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    US-Iran standoff 2019- #2

    crod
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    Post  crod Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:57 pm

    par far wrote:

    Go on YouTube and see how people live in Iran and they have more freedom than people in Saudi Arabia and other Saudi vassals. They probably have as much freedom as people in the "beacon of hope(NOT) west.

    Do you really think an army of gays, lesbians, trans genders, blacks that think they should be given everything, white population that is being embarrassed because of their past(is the US army) can beat Iran, Russia or China?

    Please enlighten me on how you have drawn that conclusion regarding freedoms. lol!

    The first sentence, last para - I’m not going to even comment on. Good grief.


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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:25 am

    The problem for Iran unfortunately is that Biden won’t undo them.

    America fucked them over with the Shah... they should be thanking the US for cutting all ties with the west... Iran needs to look elsewhere for trade partners and growth and development...

    Ironically if the US had any brains they would offer free education to Iranian students and get them all westernised and then send them back and have them demand Iran become more like the west... they would increase ties and improve the situation in the country for most of the people...

    If the things Putin has done to make Russia independent had been done by the west being generous and helping its new ally and partner like they were promising in the 1980s... give up communism and be welcomed into the international community and not be isolated and attacked all the time they said... if they had treated Russia like they treated West Germany and Japan after WWII, Russia would be a good ally for the west and would likely cooperate more often than not, but there was no new bad guy they needed to help Russia to fight... West Germany and Japan were rebuilt to fight the Soviets... China got investment and their crimes were ignored because they were being used against the Soviet Union which had more nuclear missiles and was seen as a much bigger threat.

    Did you get the irony?

    They can team up with Stalin for WWII and they can team up with communist China to fight communist Soviet Union... makes you wonder why they didn't take the easier path and say the Chinese were the commie enemies and befriend the Soviet Union... beat the bigger threat by making them an ally in another conflict with someone else.

    Right now they could say... Russia is a democracy and China is close enough... why don't we make friends with them... not demand they follow our rules... and together we can fight poverty and terrorism and other important things... including domestic problems.

    With climate change being able to live in extreme weather conditions is going to start to become more important, renewable green nuclear power technology would be an excellent way of dealing with greenhouse gas emissions... Russia is really the only country taking fuel waste from other countries and extracting useful materials from it and then recycling it into nuclear fuel rods again, whereas in the west that shit is buried for 10,000 years in old disused coal mines and forgotten.

    Abuse of Russia and China by the west is OK because they are big enough to be able to continue along their own path... Iran needs to decide its own path and start making friends that didn't go to British or US private schools. Perhaps non western oriented nations need to create their own league of nations... a league of non western nations with agreements on trade and interactions with rules of non interference and friendship between members and support against external powers...
    crod
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    Post  crod Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:05 pm

    All that being said and done...the fact is that America can make it as hard as it likes for Iran to do business and is doing so - the sanctions are hurting the country and there’s simply no getting away from that - irrespective of how unpalatable and or unjust it may be.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:16 pm

    Yes and no.

    While it hurt Iran's access to technologies, it has barely touched the every day stuff. Even their banking and stock market is rather stable due to being cut off from the world trading.

    They are an autarky of sort and most goods come from within the country.

    Mismanagement due to the religious banking system has caused problems in the amount of lost finances and poor quality compared to anything else.

    Yes, they could be richer from being open to world market. But no country should be reliant on trade.
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:16 pm

    Iran clearly has the critical mass to develop its own technology and the production to go together with it. America made a terminal
    mistake, as with Russia, in assuming it would fall over like a rotten facade. This fetish to fantasize that various target countries are
    pushovers is congenital in western leaders.

    crod
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    Post  crod Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:03 pm

    kvs wrote:Iran clearly has the critical mass to develop its own technology and the production to go together with it.   America made a terminal
    mistake, as with Russia, in assuming it would fall over like a rotten facade.   This fetish to fantasize that various target countries are
    pushovers is congenital in western leaders.


    Would be very pleasing if this eventuates - not only a great outcome for Iranians but a clear demonstration to other nations on how to beat the bully boys.

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    par far


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    Post  par far Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:51 pm

    nomadski wrote:@ parfar

    "......... There liberals in the Iran but it is no where near the level in the west........"

    How do we know, how many liberals are there in power ?  They all wear beards and go to Mecca !


    "...... When they killed the Iranian General, Iran responded and they responded in a smart way........ "

    I heard today the foreign ministry spokesman, say that  all those who accuse Iran of giving advance warning to Americans, before attack , are Zionist  conspirators !  If answer was smart , no further attacks would happen. But they did.  And they covered up these attacks also. They are good  telling lies to the people.

    "........ Go on YouTube and see how people live in Iran......."

    I know how most people live . No thanks to sanctions and  failed political system , brought about by right wing  reaction, the Bazzar class and allied Mullahs.

    "........ have more freedom than people in Saudi Arabia and other Saudi vassals.......... "

    Why compare Iran to Saudi?  Or  Somalia ?  Why not compare to Sweden?   There are no  real political freedoms . The socialists and Democrats have no voice. No vote. They were killed or exiled. Like yours truly.  Only right wing  groups or " parties ", have power.

    ".... Do you really think an army of gays, lesbians, trans genders, blacks that think they should be given everything, white population that is being embarrassed because of their past(is the US army) can beat Iran, Russia or China?..... "

    They don't need to beat Iran. Iranians are making  a good job of it themselves. The majority of solutions are within Iran. By improving the political process. But Iranians are primarily concerned about who is in white House. Biden or Trump. What is price of Dollar. We do not have a national currency.

    No, short of a bloody revolution,  that usually brings about turmoil, Iran needs radical change. A peaceful Democratic revolution. A Democratic Republic. With proportional class representation. Freedom of political ideology. Including socialism and capitalism and Islamism ( social reformism) or liberalism.


    "......How do we know, how many liberals are there in power ? They all wear beards and go to Mecca !....."


    Liberals come in all shapes and sizes. Mecca is controlled by liberals and Zionists.



    ".......I heard today the foreign ministry spokesman, say that all those who accuse Iran of giving advance warning to Americans, before attack , are Zionist conspirators ! If answer was smart , no further attacks would happen. But they did. And they covered up these attacks also. They are good telling lies to the people....."


    All government's lie, there was advance warning to the US.



    ".......I know how most people live . No thanks to sanctions and  failed political system , brought about by right wing  reaction, the Bazzar class and allied Mullahs......"


    The political system maybe not be perfect but it is no worse than the failed one run by the Zionists, corrupt greedy corporations in the US


    ".......Why compare Iran to Saudi?  Or  Somalia ?  Why not compare to Sweden?   There are no  real political freedoms . The socialists and Democrats have no voice. No vote. They were killed or exiled. Like yours truly.  Only right wing  groups or " parties ", have power......"


    The reason I compared it to Saudi Arabia is because they are both Muslim majority countries but we can compare it to Sweden(which will become a Muslim Majority country anyways.) In Sweden, people don't have any voice to how much immigrants they take in, if they voice complain about all the rapes and fraud being committed by the immigrants they are labeled racists and right wing.



    ".......They don't need to beat Iran. Iranians are making  a good job of it themselves. The majority of solutions are within Iran. By improving the political process. But Iranians are primarily concerned about who is in white House. Biden or Trump. What is price of Dollar. We do not have a national currency......"


    Iran has done good, even after being under sanctions for 30+ years, they have a robust defense industry that can make most of what they need themselves, they have a good education system, they have with stood many threats of invasion and sabotage. And the world is becoming multi polar and Iran will have a chance to trade with Russia, China and other countries. Iranians have learned their lesson not to trust any US Puppet in Charge.




    ".......No, short of a bloody revolution,  that usually brings about turmoil, Iran needs radical change. A peaceful Democratic revolution. A Democratic Republic. With proportional class representation. Freedom of political ideology. Including socialism and capitalism and Islamism ( social reformism) or liberalism......"


    We all know how western democracy, socialism, capitalism and liberalism work, Iran does not need that.
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    Post  par far Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:03 pm

    crod wrote:
    par far wrote:

    Go on YouTube and see how people live in Iran and they have more freedom than people in Saudi Arabia and other Saudi vassals. They probably have as much freedom as people in the "beacon of hope(NOT) west.

    Do you really think an army of gays, lesbians, trans genders, blacks that think they should be given everything, white population that is being embarrassed because of their past(is the US army) can beat Iran, Russia or China?

    Please enlighten me on how you have drawn that conclusion regarding freedoms.  lol!

    The first sentence, last para - I’m not going to even comment on. Good grief.





    It is not every hard to come to the conclusion, look at the US right now, anyone who is a Trump supporter is beaten, harassed and threatened. In the west if you don't like multiracialism, if you don't like your country being flooded with immigrant's and if you don't agree with leftist agenda, you are labeled a racist and a right wing.

    If you are stupid enough to believe people that people in Saudi Arabia have more freedom than Iran, than I don't know what to tell you. And here is how "freedom and free elections in west" are done:



    For the last  paragraph read this article:

    "No white American will fight for a government that has demonized him, torn down his statues,  and erased his people’s history.  An army of feminists, transgendered, Hispanic immigrants, disaffected blacks, and displaced Muslims will not fare well against Russian, Chinese, and Iranian forces.  Such a collection is not imbued with pride of country, a requirement for a fighting force."


    https://thesaker.is/the-empire-has-collapsed/
    crod
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    Post  crod Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:32 pm

    Eh it’s really a nonsensical point to be arguing with me about freedoms in either of those countries when both apply strict religious laws on its people. Has Iran more freedoms, yes but only just when compared to the western nations you so clearly detest. Which is fine, I couldn’t care less how you wish to be controlled by one system or another.

    I’m not responding to the utter rubbish pertaining to the remainder of your post. However I note, rather ironically, your use of the term stupid.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:56 pm

    Sooo...., anyone know what's on Iran's Christmas list, since the arms embargo is gone.

    is it Pantsir, Migs, Iskander, S-400s, Buk, whats on it?
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    Post  Isos Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:33 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Sooo...., anyone know what's on Iran's Christmas list, since the arms embargo is gone.

    is it Pantsir, Migs, Iskander, S-400s, Buk, whats on it?

    S-400 and su-30SM for sure.  

    Iskander is not needed since they have their own missiles.

    Pantsir I doubt. They operate Tor M1 so they could buy another 8 Tor m2 to protect their S-400.

    Maybe some Steregoushchy corvette with UKSK.

    Update their 3 kilo sub or buy another 3 new ones. Or maybe they will be the first to buy the small P-750 sub for the shallow waters of the gulf.
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    Post  par far Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:39 pm

    crod wrote:Eh it’s really a nonsensical point to be arguing with me about freedoms in either of those countries when both apply strict religious laws on its people. Has Iran more freedoms, yes but only just when compared to the western nations you so clearly detest. Which is fine, I couldn’t care less how you wish to be controlled by one system or another.

    I’m not responding to the utter rubbish pertaining to the remainder of your post. However I note, rather ironically, your use of the term stupid.


    We will agree to disagree crod, I apologize if I said anything offensive.
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    Post  par far Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:43 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Sooo...., anyone know what's on Iran's Christmas list, since the arms embargo is gone.

    is it Pantsir, Migs, Iskander, S-400s, Buk, whats on it?


    I think fighter jets and after the shooting down of the Ukrainian civilian plane debacle, advanced air defenses. The Navy could use some modern ships and submarines.

    But I don't think that Iran will be getting those because no country is going to sell them weapons because they are to piss off US and more importantly Israel.
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    Post  crod Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:13 am

    par far wrote:
    crod wrote:Eh it’s really a nonsensical point to be arguing with me about freedoms in either of those countries when both apply strict religious laws on its people. Has Iran more freedoms, yes but only just when compared to the western nations you so clearly detest. Which is fine, I couldn’t care less how you wish to be controlled by one system or another.

    I’m not responding to the utter rubbish pertaining to the remainder of your post. However I note, rather ironically, your use of the term stupid.


    We will agree to disagree crod, I apologize if I said anything offensive.

    no offense taken Smile
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    Post  crod Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:16 am

    par far wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Sooo...., anyone know what's on Iran's Christmas list, since the arms embargo is gone.

    is it Pantsir, Migs, Iskander, S-400s, Buk, whats on it?


    I think fighter jets and after the shooting down of the Ukrainian civilian plane debacle, advanced air defenses. The Navy could use some modern ships and submarines.

    But I don't think that Iran will be getting those because no country is going to sell them weapons because they are to piss off US and more importantly Israel.

    I too believe for that very reason outlined above, Iran will be getting bugger all from Russia and China.

    Also, where will they get the vast sums of money to pay for all this equipment? the country is on its knees already.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:25 am

    crod wrote:I too believe for that very reason outlined above, Iran will be getting bugger all from Russia and China.

    Also, where will they get the vast sums of money to pay for all this equipment? the country is on its knees already.

    Last i checked, China gets quite a bit of oil from Iran and Russia isn't remotely interested in allowing America to turn Iran into the next great Caliphate.

    So as far as i can see, Iran has room to maneuver here.

    There's also keeping Turkish ambitions in check.
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    Post  par far Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:42 am

    crod wrote:
    par far wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Sooo...., anyone know what's on Iran's Christmas list, since the arms embargo is gone.

    is it Pantsir, Migs, Iskander, S-400s, Buk, whats on it?


    I think fighter jets and after the shooting down of the Ukrainian civilian plane debacle, advanced air defenses. The Navy could use some modern ships and submarines.

    But I don't think that Iran will be getting those because no country is going to sell them weapons because they are to piss off US and more importantly Israel.

    I too believe for that very reason outlined above, Iran will be getting bugger all from Russia and China.

    Also, where will they get the vast sums of money to pay for all this equipment? the country is on its knees already.

    I don't think for a second that Iran is on its knees, if Iran was on its knees, then they would have been invaded.

    There was a reason that Qatar went to bat for Iran, it is because Iran has lots of oil, gas and other resources, Iran also has a educated population.

    Iran will get air defense systems but it may not get anything else but that should be okay because Iran does not need a whole lot of fighter jets, submarines, just a few. Iran is very good at reverse engineering, so Iran may only need a few of the stuff they need.

    The western countries are slowly falling apart, Iran just needs to be patient. Iran has done a good job in Iraq, with the help of Russia, they have the upper hand in Syria. In Yemen, Iran has drained the Gulf states(especially Saudi Arabia).

    With dementia Biden and the witch Kamala coming to power, they will push for more 3rd world refugees into Europe, so Europe is done. The Gulf states are slowly getting drained, the US is in turmoil, Iran only has to worry about Israel(there also protests).

    So I don't think Iran is on its knees, Iran just has to be patient.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:53 pm

    The US and west have cut off all customers for oil sales but Iran could trade oil for weapons to China and Russia, but Iran has a history of not buying major weapon systems from anybody else... they have a much longer history of working against Russia than working with her and seem to have more faith in the west than anything else... when money is freed up they buy Boeings for goodness sake...

    There are lots of air defence components they could buy from Russia and probably help with integrating their air defence into a unified IADS would make their existing air defence system much more capable and effective and harder to deal with too.

    I mean look at Syria... it went from a sieve that Israel and the US and Turkey could fly through without consequence, to an area of airspace Israeli F-35s refuse to enter and launch stand off missile attacks from neighbouring countries airspace...

    Think how even more powerful it would be if they had permission to shoot down enemy aircraft outside their airspace if they needed to?
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    Post  par far Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:The US and west have cut off all customers for oil sales but Iran could trade oil for weapons to China and Russia, but Iran has a history of not buying major weapon systems from anybody else... they have a much longer history of working against Russia than working with her and seem to have more faith in the west than anything else... when money is freed up they buy Boeings for goodness sake...

    There are lots of air defence components they could buy from Russia and probably help with integrating their air defence into a unified IADS would make their existing air defence system much more capable and effective and harder to deal with too.

    I mean look at Syria... it went from a sieve that Israel and the US and Turkey could fly through without consequence, to an area of airspace Israeli F-35s refuse to enter and launch stand off missile attacks from neighbouring countries airspace...

    Think how even more powerful it would be if they had permission to shoot down enemy aircraft outside their airspace if they needed to?

    I don't think that Iran has more trust in the west, the nuclear deal was signed because Russia and China both said they were trading with, Iran regardless of sanctions. And Omaba hated Israel, so a deal was not very hard to make.

    It was because of Russia and China that Iran got this deal in the first place.

    There were more than likely stipulations that Iran had to buy from US companies, Omaba had to sell the deal in the US, where Jews run everything. So Iran would have to buy from Boeing.

    Iran could not buy any air defence systems for the last 5 years because of arms embargo but now that has expired, Iran is free to get whatever they want.

    I think the Russia and China are waiting on what Biden does but it will be the same policies.
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    Post  nomadski Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:09 pm

    Agree that policy of US will probably not change towards Iran ,  in the short to medium term. But even if it does ,  Iran's  problems will not be over. And not just because some other power or country may or may not  start an economic or even hot war. But because of Iran's  disturbed and weak political and economic system.

    All because , the Iranian revolution gave sole power to a minority group or class. The religiously orientated and the wealthy propertied  classes. We see the nagative influence of the Bazzari class  and allied religious elite, in Iranian society.

    Of course Islam has played a largely anti- democratic and anti - revolutionary role in the world. By fighting progressive democratic and socialist movements. From North Africa to South Asia. The only exceptions are to a lesser extent the Shia movements in Lebanon and perhaps Yemen and Iraq. But in Iran, the Shia faith has not led to a Democratic Republic.

    The reactionary Bazzar culture pervades all aspects of life in Iran .  And not only has the support of the clergy, but this corrupt Bazzar capitalist culture pervades all sections of society. I was reading the ISNA, site. And surprisingly noticed an entire section devoted to the Bazzar ! Not work or finding work. But sitting on your ass and exploiting others in the Bazzar.

    Of course the right wing makes gods of prophets and makes prophets out of  Imams. Because Islam does not have the political modern discourse to address modern problems. If we collected all the prophets and saints, they could not come up with a single paragraph, comparable to modern economic or political theory.  

    And now pompeo is telling the truth. The " regime" is killing it's own people. How sad that the enemy does not need to lie. Tell me who killed the 400 demonstrators?  Oh.... Government troops?   But they said themselves that a high percentage killed by private non- standard weapons. Tell me in Iran, who can afford to buy a gun?  Is it the poor workers or employees?  Who can not afford to buy eggs. Or is it the wealthy, who go on hunting trips in the countryside?  Who live in the countryside. Who have land.

    Why does the police, not publish the list or type of guns that were used illegally  to kill the domonstrators?  They can do this by studying  the rounds. Surely they can do this. Then we know who might own them. What class or group owns these guns.

    The solution is not charity. Religious charity will not replace social justice. Is not progressive or revolutionary. The problems are internal. And so are the solutions. But it does not rest on the present collection of  right wing Bazzar or Liberal groups or parties and allied clergy, with peculiar brand of capitalist Islam . The Iranian society is corrupt and has been corrupted by bourgeoisie Bazzar culture. We need to replace this, with socialist progressive and democratic, work and workers culture.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie#:~:text=In%20Marxist%20philosophy%2C%20the%20bourgeoisie,their%20economic%20supremacy%20in%20society.
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    Post  crod Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:34 pm

    Russia and China support is crucial here but how far russia will go i am not sure - they prefer israel and weapon sales more than iran.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:04 am

    Russia doesn't sell weapons to Israel, there is more potential for joint ventures and weapons sales to Iran than to Irans enemies in the region... Saudi Arabia talks about big contracts but the never seem to make it to ink...
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    Post  crod Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:23 pm

    Sorry, to clarify - weapon sales to ME countries; support to isreal. The latter I don’t get but assume it must have some to do with the amount of Russian Jews. Can say if true or not but it would appear they listen to bibi and others regarding what they sell to other nations???
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:45 pm

    GarryB wrote: Saudi Arabia talks about big contracts but the never seem to make it to ink...

    Usually to boost a US politician but then the reality of no longer having more money than they needed strikes home.

    All the Gulf States have one eye on the US's ability to regime change them and the other watching out over the Gulf at Iran, the only real military power in the region.

    Qatar is the interesting one as it shares the source of its wealth, the Pars gas field, with Iran. A gas pipeline up into the EU would be of value to both of them.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:31 am

    Usually to boost a US politician but then the reality of no longer having more money than they needed strikes home.

    I suspect they have found they can literally get away with a brutal murder just by negotiating for 400 billion dollars worth of defence contracts... they don't even need to sign anything... just being in talks is enough to get favoured nation status and therefore total political protection from the US and UK... when deadlines arrive make up some reason not to buy...

    Can say if true or not but it would appear they listen to bibi and others regarding what they sell to other nations???

    I suspect the US and Israel have made all sorts of promises to stop certain sales... but I suspect their promises are running thin by now... I don't think Putin supports Israel, but equally I don't think he wishes them dead... they have nukes and the ear... and balls of America cupped in their hands it seems.


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