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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 07, 2020 1:08 am

    Up to you Hole, would you like your posts moved to one or other of the above threads, or rename this thread to reflect a new topic/thread?
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    Post  Hole on Thu May 07, 2020 6:39 am

    The posts got nothing to do with procurement. The VVS news thread was closed as i wanted to put the infographics there. Maybe rename the thread to "air parades" or so. But there should be a general news thread for the air force, the army got one.
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    Post  George1 on Sat May 09, 2020 4:05 pm

    Russia holds air parade over Moscow’s Red Square on Victory Day


    A total of 75 helicopters and aircraft flew over Moscow’s Red Square

    MOSCOW, May 9. /TASS/. A parade formation of 75 helicopters and aircraft flew over Moscow’s Red Square to mark the 75th anniversary of the Soviet Union’s Victory over Nazi Germany in the 1941-1945 Great Patriotic War, TASS reported from the scene.

    Traditionally, the air parade started with the flyover of helicopters over Red Square, including the world’s largest
    Mi-26 military transport rotorcraft,
    Mi-8AMTSh multirole gunships,
    Mi-35M transport/attack helicopters,

    Ka-52 ‘Alligator’ reconnaissance/strike helicopters and
    the Mi-28N ‘Night Hunter’ helicopter of Russia’s Berkuts sole helicopter aerobatic team.

    The flyover of helicopters was followed by
    an A-50U long-range radar surveillance aircraft,
    three Il-76MD military transport planes and
    a trio of Tu-95MS long-range bombers. After that,
    four Tu-22M3 bombers led by a Tu-160 strategic aircraft appeared in the skies over Moscow’s Red Square. Following that, an Il-78 aerial refueling tanker flew over Red Square together with a Tu-160 strategic bomber imitating mid-air refueling.

    They were followed
    by a quartet of MiG-29SMT multirole frontline fighters and
    a quartet of Su-24M frontline bombers.

    Kinzhal hypersonic missiles, Russian Knights and Swifts aerobatic teams

    After that,
    four MiG-31K interceptor-fighters carrying Kinzhal air-launched hypersonic missiles appeared in the skies over Moscow together with a wing of four fifth-generation Su-57 multirole fighter jets.
    Two MiG-31K fighters outfitted with Kinzhal hypersonic missiles were the main attraction of the parade’s air component back in 2018. These airborne platforms have been on combat duty in the Russian Army since 2017. A Kinzhal hypersonic missile is capable of flying at over ten times the speed of sound and has an operating range of up to 2,000 km.

    After that, "a tactical air wing" of ten aircraft flew over Moscow’s Red Square.
    The tactical group included Su-34 bombers, Su-30SM and Su-35S fighters.

    They were followed by the world’s renowned Russian Knights and Swifts aerobatic teams. The crews of the aerobatic teams flying five Su-30SM and four MiG-29 fighters performed the Cuban Diamond stunt at a speed of about 550 km/h.

    The air parade was concluded by six Su-25 attack aircraft. They exhausted special fumes in the colors of the Russian national flag.

    The aircraft flew over Moscow’s Red Square at altitudes of 300 meters to 500 meters and at a speed of 500 km/h while the flyover of helicopters took place at an altitude of about 150 meters and at a speed of 200 km/h. Eight aerodromes in the Moscow, Lipetsk, Tver, Ivanovo, Saratov and Kaluga Regions were involved in the flights of aircraft and helicopters.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 29, 2020 2:50 pm

    Russia works on new MiG LMFS fifth-generation fighter jet
    https://www.pravdareport.com/news/science/144619-mig_fighter_jet/

    http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/111658/20170219/russia-developing-mig-1-44-derivative-back-up-troubled-sukhoi.htm
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2020 12:31 am

    Oh dear god those two articles are terrible...

    The Pravda report suggests the new plane might start out with two 10 ton thrust engines and eventually be fitted with one 18 ton thrust of the new type being developed for the Su-57.

    They are clearly morons... MiG works with Klimov for engines not Saturn... and changing a twin engined fighter to a single engined fighter would be a bloody nightmare... are they going to make it VSTOL as well while they are at it so it will only be a subsonic only aircraft too?

    And it is amusing they have no money to produce Su-57s if they can afford to essentially fund the development of a second stealth fighter... are these people retarded?

    The price for an Su-57 seems to be about 40 million... the new engines are not going to add 60 million dollars to the purchase price.

    Bigger aircraft cost more to operate and over time are more expensive that lighter aircraft, so having smaller and lighter but still capable fighters makes sense... not every problem requires a heavy stealth fighter to solve... and they have barely got the MiG-35 into production and these articles suggests it NEEDS replacement?

    The main difference between a light stealth fighter and a MiG-35 is that the MiG-35 is much cheaper to operate and is not stealthy.

    From what we have learned from US deployment of F-35 and F-22 aircraft to the middle east... these expensive white elephants are not stealthy enough for it to make a difference anyway.

    It is the west that is all or nothing... not Russia.

    America uses its air power for air defence and air attack... Russia has a system where every branch of their military has air defence assets... they use air defence guns and missiles together because they compliment each other not replace each other... they use rocket artillery and tube artillery together because they have different capabilities and each has useful features... Russia has nuclear powered subs and conventionally powered submarines because they are different enough to both be useful... Russia doesn't need or want an all stealth fighter fleet... that is the morons in the US and with all the problems of the F-35 they are starting to realise their all their eggs in one basket mistake... one company with a monopoly on fighter production becomes too big to fail... so of course it fails miserably.

    There have always been plans for a light stealth fighter in Russia and the plans were always that it would start working on a light stealth fighter when the heavy stealth fighter was entering service.... guess what geniuses (at pravda et al) the Su-57 is entering serial production, so of course it is now time to look at the light stealth fighter... but it wont be going into serial production for ten years and even then wont replace the Su-35 and MiG-35 or by then the MiG-41 or Su-34 which together with 250-300 Su-57s will be the core of their air force... they will make some of course... possibly 400-500 even if they are cheap enough to buy and operate... the navy might use them or they might want naval Su-57s instead.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 30, 2020 1:09 am

    The bottom line is that the MiG design teams must earn their living & the MiG-35 is a dead end, even if successful, being the last of the MiG-29 family.
    The MiG LMFS may or may not replace other fighters, but it's better to have 1 more 5th-generation fighter jet that'll be less expensive than the Su-57 & will have naval/export potential.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 30, 2020 5:43 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:...
    http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/111658/20170219/russia-developing-mig-1-44-derivative-back-up-troubled-sukhoi.htm

    MiG-1.44 makes Su-57 look as small as Yak-130

    They are supposed to be developing smaller plane not bigger one, that's the whole point of LMFS program

    And whatever progress was made in MiG-1.44 it's already been implemented (and surpassed) in Su-57 long ago

    If they are working on LMFS it will be based on tech from Su-57 not MiG-1.44

    That article is a joke



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    Post  George1 on Sat May 30, 2020 7:58 am

    Russian Ministry of Defense on escorting American B-1B bombers


    In connection with the May 29, 2020 flight of two Rockwell B-1B Lancer strategic bomber from the 28th US Air Force bomber wing from Ellsworth (South Dakota) air base from the continental United States to Europe, with the passage of airspace of Poland and Ukraine, Ministry of Defense The Russian Federation reported that on May 29, 2020, the air defense duty forces of the Western and Southern military districts timely revealed the actions of the US Air Force B-1B strategic bombers over the neutral waters of the Black and Baltic Seas and escorted them by Russian fighters.

    At a considerable distance from the state border of the Russian Federation, American bombers were continuously accompanied by Russian radar controls.

    To intercept targets, Su-27P and Su-30SM fighters from the air defense duty forces of the Southern Military District were raised.

    The crews of Russian fighters approached a safe distance from air targets, identified them as B-1B strategic aviation aircraft, after which the American bombers changed the direction of flight from the state border of the Russian Federation.

    Flights of Russian combat aircraft took place strictly in accordance with international airspace use regulations.

    After completing the task, Russian fighters returned safely to the airfields.


    Video "Interception of strategic bombers of the US Air Force" (c) Department of Defense of the Russian Federation:



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    Post  George1 on Sat May 30, 2020 8:11 am

    Interception over the Black Sea of ​​the British aircraft Sentinel R.1


    On May 29, 2020 over the Black Sea, in addition to two USAF strategic rocket bombers Rockwell B-1B Lancer, were also leading reconnaissance of the Crimea region, the US Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon patrol aircraft and the British Air Force Sentinel R.1 radar reconnaissance aircraft. In addition to intercepting both B-1Bs, Russian Su-30SM fighters from the 43rd Sevastopol Red Banner Separate Naval Assault Aviation Regiment of the Black Sea Fleet from Saki Airport intercepted and escorted the British Sentinel R.1 aircraft (board number ZJ691, call sign RRR7305). The interception video was distributed by the famous Fighterbomber network account.

    The British Royal Air Force has five Sentinel R.1 ground-based reconnaissance aircraft commissioned in 2008, made on the basis of the Bombardier Global XRS business jets and equipped with the Raytheon ASTOR (aka Sentinel Dual Mode Radar Sensor - DMRS) radar complex with AFAR . Data is transmitted via satellite communications equipment to a ground station. The aircraft are in service with the 5th squadron of the British Air Force at Waddington Air Base.

    Sentinel R.1 planes are supposed to be withdrawn from the British Air Force in March 2021 due to the high cost of the necessary modernization. It is reported that to replace them, the UK government is considering the acquisition of several additional Boeing P-8A Poseidon base patrol aircraft in the United States. Now the United Kingdom has ordered nine R-8A aircraft, the first two of which were delivered at the beginning of the year.



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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat May 30, 2020 7:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They are clearly morons... MiG works with Klimov for engines not Saturn... and changing a twin engined fighter to a single engined fighter would be a bloody nightmare... are they going to make it VSTOL as well while they are at it so it will only be a subsonic only aircraft too?

    I can see a two separate points here:
    1) journos fantasies - like which engine to go where well this is funny but off topic.


    2) There is a fact that there was already a grant from MiG for aerodynamic- calculations for new fighter. Nothing about stealth specifics.


    "In particular, at the end of last year, MiG RSK placed an order for the study "Aerodynamic calculation of a light multi-functional front-line twin-engine aircraft, comparison with foreign analogues" for the period 2020-2025. Information about this was posted on the public procurement portal. "

    https://ria.ru/20200416/1570107844.html


    BTW not there is not gonna be neither MiG nor Su companies anymore. There are different divisions of Rostec/OAK. SO they can cooperate if there will be any requirement for that.



    GB wrote:But
    And it is amusing they have no money to produce Su-57s if they can afford to essentially fund the development of a second stealth fighter... are these people retarded?


    Hmmm you're right in case aircraft evolution ended up on Su-57 and there is no need to invest in future platforms. Otherwise no you're wrong and Russian MoD is right.






    The main difference between a light stealth fighter and a MiG-35 is that the MiG-35 is much cheaper to operate and is not stealthy.


    As far as I understand it this is about very early calculations so not even serious work started. So we are talking about 20 years after start of work on Su-57. This is not MiG-35 competitor but perhaps even new gen to Su-57





    GB wrote:There have always been plans for a light stealth fighter in Russia and the plans were always that it would start working on a light stealth fighter when the heavy stealth fighter was entering service.... guess what geniuses (at pravda et al) the Su-57 is entering serial production, so of course it is now time to look at the light stealth fighter... but it wont be going into serial production for ten years

    depends on funding and requirements but I'd say closer to 20 years.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 30, 2020 8:45 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:MiG-1.44 makes Su-57 look as small as Yak-130
    no, their dimensions r very similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Specifications_(Su-57)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44#Specifications_(Project_1.42/44)

    A smaller/lighter variant, perhaps with 1 engine may be in the cards.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2020 8:35 am

    The bottom line is that the MiG design teams must earn their living & the MiG-35 is a dead end, even if successful, being the last of the MiG-29 family.

    There is nothing about the F-35 that makes me think it is a better aircraft than the MiG-35, but in terms of operational costs and purchase price the F-35 will bankrupt most HATO countries that operate it.

    When the brand new weapons for the Su-57 are revealed and put in service and the MiG-35 and Su-35 start deploying them too it is going to make the F-35 look sad.

    If anything the F-35 is a dead end in the sense that it is so flawed and so expensive it will empty the budgets of all the air forces that are stupid enough to use it.

    The MiG LMFS may or may not replace other fighters, but it's better to have 1 more 5th-generation fighter jet that'll be less expensive than the Su-57 & will have naval/export potential.

    The LMFS is a small numbers plane... the Russian Navy don't need numbers when it comes to carrier based aircraft because at most they might end up with two CVNs and one CV... so they wont need an enormous number of planes to operate from them. In fact the MiG-35 is carrier capable so they could use aircraft that operate on land and at sea instead of separate types... Su-57s that are carrier capable would be ideal offering the best possible performance and for $40 million per aircraft they are cheap as hell... a light model wont be very much cheaper than that... hell 40 million will be what they would pay for an Apache helicopter...
    Not a 5th gen heavy stealth fighter....

    And whatever progress was made in MiG-1.44 it's already been implemented (and surpassed) in Su-57 long ago

    If they are working on LMFS it will be based on tech from Su-57 not MiG-1.44

    I am sure the guys at MiG are aware of what Sukhoi are doing with their Su-57s, but you are dead right there is no way they would design a small fighter to be based on a big fighter scaled down... that would be stupid.

    The MiG design bureau had a design that was a competition piece to the S-37, and they also had a different design that was competing for the LMFS or small 5th gen fighter competition... there were entries from MiG, Yakovlev, and Sukhoi... now they are going to compete for the new small stealth fighter programme now that the heavy stealth fighter is going in to serial production.

    2) There is a fact that there was already a grant from MiG for aerodynamic- calculations for new fighter. Nothing about stealth specifics.

    It might not be super stealthy but even the MiG-35 and Su-35 have RAM and reshaping to take the edges off the RCS...

    Reducing the stealth requirements is like reducing the speed requirements... it makes it more affordable and with any potential breakthroughs in optical or radar detection of targets I suspect a plane that was stealthy before might not remain so for very long anyway.

    BTW not there is not gonna be neither MiG nor Su companies anymore. There are different divisions of Rostec/OAK. SO they can cooperate if there will be any requirement for that.

    They have been kept as separate entities for a reason and they will retain their separate supply contractors most likely too.

    Hmmm you're right in case aircraft evolution ended up on Su-57 and there is no need to invest in future platforms. Otherwise no you're wrong and Russian MoD is right.

    The fact is that they do have money and are using it sensibly and carefully and not wasting it like America does. They are not going to buy 3,500 Su-57s, but they are not going to leave it at 76 either.

    A small stealth fighter is not an enormous priority... they are doing it now because the heavy stealth fighter is ready and work on a small fighter wont detract from the goal of getting it into production and service.


    As far as I understand it this is about very early calculations so not even serious work started.

    MiG have been working on this new light plane since the MiG-29 went in to service. Over the decades their design has probably changed a dozen times... but likely only for the better...

    So we are talking about 20 years after start of work on Su-57. This is not MiG-35 competitor but perhaps even new gen to Su-57

    The Su-57 is not intended to replace the Su-30 or Su-35 or Su-34... there will be a few situations where its stealth will allow it to do some things those planes can't but for the vast majority of jobs those non stealthy planes remain the best choice.

    Ask Israel... how often will they be able to fly an 80K dollar per hour stealth plane to fly through the hills next to Syria to lob stand off munitions at targets there when an F-16 could do it for a fraction of the price and in amongst the mountains with the same radar cross section.

    If it was the F-16 lurking in the mountains and the F-35 could fly down the main runway at Heminem without being seen by anyone then I would say money well spent... but the fact is that neither aircraft could do that so why replace the F-16 with a plane that carries less over shorter distances and is a lot slower and vastly more expensive to buy and to operate.

    Any new light stealth fighter they make in Russia will be affordable to buy and operate and will be used together with the MiG-35 to provide numbers to protect the airspace around Russia and the places she operates. New technology developed for this new stealthy plane will be used to further upgrade the MiG-35 so numbers of both planes will be valuable and get investments and further development.

    For export that means you can buy a related family of planes from the MiG-29M2 which is the base aircraft that will be cheap but capable and with enormous potential growth to the MiG-29KR which is essentially a naval model though they said the new MiG-35 will be carrier capable too so fully dual use land and ship based fighter... its strengthened undercarriage would be a bonus for landing on strips of motorway... and of course the new model fighter with a stealthy airframe but related avionics and systems so if you need a stealthy plane you could probably order a dumbed down MiG-29M2 version, or get the export model with all the stuff you could probably get on the MiG-35 now but in a stealthy package.

    depends on funding and requirements but I'd say closer to 20 years.

    This is not a new programme so to speak... they knew what they were doing and that this time was coming and they haven't been sitting doing nothing all this time... they will have been narrowing down the two or three options for testing so they can get started as quick as possible.

    no, their dimensions r very similar

    Of course they are similar... the MiG-1.44 and 1.42 were MiGs entry to the competition that led to the Su-57 being developed...


    A smaller/lighter variant, perhaps with 1 engine may be in the cards.

    They have had another 20 years to refine their designs... I really don't think a scaled down version of what failed before is going to cut it...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 31, 2020 10:34 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The bottom line is that the MiG design teams must earn their living & the MiG-35 is a dead end, even if successful, being the last of the MiG-29 family.
    2) There is a fact that there was already a grant from MiG for aerodynamic- calculations for new fighter. Nothing about stealth specifics.

    It might not be super stealthy but even the MiG-35 and Su-35 have RAM and reshaping to take the edges off the RCS...

    Reducing the stealth requirements is like reducing the speed requirements... it makes it more affordable and with any potential breakthroughs in optical or radar detection of targets I suspect a plane that was stealthy before might not remain so for very long anyway.


    Looks like reasonable  way to go for me. Besides next gen fighters likely should be (or have) autonomous flight possibilities.



    GB wrote:
    BTW not there is not gonna be neither MiG nor Su companies anymore. There are different divisions of Rostec/OAK. SO they can cooperate if there will be any requirement for that.

    They have been kept as separate entities for a reason and they will retain their separate supply contractors most likely too.


    Perhaps you you are right in short term. But I doubt in long one. then why to unite all companies is there is not for cost optimization?




    GB wrote:
    Hmmm you're right in case aircraft evolution ended up on Su-57 and there is no need to invest in future platforms. Otherwise no you're wrong and Russian MoD is right.

    The fact is that they do have money and are using it sensibly and carefully and not wasting it like America does. They are not going to buy 3,500 Su-57s, but they are not going to leave it at 76 either.

    A small stealth fighter is not an enormous priority... they are doing it now because the heavy stealth fighter is ready and work on a small fighter wont detract from the goal of getting it into production and service.



    Spending wise is more important IMHO then "uber-patriotic  wounded pride" or western bitching.  If they invest in too many projects economy cannot sustain that. Balancing economic growth and military is also a separate operations theater. Im glad Russia is coping with that pretty well.

    As for fighter - it is just continuous development, gen after gen.  Same with US, EU  or China.



    GB wrote:
    As far as I understand it this is about very early calculations so not even serious work started.

    MiG have been working on this new light plane since the MiG-29 went in to service. Over the decades their design has probably changed a dozen times... but likely only for the better...

    That's how I see it.



    GB wrote:
    Tsavo wrote:
    A smaller/lighter variant, perhaps with 1 engine may be in the cards.

    They have had another 20 years to refine their designs... I really don't think a scaled down version of what failed before is going to cut it...


    well, ekhm grant was saying about 2 engine fighter calculations :-)))
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun May 31, 2020 12:04 pm

    [quote="GunshipDemocracy"]
    GarryB wrote:
    The bottom line is that the MiG design teams must earn their living & the MiG-35 is a dead end, even if successful, being the last of the MiG-29 family.
    2) There is a fact that there was already a grant from MiG for aerodynamic- calculations for new fighter. Nothing about stealth specifics.

    It might not be super stealthy but even the MiG-35 and Su-35 have RAM and reshaping to take the edges off the RCS...

    Reducing the stealth requirements is like reducing the speed requirements... it makes it more affordable and with any potential breakthroughs in optical or radar detection of targets I suspect a plane that was stealthy before might not remain so for very long anyway.


    Looks like reasonable  way to go for me. Besides next gen fighters likely should be (or have) autonomous flight possibilities.



    GB wrote:
    BTW not there is not gonna be neither MiG nor Su companies anymore. There are different divisions of Rostec/OAK. SO they can cooperate if there will be any requirement for that.

    They have been kept as separate entities for a reason and they will retain their separate supply contractors most likely too.


    Perhaps you you are right in short term. But I doubt in long one. then why to unite all companies is there is not for cost optimization?
    GB wrote:
    Having separate design bureau and separate supple chain and subcontractors (and different plants) at least ensures that if they have problems with one design, or even with one set of components for one the companies (e.g. sukhoi) , because of difficulties with one of the suppliers , at least the product from the other companies will not be affected...

    Ad an example, mig29 (and mig35) have Klimov engines, while su-27 and derivatives have Lyulka (now Saturn) engines (AL in AL-41 stands for Arkhip Lyulka).

    And for the main radars they have Tikhomirov radars on the Sukhoi and Phasatron on the Migs (even if earlier they supplied radars also for su27)


    Of course it is important that engineers from the two companies talk and exchange information and lessons learned...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:00 am

    Looks like reasonable way to go for me. Besides next gen fighters likely should be (or have) autonomous flight possibilities.

    Indeed... manned and unmanned versions are rather likely...

    Perhaps you you are right in short term. But I doubt in long one. then why to unite all companies is there is not for cost optimization?

    The cost optimisation is uniting the bean counters and managers, while keeping two or more separate strands of engineers and therefore also diversity and skills sets... there is no point in keeping MiG and Sukhoi and Yakovlev and Tupolev and Ilyusion as separate entities if you then just mash together the engine and radar and avionics companies together into one big blob and get rid of all their skilled engineers and find they don't have anyone that knows anything about the Zaslon radar or the radar in the Su-34 for instance.

    Keep the design bureaus and the radar and engine companies... Saturn and Klimov make more than just MiG and Sukhoi engines... Klimov now makes their helicopter engines and Saturn makes marine turbine engines too... and the different radar companies are also valuable to keep individual skill sets for.

    Otherwise you get all your fighter planes from Boeing and all your bombers from Boeing and all your tankers from Boeing etc etc etc

    If they invest in too many projects economy cannot sustain that. Balancing economic growth and military is also a separate operations theater. Im glad Russia is coping with that pretty well.

    But those projects are normal improvement and would continue even without new aircraft projects like the LMFS... because while it is a new plane from scratch with new technologies... the state of the art equipment is going to end up going into the MiG-35 family too, so it will raise the performance bar for a lot more aircraft than are purchased new as brand new light stealth fighters... unlike the US they wont be withdrawing their older planes and replacing them with super expensive stealthy models... they can save money yet improve performance by updating existing aircraft with new systems and weapons while also getting stealthy models too.

    well, ekhm grant was saying about 2 engine fighter calculation

    ?

    A twin engined aircraft means more internal volume can be created which can translate directly to more space for internal stealthy weapons carriage and fuel capacity... single engined fighters have much less internal space/frontal area, so extra volume looks ugly like conformal fuel tanks to increase fuel fraction.

    Having separate design bureau and separate supple chain and subcontractors (and different plants) at least ensures that if they have problems with one design, or even with one set of components for one the companies (e.g. sukhoi) , because of difficulties with one of the suppliers , at least the product from the other companies will not be affected...

    It also creates real competition for programmes which is good but because each design bureau is big and relatively diversified stuff developed for one competition is not just wasted money and time and effort... if you don't believe me look at the MiG-1.44 and then look at some new Chinese stealth designs...

    Of course it is important that engineers from the two companies talk and exchange information and lessons learned...

    Indeed, we don't want these people to be killing each other over jobs, but sometimes collaboration makes more sense where one DB has experience in one area but another DB has related experience that could also be used to help make it better...

    Sukhoi came up with the T-4 Mach 3 bomber design but had no experience making heavy bombers so the task of making it was given to Tupolev... who ended up scaling back the difficulty and ended up making the Tu-22.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:46 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Perhaps you you are right in short term. But I doubt in long one. then why to unite all companies is there is not for cost optimization?

    The cost optimisation is uniting the bean counters and managers, while keeping two or more separate strands of engineers and therefore also diversity and skills sets... there is no point in keeping MiG and Sukhoi and Yakovlev and Tupolev and Ilyusion as separate entities if you then just mash together the engine and radar and avionics companies together into one big blob and get rid of all their skilled engineers and find they don't have anyone that knows anything about the Zaslon radar or the radar in the Su-34 for instance.


    Well, having separate engineering departments doesn't exclude being in one organization right? OF course it is my opinion, but they shall have more flexibility to find what they need across the whole company.



    GB wrote:Otherwise you get all your fighter planes from Boeing and all your bombers from Boeing and all your tankers from Boeing etc etc etc

    Same as in France, Germany or UK for example? Size of economy for example here does matter. besides in the US you have what 2 aerospace competitors?




    GB wrote:
    If they invest in too many projects economy cannot sustain that. Balancing economic growth and military is also a separate operations theater. Im glad Russia is coping with that pretty well.

    But those projects are normal improvement and would continue even without new aircraft projects like the LMFS... because while it is a new plane from scratch with new technologies... the state of the art equipment is going to end up going into the MiG-35 family too, so it will raise the performance bar for a lot more aircraft than are purchased new as brand new light stealth fighters... unlike the US they wont be withdrawing their older planes and replacing them with super expensive stealthy models... they can save money yet improve performance by updating existing aircraft with new systems and weapons while also getting stealthy models too.


    USAF is not going to retire F-15 either just upgrade ;-) MiG-35 is good for next couple of years but not really promising as newest F-18 of Eurofighter models.
    Whether MiG-35 will be accepted to RuAF is IMHO dependent on intl situation, if there will be no need for expediency in fighter manufacturing it might be rather low priority one. Nothing wrong with that just Polikarpov I-185 didnt go to series either and was pretty kickass fighter.




    GarryBee wrote:
    well, ekhm grant was saying about 2 engine fighter calculation

    ?

    A twin engined aircraft means more internal volume can be created which can translate directly to more space for internal stealthy weapons carriage and fuel capacity... single engined fighters have much less internal space/frontal area, so extra volume looks ugly like conformal fuel tanks to increase fuel fraction.


    I was referring to idea of single engine version of Su-57 Razz Razz Razz



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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:43 am

    MiG-35 is good for next couple of years but not really promising as newest F-18 of Eurofighter models.

    Why do you think that? The new photonic radar technology should make Russian fighters pretty exceptional until western fighters get the same equipment, and certainly in close combat a MiG-35 with 3D thrust vectoring engines would leave both aircraft in the dust... and for a significantly fewer number of rubles...

    Whether MiG-35 will be accepted to RuAF is IMHO dependent on intl situation, if there will be no need for expediency in fighter manufacturing it might be rather low priority one. Nothing wrong with that just Polikarpov I-185 didnt go to series either and was pretty kickass fighter.

    The MiG is much cheaper to operate than the Flankers, and having smaller fighters makes sense as they often offer better coverage.

    They also introduce a flexibility you don't get with an all Flanker fleet.

    I was referring to idea of single engine version of Su-57

    What would be the point?

    It would reduce the takeoff weight dramatically, and totally eliminate post stall manouver performance with one vectored thrust engine only... for the myth of the cheaper maintainence on the single engined fighter?

    So how cheap is the F-35 then?

    Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:28 am

    Yeah, the mig35 is a deep modernisation of the mig29M and has nothing to envy to the Rafal, gripen, eurofighter or F18. And new radars and engines could still be added later.

    In this article from 2007 they mentioned that Klimov already started working on a further engine evolution to the mig29 and mig 35 engines
    https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
    Flightglobal (May 2007) wrote:
    The current production-standard RD-33MK selected for Indian navy MiG-29K/KUBs develops 20,000lb of thrust and has a 1,000h TBO. The engine has a wider-chord fan for 6% greater airflow, full-authority digital control, a new "multi-section" no-smoke combustor and three-dimensional aerodynamics in the turbine. In 2006, RSK MiG's Chernyshev plant assembled four RD-33MKs to support flight testing of the first twin-seat MiG-29KUB, which made its maiden flight in January.

    Another application for the RD-33MK powerplant is the MiG-35 that MiG plans to offer for India's multi-role combat aircraft requirement. A further option is the RD-33MKV (for vectoring), which has the same thrust rating, but which is fitted with a Klimov swivelling nozzle. This is currently being tested on a MiG-29OVT technology demonstrator.

    In April last year Klimov announced that it had begun design of a new engine for the LFI next-generation lightweight fighter being developed by MiG. Although MiG has yet to define all of its requirements for the engine, Klimov has said it will be an upgrade of the RD-33 with 25,300lb thrust, vectoring nozzle and modular design.

    A further evolution of such engine could be also retrofitted to the mig35, and give supercruise capabilities...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    MiG-35 is good for next couple of years but not really promising as newest F-18 of Eurofighter models.

    Why do you think that? The new photonic radar technology should make Russian fighters pretty exceptional until western fighters get the same equipment, and certainly in close combat a MiG-35 with 3D thrust vectoring engines would leave both aircraft in the dust... and for a significantly fewer number of rubles...


    putting new tech in old frames makes little sense if you can have new tech in new frames. That's why IMHO it depdned on expediency when more fighters are really needed. No immediate need ->"lets wait for new design".

    BTW aren't Eu-fighter and MiG-35 on pair wrt speed?



    Whether MiG-35 will be accepted to RuAF is IMHO dependent on intl situation, if there will be no need for expediency in fighter manufacturing it might be rather low priority one. Nothing wrong with that just Polikarpov I-185 didnt go to series either and was pretty kickass fighter.

    The MiG is much cheaper to operate than the Flankers, and having smaller fighters makes sense as they often offer better coverage.

    They also introduce a flexibility you don't get with an all Flanker fleet. [/quote]


    Too many Flakners already (Su-34, 30, 35, 27 all modifications ) in service + Su-57. Yet another type of fighters to keep supply chain for? unlikely this is cheaper. MiG-29s are legacy for RuAF. No new is actually procured in numbers for a reason.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:25 am

    putting new tech in old frames makes little sense if you can have new tech in new frames. That's why IMHO it depdned on expediency when more fighters are really needed. No immediate need ->"lets wait for new design".

    Aerodynamically there is nothing wrong with the MiG-35s airframe and a "newer" airframe is just code for stealthy... which might make it less manouverable rather than more manouverable and in terms of effectiveness the level of stealth needs to be selected... too stealthy and it becomes too expensive to maintain and operate during peace time... not stealthy enough and it is not worth the extra cost of making it stealthy.

    And no stealth fighter is invisible to IR and EO systems anyway so we are talking radar stealth only which is also seriously compromised by ground based systems and airborne systems too.

    With TVC engines on the MiG, the Hornet and Eurofighter are dead in close combat, and the DAS and DIRCMs and ESM of the MiG means it will be gun vs gun in a gun fight where TVC is critical.

    BTW aren't Eu-fighter and MiG-35 on pair wrt speed?

    Not sure why you think speed is important... but they would be similar...

    Too many Flakners already (Su-34, 30, 35, 27 all modifications ) in service + Su-57. Yet another type of fighters to keep supply chain for? unlikely this is cheaper. MiG-29s are legacy for RuAF. No new is actually procured in numbers for a reason.

    What are you talking about... those flankers and the Su-57 are essentially two different types that could all use the same radar and engines and weapons and parts.

    Adding one more type... the MiG-35 to replace the MiG-29S/SM/SMT/ and other models still in use including the naval KR models simply makes a lot of sense... especially when the single and two seat aircraft use the same airframe and are the same except number of seats/cockpit displays...
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:47 pm

    any news on Ka-60, Mi-38, and TVS 2DTS (An-2 replacement) havent heard anything for ages, i believe Mi-38 is a lot further along than the Ka-60
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:34 pm

    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 20 1591420590_1591420641

    In the future, Russian combat aircraft may receive vertical launchers for missiles, the launch of which will be carried out in mortar shells. A patent for the corresponding invention is published in the database of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS).

    The mortar launch of guided aircraft missiles, anti-missiles and other ammunition from vertical launchers was offered by specialists of Design Bureau Fakel named after Grushin and NPP Radar MMS. According to the inventors, this method of firing is safer and allows you to launch missiles even from an airplane standing on the ground.

    The method of vertical air launch of missiles includes the vertical launch of a rocket from a launch container placed on an air carrier

    - TASS quotes an extract from the patent.

    Launching missiles from a vertical launcher in a mortar or “cold start” assumes that the missile will be ejected from the launcher without turning on the engine, i.e. with the help of some kind of knockout charge. The rocket starts its engines already at a safe distance from the carrier. To compensate for pressure from the oncoming air flow, the authors propose the use of stabilization engines in the bow of the rockets.

    Note that the “cold start” is well known and widely used in Russian weapons, for example, to launch ICBMs, in some anti-aircraft missile systems, etc. The authors of the invention opposed their method of launching missiles from the vertical launchers of an aircraft, which the Americans considered unsafe. Developers from the United States offered a "hot" start when the rocket engine turned on even in the launch container.

    https://topwar.ru/171889-v-rossii-zapatentovali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:14 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 20 1591420590_1591420641

    In the future, Russian combat aircraft may receive vertical launchers for missiles, the launch of which will be carried out in mortar shells. A patent for the corresponding invention is published in the database of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS).

    The mortar launch of guided aircraft missiles, anti-missiles and other ammunition from vertical launchers was offered by specialists of Design Bureau Fakel named after Grushin and NPP Radar MMS. According to the inventors, this method of firing is safer and allows you to launch missiles even from an airplane standing on the ground.

    The method of vertical air launch of missiles includes the vertical launch of a rocket from a launch container placed on an air carrier

    - TASS quotes an extract from the patent.

    Launching missiles from a vertical launcher in a mortar or “cold start” assumes that the missile will be ejected from the launcher without turning on the engine, i.e. with the help of some kind of knockout charge. The rocket starts its engines already at a safe distance from the carrier. To compensate for pressure from the oncoming air flow, the authors propose the use of stabilization engines in the bow of the rockets.

    Note that the “cold start” is well known and widely used in Russian weapons, for example, to launch ICBMs, in some anti-aircraft missile systems, etc. The authors of the invention opposed their method of launching missiles from the vertical launchers of an aircraft, which the Americans considered unsafe. Developers from the United States offered a "hot" start when the rocket engine turned on even in the launch container.

    https://topwar.ru/171889-v-rossii-zapatentovali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html

    Air Launch: How Invented a New Way to Launch Missiles from Aircraft

    The mortar launch into space is not a forgotten, but also an unrealized idea. Perhaps everything will change.

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 20 S1_d_850

    An event has happened that is rare enough for our country. A patent was issued for launching missiles from aircraft using vertical launchers. It was received by developers from the Engineering Fakel Design Bureau named after Academician Grushin and NPP Radar Mms. A message about this is contained on the website of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property (FIPS). Our engineers have many breakthrough inventions. But they are very rarely patented.

    The description of the invention says that the method of vertical air launch of missiles includes a vertical launch from a launch container placed on an air carrier. In this way, it will be possible to launch guided missiles, anti-missiles and ballistic missiles.

    Such a launch is sometimes called a "mortar." The peculiarity is that the rocket propulsion engine does not turn on in the launcher, but later, when the rocket moves to a safe distance from the aircraft. The initial launch of the rocket and its ejection from the launcher is carried out, for example, using a pneumatic balloon or a powder pressure accumulator.

    Everything is fine, but there is nothing special to enjoy. A paper patent was received for what the domestic "Ilona Masks" tried to practically implement at the beginning of this century, that is, almost twenty years ago. It was an Air Launch project. And it is worth remembering.

    In a long-standing project, by the way, actively supported by the then existing Russian Aerospace Agency, it was envisaged to launch a launch vehicle with satellites on board from a height of 10-11 km from an air launch platform. As a carrier aircraft, it was proposed to use a modification of the heaviest serial transport aircraft An-124-100 Ruslan.

    To implement the project, the An-124-100, which was in a dead state, was purchased from the Air Force. Only to clean the fuselage from bird droppings required several heavy trucks. The private company that took the plane pledged at its own expense to restore the huge airliner to working condition, and then on its basis to carry out the whole complex of experimental and test work for the implementation of an air launch. This required money. They began to earn on the transportation of bulky goods. At the same time, detailed calculations were carried out on a promising rocket and work to attract investors.

    In the interim, the Polet launch vehicle was created, in which it was supposed to use environmentally friendly components of rocket fuel “liquid oxygen + kerosene”.

    This missile was just supposed to be dropped from Ruslan in a container from which it would launch "in a mortar". One of the most difficult tasks is to simultaneously land a cargo with a mass comparable to an airplane. They decided it. It was proved that it is quite possible and safe, under a certain flight mode, to drop in the launch zone a launch vehicle weighing 100 tons or more within the carrying capacity of the An-124-100 carrier aircraft.

    It was proved that the Launch vehicle, launched in an air launch mode, is capable of launching satellites weighing up to 3.5 tons into low polar orbits, up to 4.5 tons into low equatorial orbits, and up to 0.85 tons into orbits of navigation systems GLONASS and Galileo, up to 0.8 tons per geostationary orbit.

    When equipping geostationary satellites with an apogee propulsion system, which ensures the satellite’s transition from a geo-transitional orbit to a geostationary one, the “Launch” launch vehicle made it possible to launch satellites weighing up to 1 ton into geostationary orbit. To the Moon and on the flight paths, the Air Start system was supposed to launch spacecraft weighing 1 ... 1.2 tons.

    It is worth repeating that all this was calculated in detail and partially tested almost twenty years ago. Even Elon Musk himself does not dream about this today.

    Naturally, the Russian project aroused interest abroad. Since it was most advantageous to launch missiles using the technology of air launch from the equator, Indonesia even proposed using one of its equatorial islands for these purposes. Provided that she will enter the project.

    A real spaceport was supposed to be built at the Frans Kaisiepo airdrome (Biak Island). Work was supposed to go with joint Russian-Indonesian funding. An interstate agreement was even signed.

    But then the then leadership of the Air Force recalled that the An-124-100, which was completely restored at the expense of a private investor, formally remained in their ownership. How so? The plane flies, brings profit to someone, and the Air Force commander aside. That commander in chief did not even remember about the project "Air Launch", which in its implementation went to the finish line. But he made every effort to pick up Ruslan and actually destroy one of the most promising space projects in Russia. It was funded, it is worth repeating, by an individual. The Russian Ilon Mask did not take place - the Air Force was not allowed, or rather, their commander in chief, whose last name does not make sense.

    I would like to believe that the Fakel Machine-Building Design Bureau and the Radar Mms patented their invention will be able to bring the paper document to iron. On the other hand, there is a question.

    For a number of technical and technological solutions for the Air Launch project, developed in a preliminary design and confirmed by modeling, 24 patents were received in six countries of the world that possess rocket technologies (USA, Ukraine, France, Germany, Great Britain, Russia). Surely the authors of that project did not begin to patent one of their main achievements - the mortar launch technology?

    https://rg.ru/2020/06/06/vozdushnyj-start-kak-izobretali-novyj-sposob-zapuska-raket-s-samoletov.html
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:38 am

    any news on Ka-60, Mi-38, and TVS 2DTS (An-2 replacement) havent heard anything for ages, i believe Mi-38 is a lot further along than the Ka-60

    AFAIK the delays with those programmes are Russian engines and all Russian parts that are delaying things... of course the biggest hurdle for Mi-38 is that Mi-17 is still in demand and production... but I guess its improved performance is going to win it some customers too.

       
    Russia has patented a new way to launch missiles from aircraft



    Interesting... I always thought the idea of their twin barrel 23mm cannon used to launch flare and chaff rounds was clever and that a 30mm or 40mm model could be used to rapidly deploy chaff clouds and IR screens in clusters around the aircraft without needing to cover the surface with launchers that leave open hollow tubes that must magnify RCS issues...

    The weapon pylons with R-77 missiles use an arm launcher that throws the missile down and away from the aircraft before launch to ensure proper clean separation and clearance before the weapons rocket motor is started up.

    Conformal missiles like the R-37M also have similar structures to allow the weapons to clear the parasitic airflow that would push the weapons back up into the fuselage of the aircraft when the missile is released... potentially damaging the aircraft and the missiles control fins.

    Launching weapons upwards has been considered problematic because access is an issue... note a weapon bay that opens upwards and releases bombs and missiles upwards could double the internal capacity for weapons by better utilising available space but obviously there needs to be some way of pushing the weapons up with enough force that the slip stream slows them down and they fall behind the aircraft for unpowered weapons and for powered weapons their motors light up and accelerate them away from the aircraft without making contact.

    Imagine the small wing root mounted missile positions on the Su-57... imagine a dozen more on top of the aircraft body and a centre area where larger missiles can be loaded and launched... significantly increasing the number of internal weapons available to the pilot in combat...

    The doors would open and the arm would throw the weapon up and several metres clear of the aircraft and the motors on the missiles light up and away goes the weapon toward the target... weapon bay closes...

    For small weapons like 9M100 anti missile missiles with thrust vector rocket motors they could be facing forwards or backwards...

    The main problem is that it probably wouldn't work well with heavy weapons... most normal aircraft would not have the vertical depth to have a large weapon mounted angled up and a launch tube to fire it...

    For something like a MiG-41 it could have a section down the middle with vertically located but angled forward like the Granits on a Kirov with a very short burn rocket motor to effectively blow the 6-8 metre long missile up at a 45 degree angle out of the fuselage of the aircraft and clear of the aircraft and then the main rocket motors of the missiles fire and take them up nearly vertically to rapidly climb to thinner air for max speed perhaps with a scramjet motor benefitting from the high altitude and high speed launch to maximise range.

    During WWII some fighter planes had bombs vertically stored behind the pilots position to reduce inflight drag and centralise the mass near the cg so when they were dropped the aircraft didn't become unbalanced... They dropped them down obviously but the idea is similar in terms of increasing places where weapons are kept without external drag or using up limited available hard points...

    Note removed posts from this thread regarding Indias options for MiGs and Flankers is here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8092-indias-options-for-new-fighters
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    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:43 pm

    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2 - Page 20 001416
    "Mortar" launch method from planes/ekranoplans.

    Sponsored content

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    Post  Sponsored content


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