Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+53
SaneBomber
lancelot
old_man
ATLASCUB
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
PhSt
elconquistador
Backman
The_Observer
dino00
lyle6
Kiko
Tai Hai Chen
nero
Maximmmm
franco
LMFS
KoTeMoRe
Regular
The Ottoman
JohninMK
Tsavo Lion
medo
miketheterrible
Werewolf
lulldapull
crod
starman
Cyberspec
RTN
d_taddei2
par far
flamming_python
PapaDragon
BKP
SeigSoloyvov
nomadski
kvs
Manov
jhelb
Big_Gazza
ultimatewarrior
Mindstorm
Rodion_Romanovic
ahmedfire
Vann7
George1
DerWolf
Isos
magnumcromagnon
Hole
GarryB
slasher
57 posters

    Syrian War: News #22

    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 455
    Points : 432
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  RTN Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:19 am

    Isos wrote:Yes and they are hard to jam since delilah mostly work alone with quick final guidance from the aircraft operator.
    Popey is inertial guidnace with IIR final guidance so unjammable.
    Yes. These missiles can’t be jammed.
    Syrians are fortunate that Israel doesn’t have munition like HAMMER. The HAMMER is rocket powered and the HAMMER comes with a variety of optional terminal guidance kits that can just be fitted on to the main body of the PGM, i.e. TV-guided, laser-guided & IR-guided sensors + GPS navigation.
    Now imagine launching 9-10 HAMMERS. One that is laser guided, another TV guided a third GPS guided. How will BUK, Pantsir-S1 intercept a volley of such missiles that have such vivid guidance?
    Israeli drones will carry out stand in jamming before Israeli fighters launch such missiles. Impossible for Syrian air defense to intercept them.

    GarryB wrote:Any evidence of that at all?  If they could be jammed they would be jamming them and they would not be hitting anything at all... which appears to not be the case... in fact those two systems seem to be achieving results of 95% kills or better in real combat situations against rather difficult drone and enemy munition targets... which are rather difficult targets most western SAMs would struggle with.  
    When did the Syrians jam the Popeye? Several Syrian AD systems were hit by Israeli missiles. So clearly Syrian AD could neither jam Israeli missiles likes Popeye and Deliah nor shoot them down.

    GarryB wrote: Guidance choices of their targets do not matter to BUK and Pantsir in terms of engagement. Even under heavy jamming they have EO guidance options too and rather high speed missiles make re-engagement times short too... so lots of targets can be engaged.  
    How will EO guidance work when there is heavy jamming?

    GarryB wrote: but then I seem to remember they had a home on Jam function with their BUKs to specifically shoot down jamming platforms...
    Home in on jam, especially when there is heavy jamming rarely works at all. This is advertisement material released by defense primes.
    avatar
    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E

    Posts : 82
    Points : 86
    Join date : 2016-01-20

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:14 pm

    Syria, a premium partner of Russia finally needs TOR! Russia has to finally provide TOR System in large numbers of Syria incl. Crew! Everything else is not effective enough! Finally Fine with half things !
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30564
    Points : 31094
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:59 am

    Syrians are fortunate that Israel doesn’t have munition like HAMMER.

    They don't have them because France wont give them to Israel for free like the US gives them money and weapons for free... if they actually had to pay for all these weapons they were using they would be more in the financial shit than America is without the capacity to print money to stay out of the toilet bowl.

    The HAMMER is rocket powered and the HAMMER comes with a variety of optional terminal guidance kits that can just be fitted on to the main body of the PGM,

    BUK and Panstir don't care whether it is powered or unpowered, whether it is rocket or ramjet or turbojet or turbofan or propeller or even if it has flapping wings to propel it in the air.

    Now imagine launching 9-10 HAMMERS. One that is laser guided, another TV guided a third GPS guided. How will BUK, Pantsir-S1 intercept a volley of such missiles that have such vivid guidance?

    To get 60km range it has to be launched from high altitude so BUK would deal with it by shooting down the aircraft carrying the missiles... job done.

    The guidance choices means nothing... BUK and Pantsir don't work by jamming missiles so being unable to jam them doesn't mean anything... these weapons are relatively slow moving easy targets that both systems could blow out of the sky very quickly and easily.

    The Russian radar network will detect the plane and then detect the release of the weapons which will be tracked to determine what their target is and the batteries between their current position and the likely target will be lit up and they will shoot down these weapons.

    To overwhelm a BUK battery you need to fire rather more than 24 missiles at one time because that is how many targets one BUK battery can engage at one time... the newer improved missiles will likely mean one shot one kill most of the time. A Pantsir battery can engage a similar number of threats at one time too.

    Israeli drones will carry out stand in jamming before Israeli fighters launch such missiles. Impossible for Syrian air defense to intercept them.

    The drones will be shot down first and will be part of the 24 targets they engage at one time... Israel does not have any drones that can jam BUK or Pantsir... if they did they would not be getting a 95% first shot kill rate... especially against very difficult targets like tiny drones... that most western air defence systems wont even see like they didn't see in Saudi Arabia.

    When did the Syrians jam the Popeye? Several Syrian AD systems were hit by Israeli missiles. So clearly Syrian AD could neither jam Israeli missiles likes Popeye and Deliah nor shoot them down.

    Saudi Arabia claim Iran attacked their pipelines with cruise missiles and drones... an attack that was not detected until impact and destruction of the targets... western air defences can't even see cruise missiles and drones... they didn't even know they were there... and you are bitching because a few weapons slipped through Syrian defences?

    The Syrians don't use their air defence systems the way the Russians do... quite often they will protect a site with a single vehicle that is operating on its own instead of as a battery working together. With a single vehicle on its own you can observe it and wait till it is busy or being loaded and then mount an attack on the vehicle and the target it is defending... remember Israel wants to hit targets, but has to hit air defence vehicles to reach those targets. If they had super duper stealthy super advanced standoff munitions that Russian air defence systems can't even see they would be destroying targets rather than air defence vehicles.

    Equally if the F-35 was as stealthy as America claims it would be flying over targets in Syria dropping cheap dumb bombs and then flying home without need for standoff weapons or fighter escort... but that is bullshit too.

    The reason the US bangs on about swarms... and swarms isn't dozens of drones or weapons.... it has to be more than any combined defence can deal with so in the case of Russia it would need to be over 10,000 at a time to really overwhelm their defence network capacity.... of course such a swarm could be targeted with an airburst tactical nuclear strike as it approaches Russian territory...

    It is the only way the US can see to penetrate a Russian IADS network... which tells you how successful they have been with stealth and speed.... with the U-2 they went for altitude and when that stopped working, with the SR-71 they went for speed, and then they blew trillions on stealth, and now they are talking about stealth again... and swarms.

    How will EO guidance work when there is heavy jamming?

    EO is IIR cameras and digital TV cameras... how is jamming going to effect them?

    A Syrian battery will get target information from the Russian network in Syria which has an excellent view of everything that is happening... we know this because when the Syrians accidentaly shot down that Russian plane and the Israelis sent a big group of experts to Moscow to prove they were innocent explain what they thought was happening, the Russians showed them the radar history of the entire incident to prove what scumbags they were and it was their fault and the result was that Syria was connected to the Russian air defence network so they wouldn't make another mistake of who is who.

    Home in on jam, especially when there is heavy jamming rarely works at all.

    I don't think you appreciate the concept properly... think of it in terms of light... if BUK was a laser homing missile with the earlier models the vehicle directs a powerful laser beam at the target and the missile is launched and after flying towards the target for a bit on autopilot it then starts looking for that laser spot on the target. The ground vehicle knows when the missile will start looking so it turns on its laser just before the missile starts looking. In this case a jammer is another plane with another laser trying to shine its laser in the laser sensor on the missile to make it think it is the target... and soon as the missile turns towards the new signal which overpowered the original signal you wait until the missile has passed the original target and then you turn the jammer signal off... the missile has no laser spot in sight and will likely just fly till it runs out of fuel and crashes into the ground.

    Newer versions of BUK are Active Radar homing, which means a noise jammer might be better.

    The point is that the vehicle that launched the missile can see the jammer too so when the missile starts chasing the jammer the vehicle can switch to the jammer as the target so the jammer gets shot down.

    Equally the next missile the BUK launches can be optically guided so effectively it becomes a SACLOS missile like an anti tank missile with the optics on the vehicle launcher tracking the target and commanding the missile to manouver to get the kill.

    The missile is commanded by a line of sight datalink so to jam it you would need to get the jammer between the launcher and the missile...

    Syria, a premium partner of Russia finally needs TOR! Russia has to finally provide TOR System in large numbers of Syria incl. Crew! Everything else is not effective enough! Finally Fine with half things !

    A budget version of TOR would be excellent... a cheap wheeled vehicle with launch tubes ready to fire... instead of 6 vehicles each with a search radar and a phased array tracking and engagement radar, maybe a single vehicle with four phased array tracking and engagement radars that also perform the search function and perhaps have an EO turret on top for IR and digital video scanning on wheels so it is cheap to operate and with good mobility on roads (ie a 2,000km drive could be done in a couple of days in a wheeled vehicle, but a tracked vehicle would take a week and need an overhaul when it arrived). The launch vehicles could all be wheeled and have the EO turret on top and have enormous numbers of missiles... all ready to fire.

    Note TOR and Pantsir can fire while moving too.

    Being vertical launch missiles they could dig out a trench for a TOR system so that from the sides no part of the vehicle is visible yet with the overhead area clear it can still launch missiles...
    RTN
    RTN

    Posts : 455
    Points : 432
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  RTN Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:25 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Note TOR and Pantsir can fire while moving too.
    I realize that. In order to target these moving targets, U.S/NATO will soon be using Dispensing rocket payloads.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E608GweXMAQbFjN?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7865
    Points : 7849
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Isos Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:59 am

    A budget version of TOR would be excellent... a cheap wheeled vehicle with launch tubes ready to fire... instead of 6 vehicles each with a search radar and a phased array tracking and engagement radar, maybe a single vehicle with four phased array tracking and engagement radars that also perform the search function and perhaps have an EO turret on top for IR and digital video scanning on wheels so it is cheap to operate and with good mobility on roads (ie a 2,000km drive could be done in a couple of days in a wheeled vehicle, but a tracked vehicle would take a week and need an overhaul when it arrived). The launch vehicles could all be wheeled and have the EO turret on top and have enormous numbers of missiles... all ready to fire.

    Cheap tor doesn't exist.at best it is sosna-r.

    And Syria needs numbers. Not to pack a lot in a single system. At least a hundred of systems.

    And Russia isn't gonna pay for them.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4215
    Points : 4299
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  medo Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:10 pm

    Tor is excellent, but too expensive for Syria. They need to buy cheaper complexes. Sosna and Derivatsia-PVO for armored units and Gibka-S for motorized units and for logistics.

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Ez_i3l10

    Syria should consider this one for air defense. Vystrel is armored and cheap as it is based on standard Kamaz truck. It have combat turret BM2-04 with 30 mm gun 2A42 and high elevation up to +70o. Using air burst ammunition and installing Igla-S or Verba, would made it effective and cheap. They could install data link to integrate in IADS.

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 20162410

    Instalation of Igla missiles on BM2 turret.

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    Mir
    Mir

    Posts : 707
    Points : 709
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Mir Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Syrians are fortunate that Israel doesn’t have munition like HAMMER.

    Now imagine launching 9-10 HAMMERS. One that is laser guided, another TV guided a third GPS guided. How will BUK, Pantsir-S1 intercept a volley of such missiles that have such vivid guidance?

    To get 60km range it has to be launched from high altitude so BUK would deal with it by shooting down the aircraft carrying the missiles... job done.


    After years of anti-S300 lobbying - mainly from Israel and the US - the Syrians finally got their S-300's so there is no way that the HAMMER glide bombs could get anywhere near being launched from any fighter aircraft. Also a good reason why Israeli F-35's and F-16's are not entering Syrian air space and choose to launch attacks from Lebanon hiding behind civil aircraft.

    GarryB, d_taddei2 and Big_Gazza like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30564
    Points : 31094
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:17 am

    I realize that. In order to target these moving targets, U.S/NATO will soon be using Dispensing rocket payloads.

    That is just a version of sensor fused anti armour munitions like the ones the Soviets had in service in the 1980s, except I would expect they have a 40km flight range, like other MLRS rockets and TOR and BUK can both shoot down 227mm rockets already.

    More importantly Russian sensor fused top attack munitions have been adapted to have IR as well as MMW radar guidance and can be carried by their cluster bombs, their gliding cluster bombs, artillery rockets including 122mm Grad, 220mm Uragan, and 300mm Smerch as well as the payload for semi ballistic rockets like Tochka and Iskander as well as cruise missiles.

    Cheap tor doesn't exist.at best it is sosna-r.

    The expensive component of TOR is the radar systems it uses, as well as higher costs of tracked vehicles over wheeled ones, The missiles themselves are not expensive and are standard point defence weapons for their larger naval vessels like the Kuznetsov and Kirov class ships as well as Slava class vessels.

    Pantsir could also be used, but Pine wont be ready yet for export unless they want the 10km range standard model... which actually looks very good anyway.

    And Syria needs numbers. Not to pack a lot in a single system. At least a hundred of systems.

    And Russia isn't gonna pay for them.

    Syria needs some nuclear weapons so they can finally say to Israel **** OFF. Respect our borders or die you censored .

    Tor is excellent, but too expensive for Syria. They need to buy cheaper complexes. Sosna and Derivatsia-PVO for armored units and Gibka-S for motorized units and for logistics.

    Agree... 57mm guns are fully multipurpose and SOSNA missiles (Pine) look very good too in the sense of cost and operational potential.

    Something more cost effective might just be putting Russian flags on all their buildings and vehicles... Twisted Evil

    Might get some real Russian forces accidentally attacked, but it is not like something the Israelis wouldn't do themselves and have not done before.


    Syria should consider this one for air defense. Vystrel is armored and cheap as it is based on standard Kamaz truck. It have combat turret BM2-04 with 30 mm gun 2A42 and high elevation up to +70o. Using air burst ammunition and installing Igla-S or Verba, would made it effective and cheap. They could install data link to integrate in IADS.

    Yes, agree... in fact even Kornet-EM would be an interesting load out too...

    Instalation of Igla missiles on BM2 turret.

    Nice... that looks like the 30mm long barrel cannon from the Hind (the shorter version is used on the Su-25)....

    Should be plenty of internal volume for 30mm cannon shells in the MTLB... but maybe the wheeled BTR-87 with the engine moved to the front and rear ramp doors could be a cheaper more mobile platform.

    A combination of a few different systems could be applied...

    the Syrians finally got their S-300's so there is no way that the HAMMER glide bomb

    Indeed... thinking about it... 60km would be too far for the models of BUK they operate... assuming they are the target of course, though being mobile they could move 20km closer to the launch area and smack them down easily enough, but S-300 would be the real danger for the aggressor pilots.
    avatar
    Mindstorm

    Posts : 1112
    Points : 1279
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Mindstorm Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:23 am

    RTN wrote:When did the Syrians jam the Popeye? Several Syrian AD systems were hit by Israeli missiles. So clearly Syrian AD could neither jam Israeli missiles likes Popeye and Deliah nor shoot them down.

    Actually 90% of the israeli missiles (majority of which delivered from Lebamese air space) downed by Syrian air defenses area actually just Deliah missiles including the 13 out of 14 downed by Панцирь-С1 and Бук-М2Э launchers in the latest days.

    Popeye missiles instead are today rarely employed, being a largely outdated design, costly and contemporaneously very easy to shot down also for relatively outdated SAM systems (at example С-125M have several times in the past downed those type of missiles); in the few instances where Israel has employed them it was often the submarine-launched version against Syrian targets defended by theirs most outdated SAM systems.

    On another note ,yesterday a Панцирь-С1 has downed another TB2 Bayraktar in the Masyaf area.

    https://vpk.name/news/527954_ocherednoi_tureckii_bpla_unichtozhen_nad_severnoi_siriei.html

    It seem that the UAV attempted to sneak in the area of deplyment of Syrian C-300 in response to an attack by part of ВВС of a warehouse hosting just those kind of UAVs.

    https://avia-pro.net/news/zrpk-pancir-s-sbil-tureckiy-bespilotnik-popytavshiysya-nanesti-udary-po-sirii

    medo, dino00, Big_Gazza, x_54_u43, Hole, lyle6 and Mir like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2727
    Points : 2727
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:28 pm

    Turkish rats can keep mewling about the "success" of the TB2 and the "failure" of Pantisr... meanwhile the Syrians and other operators will keep chalking up kills thumbsup

    Actions >> Words.

    Stoopid kebabs.

    medo, Cyberspec, Hole and lyle6 like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9241
    Points : 9344
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  JohninMK Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:09 am

    If this happened it was apparently down to a Buk-M2 over Aleppo. Same as one shot down by Iran, operated by USN so that's a puzzle.

    Within Syria
    @WithinSyriaBlog
    ·
    9h
    Now Hezbollah-affiliated U-News confirms that a drone was shot down by Syrian Air Defense fire. Reportedly, an American MQ-4C Triton that took off from Mufaq al-Salati Air Base in Jordan.


    https://english.iswnews.com/19953/us-mq-4c-triton-shot-down-in-syria/

    EDIT

    OR it could be this

    MidlleEastCollective project "ThronekeeperRaNefer"
    @MEastPrjKeeper
    · 8h
    August 03 2021 at 19:12 Syrian Buk-M2E air defense complex shot down #TurkishOccupiers' heavy (1,6 tonnes) Anka-S strike UAV over north of western Aleppo governatore. In last 10 days of July, Mi-35P-2M & Pantsir-S1 shot down 2 Turkish TB2s
    @I30mki @PA28_pilot @syrseal44 @200_zoka

    d_taddei2 likes this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9241
    Points : 9344
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:05 am

    Just a confirmation of what we knew. Nothing on the numbers.

    Jared Szuba
    @JM_Szuba
    · 7h
    Just now: "The Biden administration is committed to retaining US military presence in northeast Syria," Dana Stroul, the Pentagon's top policy official for the Middle East, tells Senators of the Foreign Relations Committee.
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9241
    Points : 9344
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  JohninMK Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:30 pm

    A massive move by the US into Jordan that could have a big impact on Syria's ability to get its territory back from the US.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8597-the-us-move-into-jordan#335581
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1906
    Points : 2084
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:41 pm

    medo wrote:Tor is excellent, but too expensive for Syria. They need to buy cheaper complexes. Sosna and Derivatsia-PVO for armored units and Gibka-S for motorized units and for logistics.

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Ez_i3l10

    Syria should consider this one for air defense. Vystrel is armored and cheap as it is based on standard Kamaz truck. It have combat turret BM2-04 with 30 mm gun 2A42 and high elevation up to +70o. Using air burst ammunition and installing Igla-S or Verba, would made it effective and cheap. They could install data link to integrate in IADS.

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 20162410

    Instalation of Igla missiles on BM2 turret.

    Pretty good and cheap upgrade great export potential. Could be mounted on BTR-60/70/80, BRDM 1/2, BMP-1/2, BMD series, or any older tanks such as T-34,T-54/55, T-62, PT-76, or ZSU-23-4, nice to see it on a MTLB
    nomadski
    nomadski

    Posts : 1502
    Points : 1512
    Join date : 2017-01-02

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  nomadski Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:28 pm

    These vehicles would attract attention and being exposed  , will be targets for air attacks . Why not just place the gun and SAM in camouflaged bunker around storage sites ? ( gun assembly can actually be inside loading tunnel mouth ) And slave the gun to Radar to fire in fixed position with slight conical spread ? protecting tunnel entrances ? A sure hit . A very steep entrance , going deep quickly or vertical shaft , more easy to protect . Incoming missile has to go in vertical . Will be hit . Tunnels on slight decline vulnerable along lengths close to surface . Missiles can penetrate . More area to protect . Bring down missile with few dumb bullets ?
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1906
    Points : 2084
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:41 pm

    nomadski wrote:These vehicles would attract attention and being exposed  , will be targets for air attacks . Why not just place the gun and SAM in camouflaged bunker around storage sites ?  ( gun assembly can actually be inside loading tunnel mouth ) And slave the gun to Radar to fire in fixed position with slight conical spread ?  protecting tunnel entrances ? A sure hit . A very steep entrance , going deep quickly or vertical shaft , more easy to protect . Incoming missile has to go in vertical . Will be hit . Tunnels on slight decline vulnerable along lengths close to surface . Missiles can penetrate . More area to protect . Bring down missile with few dumb bullets ?

    As soon as u put something into a bunker it hampers field of view, also it's static easy to destroy, being Mobile makes it more difficult as most tactics involve rotation AD vehicles so they aren't always sitting in same position. Also if stuck in a bunker it can can't exactly be used to escort other vehicles or protect troops as they advance, if the base gets over run u lose this AD system to the enemy, if it's mobile it can at least flee and be used elsewhere. And then there is the cost, digging a bunker and tunnel system isn't cheap, and has maintenance to keep damp away, the cost to built this would be far more expensive than mounting this system on a vehicle platform u already own, and would still be more expensive than if u were buying an MT-LB with the turret from Russia. Having it mobile has far more advantageous than a bunker type system. It's the reason why u don't see Armed forces building bunker AD systems in this category of AD right up to S-400 & S-500.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4983
    Points : 5089
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Vann7 Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:29 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Note TOR and Pantsir can fire while moving too.
    I realize that. In order to target these moving targets, U.S/NATO will soon be using Dispensing rocket payloads.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E608GweXMAQbFjN?format=jpg&name=4096x4096



    You are highly miss-informed about Russian and Isreali hardware capabilities.

    Just like everyone else is telling you , israel do not have the capabilities , (or at least have not show until now) to have capabilities to jam syrian air defenses , to the point that makes their air defenses useless.

    So far for more than 5 years already , Syrian air defenses have shown the ability to intercept anything israel throw at Syria ,including glide bombs , and loitering munition ,deliya , popeye , every standard missile on israel inventory , have been intercepted . The interception rate of pantsirs /tors appears to be from 70% to 90%.

    So if israel jamming capabilities are being used to attack syria , then it doesn't look they work all the time at least when it comes to missiles , because most of them are being intercepted , last attack of israel 100% interception rate , according to Russia defense ministry.

    This is not saying that israel don't have a secret hardware not yet used against syria , and could do it , it only means ,that until now, israel have not shown the ability to make effectively bypass syrian air defenses.. if you were to measure israel missiles performance , their success rate had to be , about from 10% to 30%.

    If Israel jamming capabilities was so great.. then they will not had a need to waste so many missiles don't you think ? Because the last time they destroyed a pantsir in syria , they had to use saturation
    attacks to defeat it , something that will always work.  if you have 5 bullets ,you can only shoot 5 things and not 6 , so any system of defense with rockets or missiles , can be defeated if you overwhelm it with more missiles ,that the system can intercept.  so this is how israel have been targeting those Tors and pantsirs in syria and armenia too.. they fly low with their drones and waited until more than a 12 missiles were intercepted , to attack the air defenses.  Russia military thanks to the syrian lesson ,   have improved their pantsirs abilities to carry twice more missiles? i think , the new number is 24 missiles per pantsir.  so this automatically improved by up to twice their performance by carrrying twice more missiles , and the missiles are more smaller and cheaper too now to produce , so making a lot more expensive and more complicated for israel , to succeed in any attack on syria.  This is the reason why some israeli missiles ends crashing on civilians zones ,  far away of their targets ,they likely were jammed or blinded by Russian electronic warfare.


    -Another thing you ignore , is that pantsirs can operate in passive mode , using only thermal/infra red optics which you can't jam.

    -another thing you also not aware is that Russia military have decoys to fool the missile guidance of those missiles israel fires. whether Russia give them ,to syrian military to use them or not can be argued , but this can be very effective in blinding those self guided missiles with artificial intelligence ,that israel or NATO have.

    -Finally one last thing you not aware , is that Russia military , have spoken several times , to have weapons to fry electronics of planes and missiles, so literary turn them off ,with an electronic EMP attack. They have shown this capabilities in their media with mines , a truck armed with crazy radars , microwave everything up to 5km to 10km and so anything caught by the microwave attack is literary fried and simply stop working.  So any slow flying missile that is caught in a powerful electromagnetic pulse attack , will be disable and will not explode or explode earlier than reach its target or simply will stop working and fall..  this is very likely the way Russia have been able to capture several israeli missiles in near perfect conditions. by disabling their electronics with a emp attack.

    There is a very famous incident commented a lot in military forums ,of an expensive drone of israel shotdown by russia using electronic warfare , that the drone simply collapse and crash when was flying over lebanon.

    you also have the well documented case of Russia jamming NATO satellites gps communications ,with their biggest exercises in norway , that norway ,sweeden and findland accused russia of jamming their gps .. and even one destroyer crashed with a tanker ,for the difficulty this jamming caused in entire scandinavian zone . so far Russia have shown to have plenty of very powerful and very useful tools , to complicate dramatically any NATO or israeli war operations in any zone by interfering their satellite communications and tactical bombing operations.  

    all said , there are a lot of things , a lot of ways , Russia have to stop israel ability to attack syria ,
    naturally all this things cost a lot more money for Russia , that they will like to invest . because after all Syria is not paying anything for all this air defenses , this comes from Russia pockets , and so for russia is not in their interest to deploy a very expensive and very dense network of air defenses in syria from pantsirs ,to tors ,to s-400 , intercepting everything , and helping israel airforce to spy
    on them. and figure out newer tactics to counter it.

    All this abilities of israel to attack syria every week , with a minority of the missiles they launch , is only possible ,because of the geography of syria ,that makes it difficult to scan low flying planes , but also and more importantly because of putin weakness and rules of engagement versus them, that only allows targeting missiles and not the planes that launch them.  Rolling Eyes

    in a real war , between russia and israel , none of this minimal success of israel , attacking syria will happen , hit and run scenarios will not  be possible. in a real war , russian military will not just sit there intercepting missiles ,as they have been doing for  6 years already and go the offensive and bomb israel military bases back.. and use the russian airforce and s-400s to push back israeli planes  .

    The chances of israeli airforce to hit any military base in syria , if russia declared war against Israel ,will be zero , if they armed syria in the same way kaliningrad or crimea is armed , and Russia passed to the offensive and started targeting israeli airforce and israeli  bases too. because in a real war , israel will need to be on the defense and their planes no longer will be allowed to ever get anywhere close to syria. likely destroyed while in the military bases or as soon they take off with s-400s. because russia long range air defenses can cover completely all israel airspace .  they deploy s-400 in egypt and syria and israel airforce can be hit from the rear and the front , from all sides.. Russia military if they really wanted it , they can effectively neutralize the israel airforce in one day , by surrounding israel with s-400s and hitting those israeli  military bases with hypersonic strikes.
    israel alone is not a match for the full might of Russian military  in case of a real war . They will need to be carried by US military. Isreal airforce is very capable without a doubt , but it will not last long , in a real war versus russia.  israel will completely depend on US for its protection , in case of a war with a military force way above their level . Even iran could defeat israel if russia really wanted it , and give them all the weapons they need to push back israel, all the modern planes and tanks and military tech.

    Israel knows very well ,they will lose their military edge , if iran get nuclear weapons and this is why they are so scared and paranoid about iran getting nukes . they know very well ,they have no chance versus a nuclear iran , with a modernized army by russia. Smile

    old_man likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30564
    Points : 31094
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:55 am

    The Syrians are pretty much not responding to Israeli attacks... if you try to compare this situation with a potential HATO vs Russia situation... the first time a HATO plane launches any sort of standoff weapon against Russia Russia would shoot down the standoff weapon and likely also the plane that launched the weapon... they might also launch an attack against the airfield that plane was operating from... something Syria does not do, but Russia would... because there is no way Russia would put up with repeated attacks on their forces like that.

    Syria is not in a position to fight Israel on its own and will not get support from Russia for such an attack so they quietly sit and take these attacks from Israel knowing that any escalation would not be to their favour.

    Regarding air defence... some class and skill needs to be shown... surrounding a military position with a huge fishing net with two corners anchored to the ground and at about 5 places along the top edge of the net, balloons attached to gas tanks filled with hydrogen. When enemy attacks are suspected fill the balloons with hydrogen and they will rise up raising the net and stopping most drones from flying through... a fishing net would be hard to spot in the optics of most drones or munitions...

    Use drones for yourself and use them to look at your own troops operationally and work out some tactics and ways of making your own troops hard to find or identify from the air.... camouflage... don't make yourself an easy target.

    Make fake targets too.

    It is something you don't need to be a 21st Century Super Power to be good at.
    avatar
    ALAMO

    Posts : 637
    Points : 639
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  ALAMO Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:04 am

    I would even say that it is the opposite.
    When you are a small and weak county in war, you need to be smarter and more creative.
    Serbs are a very good example, and the Kosovo campaign proved how effective easy tools can be.
    The asymmetric wars we witness, are proof of that, too.
    Some concepts Syrian insurgents used have been adapted to the training of the Russian army.
    The whole drone warfare we witness is something going bottom-up.
    Small drones bought on Aliexpress for $100 proved to be effective to do the tasks, and only then big fishes realized that they can be useful as well.
    avatar
    Arrow

    Posts : 964
    Points : 962
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Arrow Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:36 am

    ALAMO wrote:I would even say that it is the opposite.
    When you are a small and weak county in war, you need to be smarter and more creative.
    Serbs are a very good example, and the Kosovo campaign proved how effective easy tools can be.

    Unfortunately, the campaign in Kosovo showed that if you do not have a good air defense and aviation defense, the enemy can kill you with air force alone. It will destroy your entire infrastructure and economy with air raids alone. The land forces will be of no use in this case.

    JohninMK likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7865
    Points : 7849
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Isos Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:52 am

    If you are small and weak fighting a bigger and powerfull enemy it's better to surrender.

    Kosovo showed that Serbs were good at receiving bombs. Nothing more. The downed drones or f-117 or the use of hundreds of bombs were not harmful to the US.

    JohninMK likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30564
    Points : 31094
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:05 am

    There are smart ways to fight, but you need to pick your fights.

    One small country with no support close enough to offer any help is in a very weak position... whether it is Serbia right next to HATO and getting picked on by the last super power, or Georgia being right next to Russia, which in 2008 whose military was not in great shape but Georgia was isolated from its super power supporters/conspirators... Georgia had good drones too but it really didn't help much... it just gave the Russians the boot up the arse that they needed in that they fully realised the west would pick any shithole country over them and that hopes and plans for a shared eurasian continent from Atlantic to Pacific was not going to happen no matter what Russia did, so they better start getting their military in order and then their production and trade shit sorted out.

    I would say the best thing Syria can do is to start working with Russia and Iran to build their economy and develop and grow and get stronger... with the US leaving Iraq then start building ties with Iraq too and even Turkey.

    No point getting mired in a war you cannot win, but work together with Russia and China and Iran on defences to deal with Israeli attacks, because Israeli attacks on Syria wont be that different from US and HATO attacks on Russia or China or Iran, so it would be in all their interests to work together to solve such problems cheaply and efficiently... whether it is EW or self defence drones or something else... they would all benefit learning to counter the aggression of the west.

    Israel is not going to stop and the only other alternative is surrender, which is not really an option because they will keep bombing anyway.

    Maybe Bio weapons research could be a way forward...
    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9241
    Points : 9344
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:35 am

    GarryB wrote:There are smart ways to fight, but you need to pick your fights.
    No point getting mired in a war you cannot win, but work together with Russia and China and Iran on defences to deal with Israeli attacks, because Israeli attacks on Syria wont be that different from US and HATO attacks on Russia or China or Iran, so it would be in all their interests to work together to solve such problems cheaply and efficiently...  whether it is EW or self defence drones or something else... they would all benefit learning to counter the aggression of the west.


    Maybe Bio weapons research could be a way forward...

    I like the first para, Russia treats Syria as a specifically anti drone/small missile AD learning area, moving their own systems into key areas to test and develop them, If they don't I would hazard a guess that Iran will.

    Bio weapons is a no no. That would be a diplomatic etc disaster which would put Russia in a very difficult place and the US deliriously happy.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7865
    Points : 7849
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Isos Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:56 am

    Yes and no.

    They didn't move that many systems on the frontline but mostly watched what syrian system can do.

    They have Sosna-R, 57mm system, tunguska, vehicles with igla systems and tor that could have been sent on the front with command and control vehicles.

    Their own systems were tested mainly at their air base which is not a test on the field. It's much easier to use them on a base than on the front.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30564
    Points : 31094
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:00 am

    Bio weapons is a no no. That would be a diplomatic etc disaster which would put Russia in a very difficult place and the US deliriously happy.

    They can say it is for defence like the thousands of bio labs the US has around the world... including it seems China...

    What they put on the label does not need to exactly match what is inside the container.... a bit like a pack of tictacs.


    They didn't move that many systems on the frontline but mostly watched what syrian system can do.

    They are there to advise as well as monitor, so I would expect them to offer advice on tactics and systems as well and such experience would be useful for Russian companies working on solutions to very similar problems... and an opportunity to test...

    [quote]Their own systems were tested mainly at their air base which is not a test on the field. It's much easier to use them on a base than on the front.[/quote

    Probably true, but testing at their airbase against a real enemy is still much more useful than on a range or in a lab.

    Also there are Russian police type troops patrolling areas in a more COIN type role which could also be using anti drone technology.

    They don't really have SOSNA-R (Pine) missiles deployed nor 57mm guns with the new ammo AFAIK except perhaps any testing batches, but those things are certainly on their way.

    They also have some very powerful jamming aircraft like helicopters and fixed wing aircraft that can stop most electronic communication devices from working over a large area.

    Sponsored content

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 33 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:25 pm