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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:41 am

    GarryB wrote:The engine in the SR-71 at its core is a turbojet but it allows air to bypass the turbojet engine.

    The turbojet is used to take off and for low speed flight but in flight at speeds faster than mach 2 it has very little air going through the turbojet engine... it is all bypass air acting as a scramjet.

    How do you know the new scramjets cannot operate with subsonic airflow as a ramjet?

    Ramjets and scramjets will operate at almost any forward speed and are very simple in terms of the number of parts they have.

    A rocket motor accelerates them to speed but it does not need to accelerate them to enormous speeds on a very long range weapon.

    Theoretically nothing prevents you to make any combination as you wish.
    However if you check the sr71 working then it the complexity of it is quite visible.

    A hybrid ram/scramjet should be as complex.

    Practically you can't test the scramjet in tunnel, all that you can have is fraction seconds test cycles from explosion like pressure waves.

    Means that to design a pure hypersonic engine is very expensive, needs rocket launches and so on, if it is combined with ramjet propulsion then the cost of development escalating on an exponential curve.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:23 am

    Ramjet : the engine has subsonic internal airflow, the compression done by the inertia of the incoming air. it works between 0,5-6 match, optimal speed is around 3.55-4 match. Outside of the optimal speed it become very inefficient.

    Refer to photo posted above of I-15 biplane with two ramjets that operated at well below mach 0.5 and generated enough thrust to overcome their own drag and weight and accelerate the aircraft to a higher flight speed than was otherwise able to manage.

    Efficiency is not important if it is only flying at that speed for a short while.

    Scramjet has supersonic internal airflow. upper speed is restricted only by the energy content of the fuel. Works above 2-4 match.

    A scramjet is a supersonic combustion ramjet. There is no reason a scramjet needs a supersonic airflow through it to operate... it could operate as a ramjet at lower speeds.

    4 to fly at sea level IF we consider the engine works at maximum power / pressure with 6 match / high altitude then the speed will drop to 2 match .(considering 20 times difference in air density )

    So then why does Moskit fly at mach 2.5 at high altitude and mach 1.8 at low altitude?

    Why also does the MiG-25 fly at Mach 2.83 at high altitude and 1,500km/h at sea level?


    A hybrid ram/scramjet should be as complex.

    Why?

    A scramjet is a type of ramjet that allows the fuel to burn at supersonic speeds inside the airflow of the combustion chamber of the engine.

    Practically you can't test the scramjet in tunnel, all that you can have is fraction seconds test cycles from explosion like pressure waves.

    The TSAGi have wind tunnels that operate up to mach 7, so why would they not be able to test scramjet engines in them?


    Means that to design a pure hypersonic engine is very expensive, needs rocket launches and so on, if it is combined with ramjet propulsion then the cost of development escalating on an exponential curve.

    No it does not... current missile designs will use the cavity where the scramjet engine burns fuel for solid rocket fuel because it only has to work once.

    For an aircraft conventional turbofan engines can be used to get the aircraft into the air and climbing... as it accelerates it can increase the bypass air ratio until all the air is bypassing the turbojet section and you have a ramjet... increase speed and burn fuel supersonically and you have a scramjet... and you can keep accelerating as fast as the heat resistance of your aircraft and power fo your engines allow.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:[
    Refer to photo posted above of I-15 biplane with two ramjets that operated at well below mach 0.5 and generated enough thrust to overcome their own drag and weight and accelerate the aircraft to a higher flight speed than was otherwise able to manage.

    Efficiency is not important if it is only flying at that speed for a short while.



    A scramjet is a supersonic combustion ramjet. There is no reason a scramjet needs a supersonic airflow through it to operate... it could operate as a ramjet at lower speeds.


    So then why does Moskit fly at mach 2.5 at high altitude and mach 1.8 at low altitude?

    Why also does the MiG-25 fly at Mach 2.83 at high altitude and 1,500km/h at sea level?



    Why?

    A scramjet is a type of ramjet that allows the fuel to burn at supersonic speeds inside the airflow of the combustion chamber of the engine.

    The TSAGi have wind tunnels that operate up to mach 7, so why would they not be able to test scramjet engines in them?


    No it does not... current missile designs will use the cavity where the scramjet engine burns fuel for solid rocket fuel because it only has to work once.

    For an aircraft conventional turbofan engines can be used to get the aircraft into the air and climbing... as it accelerates it can increase the bypass air ratio until all the air is bypassing the turbojet section and you have a ramjet... increase speed and burn fuel supersonically and you have a scramjet... and you can keep accelerating as fast as the heat resistance of your aircraft and power fo your engines allow.

    Generating measurable thrust doewn't means that it can fly it on its own, and it can fly to a usable distance.

    So in the case of the jet engine / ramjet the internal combustion environment stable in the engine, the moveable cone is in the supersonic airflow only, and it can adjusted to keep stable the internal flow dynamics.

    in the case of the scramjet the engine has supersonic airflow, means that if the external environment ( speed, density, temperature ) chance then the internal geometry fo the engine has to change as well.


    And now here is the problem, there are tunnels for 7 -20 match airspeed, but these are not continuous flow tunnels, but more of a gun type equipment ,that generating a millisecond long burst of hot combustion product that can test nozzle cones, wings and so on.

    BUT to test the scramjet you need continuous airflow through the eninge, with the same composition like the air. And to test in this environment you need to make an engine, and shoot it out on the top of a rocket.


    See?


    Due to this it is very expensive and complicated to make working hypersonic design for ONE mass flow/parameter group, if the system has to work in different conditions ( mass flow,pressure, temperature) then the cost and complexity increasing exponentially.

    If you want to marry together the whole product with a ramjet then it will have a 20-30 years development time and 13 digit cost in $.


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    Post  Azi on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:08 pm

    Garry is right! There is a scramjet operating at 200 mph. Technical there is no problem to operate a scramjet subsonic. But on the other hand a scramjet built for hypersonic speeds will simply not work in subsonic area, or with very poor thrust.

    That's what I meant with Zirkon, the Scramjet operates at supersonic speed. If it will work under Mach 1 the booster could be smaller or no booster would be needed. The Scramjet of Zirkon is optimized for hypersonic. So I was talking about Zirkon Scramjet, not about Scramjet general ;P ;D

    What you simply forget @Singular is that at low altitude...

    • Thrust is multiple times higher, than in high altitude.
    • cw value is from Mach 1 - 2 more uncomfortable, than above.
    • speed is going in to square, so a slightly speed reduction has great impact.
    • the range is really 1/3, due to higher fuel consumption.

    So it's really complicated! It's clear that at low altitude Zirkon is slower, but take a look at Garry's post! The Zirkon would not only be Mach 0,2 faster, than Moskit, if Zirkon has three times the speed of Moskit in high altitude!!! This makes no sense.

    At the end we will see in 1 or 2 years the real stats of Zirkon and not only speculation. Sleep
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:45 pm

    Azi wrote:Garry is right! There is a scramjet operating at 200 mph. Technical there is no problem to operate a scramjet subsonic. But on the other hand a scramjet built for hypersonic speeds will simply not work in subsonic area, or with very poor thrust.

    That's what I meant with Zirkon, the Scramjet operates at supersonic speed. If it will work under Mach 1 the booster could be smaller or no booster would be needed. The Scramjet of Zirkon is optimized for hypersonic. So I was talking about Zirkon Scramjet, not about Scramjet general ;P ;D

    What you simply forget @Singular is that at low altitude...

    • Thrust is multiple times higher, than in high altitude.
    • cw value is from Mach 1 - 2 more uncomfortable, than above.
    • speed is going in to square, so a slightly speed reduction has great impact.
    • the range is really 1/3, due to higher fuel consumption.

    So it's really complicated! It's clear that at low altitude Zirkon is slower, but take a look at Garry's post! The Zirkon would not only be Mach 0,2 faster, than Moskit, if Zirkon has three times the speed of Moskit in high altitude!!! This makes no sense.

    At the end we will see in 1 or 2 years the real stats of Zirkon and not only speculation. Sleep

    Ok ,so I checked a brahmos launch video on the youtube.

    The ejector launched the missile with 2g , by using the missile length as indicator.

    The booster accelerated the missile visible faster than the ejector,for 5 seconds.

    So the missile accelerated to 300 m/sec as bare minimum, but I think it is closer to 500 m/sec. ( 6 g vs 10 g acceleration )

    Means that the RAMJET start around this speed - if it can start at lower speed then they install bigger fuel tank and use smaller booster.

    The moskit optimised for low altitude, supersonic speed. It hasn't got variable air intake, means that in higher altitude the air mass flow insufficient to increase the speed of it.

    The granit/onyx has variable air intake, so they can fly any altitude .
    However in higher altitude the effective range of them dramatically increased.


    Additional interesting information, the typical US spy radars on the burkes has a blind spot above the ship, around 45-50 degree wide.

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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:02 am

    Actually, the feasibility of the scramjet to work in ramjet/subsonic range is easy.

    It is possible to calculate the mass flow / engine parameters for all conditions.

    It can gives the engine intake for different altitudes/speeds,

    That makes it possible to calculate require variable intake diameters .

    and the later is the restrictive element of the design.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:19 am

    GarryB wrote:An I-15 Biplane was used for testing of early ramjets...

    Sorry for the Off Topic

    But where the hell did you dig up this photo from Question Very Happy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:12 pm

    Perhaps detonation engine will go to Zircons?


    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Dvig1000Can I use a detonation engine in hypersonic rockets?


    The fuel explodes - the flight is normal

    There are being created engines for hypersonic missiles of the future
    Successful tests of the so-called detonation rocket engines have yielded very interesting results. Experimental design work in this direction will be continued.

    Detonation is an explosion. Is it possible to make it manageable? Is it possible to create hypersonic weapons based on such engines? Which rocket engines will take unmanned and manned spacecraft into near space? This is our conversation with the deputy general director - chief designer of NPO Energomash named after academician VP Glushko, Pyotr Levochkin.

    Can I use a detonation engine in hypersonic rockets?


    Peter Levochkin: And you can, and you need to. At least because the combustion of fuel in it is supersonic. And in those engines, which are now trying to create controlled hypersonic aircraft, subsonic combustion. And this creates a lot of problems. After all, if the combustion in the engine is subsonic, and the engine flies, say, at a speed of five mahs (one mah is equal to the speed of sound), one must counter the flow of air to the sound mode. Accordingly, the entire energy of this braking passes into heat, which leads to an additional overheating of the structure.

    And in the detonation engine, the combustion process proceeds at a speed of at least two and a half times higher than the sound speed. And, accordingly, we can increase the speed of the aircraft by this amount. That is, we are already talking not about five, but about eight mahas. This is actually achievable to date, the speed of aircraft with hypersonic engines, which will use the principle of detonation combustion.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:15 pm

    Use of a pulse detonation engine would be a revolution. Yes, you can use them from zero to hypersonic
    speeds and they are much more efficient at large speeds compared to Brayton cycle engines.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:55 pm

    Thats not just a pulse detonation, its a continuous detonation (something like the shock continuously circles round).
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:50 pm

    For a missile it makes sense to use a one off solid rocket booster to get the missile moving and airborne, but ramjets and scramjets don't need supersonic airflow to operate.

    A modern turbojet engine needs a variable intake to control the airflow to allow supersonic flight because a turbojet engine chokes on supersonic air.... a scramjet can operate in a supersonic air flow and therefore can operate at much higher speeds without thrust reductions because it does not need its air intake constricted to reduce air speed into the intake... the thrust would be enormous...

    For a reusable aircraft you can't use solid rocket boosters... a normal turbofan engine can accelerate the aircraft to speed and height and then the nose cone could move forward and block off the air going into the turbofan so it only goes through the bypass section, which can then operate like a ramjet (SR-71) or Scramjet (nothing so far).

    The point is that for a long range missile its power to weight ratio is not going to be that good because it is probably carrying a lot of fuel to start off with. A solid rocket booster can accelerate and climb the missile to altitude, and the scramjet motor can then be started and run at medium throttle to accelerate and climb but not use too much fuel in the early flight stage where high speed is not that critical. Closer to the target where speed is more important a much higher throttle setting could be used including full afterburner for max speed at lower weights where the power to weight ratio means much higher speeds could be achieved and maintained.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:59 am

    A glimpse at a Russian Hypersonic missile

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 QBlbETx

    You can see it at 0:14 on this trailer of Voennaya Priomka that will be aired this sunday:

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    Post  x_54_u43 on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:33 am

    TheArmenian wrote:A glimpse at a Russian Hypersonic missile

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 QBlbETx

    You can see it at 0:14 on this trailer of Voennaya Priomka that will be aired this sunday:


    Intake is very interesting, thank you for posting.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:54 am

    Thanks for posting TheArmenian... nice pics.

    What I am trying to say is that the photo I posted of a Biplane with two ramjets show ramjets don't need to be moving very fast to actually work.

    Those ramjets were very basic early models... probably the first models on an aircraft in the Soviet Union... they were testing them.

    The point is that without the ramjets the aircraft flew at speed x, but with the ramjets fitted the aircraft flew at speed x + 45km/h.

    The extra weight and rather increased drag generated by those huge ass ramjets reduced the top flight speed of the aircraft by quite a bit but with the engines running they overcame their own drag and created thrust.

    It is the same with ramjets they were testing in the 1980s and 1990s that consisted of SA-5 rockets with the warhead removed and the guidance radar removed and replaced with a small ramjet motor and fuel and control equipment.

    The SA-5 missile launched via its rocket motors and solid rocket boosters as normal... the solid rocket boosters fell away at at a height of over 10km at mach 4.5 the main engine shut down and the nose mounted ramjet motor started up and accelerated the whole package up to mach 6 and ran for about 130 seconds.

    What I am saying is that ramjet technology has moved on from that biplane but a ramjet is still just a very simple motor... air comes in the front and is channeled into a high pressure small tube where fuel is added and burned and exits the rear of the tube hotter and faster than it came in... ie thrust.

    The only difference between a ramjet and a scramjet, is that a scramjet can burn fuel at supersonic airflows inside the engine... in a ramjet you need an intake design that can choke or restrict the air flowing into the engine so that it slows down to subsonic speed before being ignited.

    Obviously if you are sucking air into a machine so you can get it to blow out the rear as fast as possible to generate as much thrust as possible having to slow it down so you can burn fuel is actually counter productive... you want it to never slow down... keep it fast and burn fuel in it to make it go even faster out the rear.... that is what a scramjet is.

    As I also said... in a missile, which is a one shot thing you don't need to reuse, then there is a large column of empty space in the rear combustion area that you can't use for anything else... it has to be empty when you are running the ramjet or scramjet, so you put a solid rocket motor in there... when it burns out you start the ramjet... you can't really put anything else in there because it would be ejected when you start the scramjet.

    Even if you launch the missile from a supersonic aircraft the solid rocket booster will still fire first before the scramjet motor can work.

    So, if you have a ground launcher for a Zircon, the rocket motor will start the missile moving and start to climb for altitude.

    Everything that flys fast flys high... the air is thinner up higher so friction is reduced... a mach 2 fighter jet can only fly at mach 2 at high altitude... the thin cold air makes jet engines more efficient and make flying through the air easier.

    If you have two Zircon missiles... one on the ground and one in an aircraft at 10km altitude at mach .9, in both cases the rocket motors will fire and make both missiles accelerate and climb... the missile on the ground might get to mach .6 and 5km altitude before it falls away and the scramjet motor lights up and it accelerates and climbs... for the air launched missile it will use its rocket motor too but it will climb much higher which means it will also be moving much faster when the solid rocket motor burns out... it will have greatly more range and speed.

    As soon as possible however it will switch from ramjet to scramjet mode because scramjet mode means more thrust and more efficient use of fuel because the airflow does not need to be slowed down before fuel is burned... ie higher exhaust thrust speed.

    If we are talking about an aircraft however... it makes little sense to use solid rocket motors for initial acceleration because you will need to start up multiple times.

    Having a turbojet engine in the form of a turboramjet that can burn fuel at supersonic speed you end up with a turbojet engine for takeoff that accelerates the aircraft to as high a speed as the engines can do in turbojet mode efficiently and then it would close off the turbojet path and run air around it in a bypass mode like a ramjet and then scramjet mode could get you to orbital speed if the aircraft could take it...
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    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:42 am

    Saw that elsewhere along with this
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Hyfly
    Note the logo on the thing in the video.

    Thats some real Russian trolling respekt

    Edit: hmm interesting thing http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/hyfly.html it is actually a dual-mode ram/scramjet in a missile.
    Frankly I have been doubting the practicality of doing that but apparently it can be done. (albeit appears to have failed...)
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    Post  Enera on Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:41 pm

    I watched through the entire video with help of google translate. Unfortunately, the picture referred by TheArmenian isn't probably Zircon but the DCR model of American HyFly program. The segment (starting on 30.37 minute mark) when they show the model was about doing and testing scaled down radar models of Western equipment so that when they look on VKO radar screen for real, they can do educated guesses on what it is.

    The presenter did troll Western audience in that particular segment though, going on like "they never completed it" and "Sorry western warriors" which could refer to keyboard warriors that might be enraged that the evil Russians are doing copies of notional Western stuff like F-18 to F-35 and GBI missile. Laughing
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    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:22 am

    A while back (Dec?) someone senior (Rogozin I think) let slip something about Hypersonic tech already being in service, a bunch of ppl took that as a(n unlikely) claim that Zircon was already in service, I saw other comments which suggested more rationally IMO that it was reference to existing manoeuvring ballistic missile tech like Iskander.

    Apparently it was reference to this which has just been officially anounced by Putin.

    Kinzhal missile: Mach10, 2000km range, launched from Mig-31BM Shocked
    Could Zircon be based on this?

    Same time amongst other things announced is a new hypersonic maneuvring ICBM warhead as in production too.
    Point being Russia proving it knows how to do hypersonic.
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    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:59 am

    Zircon is ship-based, according to officials is already part of Russian Military and its not nuclear armed
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    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:13 am

    It was Bondarev.
    And the thing about that is it was a longish interview/presser, at the time I found a transcript in Russian & he'd said a bunch of stuff about new weapons development without specifically mentioning actual weapon programs but did mention hypersonic tech.
    Then he was asked 'isn't it risky & incredibly expensive/wasteful developing this all new hypersonic tech', his response was 'no we already have hypersonic tech in service, we already know hypersonic', the reporters seem to have interpreted that as 'Zircon is in service', I think it was reference to existing manoeuvring ballistic tech.
    And it was close enough to the announced service date for this Kinzhal that he may have been referring to that.
    Either way he didn't actually say 'Zircon is in service'.

    Yes Zircon is ship based but that doesn't preclude it being a version of Kinzhal adapted for ship-launch similar to how Kalibr is related to the air-launched Kh-55.
    From the video the air-launched Kinzhal starts with a ballistic trajectory then appears to have a manoeuvring 2nd stage which can take multiple paths to target, Zircon could be that 2nd stage linked to a shorter range boost stage to get out of VLS & up to speed or just getting up to speed/altitude from a ship hurts the range a lot vs air-launch.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:14 am

    Seems Kinzhal is probably 'just' basically an air-launched Iskander
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 02-6000981-wtf

    Pretty much kills the idea that Zircon would be based on this, at 0.92m diameter Iskander is almost certainly too fat for UKSK.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:53 am

    Edit: hmm interesting thing http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/hyfly.html it is actually a dual-mode ram/scramjet in a missile.
    Frankly I have been doubting the practicality of doing that but apparently it can be done. (albeit appears to have failed...)

    The only difference between a ramjet and a scramjet is the fact that a scramjet can burn fuel at supersonic speed... otherwise they are both ramjets.

    This suggests that a scramjet should be able to operate in ramjet mode at low speed....

    Otherwise what you are suggesting is that a turbojet that flys at mach 2.8 like the engines in the MiG-31 could not possibly be started on the ground at zero speed and operate at less than 500km/h during takeoff and landing... when clearly they do.

    I doubt they would be very efficient if they never went faster than 500km/h but that is not to say they don't work at those speeds.

    It looks very much like an air launched Iskander, but then being air launched there are no limits on speed or range... which shows you the potential of the ground launched missile... of course mach 10 is simply too fast for a rocket that size and 2,000km range means it is most likely fitted with a scramjet sustainer, unlike the Iskander...
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    Post  hoom on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:01 am

    The only difference between a ramjet and a scramjet is the fact that a scramjet can burn fuel at supersonic speed... otherwise they are both ramjets.

    This suggests that a scramjet should be able to operate in ramjet mode at low speed....
    You need to reconfigure the shape of the combustion chamber between the two modes because the energy cycle is different.
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Turbo_ram_scramjet_comparative_diagram
    Not impossible but complex -> likely to be heavy, expensive & possibly unreliable so seems unlikely to do in a missile instead of a simple rocket booster to get it up to scramjet speed.
    Maybe Boeing found a relatively simple way to do it though dunno
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    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:51 am

    Trials of Zircon hypersonic missiles on ships and submarines to start in 2019 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1033298
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    hoom

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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Empty Re: 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:52 am

    Confirmation it does actually fit in UKSK then.

    I wonder if there'll be torpedo-tube sub version or just for Yasen sub-UKSK?
    Isos
    Isos

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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Empty Re: 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:55 am

    hoom wrote:Confirmation it does actually fit in UKSK then.

    I wonder if there'll be torpedo-tube sub version or just for Yasen sub-UKSK?

    UKSK can carry oniks that is bigger than the 533mm tubes for torpedos so we can't say "UKSK can launch it so torpedo tubes can" the opposite is true... Maybe 650mm could.

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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 5 Empty Re: 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

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