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    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War

    starman
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    Post  starman on Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:19 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:I didn’t say IDF tanks were not fighting but IAF ,ATGMs teams and artillery were there too ,

    I didn't say they weren't just that the bulk of the Egyptian tanks and APCs hit were hit by IDF tanks.

    you said IAF wasn’t effective

    I didn't say it wasn't effective--it was clearly effective near the Mitla on the 14th--just less so than tanks.


    On 11 October, the IDF had established a special course for rapidly training instructors on the use of the TOWs. 105 This gave them ample time to train units for action by 14 October.

    Maybe but he didn't cite evidence for their actual use here.


    the Egyptian Air missile basis were pulled backward on the 16th & 17th of Oct That means the 3rd army fought for one week till the 24th without Canal west complete SAM umbrella against IAF & IDF formations without being destroyed or impaired. It was protected by its potable anti air missiles & by the EAF.

    But the IAF had to strike SAM bases south of the geneifa on the 22nd. These presumably protected the 3rd until that day or the next.


    Already I shared the U.S intelligence report that Egyptian AD was effective throughout the war ,as below !!

    Where it still existed maybe. But the 3rd no longer had much if anything and it showed--the Egyptians had to make a special appeal for blood for the third army's wounded.



    No , as per Egyptian sources , IDF reached Cairo Suez road on the dawn of the 24th. It reached the Gulf of Suez on the night of the 24th .


    Already by the 21st the 4rth armored was trying to drive Adan's units away from positions just north of the road, where their guns interdicted traffic. Adan may not have reached the road on the 20th but he was in a position to cut it.


    Number were mentioned by many Egyptian books ,check the historian Gamal Hammad books .

    I don't think Magen even brought that many tanks across the canal--Rabinovich says he crossed with 80.



    Between 31-Oct to 18-Jan , Egyptian forces did 439 attacks on IDF forces  to prevent them for re-supplying or re-organizing, that’s why Israelis digged tunnels (width 7m and depth 5 m) to prevent the EGY forces from attacking them , they also put 750,000 anti armor mines to protect their forces .

    439 attack during ceasefire caused the below IDF losses according to IDF official declarations (real losses more than those ):

    Big deal. I meant how could the Egyptians launch a counterattack sufficient to reach third army or wipe out the bridgehead entirely, in late October. Kabil was very reluctant to try because he knew it was very risky if not suicidal.



    Bypassing many Egyptian forces and not securing the logistics ,IDF put his forces in a danger to be destroyed.

    But this wasn't possible in late October because by then the Egyptian armored forces had been mostly wrecked. The 21st and 4rth were badly depleted the 25th destroyed. If the Egyptians had a realistic chance in late October Kabil would not have been so reluctant to try...


    - Failed to push the 2nd army from its new positions in the east of the canal to the west.
    - Failed to push the 3rd army from its new positions in the east of the canal to the west.
    - Failed to encircle the 2nd army.
    - Failed to invade Suez city or Ismaeilia city.
    - Failed to occupy Missory position east of the canal. This failure prevented IDF from widening the passage between the troops in the west canal bank

    The bottom line is the IDF successfully trapped 3rd army, and could've finished it had the war continued another week.


    They had it also in Mansourah air battle , in 53 minutes, 17 IAF aircrafts were downed and IAF tactics failed that day .

     Sorry I just don't believe that. If the EAF was really that effective, what the heck did Egypt need SAMs for? Laughing Where is the evidence for a single Phantom kill on the 14th let alone 17? Where's the wreckage or gun camera film of a Phantom being shot down on the 14th?

    The main plan from General Alshazli (which Sadat rejected ) was to pullback 3 brigades from 2nd army +one from the 3rd army , after that we can add Republican Gaurds armored divisions joined the front. Since ceasefire, enormous Tanks supplies were pouring to Egypt from USSR, Jougoslavia & Algeria.

    Maybe all that was ready by December not not October 24-26th….


    Bypassing main Egyptian forces is not a complete succeed , IDF put his forces in a trap .

    Laughing If that were true Egypt wouldn't have agreed to a cease fire but destroyed the "trapped" enemy.


    To the last day IDF was losing a lot ,that’s why they put mines and dig tunnels to stop the Egyptian attacks , if Shamel plan was applied , all IDF forces would be destroyed ,that’s why U.S threatened Egypt .

    Again I wasn't talking about the situation in December but two months earlier….

    Don't get me wrong, I have respect for the Egyptians who fought with great courage and, occasionally, great effectiveness. But one ought to be brutally realistic and self critical, otherwise you'll never learn from experience.
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:38 pm

    I didn't say they weren't just that the bulk of the Egyptian tanks and APCs hit were hit by IDF tanks.

    You gave an impression that IAF and ATGMs were not effective that day and this is wrong , I shared sources for both of them .



    Maybe but he didn't cite evidence for their actual use here.

    Ok you are free to believe the IDF story which no evidence over it too .At least i shared western sources .



    But the IAF had to strike SAM bases south of the geneifa on the 22nd. These presumably protected the 3rd until that day or the next.
    Where it still existed maybe. But the 3rd no longer had much if anything and it showed--the Egyptians had to make a special appeal for blood for the third army's wounded.

    If there were no protection for the 3rd army , why IAF didn’t take it down .IAF tried hard and failed to accomplish the job and lost many aircrafts .CIA report said that and mentioned by

    David Nicolle and Tom Cooper

    in their book “arab mig-19 and mig-21 units in combat” , the one that you are trusting  !!

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    And by CIA
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    Neglecting the EAF role is far a way from what happened , EAF faced IAF effectively even with low aircrafts cababilities as below stories , IAF failure to destroy airports using 120 aircrafts against 62 EAF aircrafts was a clear evidence of IAF low cabability .

    Below stories showing the failure of IAF VS EAF ,also showing that MANPADs were used to down some IAF aircrafts .

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    Already by the 21st the 4rth armored was trying to drive Adan's units away from positions just north of the road, where their guns interdicted traffic. Adan may not have reached the road on the 20th but he was in a position to cut it.

    The goal of the advance after 22-Oct is to reach to that road , they did reach by 24th

    The U.S plan as Kissinger said was to make an advance to push Egypt return to 5th Oct lines ,IDF failed to accomplish the plan , Egypt put her conditions .




    I don't think Magen even brought that many tanks across the canal--Rabinovich says he crossed with 80.

    Historian Gamal Hammad said 180 tanks with Magen and reached Suez road with 50 only .




    Big deal. I meant how could the Egyptians launch a counterattack sufficient to reach third army or wipe out the bridgehead entirely, in late October. Kabil was very reluctant to try because he knew it was very risky if not suicidal.


    I didn’t say the Egyptian forces on the west were enough to face the IDF there but it’s role was to make a separate attacks till the support come which consists of 5 armored brigades (600 tanks) 2nd army infantry divisions east of the Canal & pushed to the south to support Kabil division & continue surrounding IDF west of the canal. Republican Gaurds armored divisions joined the front. Since ceasefire, enormous Tanks supplies were pouring to Egypt from USSR, Jougoslavia & Algeria.
    IDF continued his attacks up to 27 Oct trying to enforce the 3rd army to surrender or to occupy Suez city but they failed ,.IDF with two brigades tried to invade Suez a 24-Oct but failed  , In the north, General Sharon troops were defeated south Of Ismaelya city by the Egyptian commando brigade 150 & 182 . On the East of Canal, IDF attacked Div 16 in Missori & the nothern sector of the chineese farm & failed . IDF forces confronting the 2nd army & the 3rd army in the east of the Canal failed to push them one inch backward.

    The IDF losses between 31-Oct to 18-Jan and in Suez were mentioned by Dr. George W. Gawrych as below :

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    But this wasn't possible in late October because by then the Egyptian armored forces had been mostly wrecked. The 21st and 4rth were badly depleted the 25th destroyed. If the Egyptians had a realistic chance in late October Kabil would not have been so reluctant to try...


    Wrong. IDF failed against infantry forces to fullfill a major achievement west of the Canal. Sharon Division that was attacking to the north in the Ismaeilya direction to isolate the 2nd army was stopped by the 182nd paratroopers brigade, 129th commandos brigade & 139th commandos brigade. IDF crossing yard was being shelled on a minutely basis by the 2nd army & the 3rd army artillary & rockets. The Missory fortification east of the canal was strangling IDF logistic supplies passage to the west. Together with the chineese Farm battles, the Missory 16th armoured division troops destroyed IDF operation time schedule & wasted IDF prime goals of Canal crossing.
    The Egyptian Artillary shells on IDF bridges & area of collection ( the Yard) did not stop since the 16th till the 2nd cease fire on the 24th. During this period , Rockets, Artillary shells, Katyousha, Napalm & air bombardments were dropped on IDF receiving area west of the canal. Hundreds of IDF personal were killed or injured due to this day/night continuous shelling to mark the trap which IDF put 3 of his armored divisions inside it.The failure  to conquer Missouri left their logistics supplies to their forces west of the canal subjected to artillery bombardment. In addition this site together with the other 16th Div positions offer excellent axis for cutting IDF thin access to its 3 divisions west of the canal upon hostilities works resumption. IDF faced high losses without any plan to secure his trapped forces . The high rank which IDF rate the Egyptian gunners is due to the perfect shelling of the Passage & the Yard area .



    The bottom line is the IDF successfully trapped 3rd army, and could've finished it had the war continued another week.


    And put IDF on the west in a danger to be destroyed .
    IDF propganda which is presenting the 3Rd army seige as the only outcome of the war ,while ignoring the forced existence of more than 200,000 Egyptian troops in IDF pre-war positions, is pathetic.
    The Egyptian GC was preparing to cut the passage from the reinforced 2nd army positions in the north with a simultanous local attacks on IDF divisions west of the Canal. You should not limit the new operations to the 3rd army front. By trying to demolish the 3rd army, IDF should prove that it can hold long defensive positions against a determined well organized multi node Egyptian attack on Canal west front. Only, the opposite was proved on the 6th of October.
    IDF failed to maintain its Counter attack War objects till the 22nd of Oct. Egypt & Israel agreed to Ceasefire & UN decision 338 on that day. IDF violated the ceasefire & maintained a ground surround of the third army on the 24th of Oct. Yet, this try for reversing the War outcome was blocked by Egypt threat that unless IDF retreat to th 22nd lines, the Egyptian Army will resume its operations & open an access to the 3rd army. Fearing from the erupt further military actions, Israel agreed to hold military discussions with the Egyptians to discuss the issue of the 22nd lines

    The Egyptian Army has fulfilled his War targets. IDF never returned to its 5th of Oct positions which were conquered by the Egyptian Army. The War started with the 50% of Canal shores under direct occupation by IDF. After 18 days of fighting, 75% of Suez Canal shores became under the Egyptian Army direct control. The trapped third army divisions are far counterbalanced by the threatened positions of IDF 3 armored divisions west of  the Canal. An attrition war was started from the 30th of Nov till the 18th of Jan 1974. IDF retreat was obligatory & took place on the 18th of Jan till the passes lines.

    General Adan confessions Laughing
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    Sorry I just don't believe that. If the EAF was really that effective, what the heck did Egypt need SAMs for?   Where is the evidence for a single Phantom kill on the 14th let alone 17? Where's the wreckage or gun camera film of a Phantom being shot down on the 14th?

    EAF is following the eastern philosophy to combine between Airforces and AD forces , also EAF had less aircrafts cababilities than IAF but EAF was effective too . Mansourah Air battle is a witness to the failure of IAF to face EAF . IAF used 120 aircraft but failed to achieve it’s goals .

    So you are disucussing if EAF has downed some IAF aircrafts but you are ignoring the failure of IAF on that battle HAHAHAHAHA  lol1  lol1

    The previous battles are  an evidences that EAF was a hard opponent although the unlimited supplies by U.S to IAF .

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War - Page 3 Screen96



    Maybe all that was ready by December not not October 24-26th….

    No this was in October and Sadat refused it .


    If that were true Egypt wouldn't have agreed to a cease fire but destroyed the "trapped" enemy.
    Actually if IDF achieved any goals on the west , why it accepted the ceasefire , also Egypt received warnings from U.S not to attack the IDF trapped forces .

    Getting the IDF back 30 km to the east of the water line without maintaining any political price for this retreat is what Egypt needs from the begining of war. This was done as a result of 1st disengagement agreement where the egyptian side agreed on having a buffer zone between both armies.
    This  clearly expresses the Egyptian army victory in fullfilling his War targets. Israel lost its 5th of October lines & Suez canal East bank forever. The failure of IDF to restore its 5th of october positions is a clear mark of its defeat.

    So the ceasefire was a victory to Egypt ,so why Israel accepted it  lol1


    But one ought to be brutally realistic and self critical, otherwise you'll never learn from experience.

    That’s why Agranat Commision was set up to investigate failings in the Israel Defense Forces  Twisted Evil , the interim report, released 1 April 1974, called for the dismissal of a number of senior officers in the IDF and caused such controversy that Prime Minister Golda Meir was forced to resign .
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:55 pm

    IDF during the withdrawal was enforced to evacuate the Yamit settlement  from Israelis population , it was established during Israel's occupation of the peninsula . All the homes were evacuated and bulldozed  lol1

    IDF put some people in cages to take them out  lol!  lol!

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    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:11 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    If there were no protection for the 3rd army , why IAF didn’t take it down .

    As I wrote before--source Dupuy-- they probably would've pounded it into submission if they had just one more week.



    Neglecting the EAF role is far a way from what happened , EAF faced IAF effectively even with low aircrafts cababilities as below stories , IAF failure to destroy airports using 120 aircrafts against 62 EAF aircrafts was a clear evidence of IAF low cabability .

    You've seen the older works but apparently not the latest on the subject--The First Nuclear War which says the IAF committed only about 27 Phantoms on the 14th, and there is no physical evidence that any were shot down by the EAF. One might have been, by Musa, but that's unproven.
    I already saw all those pics you posted, at least one of them as far back as 1975 and none of them prove the EAF downed ANY jets on the 14th.


    The goal of the advance after 22-Oct is to reach to that road , they did reach by 24th

    But the IDF was already able to hinder if not stop traffic on the Cairo-Suez road by the 21st at the latest.


    Historian Gamal Hammad said 180 tanks with Magen and reached Suez road with 50 only .

    I don't think he crossed with that many, but it is true he was mauled...


    I didn’t say the Egyptian forces on the west were enough to face the IDF there but it’s role was to make a separate attacks till the support come which consists of 5 armored brigades (600 tanks) 2nd army infantry divisions east of the Canal & pushed to the south to support Kabil division

    They planned to send the whole 2nd army west and south to help Kabil? Laughing During the war they wouldn't even send a single brigade, the 15th, west…The 2nd's tank brigades--notably the 21st's brigades-- were badly depleted by the end of the war; I doubt 600 operational ones were still available. If the second army was really that strong it would've succeeded in overwhelming the enemy on the 17th.

    Republican Gaurds armored divisions joined the front.

    Not divisions to my knowledge just one or two brigades including the 27th, which had already fought before the 24rth.


    Since ceasefire, enormous Tanks supplies were pouring to Egypt from USSR, Jougoslavia & Algeria.

    Good for Shamel but not in time to save the third army had the war continued.


    IDF continued his attacks up to 27 Oct trying to enforce the 3rd army to surrender or to occupy Suez city but they failed ,.IDF with two brigades tried to invade Suez a 24-Oct but failed  , In the north, General Sharon troops were defeated south Of Ismaelya city by the Egyptian commando brigade 150 & 182 . On the East of Canal, IDF attacked Div 16 in Missori & the nothern sector of the chineese farm & failed . IDF forces confronting the 2nd army & the 3rd army in the east of the Canal failed to push them one inch backward.

    The Egyptians did retreat from the Chinese farm and the southern part of Missouri. I know Egypt had some successes in the war (!) unfortunately it failed to prevent the Israeli crossing of the canal and establishment of a big bridgehead and the trapping of 3rd army….


    Wrong. IDF failed against infantry forces to fullfill a major achievement west of the Canal. Sharon Division that was attacking to the north in the Ismaeilya direction to isolate the 2nd army was stopped by the 182nd paratroopers brigade, 129th commandos brigade & 139th commandos brigade. IDF crossing yard was being shelled on a minutely basis by the 2nd army & the 3rd army artillary & rockets. The Missory fortification east of the canal was strangling IDF logistic supplies passage to the west. Together with the chineese Farm battles, the Missory 16th armoured division troops destroyed IDF operation time schedule & wasted IDF prime goals of Canal crossing.

    But this didn't address my point--Egypt was powerless by the 24rth, to break through to 3rd army and save it had the war gone on…


    And put IDF on the west in a danger to be destroyed .
    IDF propganda which is presenting the 3Rd army seige as the only outcome of the war ,while ignoring the forced existence of more than 200,000 Egyptian troops in IDF pre-war positions, is pathetic.

    I can't believe Egypt still had that many east of the canal at the end. An article I saw after the war said the third had around 18,000 men in two depleted divisions and the second not much more maybe 50,000 total.



    The Egyptian GC was preparing to cut the passage from the reinforced 2nd army positions in the north with a simultanous local attacks on IDF divisions west of the Canal.

    Laughing With what? The shattered 23rd mechanized? And 21st armored had already failed east of the canal.



    EAF is following the eastern philosophy to combine between Airforces and AD forces ,

    I note it only began to emphasize SAMs after the EAF failures of 1967-70….



    Actually if IDF achieved any goals on the west , why it accepted the ceasefire

    Because of superpower pressure.

    This  clearly expresses the Egyptian army victory in fullfilling his War targets. Israel lost its 5th of October lines & Suez canal East bank forever. The failure of IDF to restore its 5th of october positions is a clear mark of its defeat.

    Na it was due to politics. The US pressured Israel to pull back to help wean Egypt off dependency on the USSR, and turn to the US instead.


    That’s why Agranat Commision was set up to investigate failings in the Israel Defense Forces  Twisted Evil , the interim report, released 1 April 1974, called for the dismissal of a number of senior officers in the IDF and caused such controversy that Prime Minister Golda Meir was forced to resign .

    I was referring to Egyptians. They had serious failings in 1973 just like in 1967. Your views, which paint a very rosy picture of Egyptian fortunes in '73, aren't conducive to improvement as they don't seem to recognize any need for it.
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:38 pm

    As I wrote before--source Dupuy-- they probably would've pounded it into submission if they had just one more week.
    If IDF thought for a second they can do that , they would . Egypt forces did 439  attacks from 1-Nov to 18-Jan , why IDF didn’t reply by the same attacks or why they didn’t take that as an excuse to stop the ceasefire and start a wide operation against 3rd army ? why they took a defensive side and put hundredth of thousands of mines and digged tunnels ?

    Below is a quote by Edgar O'Ballance from his book " NO VICTOR, NO VANQUISHED":

    At the Israeli Symposium on the October War held in Jerusalem in October 1975 Colonel Trevor Dupuy stated that "it was clear that

    Third Army were not on the verge of collapse


    ." Further, Drew Middleton, military editor of the New York Times, wrote, "The

    Egyptian armies did not break. They were outmanoeuvred, not outfought. They were still in being


    ."


    Quote from David Nicolle and Tom Cooper in their book “arab mig-19 and mig-21 units in combat

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    CIA
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    Egyptian leaders on the east canal were not worry about the crossed IDF on the west .




    You've seen the older works but apparently not the latest on the subject--The First Nuclear War which says the IAF committed only about 27 Phantoms on the 14th, and there is no physical evidence that any were shot down by the EAF. One might have been, by Musa, but that's unproven.
    I already saw all those pics you posted, at least one of them as far back as 1975 and none of them prove the EAF downed ANY jets on the 14th.

    They said in their book that IAF used 120 aircrafts as below , it’s over .
    And that makes sense with David nicolle describtion regarding the IAF tactics to use 3 waves on that battle ,will they send only 27 aircraft to make such huge attack using 3 waves to destroy airports that contains tens of aircrafts ?? BS

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War - Page 3 Scree100

    Here is  David Nicolle said that IAF failed that day  Laughing



    Even wiki mentioned higher IAF aircrafts numbers (160 )
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_battle_of_Mansoura#cite_note-nicolle43-1

    It's pathetic that Israeli fanboys trying hard to demolish facts .

    By the way I didn’t say that the photos are related to Mansourah air battle !! I was proving that air-air combat wasn’t completely in favor of IAF and that EAF was a hard opponent .
    IAF received tons of new aircrafts and new munitions and ECM devices during the war from U.S , but till the last day they can’t completely destroy EAF which considered as a double failure because Egypt didn't receive that huge supplies .

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    But the IDF was already able to hinder if not stop traffic on the Cairo-Suez road by the 21st at the latest.
    No , they can only by 24th .


    I don't think he crossed with that many, but it is true he was mauled...
    He did had that forces but most of it was destroyed . Actually each Israeli brigades on the west faced huge losses and by the end each one contains between 17 to 50 tank .


    I doubt 600 operational ones were still available.
    I can't believe Egypt still had that many east of the canal at the end

    No problem if you doubt , you are defending Israeli’s terrorism (The Israeli magazine Haolam Hazeh after the war published a photostat of a document that purported to show that the chief rabbi of the IDF had during the war issued a religious dispensation to Israeli soldiers to kill Arab civilians) so I understand your doubts .

    Not divisions to my knowledge just one or two brigades including the 27th, which had already fought before the 24rth.
    Add to them 400 tanks from Algeria,Libya and Youghoslavia which were ready by the ceasefire date , in total it's more than a division .

    Good for Shamel but not in time to save the third army had the war continued.
    The unsuccessfully fate of IDF attacks on DIV 16 &Suez and Ismailya, point to the expected scenario that would have resulted if IDF tried to attack the 3rd Army after the 24th of OCT.
    IDF terrorists were afraid to attack the 3rd army and accepted the ceasefire and withdrawal 35km to the east after that , any other excuses are pathetic .


    The Egyptians did retreat from the Chinese farm and the southern part of Missouri. I know Egypt had some successes in the war (!) unfortunately it failed to prevent the Israeli crossing of the canal and establishment of a big bridgehead and the trapping of 3rd army….
    But this didn't address my point--Egypt was powerless by the 24rth, to break through to 3rd army and save it had the war gone on…
    With what? The shattered 23rd mechanized? And 21st armored had already failed east of the canal.

    Israeli terrorists failed to occupy Missouri . The chineses Farm  was subjected to periodic Egyptian shellfire . The Missouri Ridge, dangerously near the Israeli bridgehead, was still held by the Egyptians,and there was another strong 16th Infantry Division position about four miles to the north of Chinese Farm.

    Below is the analysis of Owen, Richard L., Major, USMC of US Marine Corps Command and Staff College in his Report with the title [Operational Valiant: Turning Of The Tide In The Sinai 1973 Arab-Israeli War].

    Missouri ridge remained a problem. From that position, the Egyptians could fire, and direct fire, on the Israelis in the corridor. Sharon's remaining forces on the east bank were unable to take the position, and settled in about one kilometer north of Chinese Farm

    .
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/ORL.htm

    The fact is that the IDF was under extrieme pressure from the Egyptian army on both Canal fronts. From the 24th of October till the 18th of January, an attrition war was imposed where more than 200 IDF troops were killed & further equipment destroyed, more that 11 aircrafts downed .
    The agreement was reached on the 11/Nov reflects the real IDF critical situation on the west which forced it to withdraw without  maintaining any Political return,complete failure .

    The 18th of Jan first disengagement agreement reflects the Egyptian army victory. Here IDF withdraw from his threatened positions west of Canal to 35 kms east without any political return.

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    To the last day , Egyptian forces attacked IDF , why IDF didn’t take this as a reason to stop the ceasefire and start the battle again if they can destroy the 3rd army ? HAHAHA because those terrorists were stuck on the west, Tha’s why U.S threatened Egypt not to attack and destroy the IDF on the west .


    I note it only began to emphasize SAMs after the EAF failures of 1967-70….
    It’s funny that Israeli fanboys to allege that EAF did fight in 1967 , it didn’t because the Egyptian generals were stupid enough to keep the aircrafts on the airports and gave a free sweet dish to the terrorists in Israel . Egypt didn’t fight in 1967 .


    Because of superpower pressure.
    Na it was due to politics. The US pressured Israel to pull back to help wean Egypt off dependency on the USSR, and turn to the US instead.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA  lol1  lol1   this is the biggest lie by IDF fanboys to cover the IDF failure to keep Sinai but in the same time they kept Golan .

    There are many facts in this life . Sun rise from the East , Israel never giveback the lands until being defeated .
    Egypt already offered peace talks before the war but Israel and U.S refused it ,so why would they accept it after war ?
    And why didn’t U.S pushed Israel to return the occupied Golan Heights and keep Syria away from USSR ??

    Actually Sadat had already tensions with Soviets even before the war ,he wasn’t satisfy about the arms supplies by Soviets or by their interfere in the Egyptian decisions .

    Soviets and U.S at 1972 agreed to calm down the ME and rejecting any wars between Arabs and Israel , and Soviets used sometimes the arms supply to play that game , Sadat visited Mosocow 4 times trying to convince them to provide more arms . Two days before the war , Brezhnev sent a clear message to Sadat not to start a war with Israel .

    Algerian president that time after his visit to USSR ,said that Soviets need Sadat to be defeated . Sadat asked all soviets experts before the war to leave Egypt , so  the guy already had many tensions with USSR and there was no any condition from US to enforce Egypt to cut relations with USSR , that’s why Mubarak start to improve the relations after Sadat's death .
    Why didn’t Israel took at least half of Sinai ? why they didn’t take Taba which is the last small area ( 1 km2) and Mubarak threatened to go to war if Israel didn’t withdraw from it , HAHA Israel can't face a long war with Egypt , the small Israel is not designed for such long wars and serious attacks .



    I was referring to Egyptians. They had serious failings in 1973 just like in 1967. Your views, which paint a very rosy picture of Egyptian fortunes in '73, aren't conducive to improvement as they don't seem to recognize any need for it.

    The Agranat Commision was set up to investigate failings in the Israel Defense Forces was enough to show the IDF failures during the war .IDF terrorists generals started accusing each others , thousands of demonstrators took to the streets  and the Prime Minister announced the resignation of her government , So Egypt no only achieved military success but also a political one and IDF terrorists lost Sinai which consider as a strategic depth, Israel would never leave that depth without a war .

    Putting the Israeli terrorists inside cages is a huge insult to IDF . lol1  lol1

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    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue May 12, 2020 12:30 pm

    I apparently forgot this thread…Just a few points:
    I'm no "Israeli fanboy." Like Cooper I'm basically sympathetic to the arabs but unlike many of them, severely objective. For the latest research on the air battle of the 14th see Cooper's latest, The First Nuclear War Crucial Air Battles of the 1973 war.
    Egypt, even the EAF, DID fight in 1967. At least one Egyptian pilot shot down an IAF jet while Pollack mentioned "more than 150" sorties into the Sinai. It is true that the fighting potential of much of the Egyptian army was negated by the disorderly retreat. But the retreat was only ordered after the failure of the 4rth to stop the enemy, who had by then (the 6th) overrun the two Egyptian divisions on the frontier.
    For a quite objective assessment of Egyptian performance in '73 see Pollack's Arabs at War.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed May 13, 2020 8:50 pm

    starman wrote:
    Egypt, even the EAF,  DID fight in 1967. At least one Egyptian pilot shot down an IAF jet while Pollack mentioned "more than 150" sorties into the Sinai. It is true that the fighting potential of much of the Egyptian army was negated by the disorderly retreat. But the retreat was only ordered after the failure of the 4rth to stop the enemy, who had by then (the 6th) overrun the two Egyptian divisions on the frontier.
    For a quite objective assessment of Egyptian performance in '73 see Pollack's Arabs at War.

    EAF had lost about 85% of it's airforce on the ground ,so claiming that some stories did happen doesn't prove anything .The main airforce bulk was destroyed on the ground .This was the key victory for Israel . IAF tried to do the same in YK but nearly not a single EAF aircraft get destroyed on the ground.

    Actually the military top generals at 1967 were not qualified to plan for a war ,no plan ,no well training and they were corrupted .On the other side IDF did a well planned attack to destroy most of the EAF aircrafts on the ground to prevent any support to the Egyptian ground forces.
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    Post  starman on Mon May 25, 2020 4:54 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    EAF had lost about 85% of it's airforce on the ground ,so claiming that some stories did happen doesn't prove anything

    There is a well-known photo of EAF jets attacking an Israeli column. Smile

    The main airforce bulk was destroyed on the ground .This was the key victory for Israel

    Pollack wrote that its significance has been exaggerated because the IAF was not very effective in the air to ground role.

    Actually the military top generals at 1967 were not qualified to plan for a war ,no plan ,no well training and they were corrupted .

    Yeah, Muhsain and others were political hacks, chosen for loyalty not competence. Murtagi was different though.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Mon May 25, 2020 8:29 pm

    There is a well-known photo of EAF jets attacking an Israeli column. Smile

    So what ? I already said that .

    Pollack wrote that its significance has been exaggerated because the IAF was not very effective in the air to ground role.

    Belwo quote was said by Pollack in his book "Air Power in the Six-Day War" .

    According to the legends that have grown up around the war, on 5 June 1967 the Israeli Air Force (IAF) obliterated the Arab air forces and thereby won the Six-Day War before it really began. That morning, the first of the war, Israeli Mirages and Myste` res swept down on the unsuspecting Egyptian Air Force at its bases and crippled it beyond repair. The IAF then visited the same destruction on the Jordanian, Syrian and finally the Iraqi air forces, gaining complete control of the skies in the first 12 hours of the conflict. Israeli fighter bombers were then free to smash the Arab armies, flying close air support (CAS) missions for Israeli ground units locked in combat with Arab forces, and battlefield air interdiction (BAI) missions to prevent Arab reinforcements from reaching the front. The pervasive Israeli air presence made it impossible for the Arab armies to move or fight in Sinai, o

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