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    French minority in Russia?

    Aristide
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    French minority in Russia? Empty French minority in Russia?

    Post  Aristide on Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:31 am

    I have a question, historicly France and Russia had some exchange. I know uring czar rule many artists, military staff ect from France was in Russia mostly in St Petersburg area.

    Are there people who came from those? Like russians with french family names?
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:42 pm

    Oh yeah, but they long ago assimilated into Russian masses and adopted Russian names. I don't recall ever meeting someone with a French surname, although I have met those with German ones.

    You wouldn't call it a disapora because these individuals were scattered all over the place, but in no place did they have a critical mass to form some kind of lasting community. What's more they were involved with the upper classes, and many those of French or partial French descent would have been among the nobility that either fled the country during the revolution, or intermarried with the commoners during the Soviet period. Among those nobles many had French names and surnames.

    Come to think of it I know one person who's descended from French or German nobility and has a French surname; his father was a nobleman. He emigrated to Germany and was granted an estate there after his title of Prince (or some such) was recognized by the German government. But he himself grew up in Soviet Moldova, was a champion weightlifter, completely Russian-speaking person in mentality, he doesn't exactly fit in with the German aristocracy there.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:41 am

    Since the 1700's the "Russian nobility" was to a significant degree German not French.

    That is because during the first half of the 18th century the ethnic Germans virtually seized the rule in Russia. Essentially Czar Peter the Great handed over to the Germans (and to lesser degree also to other Western Europeans) control of the Russian government, and eventually they seized it practically entirely during some sort of palace coup during the 18th century, during the course of which they got rid of the genuine Russian nobility, and a Russian Prince Dolgorukiy was literally tortured to death by them. Then we got Catherine the Great, and that shit, the German/Western domination lasted until 1917. The genuine Russian nobility continued to exist, and had some limited voice in the Russian government, but they had to share the power with the Germans in a very unequal way, with the Germans becoming essentially a bunch of parasites.

    Akadiemik Lomonosov was asked once by Catherine the Great how should she reward him for his scientific work and he replied that: "may I be included as a German?"


    Can you give us the name of the "prince" from Moldova?

    I think it should be possible to establish if he is for real.




    What Happened to the Napoleonic POWs in Russia (Not All of Them Were French)?

    Upon arriving at the designated province, prisoners were distributed among cities and towns, where they were quartered with private citizens and were closely monitored by local police. In July 1813, rank-and-file prisoners were allowed to become Russian subjects by taking an oath of loyalty to the Russian sovereign but were restricted in the areas they could settle (i.e., they could not settle in Poland, Finland, or in St Petersburg or Moscow). wrote:


    https://www.cairn.info/revue-napoleonica-la-revue-2014-3-page-35.htm#



    How Some of Napoleon's Soldiers Became Cossacks

    https://nicholaskotar.com/2017/06/28/napoleons-soldiers-became-cossacks/


    Aristide
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    French minority in Russia? Empty Re: French minority in Russia?

    Post  Aristide on Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Since the 1700's the "Russian nobility" was to a significant degree German not French.

    That is because during the first half of the 18th century the ethnic Germans virtually seized the rule in Russia. Essentially Czar Peter the Great handed over to the Germans (and to lesser degree also to other Western Europeans) control of the Russian government, and eventually they seized it practically entirely during some sort of palace coup during the 18th century, during the course of which they got rid of the genuine Russian nobility, and a Russian Prince Dolgorukiy was literally tortured to death by them. Then we got Catherine the Great, and that shit, the German/Western domination lasted until 1917. The genuine Russian nobility continued to exist, and had some limited voice in the Russian government, but they had to share the power with the Germans in a very unequal way, with the Germans becoming essentially a bunch of parasites.

    Akadiemik Lomonosov was asked once by Catherine the Great how should she reward him for his scientific work and he replied that: "may I be included as a German?"


    Can you give us the name of the "prince" from Moldova?

    I think it should be possible to establish if he is for real.




    What Happened to the Napoleonic POWs in Russia (Not All of Them Were French)?




    https://www.cairn.info/revue-napoleonica-la-revue-2014-3-page-35.htm#



    How Some of Napoleon's Soldiers Became Cossacks

    https://nicholaskotar.com/2017/06/28/napoleons-soldiers-became-cossacks/



    The language at the russian court was french.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:44 am



    You are making a mute point.


    During the 18th century French was the court language in Prussia. King Frederick the Great of Prussia wrote either exclusively or mostly in French. It was a rather strange habit for him, since he was the only more notable German ruler at that time who did not ape Versailles.


    Also, in case you are not aware of this, during much of the 17th century, at least to a limited degree, Polish was the language of the Russian court.

    How things change.



    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:09 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:

    You are making a mute point.


    During the 18th century French was the court language in Prussia. King Frederick the Great of Prussia wrote either exclusively or mostly in French. It was a rather strange habit for him, since he was the only more notable German ruler at that time who did not ape Versailles.


    Also, in case you are not aware of this, during much of the 17th century, at least to a limited degree, Polish was the language of the Russian court.

    How things change.




    What i mean is how much the russians orientated towards France. When i visited St Petersburg it looked like France.

    I assume that alot of french military staff, diplomats ect was stationed there in the past and i assume some stayed.

    On the other side some famous french also came from Russia and moved to France.

    From what i know is that after the russian revolution those of the elite that could flee, escaped mostly to France. Like Natalia Paley.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:28 pm





    What I do not get is why the Russian government classified the ethnic Poles as "traitors"?

    All the Poles who invaded Russia with Napoleon came from the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, or from the parts of Poland that were previously under Austrian and Prussian rule. They were never under Russian rule. Then, why classify them as "traitors"?


    https://www.cairn.info/revue-napoleonica-la-revue-2014-3-page-35.htm#


    If they are "Slavic traitors" then keep in mind that the practically German-ruled Russia ganged up on Poland together with two German states only decades earlier.


    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:32 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:



    What I do not get is why the Russian government classified the ethnic Poles as "traitors"?

    All the Poles who invaded Russia with Napoleon came from the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, or from the parts of Poland that were previously under Austrian and Prussian rule. They were never under Russian rule. Then, why classify them as "traitors"?


    https://www.cairn.info/revue-napoleonica-la-revue-2014-3-page-35.htm#


    If they are "Slavic traitors" then keep in mind that the practically German-ruled Russia ganged up on Poland together with two German states only decades earlier.



    Do you have a source for the traitor claim?
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:06 pm



    The source is in the link I already provided above twice in this thread.


    There were also ethnic Poles serving in the armies of Austria and Prussia during the 1812 invasion of Russia, but the only officially Polish troops were those from the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, which at that time was the only Polish state in existence. None of these "Austrian" and "Prussian" ethnic Poles, in addition to these from the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, were ever Russian subjects.

    Arguably a case can be made for them being "Slavic traitors", but as I already wrote here above, the practically German-ruled Russia together with two German states ganged up on Poland back in 1772 and 1793-1795.


    Perhaps some ethnic Poles from the Belarus and Lithuania were also recruited, and it was these who were the traitors? By the way, these "ethnic Poles" from Belarus and Lithuania for the most part are probably not really of genuine ethnic Polish origin to begin with.

    I think the article should be more specific with regard to that matter.


    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:52 pm




    Poles fought for Napoleon not only in Russia:





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFLOJZoln38




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