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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:43 am

    MiG-35 is good for next couple of years but not really promising as newest F-18 of Eurofighter models.

    Why do you think that? The new photonic radar technology should make Russian fighters pretty exceptional until western fighters get the same equipment, and certainly in close combat a MiG-35 with 3D thrust vectoring engines would leave both aircraft in the dust... and for a significantly fewer number of rubles...

    Whether MiG-35 will be accepted to RuAF is IMHO dependent on intl situation, if there will be no need for expediency in fighter manufacturing it might be rather low priority one. Nothing wrong with that just Polikarpov I-185 didnt go to series either and was pretty kickass fighter.

    The MiG is much cheaper to operate than the Flankers, and having smaller fighters makes sense as they often offer better coverage.

    They also introduce a flexibility you don't get with an all Flanker fleet.

    I was referring to idea of single engine version of Su-57

    What would be the point?

    It would reduce the takeoff weight dramatically, and totally eliminate post stall manouver performance with one vectored thrust engine only... for the myth of the cheaper maintainence on the single engined fighter?

    So how cheap is the F-35 then?

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:28 am

    Yeah, the mig35 is a deep modernisation of the mig29M and has nothing to envy to the Rafal, gripen, eurofighter or F18. And new radars and engines could still be added later.

    In this article from 2007 they mentioned that Klimov already started working on a further engine evolution to the mig29 and mig 35 engines
    https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
    Flightglobal (May 2007) wrote:
    The current production-standard RD-33MK selected for Indian navy MiG-29K/KUBs develops 20,000lb of thrust and has a 1,000h TBO. The engine has a wider-chord fan for 6% greater airflow, full-authority digital control, a new "multi-section" no-smoke combustor and three-dimensional aerodynamics in the turbine. In 2006, RSK MiG's Chernyshev plant assembled four RD-33MKs to support flight testing of the first twin-seat MiG-29KUB, which made its maiden flight in January.

    Another application for the RD-33MK powerplant is the MiG-35 that MiG plans to offer for India's multi-role combat aircraft requirement. A further option is the RD-33MKV (for vectoring), which has the same thrust rating, but which is fitted with a Klimov swivelling nozzle. This is currently being tested on a MiG-29OVT technology demonstrator.

    In April last year Klimov announced that it had begun design of a new engine for the LFI next-generation lightweight fighter being developed by MiG. Although MiG has yet to define all of its requirements for the engine, Klimov has said it will be an upgrade of the RD-33 with 25,300lb thrust, vectoring nozzle and modular design.

    A further evolution of such engine could be also retrofitted to the mig35, and give supercruise capabilities...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    MiG-35 is good for next couple of years but not really promising as newest F-18 of Eurofighter models.

    Why do you think that? The new photonic radar technology should make Russian fighters pretty exceptional until western fighters get the same equipment, and certainly in close combat a MiG-35 with 3D thrust vectoring engines would leave both aircraft in the dust... and for a significantly fewer number of rubles...


    putting new tech in old frames makes little sense if you can have new tech in new frames. That's why IMHO it depdned on expediency when more fighters are really needed. No immediate need ->"lets wait for new design".

    BTW aren't Eu-fighter and MiG-35 on pair wrt speed?



    Whether MiG-35 will be accepted to RuAF is IMHO dependent on intl situation, if there will be no need for expediency in fighter manufacturing it might be rather low priority one. Nothing wrong with that just Polikarpov I-185 didnt go to series either and was pretty kickass fighter.

    The MiG is much cheaper to operate than the Flankers, and having smaller fighters makes sense as they often offer better coverage.

    They also introduce a flexibility you don't get with an all Flanker fleet. [/quote]


    Too many Flakners already (Su-34, 30, 35, 27 all modifications ) in service + Su-57. Yet another type of fighters to keep supply chain for? unlikely this is cheaper. MiG-29s are legacy for RuAF. No new is actually procured in numbers for a reason.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:25 pm

    putting new tech in old frames makes little sense if you can have new tech in new frames. That's why IMHO it depdned on expediency when more fighters are really needed. No immediate need ->"lets wait for new design".

    Aerodynamically there is nothing wrong with the MiG-35s airframe and a "newer" airframe is just code for stealthy... which might make it less manouverable rather than more manouverable and in terms of effectiveness the level of stealth needs to be selected... too stealthy and it becomes too expensive to maintain and operate during peace time... not stealthy enough and it is not worth the extra cost of making it stealthy.

    And no stealth fighter is invisible to IR and EO systems anyway so we are talking radar stealth only which is also seriously compromised by ground based systems and airborne systems too.

    With TVC engines on the MiG, the Hornet and Eurofighter are dead in close combat, and the DAS and DIRCMs and ESM of the MiG means it will be gun vs gun in a gun fight where TVC is critical.

    BTW aren't Eu-fighter and MiG-35 on pair wrt speed?

    Not sure why you think speed is important... but they would be similar...

    Too many Flakners already (Su-34, 30, 35, 27 all modifications ) in service + Su-57. Yet another type of fighters to keep supply chain for? unlikely this is cheaper. MiG-29s are legacy for RuAF. No new is actually procured in numbers for a reason.

    What are you talking about... those flankers and the Su-57 are essentially two different types that could all use the same radar and engines and weapons and parts.

    Adding one more type... the MiG-35 to replace the MiG-29S/SM/SMT/ and other models still in use including the naval KR models simply makes a lot of sense... especially when the single and two seat aircraft use the same airframe and are the same except number of seats/cockpit displays...
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:47 pm

    any news on Ka-60, Mi-38, and TVS 2DTS (An-2 replacement) havent heard anything for ages, i believe Mi-38 is a lot further along than the Ka-60
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:34 pm

    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 1591420590_1591420641

    In the future, Russian combat aircraft may receive vertical launchers for missiles, the launch of which will be carried out in mortar shells. A patent for the corresponding invention is published in the database of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS).

    The mortar launch of guided aircraft missiles, anti-missiles and other ammunition from vertical launchers was offered by specialists of Design Bureau Fakel named after Grushin and NPP Radar MMS. According to the inventors, this method of firing is safer and allows you to launch missiles even from an airplane standing on the ground.

    The method of vertical air launch of missiles includes the vertical launch of a rocket from a launch container placed on an air carrier

    - TASS quotes an extract from the patent.

    Launching missiles from a vertical launcher in a mortar or “cold start” assumes that the missile will be ejected from the launcher without turning on the engine, i.e. with the help of some kind of knockout charge. The rocket starts its engines already at a safe distance from the carrier. To compensate for pressure from the oncoming air flow, the authors propose the use of stabilization engines in the bow of the rockets.

    Note that the “cold start” is well known and widely used in Russian weapons, for example, to launch ICBMs, in some anti-aircraft missile systems, etc. The authors of the invention opposed their method of launching missiles from the vertical launchers of an aircraft, which the Americans considered unsafe. Developers from the United States offered a "hot" start when the rocket engine turned on even in the launch container.

    https://topwar.ru/171889-v-rossii-zapatentovali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:14 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 1591420590_1591420641

    In the future, Russian combat aircraft may receive vertical launchers for missiles, the launch of which will be carried out in mortar shells. A patent for the corresponding invention is published in the database of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS).

    The mortar launch of guided aircraft missiles, anti-missiles and other ammunition from vertical launchers was offered by specialists of Design Bureau Fakel named after Grushin and NPP Radar MMS. According to the inventors, this method of firing is safer and allows you to launch missiles even from an airplane standing on the ground.

    The method of vertical air launch of missiles includes the vertical launch of a rocket from a launch container placed on an air carrier

    - TASS quotes an extract from the patent.

    Launching missiles from a vertical launcher in a mortar or “cold start” assumes that the missile will be ejected from the launcher without turning on the engine, i.e. with the help of some kind of knockout charge. The rocket starts its engines already at a safe distance from the carrier. To compensate for pressure from the oncoming air flow, the authors propose the use of stabilization engines in the bow of the rockets.

    Note that the “cold start” is well known and widely used in Russian weapons, for example, to launch ICBMs, in some anti-aircraft missile systems, etc. The authors of the invention opposed their method of launching missiles from the vertical launchers of an aircraft, which the Americans considered unsafe. Developers from the United States offered a "hot" start when the rocket engine turned on even in the launch container.

    https://topwar.ru/171889-v-rossii-zapatentovali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html

    Air Launch: How Invented a New Way to Launch Missiles from Aircraft

    The mortar launch into space is not a forgotten, but also an unrealized idea. Perhaps everything will change.

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 S1_d_850

    An event has happened that is rare enough for our country. A patent was issued for launching missiles from aircraft using vertical launchers. It was received by developers from the Engineering Fakel Design Bureau named after Academician Grushin and NPP Radar Mms. A message about this is contained on the website of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS). Our engineers have many breakthrough inventions. But they are very rarely patented.

    The description of the invention says that the method of vertical air launch of missiles includes a vertical launch from a launch container placed on an air carrier. In this way, it will be possible to launch guided missiles, anti-missiles and ballistic missiles.

    Such a launch is sometimes called a "mortar." The peculiarity is that the rocket propulsion engine does not turn on in the launcher, but later, when the rocket moves to a safe distance from the aircraft. The initial launch of the rocket and its ejection from the launcher is carried out, for example, using a pneumatic balloon or a powder pressure accumulator.

    Everything is fine, but there is nothing special to enjoy. A paper patent was received for what the domestic "Ilona Masks" tried to practically implement at the beginning of this century, that is, almost twenty years ago. It was an Air Launch project. And it is worth remembering.

    In a long-standing project, by the way, actively supported by the then existing Russian Aerospace Agency, it was envisaged to launch a launch vehicle with satellites on board from a height of 10-11 km from an air launch platform. As a carrier aircraft, it was proposed to use a modification of the heaviest serial transport aircraft An-124-100 Ruslan.

    To implement the project, the An-124-100, which was in a dead state, was purchased from the Air Force. Only to clean the fuselage from bird droppings required several heavy trucks. The private company that took the plane pledged at its own expense to restore the huge airliner to working condition, and then on its basis to carry out the whole complex of experimental and test work for the implementation of an air launch. This required money. They began to earn on the transportation of bulky goods. At the same time, detailed calculations were carried out on a promising rocket and work to attract investors.

    In the interim, the Polet launch vehicle was created, in which it was supposed to use environmentally friendly components of rocket fuel “liquid oxygen + kerosene”.

    This missile was just supposed to be dropped from Ruslan in a container from which it would launch "in a mortar". One of the most difficult tasks is to simultaneously land a cargo with a mass comparable to an airplane. They decided it. It was proved that it is quite possible and safe, under a certain flight mode, to drop in the launch zone a launch vehicle weighing 100 tons or more within the carrying capacity of the An-124-100 carrier aircraft.

    It was proved that the Launch vehicle, launched in an air launch mode, is capable of launching satellites weighing up to 3.5 tons into low polar orbits, up to 4.5 tons into low equatorial orbits, and up to 0.85 tons into orbits of navigation systems GLONASS and Galileo, up to 0.8 tons per geostationary orbit.

    When equipping geostationary satellites with an apogee propulsion system, which ensures the satellite’s transition from a geo-transitional orbit to a geostationary one, the “Launch” launch vehicle made it possible to launch satellites weighing up to 1 ton into geostationary orbit. To the Moon and on the flight paths, the Air Start system was supposed to launch spacecraft weighing 1 ... 1.2 tons.

    It is worth repeating that all this was calculated in detail and partially tested almost twenty years ago. Even Elon Musk himself does not dream about this today.

    Naturally, the Russian project aroused interest abroad. Since it was most advantageous to launch missiles using the technology of air launch from the equator, Indonesia even proposed using one of its equatorial islands for these purposes. Provided that she will enter the project.

    A real spaceport was supposed to be built at the Frans Kaisiepo airdrome (Biak Island). Work was supposed to go with joint Russian-Indonesian funding. An interstate agreement was even signed.

    But then the then leadership of the Air Force recalled that the An-124-100, which was completely restored at the expense of a private investor, formally remained in their ownership. How so? The plane flies, brings profit to someone, and the Air Force commander aside. That commander in chief did not even remember about the project "Air Launch", which in its implementation went to the finish line. But he made every effort to pick up Ruslan and actually destroy one of the most promising space projects in Russia. It was funded, it is worth repeating, by an individual. The Russian Ilon Mask did not take place - the Air Force was not allowed, or rather, their commander in chief, whose last name does not make sense.

    I would like to believe that the Fakel Machine-Building Design Bureau and the Radar Mms patented their invention will be able to bring the paper document to iron. On the other hand, there is a question.

    For a number of technical and technological solutions for the Air Launch project, developed in a preliminary design and confirmed by modeling, 24 patents were received in six countries of the world that possess rocket technologies (USA, Ukraine, France, Germany, Great Britain, Russia). Surely the authors of that project did not begin to patent one of their main achievements - the mortar launch technology?

    https://rg.ru/2020/06/06/vozdushnyj-start-kak-izobretali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:38 pm

    any news on Ka-60, Mi-38, and TVS 2DTS (An-2 replacement) havent heard anything for ages, i believe Mi-38 is a lot further along than the Ka-60

    AFAIK the delays with those programmes are Russian engines and all Russian parts that are delaying things... of course the biggest hurdle for Mi-38 is that Mi-17 is still in demand and production... but I guess its improved performance is going to win it some customers too.

       
    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft



    Interesting... I always thought the idea of their twin barrel 23mm cannon used to launch flare and chaff rounds was clever and that a 30mm or 40mm model could be used to rapidly deploy chaff clouds and IR screens in clusters around the aircraft without needing to cover the surface with launchers that leave open hollow tubes that must magnify RCS issues...

    The weapon pylons with R-77 missiles use an arm launcher that throws the missile down and away from the aircraft before launch to ensure proper clean separation and clearance before the weapons rocket motor is started up.

    Conformal missiles like the R-37M also have similar structures to allow the weapons to clear the parasitic airflow that would push the weapons back up into the fuselage of the aircraft when the missile is released... potentially damaging the aircraft and the missiles control fins.

    Launching weapons upwards has been considered problematic because access is an issue... note a weapon bay that opens upwards and releases bombs and missiles upwards could double the internal capacity for weapons by better utilising available space but obviously there needs to be some way of pushing the weapons up with enough force that the slip stream slows them down and they fall behind the aircraft for unpowered weapons and for powered weapons their motors light up and accelerate them away from the aircraft without making contact.

    Imagine the small wing root mounted missile positions on the Su-57... imagine a dozen more on top of the aircraft body and a centre area where larger missiles can be loaded and launched... significantly increasing the number of internal weapons available to the pilot in combat...

    The doors would open and the arm would throw the weapon up and several metres clear of the aircraft and the motors on the missiles light up and away goes the weapon toward the target... weapon bay closes...

    For small weapons like 9M100 anti missile missiles with thrust vector rocket motors they could be facing forwards or backwards...

    The main problem is that it probably wouldn't work well with heavy weapons... most normal aircraft would not have the vertical depth to have a large weapon mounted angled up and a launch tube to fire it...

    For something like a MiG-41 it could have a section down the middle with vertically located but angled forward like the Granits on a Kirov with a very short burn rocket motor to effectively blow the 6-8 metre long missile up at a 45 degree angle out of the fuselage of the aircraft and clear of the aircraft and then the main rocket motors of the missiles fire and take them up nearly vertically to rapidly climb to thinner air for max speed perhaps with a scramjet motor benefitting from the high altitude and high speed launch to maximise range.

    During WWII some fighter planes had bombs vertically stored behind the pilots position to reduce inflight drag and centralise the mass near the cg so when they were dropped the aircraft didn't become unbalanced... They dropped them down obviously but the idea is similar in terms of increasing places where weapons are kept without external drag or using up limited available hard points...

    Note removed posts from this thread regarding Indias options for MiGs and Flankers is here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8092-indias-options-for-new-fighters
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    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:43 am

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 001416
    "Mortar" launch method from planes/ekranoplans.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:01 pm

    Hole wrote:VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 001416
    "Mortar" launch method from planes/ekranoplans.

    That's what I thought originally because originally the Caspian Sea Monster had experimented with with angled launchers above the fuselage, but the designers at Fakel spoke about use in even in anti-air/SAM use. So maybe they plan on creating Ekranoplans as a flying component of S-400/S-500/Nudol units, and they should be able to carry dozens of missiles with no real issue.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:02 pm

    The problem with huge missiles is that the aircraft that carries them needs a fuselage with a height that equals their length... so average sized air launched missiles should be fine but some of the really long missiles are going to need a An-124 sized aircraft....

    The fact that they need that big wind protector suggests this will be from large slow aircraft.... not MiG-31s or MiG-41s... which is fine because launching them vertically from an aircraft moving horizontally would provide benefits from the altitude but not from the flight speed so it would be the same as rolling them out the back of a transport plane at high altitude... and for many weapons that is good enough, while the efficient internal stacking would mean rather more weapons carried more efficiently.

    Imagine a transport with a 6m body height loaded with 6m long cruise missiles that is 5 metres wide and 60m long filled with vertical cells... say five cells across and 60 cells long... that is 5 x 60 = 300 missiles. The obvious problem of course is that that number of 1.5 ton missiles would be 450 tons... but an ekranoplan can carry quite heavy payloads... it is certainly more than two horizontal rotary launchers could carry.

    If we say each of the two weapon bays are 12m long and say 4m wide then 4 tubes wide and 12 tubes long times two is 48 times two... which is quite a large number of missiles too. 96 times 1.5 is quite heavy as well...

    For carrying long range AAMs and ABMs it would make more sense with high flying much faster aircraft and to benefit from the flight speed horizontal launch would be more valuable.

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    Post  Hole on Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:03 am

    Recon version of An-140-100 fitted with self-protection system.

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 21 26824510
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:23 pm


    Freshly built Tu-214 had it's first flight, it's definitely not for civilian airline so I'm putting it here

    Any idea what is it's intended purpose? (please be EW)

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/133518/

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:26 pm

    No big antennas so unlikely it is EW/ELINT. Maybe the tanker version ? The angle of the picture isn't helping...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:16 pm

    It will go to the government fleet. Transport of VIP.

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