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    Tu-160 "White Swan"

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:40 am

    Composite materials are not some super material with no problems of their own.

    Composites can have all sorts of problems including de-lamination and the fact that they suddenly snap without warning.

    Being able to flex in one direction or another might be useful, but it also might not... I would guess a centre box section holding the mechanism for the wing sweep is something that needs to be very strong and relatively light.

    If the original design in that regard works I don't see any reason to change it except to replace it with a more sophisticated fixed design that offers lift for takeoff and landing from reasonably sized runways but also low drag for high speed flight.

    The Tu-160 is a big plane that already had composite materials in its design so improving those and also adding more should be a good thing but remember these things need to operate in arctic bases, so don't ruin the design.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:Composite materials are not some super material with no problems of their own.

    Composites can have all sorts of problems including de-lamination and the fact that they suddenly snap without warning.

    Being able to flex in one direction or another might be useful, but it also might not... I would guess a centre box section holding the mechanism for the wing sweep is something that needs to be very strong and relatively light.

    If the original design in that regard works I don't see any reason to change it except to replace it with a more sophisticated fixed design that offers lift for takeoff and landing from reasonably sized runways but also low drag for high speed flight.

    The Tu-160 is a big plane that already had composite materials in its design so improving those and also adding more should be a good thing but remember these things need to operate in arctic bases, so don't ruin the design.

    The box section experiences load distortions more complicated than any wing or fin. It is the juncture of the body and the wings so has
    at least twice the number of bending and shear modes, and on top of that the full load of the wings and the body is riding on it. Showing off
    with composites in this critical part is asking for trouble.

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:Composite materials are not some super material with no problems of their own.

    Composites can have all sorts of problems including de-lamination and the fact that they suddenly snap without warning.

    Being able to flex in one direction or another might be useful, but it also might not... I would guess a centre box section holding the mechanism for the wing sweep is something that needs to be very strong and relatively light.

    If the original design in that regard works I don't see any reason to change it except to replace it with a more sophisticated fixed design that offers lift for takeoff and landing from reasonably sized runways but also low drag for high speed flight.

    The Tu-160 is a big plane that already had composite materials in its design so improving those and also adding more should be a good thing but remember these things need to operate in arctic bases, so don't ruin the design.

    This plane was designed 70's, every load bearing structure must flex, if not it will shatter. Cold is not a problem for composites are they have been used for decades on planes that take off in 40C and operate at -40C. If they had the wing box tooling available, I would agree, just build it. But since they don't and have to fully reconsider this structure, for 3 units a year composites, may offer an opportunity, or Al Li, or a combination of composites, alumunim and steel. Even steel has vastly improved in 40 years. Point is, replicating the old structure is just as, or maybe even more complex then just designing a new one from a clean sheet with the 40 years of additional knowledge they have.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:50 am

    Showing off
    with composites in this critical part is asking for trouble.

    My thoughts exactly.

    If they want to be super modern and ground breaking then creating a wing design that does not need to sweep to allow takeoffs from reasonable length runways, but also high dash speeds would be much more impressive...

    There haven't been that many changes in wing design... taken to the very core... the straight wing of WWII like the Yak-3 subsonic planes was standard, with sweeping it back of the wing necessary as speeds approached the speed of sound as with the MiG-15 and 17. The MiG-19 achieved supersonic speed with a straight swept wing but with an extreme sweep which increased takeoff and landing speeds so the delta wing and tail surfaces of the MiG-21 tried to mix reasonable runway length with supersonic speed with a shorter runway... then they went for exotic solutions like solid rocket boosters to shorten takeoff run and of course lift jets for STOL and VSTOL, and at the same time swing wings. The swing wings prevailed but were not the ideal solution, which came in the form of the MiG-29/Su-27 wing and lifting body shape to allow short take off and landing with supersonic speeds.

    In bombers they went from swing wing back to subsonic in the flying wing design...

    Cold is not a problem for composites are they have been used for decades on planes that take off in 40C and operate at -40C.

    Not all parts of an aircraft are subjected to outside temperatures in flight... the fact that the F-35 has problems operating in the cold in Japan suggests that operating in the Arctic at much much lower temperatures would be a serious problem...

    I understand the west is happy to build enormous air conditioned and heated hangars for their planes... the Germans keep their tanks in tents to prevent them getting too cold too, but that is just not practical in Russia. They might be building the hangars but there are times when the aircraft will spend time sitting outside for whatever reason so they have to be able to take it.

    If they had the wing box tooling available, I would agree, just build it. But since they don't and have to fully reconsider this structure, for 3 units a year composites, may offer an opportunity, or Al Li, or a combination of composites, alumunim and steel.

    They have built a new factory to make Tu-160s from scratch which includes a forge to make the titanium centre structure. I would expect a forge that size will be able to be used to wield other materials as well... the justification for building it was because they are going to build another 50 odd Tu-160s and such a forge could also be used in the construction of the PAK DA as well... and I suspect a new MiG-41 might benefit from one piece large section Ti structures being formed in one piece...

    Even steel has vastly improved in 40 years. Point is, replicating the old structure is just as, or maybe even more complex then just designing a new one from a clean sheet with the 40 years of additional knowledge they have.

    Obviously they will revise the design.... if they didn't it would have been in mass production 5 years ago, but they needed to digitise the design and then upgrade it... they did it the way they did everything else... upgrade existing bits as far as possible while working on a major upgrade... and in the back ground work on the from scratch replacement... ie T-72 upgrades, T-90AM, and T-14.

    Except with the White Swan you end up with Tu-160M, Tu-160M2, and PAK DA.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri May 08, 2020 7:48 pm

    going through my photos and found this. the Tu-134UBL a Tu-160 crew training version, with Tu-160 nose cone, although i always found that the nose cone of the tu-22 and tu-160 vermy similar, and due to the size of the Tu-134 to me it looks more like a variant of the Tu-22 or vice versa.

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 34 Dsc03816
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 09, 2020 8:58 am

    When they talked about upgrades for their big bombers they often mentioned unification of as much as possible.

    Part of that would include radar and engines, though that was only to replace the NK-25 in the Backfire with the NK-32 of the White Swan to improve commonality across the types... I don't remember reading about any plans for the NK-32 to be used on the Bear or anything....

    They did talk about the self defence avionics suite and radar and weapons being unified though...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:15 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 34 Ef02d420474a26f1592994292

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:35 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 34 Ef02d420474a26f1592994292

    Still the most beautiful angel of amageddon out there.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:39 pm

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 34 EcCY94CWsAAwbEr?format=jpg&name=large

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:50 am

    Links to a veritable treasure trove of Tu-160 info and photos, 551 pages in total Shocked (unfortunately in Russian but still their is plenty for mono-lingual types like me).

    http://www.aviationunion.ru/Files/Nom_2_TU_1.pdf
    http://www.aviationunion.ru/Files/Nom_2_TU_2.pdf

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:03 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Links to a veritable treasure trove of Tu-160 info and photos, 551 pages in total  Shocked  (unfortunately in Russian but still their is plenty for mono-lingual types like me).

    http://www.aviationunion.ru/Files/Nom_2_TU_1.pdf
    http://www.aviationunion.ru/Files/Nom_2_TU_2.pdf

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    That book is incredible indeed respekt

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