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    Tu-160 "White Swan"

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:36 am

    Another reason for the "White" in the name.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:P5zdHFtsjnA

    Takeoff at night in full AB...

    The colour reflects very efficient combustion. Not that Russia will get any credit for being ahead of western ubermenschen.
    Western military jets have a distinctly more reddish hue reflecting inferior combustion and not fuel type.

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    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:55 pm

    So Washington is dismissing the utility of the Tu-160 because it has not "stealth" capability. Meanwhile the B-2 is supposed
    to be super stealthy and will just fly into Russian air space without detection and drop gravity bombs on Russian targets.
    You can't make such retardation up.

    1) The Tu-160 does not need to fly over US territory to wreak its targets. It is a long-distance missile carrier and not a dumb
    bomber like the B-2. So we have apples to potatoes comparison already.

    2) Paint the Tu-160 with some RAM and it will be very close to the B-2. The Tu-160 cross section from the sides and front
    is very small and no worse than the B-2. From the bottom, the B-2 is a huge billboard so it cannot be stealthy by definition.
    The fixation on EM scatter from a few rounded contours is inane. Especially at long distances. Only arrogant yanquis
    think that Russians cannot do EM scatter (antenna type) calculations for their aircraft and come up with ways to minimize
    them without turning the aircraft into a flying coffin. BTW, if the F-117A was so great why has it not been replaced
    and just retired?

    3) Lavrov recently announced that Russian radars were tracking F-35s crossing from Iraq into Syria. Russia clearly has
    long distance "stealth" aircraft detection ability and the B-2 will never fly over Russian soil without being detected and
    blown out of the sky first.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:08 am

    The US is an empire so its thought processes are different and not rational.

    For a US planner stealth is critical because it is part of the machine keeping countries in line and part of the regime change machine that can be used to turn countries the way the US wants them to turn.... they don't want to bomb Russia or China because the blowback from such an action will obliterate the west completely... what they want is a plane they can use to hit Serbia or Syria or Iran with reduced chances of getting shot down... of course they are shitting themselves because Russian assistance to Syrian air defences and development of Iranian air defences and capabilities seems to have exceeded their expectations so a B-2 being able to fly over either Syria or Iran now seems to be a rather doubtful prospect, which is why the remaining B-2s and indeed B-1Bs seem to be on the verge of being replaced by brand new likely more expensive B-2s in the form of the B-21s, ...and the ancient B-52s made in the 1950s and 1960s... by 2050 they might get the prize of serving their country front line for 100 years, but I am not sure that is actually something to be proud of...

    The Russians on the other hand want an aircraft able to attack targets deep inside the US and with 5,500km range cruise missiles on board their Tu-160s and Tu-95s that should be exactly what they will be able to do.

    The US and Russian bombers are not hypersonic so by the time they get to their launch positions (for cruise missile launch or bomb release positions) the ICBMs and SLBMs and super long range cruise missiles in the case of ship launched missiles, most of the air defence capacity of each country will be severely degraded so their ability to shoot down stealth bombers and stealthy cruise missiles will be severely degraded... in fact one might argue that a B-52 carrying 5,000km range cruise missiles would be much better value for money than any B-21 they could possibly develop... but when an enemy is making a mistake.... don't interrupt them. Razz Razz Razz Laughing
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:12 pm

    The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

    MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

    "Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

    It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

    "The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
    aviation weapons," the ministry said.


    https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:44 pm

    dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

    MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

    "Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

    It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

    "The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
    aviation weapons," the ministry said.


    https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:17 pm

    Upgrading the avionics makes these aircraft totally modern. They do not need any mechanical redesign. Stealth is BS for
    a standoff missile carrier. And if any effort is made to make them "stealthy" then RAM will achieve 90% of optimum. The
    type of remote detection systems used on warheads and long range aviation will detect any object in the air unless it is
    tiny. Think of the size of a warhead. If they can be detected then so can any stealth air-craft. No stealth aircraft has
    perfect planar reflection geometry. Over-horizon radar photons will bounce off the largest cross sectional area since they
    impinge from the top and not from the sides.

    The opinions of moronic US generals are a laugh riot.

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    Post  mnztr on Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:53 pm

    Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec? I am impressed!! I wonder if they will go with more compsites for the new frames, for the wingbox for example (vs Ti). When the first new frame rolls out I will be really impressed!!



    dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

    MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

    "Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

    It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

    "The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
    aviation weapons," the ministry said.


    https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:56 pm

    Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec?
    No- if it was, the article would've mentioned it.
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:06 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec?
    No- if it was, the article would've mentioned it.

    Quote Garry at post 776,

    Tu-160M are modernised, Tu-160M2 are new build AFAIK.
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:15 am

    I am not so sure even this article from Janes is clear as mud. They mention an M, and M1 an M2 and then say the M1 was avail since 2014...none of it is clear.

    https://www.janes.com/article/94165/maiden-flight-for-upgraded-tu-160m-bomber



    JohninMK wrote:
    Quote Garry at post 776,

    Tu-160M are modernised, Tu-160M2 are new build AFAIK.
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:14 am

    https://southfront.org/wp-content/plugins/fwduvp/content/video.php?path=https%3A%2F%2Fsouthfront.org%2Fis-russia-overtaking-the-us-in-the-realm-of-strategic-bombers%2F&pid=1810

    The vid above seems to indicate the Russians have 10 TU-160 classic, 7 TU-160M1 and the M2 is the newest standard. All current planes will be upgraded to the M2 standard and the first new build M2 will be in 2023, with 10 units being part of the first order for new airframes.
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    Post  franco on Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:17 am

    mnztr wrote:https://southfront.org/wp-content/plugins/fwduvp/content/video.php?path=https%3A%2F%2Fsouthfront.org%2Fis-russia-overtaking-the-us-in-the-realm-of-strategic-bombers%2F&pid=1810

    The vid above seems to indicate the Russians have 10 TU-160 classic, 7 TU-160M1 and the M2 is the newest standard. All current planes will be upgraded to the M2 standard and the first new build M2 will be in 2023, with 10 units being part of the first order for new airframes.

    These 2 would be M1 standards IMO.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am

    It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

    The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

    The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

    Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

    I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...
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    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:56 pm

    From bmpd also:

    Comment by bmpd. We are talking about the transfer of the Russian Aerospace Forces after repairs and limited modernization at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov (KAZ) of the Tu-160 combat strategic bombers with the names "Ivan Yarygin" (serial number 07-04, previously had tail number "04 red ") and "Vasily Reshetnikov" (serial number 07-02, previously had board number" 02 red") built in 1992-1993.

    Both aircraft underwent a limited modernization according to a variant conditionally (and apparently incorrectly) designated in the media as “Tu-160M1”, and including, in particular, the installation of a new navigation system K-042K-1 and autopilot ABSU-200-1, while some old systems are being removed, such as the optical sighting bombing system. Also, presumably, a number of new weapons systems were integrated, including the ability to carry 12 new strategic X-101/X-102 cruise missiles deployed on two new 6A-9A829K3 revolving rotary launchers.

     The prototype of this upgrade option was the Tu-160 aircraft with the name “Valentin Bliznyuk” (serial number 02-02, tail number “19 red”), which was modernized at KAZ in 2006 (currently this aircraft is undergoing further modernization at KAZ according to the options Tu-160M).

      KAZ aircraft modernized "Andrey Tupolev" (serial number 06-05, tail number "18 red", was transferred back to the VKS in an updated configuration on December 19, 2014),
    "Vasily Senko" (serial number 06-02, tail number "11 red", was returned to service in January 2016) and
    "Nikolai Kuznetsov" (serial number 06-01, tail number "10 red", was returned to operation in November 2016).
    In addition, apparently in this configuration the aircraft “Vitaliy Kopylov” (serial number 08-03, tail number "10 red", transferred to the VKS in April 2008) and "Peter Deinekin" (serial number 08-04, began flight tests in December 2017) were completed.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4004055.html
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:46 pm

    Can they not build the center box out of composite today? If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff. I think when/if a new build emerges it will have some reengineering in it. I understand one of the big barriers and costs was creating a digital model from the old plans because it was not really possible to put into production the old way.


    GarryB wrote:It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

    The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

    The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

    Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

    I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...
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    Post  kvs on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 am

    mnztr wrote:Can they not build the center box out of composite today? If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff. I think when/if a new build emerges it will have some reengineering in it. I understand one of the big barriers and costs was creating a digital model from the old plans because it was not really possible to put into production the old way.


    GarryB wrote:It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

    The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

    The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

    Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

    I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...

    The new frames are made out of Aluminum. There is no hang-up in their production. Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
    back to the Soviet era.

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    Post  mnztr on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:59 am

    kvs wrote:

    The new frames are made out of Aluminum.  There is no hang-up in their production.   Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
    back to the Soviet era.


    If you can replace some of the TI with AlLi and composite, you can probably end up with a cheaper and more effetive plane.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:45 am

    Composites are amazing and can be used for all sorts of things, but the centre box section that holds the swing wing mechanics needs to be rigid and strong and not a failure point...

    Even if you could you wouldn't...

    A bit like taking a carbon fibre formula one car and wondering if you can make the engine out of carbon fibre too... they might end up making motors with high temperature ceramic parts but not carbon fibre...

    If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff.

    I am pretty sure they are doing everything they can to stretch the boundaries, but certain ideas are just not practical yet.

    The new frames are made out of Aluminum. There is no hang-up in their production. Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
    back to the Soviet era.

    Have not heard that. Even if they are making the new structures out of Al or Al alloys, they now have a forge that allows them to wield enormous sections together... and I am pretty sure they would not have done that just to finish two airframes only.

    If you can replace some of the TI with AlLi and composite, you can probably end up with a cheaper and more effetive plane.

    Doesn't really work like that.. AlLi is certainly lighter than steel but Li is not cheap and nor is Al... and while Ti is not cheap either it is very light and very strong.

    The BMD series was made from Al because it was light and improved structural integrity.

    What I mean is that to get the BMD to the same weight with steel it would be too thin to be effective as armour. A 9mm thick sheet of steel might weigh the same as a 25mm thick sheet of Al, but the Al is structurally stronger if it is 25mm thick than the same structure shape made of thinner sheets of steel.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:09 am

    Composites are incredibly strong, there is really no limit to how rigid they can be.Ti is actually not the most rigid metal, although its properties are very desirable. AlLi is more expensive then AL but not even close to Ti. Here is an example of a composite wing box:

    http://www.jeccomposites.com/knowledge/international-composites-news/single-piece-composite-centre-wing-box-aircraft

    If you look at the surplus available in the TU-160, if the new airframe weighs even 10T more, who cares!! The plane has an incredible payload/range etc. In either case I hope they will tell us about some of the change and any of the compromises they make to bring production back on line.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:57 pm

    mnztr wrote: In either case I hope they will tell us about some of the change and any of the compromises they make to bring production back on line.
    Probably regarded as a state secret.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:22 pm

    Composites are strong but not 1:1 replacements for metal. Even the most recent ones are still too brittle. The use of composites in
    wings proves nothing. Wing dimensions allow for more flex from even brittle materials. Compact objects requiring shear deformation
    and other load related distortion may not do so well.

    The vaunted weight savings with composites only apply if they are used conservatively. A multi-layer composite structure that
    has the right range of load bearing and shear resistance characteristics may be much heavier than simplistic atomic weight
    comparisons would imply. Seems to me like the center box section would be very heavy if made out of composites. So
    why not use Aluminum?

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    Post  mnztr on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:59 pm

    With composites you can tailor the flex with material choices, driection of layers etc. Its really quite amazing what options you have. Have you seen the 787 wing and how much it flexes? Not possible with Al. Its also quite possible to have a fabricated combined structure. The A350 center wingbox is 40% composite and the rest aluminum and steel. So yes it has its places. Russia is making a big push with composites for the MS-21 air liner due to US sanctions. The US stopped them from doing business with Hexcel and they are now testing Russian composites. Its possible they have decided this is strategic for ..well everything and with a limited run of 3 planes/year for TU-160, composites are ideal due to low production rate. Since they have to restart the supply chain anyway, and since they are building 50 AND they have 30 years of experience operating it, why not give it a full rethink.

    kvs wrote:Composites are strong but not 1:1 replacements for metal.  Even the most recent ones are still too brittle.   The use of composites in
    wings proves nothing.   Wing dimensions allow for more flex from even brittle materials.   Compact objects requiring shear deformation
    and other load related distortion may not do so well.  

    The vaunted weight savings with composites only apply if they are used conservatively.   A multi-layer composite structure that
    has the right range of load bearing and shear resistance characteristics may be much heavier than simplistic atomic weight
    comparisons would imply.   Seems to me like the center box section would be very heavy if made out of composites.  So
    why not use Aluminum?

     
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:12 am

    It's important to note that metals (tempered steel especially) function basically as springs. They are good at absorbing energy.

    If a metal takes enough force, it will start to deform, but it will keep its structural integrity up to a certain point past that

    If a ceramic or whatever material takes enough force, it will simply crack and break
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    Post  mnztr on Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:09 am

    composites are not ceramic, although I suppose ceramic can be part of them. There is a whole range of fibers that are woven into the layers of composites and this is constantly evolving. The resins and process all play a big part in the final properties of the material.

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