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    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War

    starman
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    Post  starman on Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:52 pm

    OK three questions:

    What is the total number of Israeli jets shot down by arab fighters in October 1973?

    What was the true outcome of the October 14, 1973 air battle ("battle of Mansoura")?

    How many IAF jets were knocked down by SAMs in that war?
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    Post  ahmedfire on Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:38 pm

    Well it depends on which sources you gonna for .

    At the end the war is about the land , if you took the land then you win even if you lost more hardware and soldiers .

    Of course we can't neglect that US started the operation Nickel Grass to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the war. In 32 days, the U.S. Air Force shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft .

    Many Egyptian soldiers saw an Israeli tanks with 100 km meter which means it's just came from US factories .

    Actually Israelis aircrafts and tanks were superior in range and firepower and replacement for the destroyed one .

    So taking 60,000 km2 in such circumstances is a victory .
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    Post  starman on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:23 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:Well it depends on which sources you gonna for .

    Previously you said the IAF lost 140 jets to SAMs and 17 went down in the air battle on the 14th. If you read Pollack and Cooper your get a different take entirely.


    Many Egyptian soldiers saw an Israeli tanks with 100 km meter which means it's just came from US factories .

    Israelis reported some Syrian tanks had only 50km on the clock.

    Actually Israelis aircrafts and tanks were superior in range and firepower and replacement for the destroyed one .

    They were superior to arab counterparts.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:16 pm

    Previously you said the IAF lost 140 jets to SAMs and 17 went down in the air battle on the 14th. If you read Pollack and Cooper your get a different take entirely.

    Yes and Pollback will convince me also that US went to liberate Iraq and destroy her WMD , not going for oil of course.

    He also said that the second wave was cancelled because the high loss of the first wave but David Nicolle said it was cancelled because first wave was succeesful , he also said that Mansurah air battle was a great vectory to Egypt !

    Actually Israel's tactics to attack the airports were expected by Egyptians .

    Israel's plan depended on three stages , first is a wave of fighters to draw the Egyptian interceptors away from the target they need to destroy . Second stage was the suppression wave with an escort designed to crush the Egyptian air defences .Third would be the main attacking force to destroy the targets .

    First they sent 20 Phantom and when Egyptian radars noticed that , the Air force commander gave order for 16 Mig-21 to make a defence umberlla but not go far and search for Israeli's aircrafts (because he knows the goal of first enemy wave ) .


    After some time ,IAF sent more 60 aircrafts F-4E & A-4 , EAF satrted to intercept them using 40 Mig-21 aircraft

    IDF again sent more Phantoms and skeyhawks ,EAF sent more MIGs to intercept them .

    In total there were 120 Israeli aircrafts and 62 Egyptian aircrafts .

    Israeli's sources said they lost 7 aircrafts and downed 15 EAF aircrafts, ok let's assume that's true, so what ? is that a victory ?! I mean 120 VS 62 and they failed to destoy the airports or to destroy the EAF although IAF had the advantages in numbers ,range and armament ?! well that's a total failure . of course i believe the EAF reports that 17 IDF and 6 EAF were destroyed and that's a double victory to EAF .

    No need for  Pollack and Cooper  because i met the guys who did the battle and listened to them with a lot of passion .


    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen59

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen60

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen61



    They were superior to arab counterparts.

    Of course , they had Phantom that was superior over Mig-21 in Payload (7:1) and range( one hour flight for MIG , 4 hours for Phantom ) and radar detection range.

    Add to this that US was supplying Israel with new aircrafts to replace the destroyed one which means Isreal's failure was doubled because they had everything to defeat Egypt and keep Sinai occupied but they couldn't do that .
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    Post  starman on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:53 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Yes and Pollback will convince me also that US went to liberate Iraq and destroy her WMD , not going for oil of course.

    Pollack relied on Arab and Israeli sources. It's true that much of his other writings are garbage, but his views on arab-Israeli fighting, while not perfect, appear fairly objective.

    He also said that the second wave was cancelled because the high loss of the first wave but David Nicolle said it was cancelled because first wave was succeesful , he also said that Mansurah air battle was a great vectory to Egypt !

    Where did Nicolle say that? Wasn't he just quoting arab sources?


    After some time ,IAF sent more 60 aircrafts F-4E & A-4 , EAF satrted to intercept them using 40 Mig-21 aircraft

    IDF again sent more Phantoms and skeyhawks ,EAF sent more MIGs to intercept them .

    In total there were 120 Israeli aircrafts and 62 Egyptian aircrafts .

    I've seen that version in the ACIG and certain books but the latest research, in Cooper's The First Nuclear War... says the IAF attacking force totaled only about 27 Phantoms.


    Israeli's sources said they lost 7 aircrafts

    No, they say they lost just 1 Phantom, shot down by accident. In my opinion the claim that it was downed by a Mirage by mistake is fishy, but Cooper didn't challenge this version.

    of course i believe the EAF reports that 17 IDF and 6 EAF were destroyed and that's a double victory to EAF .

    Cooper says there's no good evidence for any of the EAF claims of the 14th. I mean, where is the wreckage of just one Phantom, downed and photographed that day? His book shows Israeli photos of Wakeel's MIG-21 being downed.

    No need for  Pollack and Cooper  because i met the guys who did the battle and listened from them with a lot of passion .

    Cooper interviewed them too. By the way, I first saw those pics in Both Sides of the Suez back in 1975. Smile



    Add to this that US was supplying Israel with new aircrafts to replace the destroyed one which means Isreal's failure was doubled because they had everything to defeat Egypt and keep Sinai occupied but they couldn't do that .

    Egypt was lucky the war didn't continue beyond the 24th….
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    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:48 pm

    Pollack relied on Arab and Israeli sources. It's true that much of his other writings are garbage, but his views on arab-Israeli fighting, while not perfect, appear fairly objective.

    Most of details in the Egyptian books he didn't mention ,what makes difference for his views over Arab-Israel conflict ?

    He is a former CIA  , may be he was upset because Egypt destroyed the CIA rented oil rig  "Kenting " for Israel , was destroyed in the presence of CIA agents in Abidjan Laughing

    Most of the books from every source said that Egypt first attack wave was suceeded , so when Pollack come and say no ,so it shows how much he is biased .

    Where did Nicolle say that? Wasn't he just quoting arab sources?



    Also he mentioned the same numbers that i said before , in his book .

    I've seen that version in the ACIG and certain books but the latest research, in Cooper's The First Nuclear War... says the IAF attacking force totaled only about 27 Phantoms.

    And Air force commander said the numbers i mentioned and Nicolle  put it in his book .

    No, they say they lost just 1 Phantom, shot down by accident. In my opinion the claim that it was downed by a Mirage by mistake is fishy, but Cooper didn't challenge this version.

    I saw many claims from Israel's side ,their wiki mentioned 100 : 60 aircrafts engaged , 5:2 downed aircrafts .

    Israel thought she can did the same thing of 1967 , attacking Egypt's airports and destroy it but they failed and lost aircrafts .

    Cooper says there's no good evidence for any of the EAF claims of the 14th. I mean, where is the wreckage of just one Phantom, downed and photographed that day? His book shows Israeli photos of Wakeel's MIG-21 being downed.

    Really ? giving random photos at 1973 with bad aircrafts's camera quality ?! ok i can give tens of photos


    Cooper interviewed them too. By the way, I first saw those pics in Both Sides of the Suez back in 1975. Smile

    I don't know whose he interviewed but i checked all Egyptian books which he didn't mention main facts from it , he needs to show he is academic but he is completely biased .

    Egypt was lucky the war didn't continue beyond the 24th….

    Hahahahaha , Israelis tried to occupy Suez , they went with tanks and full armored units and they fight with some policemen and civilians ,IDF lost 80 soldiers and 13 tanks and one armored vehicle ,then they Withdraw lol1

    ِAlso they failed to occupy Ismailya , and then EGY army collected more forces from central area and rebuild some destroyed SAM sites , before ceasefire the EGY forces surrounded IDF forces in west bank , it was 2:1 in quantity for the Egyptians , and EGY forces put the plan to cut the last IDF supplies road ( only 10 km width,IDF supplies should travel 300 km to supply their forces ) and attack the IDF forces with every firepower they got from 5 directions , IAF can't support because the SAMs were built again .

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen62


    Already in this period EGY forces did 439 attacks which caused :

    187 Israeli soldiers get killed
    11 aircrafts shoot down
    41 tanks/armored vehicle get destroyed
    36 bulldozer / engineering unit get destroyed .

    IDF never started the attack in this time ,even rarely they open fire back on EGY forces , simply they were not well prepared for that .

    This only as a result of some attacks on the surrounded IDF . Even after the UN Security Council ceasefire decision , EGY forces attacked and did major losses on IDF , that's why the IDF forces put 750,000 mines on the way to them , they were afraid from the coming attack , but the final ceasefire decision came up .

    The main questions are ;

    Since when Israel agree to ceasefire and withdraw from the area in case if she winning the battle ?!!
    If Israel won so why they withdraw from Sinai 60,000 km2 that consider as a strategic depth for the small Israel area ?

    Israel got the best weapons , unlimited supply from US but they withdrawed from 60,000 km2 which means they failed to do the job .

    Or may be Israel was tolerated enough to the limit that they gave the lands back even in case of they won lol!
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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:22 am

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Previously you said the IAF lost 140 jets to SAMs and 17 went down in the air battle on the 14th. If you read Pollack and Cooper your get a different take entirely.

    Yes and Pollback will convince me also that US went to liberate Iraq and destroy her WMD , not going for oil of course.

    He also said that the second wave was cancelled because the high loss of the first wave but David Nicolle said it was cancelled because first wave was succeesful , he also said that Mansurah air battle was a great vectory to Egypt !

    Actually Israel's tactics to attack the airports were expected by Egyptians .

    Israel's plan depended on three stages , first is a wave of fighters to draw the Egyptian interceptors away from the target they need to destroy . Second stage was the suppression wave with an escort designed to crush the Egyptian air defences .Third would be the main attacking force to destroy the targets .

    First they sent 20 Phantom and when Egyptian radars noticed that , the Air force commander gave order for 16 Mig-21 to make a defence umberlla but not go far and search for Israeli's aircrafts (because he knows the goal of first enemy wave ) .


    After some time ,IAF sent more 60 aircrafts F-4E & A-4 , EAF satrted to intercept them using 40 Mig-21 aircraft

    IDF again sent more Phantoms and skeyhawks ,EAF sent more MIGs to intercept them .

    In total there were 120 Israeli aircrafts and 62 Egyptian aircrafts .

    Israeli's sources said they lost 7 aircrafts and downed 15 EAF aircrafts, ok let's assume that's true, so what ? is that a victory ?! I mean 120 VS 62 and they failed to destoy the airports or to destroy the EAF although IAF had the advantages in numbers ,range and armament ?! well that's a total failure . of course i believe the EAF reports that 17 IDF and 6 EAF were destroyed and that's a double victory to EAF .

    No need for  Pollack and Cooper  because i met the guys who did the battle and listened to them with a lot of passion .


    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen59

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen60

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen61



    They were superior to arab counterparts.

    Of course , they had Phantom that was superior over Mig-21 in Payload (7:1) and range( one hour flight for MIG , 4 hours for Phantom ) and radar detection range.

    Add to this that US was supplying Israel with new aircrafts to replace the destroyed one which means Isreal's failure was doubled because they had everything to defeat Egypt and keep Sinai occupied but they couldn't do that .

    That's a failed surprise attack by israeli.

    I didagree about the f-4 Mig 21 comparison. Mig 21 is an interceptor guided by ground. It doesn't need lot of fuel neither a big radar. Both point would make it a big aircraft. To counter this israeli tactic it was the best plane they could have. Israel come very close to their airbases leting the egyptian have the advantage, many radars that could guide the mig 21 in the 6 of any f4.

    Sending their mig-21 to make an ambrella above their airbases worked but they could have down many more aircraft if they used the mig-21 as it was designed for and let them intercept the phantoms from behind with air defence destroyig the remaining bombers.

    Back in the time they didn't had stand off weapons and needed to come in range of even AAA to make a successful bombing. Egyptian had all they needed on the ground to deal with the bombers. The sa-6 would have destroyed them easily.
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    Post  starman on Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:05 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Most of the books from every source said that Egypt first attack wave was suceeded , so when Pollack come and say no ,so it shows how much he is biased .

    Every source, including Israeli?  Smile

    And Air force commander said the numbers i mentioned and Nicolle  put it in his book .

    Again the most up to date research by Cooper, gives a much different version.


    Israel thought she can did the same thing of 1967 , attacking Egypt's airports and destroy it but they failed and lost aircrafts .

    They knew the situation was different from '67 because of hardened aircraft shelters.


    Really ? giving random photos at 1973 with bad aircrafts's camera quality ?!

    The quality of the pics showing Wakeel's MIG going down in flames was clear enough. But regarding EAF claims I meant photos of Phantom wreckage from the 14th.


    I don't know whose he interviewed but i checked all Egyptian books which he didn't mention main facts from it , he needs to show he is academic but he is completely biased .

    No his latest book is objective, including accounts from IAF pilots and Egyptians like Musa.



    Hahahahaha , Israelis tried to occupy Suez , they went with tanks and full armored units and they fight with some policemen and civilians

    Na, Suez was defended by some men from the 4rth armored division and IIRC 6th mechanized and 19th infantry. They had RPGs which civilians and cops don't have.

    IDF lost 80 soldiers and 13 tanks and one armored vehicle ,then they Withdraw lol1

    They withdrew from Suez but the two divisions in the 3rd army bridgehead were still cut off from supplies. As Dupuy wrote, within a week, logistical strangulation and Israeli bombing would've overcome Badawy's command. (The EAF had to squander a lot of MIG-21s on the 24th because there was no longer any SAM cover for the 3rd.) B the 24th, the Egyptians needed a ceasefire to prevent the destruction of 3rd army.

    ِ
    Also they failed to occupy Ismailya , and then EGY army collected more forces from central area and rebuild some destroyed SAM sites , before ceasefire the EGY forces surrounded IDF forces in west bank , it was 2:1 in quantity for the Egyptians , and EGY forces put the plan to cut the last IDF supplies road ( only 10 km width,IDF supplies should travel 300 km to supply their forces ) and attack the IDF forces with every firepower they got from 5 directions , IAF can't support because the SAMs were built again .

    In November 1973 the Israelis pulled many units out of their bridgehead and sent them back to Sinai where they could more directly confront the 3rd army bridgehead. The Egyptians had a plan to wipe out the depleted Israeli forces west of the canal, but it was a risky proposition given the precarious state of 3rd army. Cairo was wise to opt for a political settlement.

    This only as a result of some attacks on the surrounded IDF . Even after the UN Security Council ceasefire decision , EGY forces attacked and did major losses on IDF , that's why the IDF forces put 750,000 mines on the way to them , they were afraid from the coming attack , but the final ceasefire decision came up .

    I don't think the mines were laid until November. In the last few days of the war, Ismail wanted Kabil to break through to Suez and relieve the 3rd but Kabil was very reluctant. The Israelis in fact stopped one or more attempts by the 4rth, which was gravely depleted by the 23rd.

    The main questions are ;

    Since when Israel agree to ceasefire and withdraw from the area in case if she winning the battle ?!!

    Political pressure, from Washington as well as the UN. The Israelis wanted to continue the war to finish the 3rd and were disgusted it was stopped.

    If Israel won so why they withdraw from Sinai 60,000 km2 that consider as a strategic depth for the small Israel area ?

    US pressure and Egypt's decision to make a separate peace...

    Israel got the best weapons , unlimited supply from US but they withdrawed from 60,000 km2 which means they failed to do the job .

    Militarily they did well but dependence on the US meant they had to go along.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:47 pm

    That's a failed surprise attack by israeli.

    I didagree about the f-4 Mig 21 comparison. Mig 21 is an interceptor guided by ground. It doesn't need lot of fuel neither a big radar. Both point would make it a big aircraft. To counter this israeli tactic it was the best plane they could have. Israel come very close to their airbases leting the egyptian have the advantage, many radars that could guide the mig 21 in the 6 of any f4.

    Sending their mig-21 to make an ambrella above their airbases worked but they could have down many more aircraft if they used the mig-21 as it was designed for and let them intercept the phantoms from behind with air defence destroyig the remaining bombers.

    Back in the time they didn't had stand off weapons and needed to come in range of even AAA to make a successful bombing. Egyptian had all they needed on the ground to deal with the bombers. The sa-6 would have destroyed them easily.

    Yes the Egyptians used Mig-21 as an interceptor and to protect the bombers .

    This air battle lasts for 53 minutes which was a problem for the MIGs to staned all this in the air without refueling  but it was organized for some aircrafts to go for refueling and then exchange with others .There were no much AD forces in the area , most of them were on the canal .

    By the way they were shocked from SA-6 . US asked them to capture it to check it .

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen63


    Last edited by ahmedfire on Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:18 pm

    Every source, including Israeli?  Smile

    Mossad chief in Yom Kippur War said that A week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks

    https://www.ynetnews.com/magazine/article/BJJBcbL0H

    He also said that Israel gave some fake reports to US about “Israel is more cabable in the war “ because “as he said” US is backing the winning side. That illustrates the Israeli’s propaganda about the war .

    Again the most up to date research by Cooper, gives a much different version.

    Yes and that’s up to him , you asked for Nicolle  and I post his video but now you don’t believe him !


    They knew the situation was different from '67 because of hardened aircraft shelters.
    Not all aircrafts were inside shelters and it was enough for Israelis if they could destroy the airports itself and ground radars to get the aircrafts out of service for a month at least , but they failed too to do that .


    The quality of the pics showing Wakeel's MIG going down in flames was clear enough. But regarding EAF claims I meant photos of Phantom wreckage from the 14th.

    There are tens of Phantom photos which destroyed , you can choose some of them and consider it was from 14th ,the same what Israel did .


    No his latest book is objective, including accounts from IAF pilots and Egyptians like Musa.


    The normal pilot didn’t know how much in total aircrafts that were destroyed from both sides , he can tell you what happened with him only ,so he didn’t mention any numbers from Egyptian books , he listened only to some stories .


    Na, Suez was defended by some men from the 4rth armored division and IIRC 6th mechanized and 19th infantry. They had RPGs which civilians and cops don't have.
    There were neither EGY tanks , armored vehicles nor anti tank teams , only some civilians with some old RPGs , all Israel sources said it was a big mistake to try to conquer Suez , 80 Israeli soldiers were killed ( including 20 tank commanders ) . Also some Egyptian  policemen were killed .


    They withdrew from Suez but the two divisions in the 3rd army bridgehead were still cut off from supplies. As Dupuy wrote, within a week, logistical strangulation and Israeli bombing would've overcome Badawy's command. (The EAF had to squander a lot of MIG-21s on the 24th because there was no longer any SAM cover for the 3rd.) B the 24th, the Egyptians needed a ceasefire to prevent the destruction of 3rd army.
    In November 1973 the Israelis pulled many units out of their bridgehead and sent them back to Sinai where they could more directly confront the 3rd army bridgehead. The Egyptians had a plan to wipe out the depleted Israeli forces west of the canal, but it was a risky proposition given the precarious state of 3rd army. Cairo was wise to opt for a political settlement.

    This was before the rearrangement of Egyptian air defences and surround the Israeli force(that surrounded some Egyptian forces ) , The Egyptian forces that were dedicated to attack the IDF forces (that surrounded another EGY forces) had the advantage in numbers ( 2 :1 ) in all type of weapons which gave Egyptians a very good chance to start the attack from 5 directions on the Israeli forces , at that time as I said before EGY forces did

    439 attack

    in total on the surrounded enemy forces which caused :

    187 Israeli soldiers get killed
    11 aircrafts shoot down
    41 tanks/armored vehicle get destroyed
    36 bulldozer / engineering unit get destroyed .

    That’s why Israelis digged tunnels (width 7m and depth 5 m) to prevent the EGY tanks from attacking them , they also put 750,000 anti armor mines , this is a situation of forces that tried to defend themselves from Egyptian's attacks , IDF was waiting the ceasefire to avoid being killed ,even after ceasefire the Egyptians did some hits (but Israelis didn’t) which means Egyptians  were in a good situation.

    So IDF failed to occupy any city in the west of canal , his forces get surrounded with bigger Egyptian forces which start a separated attacks and IDF put his forces in a defence position waiting for the ceasefire to withdraw his forces from the Egyptian trap , if there is no ceasefire ,Egyptians would destroy 3 IDF armored divisions . Twisted Evil

    Political pressure, from Washington as well as the UN. The Israelis wanted to continue the war to finish the 3rd and were disgusted it was stopped.
    US pressure and Egypt's decision to make a separate peace...

    Is this the same US that sent durin war 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel ?  lol!

    And why they kept Golan heights occupied ? Egypt already offered a peace talks before the war and IDF minister laughed , refused and said why we should negotiate with them , after war i guess he regret for that laugh .  Twisted Evil



    US knew the situation by satellite images , they know IDF was surrounded in the west and kissinger threatened directly the Egyptian president " if you attacked the Israeli forces on the west , we "U.S" will attack you ".

    Militarily they did well but dependence on the US meant they had to go along.
    They depended on Uncle sam for help but they also failed .
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:46 am

    Again the most up to date research by Cooper, gives a much different version.

    I remember chatting to Tom on a forum in the 2000s.... I think it was the Key Publishing forum... I think his username was Coop, sounded like the usual American ex Navy guy... thought the F-14 was wonderful, but ironically that seemed to have led to him not hating the Iranians as much as most American military types did and do. That is the problem with the west... you have to keep up to date to know who is the current bad guy and who is not... lots of Americans got caught out with 11/9... one day they were helping the Taleban fighting the pro soviet side in Afghanistan and then the next day they were the bad guys... make sure you have a seat when the music stops or you could be in trouble...

    He also hated the MiG-29 with a passion... honestly I didn't really have much time for the guy... he was a stereotype and didn't always seem so interested in the truth... he seemed to apply the old measure of if it sounded too good to be true then it was probably a lie, while anything bad about Soviet or Russian technology must be true.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Again the most up to date research by Cooper, gives a much different version.

    I remember chatting to Tom on a forum in the 2000s.... I think it was the Key Publishing forum... I think his username was Coop, sounded like the usual American ex Navy guy... thought the F-14 was wonderful, but ironically that seemed to have led to him not hating the Iranians as much as most American military types did and do. That is the problem with the west... you have to keep up to date to know who is the current bad guy and who is not... lots of Americans got caught out with 11/9... one day they were helping the Taleban fighting the pro soviet side in Afghanistan and then the next day they were the bad guys... make sure you have a seat when the music stops or you could be in trouble...

    He also hated the MiG-29 with a passion... honestly I didn't really have much time for the guy... he was a stereotype and didn't always seem so interested in the truth... he seemed to apply the old measure of if it sounded too good to be true then it was probably a lie, while anything bad about Soviet or Russian technology must be true.

    I used to think that there was a spectrum of opinions in the USA by experts. But in reality the range of opinions is absurdly narrow.
    The existence of a few outliers who are more balanced does not outweigh the chauvinist idiocy rotting the exceptional American mind.
    Their ignorance of basic history and reality of their supposed target of analysis is mind-numbing.

    The problem is that their jobs depend on singing the right song to the right tune. They can be 100% wrong, but that is not what
    matters. The US really is the King without clothes.
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    Post  starman on Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:48 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:Mossad chief in Yom Kippur War said that A week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks


    Those figures probably include jets and tanks put out of action only temporarily. "..pounded from Egypt, Syria and Jordan." Laughing Jordan wasn't a participant at the time, except for a few reinforcements for Syria.



    Not all aircrafts were inside shelters and it was enough for Israelis if they could destroy the airports itself and ground radars to get the aircrafts out of service for a month at least , but they failed too to do that .


    They cratered runways but they were easily repaired.



    There are tens of Phantom photos which destroyed , you can choose some of them and consider it was from 14th ,the same what Israel did .


    One photo shows a Phantom downed on the 18th, probably part of "cracker barrel." But the Egyptians showed no photos of a Phantom downed on the 14th, even though 4-17 were claimed.




    There were neither EGY tanks , armored vehicles nor anti tank teams , only some civilians with some old RPGs


    There were no tanks or saggers but men from the 19th and 4rth divisions who had RPGs.


    This was before the rearrangement of Egyptian air defences and surround the Israeli force(that surrounded some Egyptian forces ) , The Egyptian forces that were dedicated to attack the IDF forces (that surrounded another EGY forces) had the advantage in numbers ( 2 :1 ) in all type of weapons which gave Egyptians a very good chance to start the attack from 5 directions on the Israeli forces , at that time as I said before EGY forces did


    But preparations to crush the Israeli bridgehead west of the canal took time; at the end of the war the Egypt, or the 3rd army specifically,  was in a desperate situation.



    439 attack

    n total on the surrounded enemy forces which caused :

    187 Israeli soldiers get killed
    11 aircrafts shoot down
    41 tanks/armored vehicle get destroyed
    36 bulldozer / engineering unit get destroyed .


    What units carried out these attacks and what were Egyptian losses? As I wrote before, the 4rth armored and 6th mechanized suffered high losses at the end of the war, largely in failed attempts to break through.


    That’s why Israelis digged tunnels (width 7m and depth 5 m) to prevent the EGY tanks from attacking them , they also put 750,000 anti armor mines , this is a situation of forces that tried to defend themselves from Egyptian's attacks , IDF was waiting the ceasefire to avoid being killed ,even after ceasefire the Egyptians did some hits (but Israelis didn’t) which means Egyptians  were in a good situation.


    That might've been true by December but not in late October...


    ... if there is no ceasefire ,Egyptians would destroy 3 IDF armored divisions .


    How and with what units??? The 4rth armored and 6th mechanized had been gravely depleted by the 24th. If the Egyptians had the capability to destroy three IDF divisions late in October, how on Earth did the Israelis advance far enough south to trap 3rd army?



    Is this the same US that sent durin war 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel ?  


    Both superpowers resupplied their clients.



    US knew the situation by satellite images , they know IDF was surrounded in the west and kissinger threatened directly the Egyptian president " if you attacked the Israeli forces on the west , we "U.S" will attack you ".


    He said that in December when the Egyptians had recovered enough to contemplate Shamel--or whatever the plan was called.




    They depended on Uncle sam for help but they also failed .


    In a purely military sense they won.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:18 pm

    Those figures probably include jets and tanks put out of action only temporarily. "..pounded from Egypt, Syria and Jordan."   Jordan wasn't a participant at the time, except for a few reinforcements for Syria.

    Bro, it’s not me who declared that “a week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks “, this declaration said by the Mossad Chief who was responsible during the war , so you don’t believe the Mossad chief but believe Cooper  lol1


    Mossad chief didn’t say that Jordan started attack at the begining of the war , no but he is commenting NOW on 1973 war , he means Jordan participated in a way in the war but he didn’t say they started with Egypt and Syria .

    In 8 october , Assaf Yaguri led his 190th armored battalion trying to break the Egyptian points on the canal , all the tanks were destroyed  except 8 tanks which were captured , the commander Assaf Yaguri was captured too . The funny thing that when EGY army declared that Assaf Yaguri was captured Israel denied that then a reporter did a record with Yaguri who said all details even about his family and personnel life which proved that he was captured , later  He was released after 46 days in a prisoner exchange.

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen66


    Some Israelis soldiers confessions



    They cratered runways but they were easily repaired.

    As I said many of aircrafts at that area were not  inside shelters . The point is Israeli’s tactics had failed in Mansourah air battle ,they failed to destroy the airports and they failed to destroy the EAF aircrafts like 1967 .


    One photo shows a Phantom downed on the 18th, probably part of "cracker barrel." But the Egyptians showed no photos of a Phantom downed on the 14th, even though 4-17 were claimed.

    Neither Israel nor Egypt had all photos for the downed aircrafts from the other side ,simply many incidents were not filmed or recorded.


    There were no tanks or saggers but men from the 19th and 4rth divisions who had RPGs.

    Most of them were from a civilian resistance who were organized into militias with RPGs and they killed tens of IDF soldiers and destroyed tens of tanks .

    Arab performance in 1973 Yom Kippur War Screen67


    But preparations to crush the Israeli bridgehead west of the canal took time; at the end of the war the Egypt, or the 3rd army specifically,  was in a desperate situation.
    Of course rebuilding ths SAM sites and bringing more forces from central area in cairo would take time , but at the end it happened and IAF can’t support their troops on the west bank , these troops were surrounded by double number Egyptian forces and started shelling ,bombing them separately with in total 439 attack ,after that Israel quickly agreed for the ceasefire (they rejected it before because they had advantage before the Egyptian forces were recollected and the and SAM sites rebuilt ) .


    What units carried out these attacks and what were Egyptian losses? As I wrote before, the 4rth armored and 6th mechanized suffered high losses at the end of the war, largely in failed attempts to break through.

    Israel at the end of the war had 3 armored divisions on the west( many tanks were destroyed) +some parachute force and mechanized force , these forces did a succeeded attack and crossed from east to west bank and surrounded forces from 3rd army , they thought it was a strategic move (also Egyptians thought it was ) but EGY army put a plan to counter that attack , a big forces consisted of the double of the Israeli one ,were collected and organized as below :

    Two armored divisions (3,21).
    Three mechanized infantry divisions (3,6,23).
    Units from special forces (saqa )
    Units from parachute forces .
    Additional armored units from central area in cairo .

    The Egyptian situation had an advantage by collection these forces and coming around the IDF forces , so IDF couldn’t attack the 3 rd army because that IDF forces were being attacked by the Egyptian forces .

    That might've been true by December but not in late October...
    Bro I didn’t say it was in October , it was in the end of the war .


    How and with what units??? The 4rth armored and 6th mechanized had been gravely depleted by the 24th. If the Egyptians had the capability to destroy three IDF divisions late in October, how on Earth did the Israelis advance far enough south to trap 3rd army?

    You misunderstanded me, I was talking about the late in December not October , I already said they crossed the canal .

    Both superpowers resupplied their clients.
    Do you know that the Egyptian president in july/1972 driven out the whole soviet army experts from Egypt ? look at this it was a crazy decision , I mean the guy’s land was occupied and he driven out his closest ally who can supply him with weapons ,can Israel do that with uncle sam ?
    Egypt didn’t receive that big amount of weapons that Israel received from US , also Soviets were SELLING  weapons to Egypt but US was GIVING weapons to Israel ,big difference .

    He said that in December when the Egyptians had recovered enough to contemplate Shamel--or whatever the plan was called..
    Yes .
    In a purely military sense they won.
    In some fights they did but in total they failed to restore the situation to before 6 october ,their forces were surrounded on the west which  was worse if it was fighting in the east , shamel plan was about to start but US threatened to hit directly the Egyptian army if the last started the plan .
    Israel didn’t feel the real peace until they signed the peace treaty with Egypt , simply Israel is small enough to stay in a war for a long time and receive a serious hits , that burn Israel from inside .
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:22 pm

    This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question. The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value. It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:37 pm

    Today is the memorial of Bahr El-Baqar primary school bombing , killing 46 children .


    At 8-April-1970 , Israel's Phantom bombed a primary Egyptian school killing 46 children in a small village .
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:41 pm

    kvs wrote:This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question.   The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value.   It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.

    The western stories depend on Israel's story only and US doesn't need stories that proves the Soviets/Russians weapons could be superior to western one , they need to claim that anyone who use US arms can defeat anyone who use Soviets/Russian arms .
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:18 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:

    Today is the memorial of Bahr El-Baqar primary school bombing , killing 46 children .



    At 8-April-1970 , Israel's Phantom bombed a primary Egyptian school killing 46 children in a small village .

    This was no mistake. This is standard terror tactics.

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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:21 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    kvs wrote:This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question.   The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value.   It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.

    The western stories depend on Israel's story only and US doesn't need stories that proves the Soviets/Russians weapons could be superior to western one , they need to claim that anyone who use US arms can defeat anyone who use Soviets/Russian arms .

    Yes, the story is always a slave to agendas and is thus not worth anything. The problem for Egypt and others is that the USSR had pro-Israel elements
    that leaked information. I think Russia is more reliable today but it cannot be an outright enemy of Israel since that means NATzO is going to be stoked
    for war. Thankfully, NATzO is getting weaker each year, starting with the main dog, America.

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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:23 pm

    This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question. The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value. It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.

    I would like more an article that respect the timeline than a discussion on a forum. Like the wikipedia article but with egyptian view.

    But it's nice to have Ahmedfire telling some facts.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:03 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    kvs wrote:This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question.   The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value.   It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.

    The western stories depend on Israel's story only and US doesn't need stories that proves the Soviets/Russians weapons could be superior to western one , they need to claim that anyone who use US arms can defeat anyone who use Soviets/Russian arms .

    Good work explaining the buried history of the Yom Kippur war. BTW what do you make of comments such as these?

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t963p550-t-72-modernisation-and-variants#269314

    And

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t963p550-t-72-modernisation-and-variants#269346


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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    kvs wrote:This thread is useful for enlightening all those who only heard the western story about the events in question.   The western
    story, as a rule, should never be taken at face value.   It is routinely loaded with propaganda agendas and bald faced fabrications.

    The western stories depend on Israel's story only and US doesn't need stories that proves the Soviets/Russians weapons could be superior to western one , they need to claim that anyone who use US arms can defeat anyone who use Soviets/Russian arms .

    Good work explaining the buried history of the Yom Kippur war. BTW what do you make of comments such as these?

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t963p550-t-72-modernisation-and-variants#269314

    And

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t963p550-t-72-modernisation-and-variants#269346



    I prefer to reply here to not deviate the thread from it's subject .

    Before the war , Egyptian intelligence knew exactly the cababilities of IDF , they even sent a double agent inside Dimona nuclear reactor.

    They knew that Israeli tanks are superior in firepower range that's why the plan was to try to avoid the direct tank to tank engagement . When Egyptians crossed the Bar lev line and the |Israeli tanks start the counter attack ,they didn't find the Egyptian tanks directly ,that was weird for them , but they found tens of ATGM hitting their tanks , a new technique that allow the normal soldier to face a tank alone.

    For the tanks , Egyptian used it most of the time as a mobile canons behind the ATGM teams to move with the forces and give fire support , but of course they can't prevent the tanks to meet each other ,so in most tank-tank fights Egyptians tried to turn around to get near to IDF tanks to minimze their advantage of firing range . Egyptian plan was to cross the Bar Lev Line and advance to 12 km inside Sinai and stop till they can move their SAMs and forces from west to east bank but here Egyptian president did a big mistake.

    When the Egyptians stopped at 12 km and start moving the tanks and soldiers to the west , Israel pushed the Syrians their on the battlefront , IDF see the Egyptian's battlefront is still so long for Egyptians to make a serious threat to Israeli cities (long desert ) but Syria's battlefront was very near to the north of Israel , that's why IDF concentrated his attacks there and after some days the situation was bad for the syrians .

    Syrian president asked Egyptian president to resume the attack to get IDF busy from Syria's battlefront but Egyptians didn't move their SAMs yet to the east so the Egyptian commanders told the president we can't advance now , the IAF will hit our forces , we should move the AD first but Egyptian president insisted to move the forces without SAM cover( same what Turkey did for their forces inside Syria ).

    It was a political decision , Egyptian president just wanted to get IDF busy to less the pressure on syria , but as expected the IAF bombed the forces that moved and we lost many tanks that day , it wasn't anything clever form IDF but a stupid political decision from Egyptian president , the Egypian commanders were upset on the president ,one of them shouted on him . This led to the crossing of IDF units from a weak point to the west bank trying to occupy two cities (they failed) and surround the Egyptian units , later the Egyptian did a counter attack and surrounded the IDF units on the west , did serious hits on them and was ready for the final attack to destroy three IDF  armored divisions , US thratened Egypt that US army will hit directly the Egyptians if they started the attack on the IDF forces and the ceasefire was agreed .

    During negotiations Israel requested to keep the last area on the borders occupied (city of Taba), it's only 1km area , Egypt replied that it will go for war again till the last meter , Israelis gave back because they are good only in bombing schools and hospitals .
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    Post  starman on Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:12 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    It was a political decision , Egyptian president just wanted to get IDF busy to less the pressure on syria , but as expected the IAF bombed the forces that moved and we lost many tanks that day


    Air power was not the decisive factor on the 14th. It was a problem in the wadi Mabouk, about which I've blogged, but not much in other sectors, where the main problem was IDF armor. But as Cooper has written, the offensive of the 14th was essentially a "show" offensive. The Egyptian generals, who opposed Sadat's attack order as suicidal, committed as few forces as possible to prevent really disastrous losses. As Israeli sources have conceded, claims that Egypt lost 250 tanks are exaggerated.

    it wasn't anything clever form IDF but a stupid political decision from Egyptian president , the Egypian commanders were upset on the president ,one of them shouted on him .

    Laughing Right.


    This led to the crossing of IDF units from a weak point to the west bank trying to occupy two cities (they failed) and surround the Egyptian units , later the Egyptian did a counter attack and surrounded the IDF units on the west ,

    What counterattack surrounded the Israeli units? As I wrote, Kabil was very reluctant to attack with his battered division and was stopped.


    did serious hits on them and was ready for the final attack to destroy three IDF  armored divisions , US threatened Egypt that US army will hit directly the Egyptians if they started the attack on the IDF forces and the ceasefire was agreed .

    No the ceasefire was in late October. In January, after the possibility of shamel, the disengagement agreement was signed.
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    Post  starman on Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:31 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Bro, it’s not me who declared that “a week after the war, Israel had lost a third of its Air Force and a third of its tanks “, this declaration said by the Mossad Chief who was responsible during the war

    I didn't say you did. But figures I've seen in books over the years indicate Israel lost about 100 jets--between 1/4 and 1/3 of its airforce, and 400 tanks lost irrecoverably, or about a fourth of its original tank force. Btw I knew about yaguri since it happened in '73.


    As I said many of aircrafts at that area were not  inside shelters . The point is Israeli’s tactics had failed in Mansourah air battle ,they failed to destroy the airports and they failed to destroy the EAF aircrafts like 1967 .

    Of course many weren't in shelters as they rose to fight the enemy. But the EAF originally built shelters because it had only limited confidence in the ability of its AD to repel attacks. Airfields may not have been put out of action permanently but they were hit often.


    Neither Israel nor Egypt had all photos for the downed aircrafts from the other side ,simply many incidents were not filmed or recorded.


    Israel showed at least one pic of a jet downed over Ras nasrani--and Egypt doesn't have a single pic of an IAF jet downed near Mansourah on the 14th, of the 17 supposedly downed... Smile


    Two armored divisions (3,21).

    A 3rd armored division? Laughing  In '73 Egypt had two armored divisions, the 21st and 4rth.



    Do you know that the Egyptian president in july/1972 driven out the whole soviet army experts from Egypt ?

    Of course! I read about it as a kid back then. Smile

    look at this it was a crazy decision , I mean the guy’s land was occupied and he driven out his closest ally who can supply him with weapons ,


    It's my understanding that the Egyptian generals liked the decision because it enabled them to plan and prepare in their own way without interference.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:53 pm

    Air power was not the decisive factor on the 14th. It was a problem in the wadi Mabouk, about which I've blogged, but not much in other sectors, where the main problem was IDF armor. But as Cooper has written, the offensive of the 14th was essentially a "show" offensive. The Egyptian generals, who opposed Sadat's attack order as suicidal, committed as few forces as possible to prevent really disastrous losses. As Israeli sources have conceded, claims that Egypt lost 250 tanks are exaggerated.

    Air power was a main factor + when Egyptian forces advanced they left their effective tactics to engage with enemy tanks , before they put ATGM teams first under SAMs protection then tanks behind them , that did very well at the begining but when they advanced out of SAM coverage after the Syrian president pushed Egypt president to advance, so the ATGM teams can't work as the begining because IAF would target them so the tanks advanced and did a battle with enemy's tanks which were superior in detection range and firepower and supported by IAF in the absence of Egyptian SAM coverage ,Egyptians lost a lot of tanks that day and they destroyed less Israeli tanks .  

    A 3rd armored division? Laughing  In '73 Egypt had two armored divisions, the 21st and 4rth.

    Yes i do mean 4,21 not 3,21 & the number 3 was in the three mechanized infantry divisions (3,6,23), but in total i said 2 armored divisions  Rolling Eyes

    What counterattack surrounded the Israeli units? As I wrote, Kabil was very reluctant to attack with his battered division and was stopped.

    Actually Kabil did lead one Division (4th) but this one division face the three IDF armored divisions but IDF failed to destroy it lol!  , so three divisions vs one and they failed also to occupy the high hills in the area so IDF forces were stuck in the area , can't occupy any city as planned before (from october to december ) and can't advance more to deep , his supply's road was long 300 km and can't secure it , Egyptian forces was about to cut (at Shamel plan) the only 7:10 km width gap where the IDF get supplies from it and Egyptians prepared double the force of IDF and were ready for that . Israelis in our land , we have double of their forces ,Israelis forces were under Egyptian artillery range and being shelled , SAM coverage became active so this was perfect for the Egyptians to do the final attack to completely finish the IDF forces.

    Already some Congress men visited the field and they got the confirmation that IDF forces were stuck there .
    Actually US is the one who pushed IDF to cross the canal from begining ,when US also threatened Egypt at the end not to attack the  Israeli forces ,so you would be sure that IDF was stuck  .


    The Israeli military position became weak for different reasons, "One, Israel now had a large force (about six or seven brigades) in a very limited area of land, surrounded from all sides either by natural or man-made barriers, or by the Egyptian forces. This put it in a weak position. Moreover, there were the difficulties in supplying this force, in evacuating it, in the lengthy communication lines, and in the daily attrition in men and equipment. Two, to protect these troops, the Israeli command had to allocate other forces (four or five brigades) to defend the entrances to the breach at the Deversoir. Three, to immobilize the Egyptian bridgeheads in Sinai the Israeli command had to allocate ten brigades to face the Second and Third army bridgeheads. In addition, it became necessary to keep the strategic reserves at their maximum state of alert. Thus, Israel was obliged to keep its armed force-and consequently the country-mobilized for a long period, at least until the war came to an end, because the ceasefire did not signal the end of the war.  For those reasons and according to IDF minister Dayan, "It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives." The Egyptian forces didn't pull to the west and held onto their positions east of the canal controlling both shores of the Suez Canal. None of the Canal's main cities were occupied by Israel.

    It's so simple , it doesn't matter you are in my land or in your land ,Nazis went to Soviets land but Nazis lost .It was planned to attack the IDF in the east bank but IDF make it harder on himself and crossed to the east which means the supply roads got longer and hard to be secured , means also you are in your enemy's land where he can support his forces faster so what IDF thought as an advantage ,it  turned over to a big trap.


    That's why US thretened Egypt if the last started the attack against IDF stucked forces . Laughing



    No the ceasefire was in late October. In January, after the possibility of shamel, the disengagement agreement was signed.

    I was talking about December not late October so it's obvious i mean that agreemet , also in October there were two ceasefire .Of course they will stop firing first before the agreement , don't stop on such small points ,it's useless  Smile

    It's my understanding that the Egyptian generals liked the decision because it enabled them to plan and prepare in their own way without interference.

    No it was a big dangerous decision to treat your ally like that .

    I didn't say you did. But figures I've seen in books over the years indicate Israel lost about 100 jets--between 1/4 and 1/3 of its airforce, and 400 tanks lost irrecoverably, or about a fourth of its original tank force. Btw I knew about yaguri since it happened in '73.

    So you need to check Egyptian books  lol1  , This is your Mossad chief ,he was responsible , or may be he was sleeping during the war . Very Happy


    Of course many weren't in shelters as they rose to fight the enemy. But the EAF originally built shelters because it had only limited confidence in the ability of its AD to repel attacks. Airfields may not have been put out of action permanently but they were hit often.

    Shelters are necessary regardless you have good AD or not . IDF plan was to destroy the aircrafts and airport and failed to do that , that's simple ,Nicolle said that and you were not aware that he did .

    Israel showed at least one pic of a jet downed over Ras nasrani--and Egypt doesn't have a single pic of an IAF jet downed near Mansourah on the 14th, of the 17 supposedly downed... Smile

    Lol one photo  lol1  ok did they showed all photos of the downed Egyptian aircrafts ? no because as i said before neither Israel nor Egypt had all photos for the downed aircrafts from the other side ,simply many incidents were not filmed or recorded.

    The point is why IAF who had advanced aircrafts and more numbers but FAILED to destroy the Egyptian airports and aircrafts .

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