ahmedfire wrote:I didn’t say IDF tanks were not fighting but IAF ,ATGMs teams and artillery were there too ,
I didn't say they weren't just that the bulk of the Egyptian tanks and APCs hit were hit by IDF tanks.
you said IAF wasn’t effective
I didn't say it wasn't effective--it was clearly effective near the Mitla on the 14th--just less so than tanks.
On 11 October, the IDF had established a special course for rapidly training instructors on the use of the TOWs. 105 This gave them ample time to train units for action by 14 October.
Maybe but he didn't cite evidence for their actual use here.
the Egyptian Air missile basis were pulled backward on the 16th & 17th of Oct That means the 3rd army fought for one week till the 24th without Canal west complete SAM umbrella against IAF & IDF formations without being destroyed or impaired. It was protected by its potable anti air missiles & by the EAF.
But the IAF had to strike SAM bases south of the geneifa on the 22nd. These presumably protected the 3rd until that day or the next.
Already I shared the U.S intelligence report that Egyptian AD was effective throughout the war ,as below !!
Where it still existed maybe. But the 3rd no longer had much if anything and it showed--the Egyptians had to make a special appeal for blood for the third army's wounded.
No , as per Egyptian sources , IDF reached Cairo Suez road on the dawn of the 24th. It reached the Gulf of Suez on the night of the 24th .
Already by the 21st the 4rth armored was trying to drive Adan's units away from positions just north of the road, where their guns interdicted traffic. Adan may not have reached the road on the 20th but he was in a position to cut it.
Number were mentioned by many Egyptian books ,check the historian Gamal Hammad books .
I don't think Magen even brought that many tanks across the canal--Rabinovich says he crossed with 80.
Between 31-Oct to 18-Jan , Egyptian forces did 439 attacks on IDF forces to prevent them for re-supplying or re-organizing, that’s why Israelis digged tunnels (width 7m and depth 5 m) to prevent the EGY forces from attacking them , they also put 750,000 anti armor mines to protect their forces .
439 attack during ceasefire caused the below IDF losses according to IDF official declarations (real losses more than those ):
Big deal. I meant how could the Egyptians launch a counterattack sufficient to reach third army or wipe out the bridgehead entirely, in late October. Kabil was very reluctant to try because he knew it was very risky if not suicidal.
Bypassing many Egyptian forces and not securing the logistics ,IDF put his forces in a danger to be destroyed.
But this wasn't possible in late October because by then the Egyptian armored forces had been mostly wrecked. The 21st and 4rth were badly depleted the 25th destroyed. If the Egyptians had a realistic chance in late October Kabil would not have been so reluctant to try...
- Failed to push the 2nd army from its new positions in the east of the canal to the west.
- Failed to push the 3rd army from its new positions in the east of the canal to the west.
- Failed to encircle the 2nd army.
- Failed to invade Suez city or Ismaeilia city.
- Failed to occupy Missory position east of the canal. This failure prevented IDF from widening the passage between the troops in the west canal bank
The bottom line is the IDF successfully trapped 3rd army, and could've finished it had the war continued another week.
They had it also in Mansourah air battle , in 53 minutes, 17 IAF aircrafts were downed and IAF tactics failed that day .
Sorry I just don't believe that. If the EAF was really that effective, what the heck did Egypt need SAMs for? Where is the evidence for a single Phantom kill on the 14th let alone 17? Where's the wreckage or gun camera film of a Phantom being shot down on the 14th?
The main plan from General Alshazli (which Sadat rejected ) was to pullback 3 brigades from 2nd army +one from the 3rd army , after that we can add Republican Gaurds armored divisions joined the front. Since ceasefire, enormous Tanks supplies were pouring to Egypt from USSR, Jougoslavia & Algeria.
Maybe all that was ready by December not not October 24-26th….
Bypassing main Egyptian forces is not a complete succeed , IDF put his forces in a trap .
If that were true Egypt wouldn't have agreed to a cease fire but destroyed the "trapped" enemy.
To the last day IDF was losing a lot ,that’s why they put mines and dig tunnels to stop the Egyptian attacks , if Shamel plan was applied , all IDF forces would be destroyed ,that’s why U.S threatened Egypt .
Again I wasn't talking about the situation in December but two months earlier….
Don't get me wrong, I have respect for the Egyptians who fought with great courage and, occasionally, great effectiveness. But one ought to be brutally realistic and self critical, otherwise you'll never learn from experience.