Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5188
    Points : 5182
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:18 pm

    Tu-160 set a record for the range and duration of a non-stop flight
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 770
    Points : 800
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr on Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:57 am

    has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9984
    Points : 10062
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:23 am

    mnztr wrote:has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?

    It can't

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27382
    Points : 27914
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm

    Removed all the stuff about replacing carriers with strategic bombers and and the arctic etc etc.... to the talking bollocks thread in the general chat section.

    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 433
    Points : 433
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  owais.usmani on Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:20 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 12312810

    George1, flamming_python, dino00, magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, kvs, tanino and like this post

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1469
    Points : 1508
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 33
    Location : portugal

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  dino00 on Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:57 pm

    Tu-160M ​​first took to the air with new engines russia

    MOSCOW, November 3 - RIA Novosti. The deeply modernized Tu-160M bomber made its maiden flight with new engines, the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) reported .
    "The first flight of Tu-160M ​​with new production engines NK-32-02 took place at the KAZ aerodrome named after Gorbunov. The plane was piloted by the crew led by Anri Naskidyants. The flight took place at an altitude of 6,000 meters and lasted 2 hours and 20 minutes," the company noted.

    https://ria.ru/20201103/dvigatel-1582868395.html

    franco, markgreven, Big_Gazza, kvs, Maximmmm, thegopnik, LMFS and lancelot like this post

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3664
    Points : 3662
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:02 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Tu-16011
    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Tu-16012

    markgreven, George1, dino00, Big_Gazza, PapaDragon, Maximmmm, zardof and lyle6 like this post

    Maximmmm
    Maximmmm

    Posts : 229
    Points : 232
    Join date : 2015-07-27
    Location : Switzerland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Maximmmm on Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:42 pm

    It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2211
    Points : 2211
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:55 pm

    Nice pic of the NK-32-02

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 8486920_original

    George1, Arrow, dino00, kvs, PapaDragon, Maximmmm, DerWolf and like this post

    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 770
    Points : 800
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr on Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:38 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not the M2 TU-160. Its a completed older frame and a testbed for the new avionics.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3664
    Points : 3662
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Hole on Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:44 pm

    That´s why he wrote "new Tu-160 flying soon". Wink

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27382
    Points : 27914
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:24 am

    There were four unfinished Tu-160s when the Ukraine stopped cooperating... two of which were completed but two more that could not be completed because the box structure that houses the swing wing structure is huge and is made of titanium that has to be wielded in a low oxygen forge... the only place on the planet that could do that was now in the Ukraine, so they were never going to complete those two planes because the cost of building a forge big enough to complete them would be enormously expensive and not something that could be justified to finish two planes.

    Fortunately for Tupolev Russia has decided to make the PAK DA which will be a large flying wing made of large titanium sections with large one piece box structures that required a similar forge to the one used to make the original Blackjacks... but in this case built in Russia.

    Who knows they might use the same facility to make the PAK DP high speed interceptor...

    The point is that now they can build more Blackjacks and make them into a viable and useful fleet of aircraft that will become more affordable... with fifty more aircraft that means 200 more engines and unification with the Tu-22M3M design means 60 of those will need another 120 engines so that is 320 engines they need which makes developing a brand new engine viable as well... and guess what... the engine for the subsonic strategic range PAK DA flying wing that will be based on this new engine will also be useful for long range airliners and heavy and super heavy transports as well... a gift that just keeps giving.

    The first 16 odd Blackjacks were different... lots of changes.... a bit like prototypes in many ways... but now they can focus on a new revised and improved design they can apply to new planes and to upgrade older planes to this new standard so they will be cheaper and easier to service... right now they likely have a service manual for each aircraft showing the differences and different equipment etc... not so efficient or desirable.
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 770
    Points : 800
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:05 am

    Will the last 2 unfinished be completed or will they just go ahead with the M2 variant?
    Maximmmm
    Maximmmm

    Posts : 229
    Points : 232
    Join date : 2015-07-27
    Location : Switzerland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Maximmmm on Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:19 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not the M2 TU-160. Its a completed older frame and a testbed for the new avionics.

    Yeah you're right and it's why I wrote "soon".
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 8272
    Points : 8417
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  kvs on Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:46 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Pretty acceptable? Two years is miraculous. Even China with all its massive resources couldn't pull something off like this.
    As for the USA, it is hard to tell what engine innovation they actually have. I do not think they evenhave an NK-32 class engine.
    The GE F101 is basically half of the NK-32. Given the rot in the US MIC, it would take more than 2 years for even just an
    improved version of GE F101 to be put into service. And that is without losing the production infrastructure.

    People are always putting Russia down, whether consciously or subconsciously. All that hate propaganda has effectively
    propagated in the world information space. There are simply no objective comparisons and 100% spin instead.

    GarryB likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2744
    Points : 2746
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  LMFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:00 pm

    Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    PapaDragon likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9984
    Points : 10062
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:18 pm

    LMFS wrote:Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    Correct, it was a massive pain in the ass but they pressed on and are now back in the game

    Contrast that with stuff like Soviet lunar program where they dumped shitload of time and money only to give up right before the end zone just because they weren't first anymore


    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6925
    Points : 6915
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:26 pm

    Tu-160 was expensive even for USSR.

    It's a shame that they let Ukraine destroy plenty of them.
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 770
    Points : 800
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:50 pm

    Maybe they will use the NK-32 for the PAK-DP? The Mig-31 already has 70K lbs of thrust, so 110K on a larger airframe would make for a pretty potent interceptor capable of carrying all kinds of weapons.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 8272
    Points : 8417
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  kvs on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:48 pm

    LMFS wrote:Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    Would you really claim it was a hohum non-achievement if the "delay" was 8 years? As we see from the PAK-FA engines, it takes a long time
    to come out with new ones and reworking old ones to get 10% more fuel economy is not some nose picking exercise.

    If we were in 1999 nothing would be happening at all and only a Ukrainian style dissolution would be in progress. Russia should thank its
    lucky starts for Putin's "regime" and the various "delayed" military projects. BTW, military projects are not civilian projects so a lot of the
    yapping about delays is BS. Delays relative to what?

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2744
    Points : 2746
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  LMFS on Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:02 am

    kvs wrote:
    Would you really claim it was a hohum non-achievement if the "delay" was 8 years?   As we see from the PAK-FA engines, it takes a long time
    to come out with new ones and reworking old ones to get 10% more fuel economy is not some nose picking exercise.  

    If we were in 1999 nothing would be happening at all and only a Ukrainian style dissolution would be in progress.   Russia should thank its
    lucky starts for Putin's "regime" and the various "delayed" military projects.   BTW, military projects are not civilian projects so a lot of the
    yapping about delays is BS.   Delays relative to what?

    No, I totally agree this is a massive success, absolutely relevant and necessary. I was just clarifying that it was a very difficult endeavour. Putin himself had to pull their ears a couple of times, it demanded to process huge amounts of documentation, it has been claimed as a major achievement of the Russian aerospace industry which actually needed sharing resources of all the main companies to see it done. That is why I say the platform is "priceless", because it is just by major resolve and political will that such can be created.

    I personally find it very rich how "failures" and "successes" are so lightly attributed by us external observers, without understanding the efforts and difficulties that stand behind feats and platforms that only very few nations (or just one like for the Tu-160) can accomplish. The same goes about constant whining over status of naval industry etc etc. That Russia can even try and achieve what they are achieving, even after many attempts and frustration, has enormous merit IMHO. Nobody should expect the full restoring of the MIC after the 90's could be a cake walk...

    kvs likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27382
    Points : 27914
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:35 am

    Will the last 2 unfinished be completed or will they just go ahead with the M2 variant?

    As far as I know the two that could be completed were completed and the unfinished two have also been completed on the equipment built for new build Blackjacks and in the future new build PAK DAs.

    So the new planes they have gotten are not Tu-160M2s, they are essentially Tu-160s likely upgraded to the current M standard.

    Tu-160 was expensive even for USSR.

    It's a shame that they let Ukraine destroy plenty of them.

    It was made much more expensive by not having enough to make them an effective fleet.

    Regarding Ukraine... Russia didn't get much choice in the matter, but now they have production capacity in Russia that is a problem of the past.

    That is just Ukraine doing what they do sadly.

    Maybe they will use the NK-32 for the PAK-DP?

    AFAIK the PD-35 will be developed from the NK-32 and will be used in the PAK DA and in their new An-22 and An-124 replacements... the PAK DA needs a turbofan/ramjet type... the NK-32 would probably be too big and heavy for that job.

    The Mig-31 already has 70K lbs of thrust, so 110K on a larger airframe would make for a pretty potent interceptor capable of carrying all kinds of weapons.

    To operate at mach 4.2 it wont be using a turbofan or turbojet engine except for takeoff and landing... the rotational speed needed to operate at such flight speeds would destroy any conventional turbojet or turbofan engines... it would be like using rubber tires on a motor bike that can travel at mach 1.5... at that rotational speed the rubber would disintegrate causing the bike to crash... the turbine blades in a conventional jet engine can't operate above about mach 2.8 without damage.

    kvs likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot

    Posts : 46
    Points : 48
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  lancelot on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:03 am

    kvs wrote:Pretty acceptable?   Two years is miraculous.   Even China with all its massive resources couldn't pull something off like this.  
    As for the USA, it is hard to tell what engine innovation they actually have.   I do not think they evenhave an NK-32 class engine.  
    The GE F101 is basically half of the NK-32.   Given the rot in the US MIC, it would take more than 2 years for even just an
    improved version of GE F101 to be put into service.   And that is without losing the production infrastructure.
    ...

    You are correct. They do not. But the US does have civilian subsonic engines of that weight class (think 787 engines) and larger (think 777X engines).
    They can "simply" use that engine core and militarize it. It won't be as hard as designing a new engine but it won't be as difficult either.
    A Boeing 787 engine has between 28 and 34 ton thrust. A Boeing 777X engine has 48 ton thrust.

    For reference the PD-35 will have 35 ton thrust. So that puts it roughly in the Boeing 787/Airbus A330 class.
    The PD-35 (35 ton) is going to be a new engine based on a scaled up PD-14 (14 ton) core. Not based on NK-32 at all.
    There was talk about using the NK-32 on the CRAIC 929 instead of PD-35.
    But PD-35 should have better performance since it is more modern design.
    It will use a lot of new technologies for Russian engines including carbon composite cold fan blades and SiC (ceramic) hot section parts.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2211
    Points : 2211
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:09 am

    Isos wrote:Tu-160 was expensive even for USSR.

    It's a shame that they let Ukraine destroy plenty of them.

    They didn't let them do anything of the kind.  How could they stop them, short of paying the absurd ransom that Kiev was originally demanding?  The US was dripping its poisoned words into the Ukropi ear to get them to destroy the airframes, so Russia was probably lucky that she was able to salvage the aircraft that she did.

    Screw Ukraine and everything about that misbegotten decrepit shithole.  A pox on them till the end of days.

    flamming_python and miketheterrible like this post

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 5308
    Points : 5282
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:19 am

    Dunno why people wish for this or that in terms of equipment from Ukraine.

    Yes, it would have meant they could get more flying quicker. But then they were sitting idle for a long time and would have been issue for Russia in modernizing it and fixing what needs to be fixed.

    Instead, building whole new planes is beneficial for multitude of reasons:
    - re opens production which was lost initially. Meaning more jobs and specialists
    - gives opportunity to re-tool the plant
    - bigger order and thus more money to plant.
    - gives opportunity to seek improvements to the plane in the airframe/structure (more composites)
    - with newly trained specialists, means better opportunity to have a new design and properly working plane in future.

    GarryB likes this post


    Sponsored content

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:27 pm