's got................."lightweight". Zircon in UKSK?

    Or maybe there are three classes... frigates and corvettes have UKSK, some new boats don't have integral launchers and rely on shipping crate mounted missiles, and ships new build or upgraded bigger than Frigate have UKSK-M?

    The new smaller Zircon is for the small ships with no UKSK launcher that use shipping crates for such missiles... or the UKSK-M is to allow standard Zircons to be used which means new Zircon can fit all existing UKSK launchers fitted to smaller ships and subs, while the big new zircon will need to wait for bigger vessels to be launched/upgraded.

    Personally I think Dino is right and the new small Zircon is for the shipping crate mounted UKSK substitute setups...

    In which case a bigger UKSK-M might allow expanded and enlarged types of all missiles currently in development for new ships larger than Frigate... including S-500.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:52 am

    Well... a Russian vessel 400km from Washington launches a mach 9 missile... assuming mach 9 = about 320m/s, that means we have that missile covering 9 x 320m every second... which is works out at about 2.88km/s, so 400km would take roughly 140 seconds, which is about 2 and a half minutes... not very long at all...

    It could be on a shipping crate on a transport ship, a submarine, a corvette, or a cruiser...

    Hell, they could take a leaf out of Chinas book and build an artificial island there.... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:56 am

    GarryB wrote:Well... a Russian vessel 400km from Washington launches a mach 9 missile... assuming mach 9 = about 320m/s, that means we have that missile covering 9 x 320m every second... which is works out at about 2.88km/s, so 400km would take roughly 140 seconds, which is about 2 and a half minutes...  not very long at all...

    It could be on a shipping crate on a transport ship, a submarine, a corvette, or a cruiser...

    Hell, they could take a leaf out of Chinas book and build an artificial island there....  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    Mach 1 is 320m/s. Mach 9 is 3090 m/s

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