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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

    Backman
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    Post  Backman on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:13 am

    Apparently Algeria has now officially purchased 14 su 57's + for 2 billion dollars. It was just a coincidence that i mentioned it yesterday

    https://twitter.com/brokly990/status/1330075122397540354?s=20

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:45 am

    That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.
    zepia
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    Post  zepia on Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:53 am

    Backman wrote:Apparently Algeria has now officially purchased 14 su 57's + for 2 billion dollars. It was just a coincidence that i mentioned it yesterday

    https://twitter.com/brokly990/status/1330075122397540354?s=20

    Good to hear that, although $143m per plane is quite high.
    I guess the deal does include other things like weapons, parts or technology transfer.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman on Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 am

    Isos wrote:That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.

    Yeah we have no idea what is included in this price. Nothing is official yet. But why should the su 57 be cheap ? It's not going to be particularly cheap. The best air superiority fighter in production isn't going to be cheap.

    There is a big difference between export contract price and allied production cost. All of these numbers out there about the F-35 are just production cost. Not actual export price.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:10 am

    I know it will be an expensive aircraft. Indian su-30MKI cost around 70 million.

    But 150 million is way too expensive.

    IMO it will be a contract for also su-34 which should be around 30-40 million. If the su-57 is 100 million then it will be 14 su-57 and 14 su-34 for 2 billion and other contract for weapons.
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    Post  lyle6 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:52 pm

    The Chinese bought two dozen Su-35S jets for $ 2.5 billion.

    I have to ask: what are you smoking that you'd think the Su-57 is going to ever come close to this price point?
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    Post  Scorpius on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    “None of the aircraft has ever been able to ensure that at cruising supersonic speeds (1600 kilometers per hour) it was possible to fly in non-afterburner mode. Nobody in the world has achieved this yet - neither France, nor England, nor Rolls-Royce, nor Pratt & Whitney - nobody, "Tolboyev stressed.

    The problem is that another sentence is missing here:
    "No aircraft has ever managed to achieve that at cruising supersonic speeds (1,600 kilometers per hour) it was possible to fly in the afterburner mode. Afterburner mode is associated with a huge waste of fuel, and the Su-57 can develop a cruising speed "at nominal". No one in the world has achieved this yet — neither France, nor England, nor Rolls-Royce nor Pratt & Whitney — no one," Tolboev stressed.
    Regardless of whether Tolboev is right or wrong, it is always better to give a full quote from the original source. This helps to avoid significant data distortion.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:28 pm

    lyle6 wrote:The Chinese bought two dozen Su-35S jets for $ 2.5 billion.

    I have to ask: what are you smoking that you'd think the Su-57 is going to ever come close to this price point?

    Su-57 is more expensive than su-35.

    Export price of su-30MKI is reaching 70 million. Su-57 will easily reach 90-100 million.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:06 pm

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 27 275203

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik on Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:20 pm

    Backman wrote:Apparently Algeria has now officially purchased 14 su 57's + for 2 billion dollars. It was just a coincidence that i mentioned it yesterday

    https://twitter.com/brokly990/status/1330075122397540354?s=20

    Watch out for CAATSA Algeria. cry
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    Post  nero on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:38 pm

    Isos wrote:That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.

    You do not just buy the aircraft, you also buy training equipment, materials (armaments) and a lot of other miscellaneous shit. If anything it's pretty cheap. Not to mention that it is all a matter of negotiation.
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    Post  PeregrineFalcon on Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:10 pm

    LMFS wrote:The "LEVCONS" in Su-57 are simply LE flaps for the body lifting surface, they are scheduled, for what I have seen, absolutely the same way that LE flaps on the wings. So they allow to increase AoA without airflow detaching and that is very important when the lifting surface outside of the wings is so big as in the Su-57. They don't deflect upwards like canards would do to pitch the nose upwards, some people get confused by this.

    The effect of the LERX seems less pronounced in Su-57 than in other planes like Flanker itself, vortexes always generate drag so that may be a good thing, if the manage to keep the airflow attached more with the LEVCONS and less with LERX turbulence.

    Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I'm following its content for quite some time!

    I decided to join because I have noticed that some of my writing was shared from F-16.net forum. My nick was Fastetbird, and I was using this nick [Peregrinefalcon] on Keypublishing forum. I'm not active for years now, don't have much time for writing.

    Anyway, your observations are incorrect, and I will post this video to explain it better:



    At 1:48 sec. of the video we can see that the LEVCON is deflecting upwards, unlike the LE flaps, and is still in upward position and than in neutral while the LE flaps are deflected downwards. You can reduce the playback speed to see it more clearly.
    At the same time, the vertical tails are also deflecting in opposite direction in relation to each other to put the extra pressure on the back of the plane. In combination with LEVCON's, this creates strong moment arm around COG for much sooner rotation of the plane during takeoff.

    Also, LEVCON's have similar role as LE flaps through convectional flight envelope, but during the high AoA maneuvering they are totally detached from synchronized movement with LE flaps.

    [img]Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 27 139754-197456220-afdd2bdcee4941847845845d2860ff16[/img]

    https://www.mycity-military.com/slika.php?slika=139754_197456220_afdd2bdcee4941847845845d2860ff16.jpg

    This image for example shows that one LEVCON is deflected upwards and the other one downwards, while both LE flaps are deflected downwards.

    Here is the interview with Sergey Bogdan where he compares the Su-27 with Su-35S and PAK FA. I have also presented the link in F-16.net forum for the video where he compares the Su-35S and PAK FA, but its not there anymore. If I find it I will post it here. In that video he is claiming that the PAK FA is having greater acceleration and turning performance compared to Su-35s among other things, and if I remember correctly, he was also saying that it even has greater fuel capacity!

    https://aviation21.ru/sergej-bogdan-svoj-pilotazh-ya-ocenivayu-vesma-sderzhanno/

    But I think that this link is more than enough to shed some light on the difference between Su-27, Su-35S and PAK FA!

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman on Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:23 pm

    PeregrineFalcon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:The "LEVCONS" in Su-57 are simply LE flaps for the body lifting surface, they are scheduled, for what I have seen, absolutely the same way that LE flaps on the wings. So they allow to increase AoA without airflow detaching and that is very important when the lifting surface outside of the wings is so big as in the Su-57. They don't deflect upwards like canards would do to pitch the nose upwards, some people get confused by this.

    The effect of the LERX seems less pronounced in Su-57 than in other planes like Flanker itself, vortexes always generate drag so that may be a good thing, if the manage to keep the airflow attached more with the LEVCONS and less with LERX turbulence.

    Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I'm following its content for quite some time!

    I decided to join because I have noticed that some of my writing was shared from F-16.net forum. My nick was Fastetbird,

    No way ! Welcome Fastestbird. Make sure you introduce yourself in the intro page. Its a requirement on the forum.

    the vertical tails are also deflecting in opposite direction in relation to each other to put the extra pressure on the back of the plane.

    Yeah i see that. They are both canted inward quite a bit
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:01 pm

    Isos wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The Chinese bought two dozen Su-35S jets for $ 2.5 billion.

    I have to ask: what are you smoking that you'd think the Su-57 is going to ever come close to this price point?

    Su-57 is more expensive than su-35.

    Export price of su-30MKI is reaching 70 million. Su-57 will easily reach 90-100 million.

    Armenia bought 4 Su-30SM for 100 million USD. That comes to 25 million USD for each Su-30SM. Maybe Russia sells to Armenia at heavy discount. Who knows?
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:12 pm

    PeregrineFalcon wrote:I decided to join because I have noticed that some of my writing was shared from F-16.net forum. My nick was Fastetbird, and I was using this nick [Peregrinefalcon] on Keypublishing forum. I'm not active for years now, don't have much time for writing.

    Welcome!

    At 1:48 sec. of the video we can see that the LEVCON is deflecting upwards,

    Good find! I had not seen this before, thought it had been argued they could be used to pitch the nose up. 99% per cent of the time LEVCONs are scheduled like the LE flaps and only bend downwards, but you managed to find a moment when they go upwards, even when only very slightly, way less than normal canards. It makes sense, since this is an additional trim option the plane has. I stand corrected.

    BTW, during take off the plane seems to need really minimal deflection of the surface controls to pitch up the nose and take off. It seems like the plane has substantial longitudinal instability, how do you think this should work in supersonic flight? What do you think is the design point of the airframe, that is, the speed at which it needs the least trim?

    Also, LEVCON's have similar role as LE flaps through convectional flight envelope, but during the high AoA maneuvering they are totally detached from synchronized movement with LE flaps.

    Actually now I remember seeing them scheduling differentially, for roll maneouvers, but in that post I oversimplified it, you are right. Modern FCS can schedule the surface controls as it suits better to minimize drag and improve performance.


    Here is the interview with Sergey Bogdan where he compares the Su-27 with Su-35S and PAK FA. I have also presented the link in F-16.net forum for the video where he compares the Su-35S and PAK FA, but its not there anymore. If I find it I will post it here. In that video he is claiming that the PAK FA is having greater acceleration and turning performance compared to Su-35s among other things, and if I remember correctly, he was also saying that it even has greater fuel capacity!

    The interview is good, from the old days when they actually said interesting things about the plane, thanks. I am not seeing all those claims there, if you find the video it will be great.

    Don't get me wrong, I expect that the Su-57 surpasses the Su-35 in most regards, but in absence of proof is good to be cautious.

    BTW I found your argumentation very well built, my main comment was the lack of evidence for some claims as they were posted here. Of course I am happy to learn new things about the Su-57, it is getting harder this days almost nothing is disclosed thumbsup


    Last edited by LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:18 pm

    Thanks PeregrineFalcoln for the aviation21 source, Now thats another website I would like to use on aviation sources. https://aviation21.ru/su-57-krugovoe-zrenie-i-10-tonn-vooruzheniya/

    "He explains that the aircraft has already received six fundamentally new missiles, and by 2020 it will receive six more. Four missile samples are placed inside the fuselage in a special compartment. New air-to-air missiles are: RVV-MD (short-range), SD (medium-range) and DB (long-range). In total, more than 10 new models of aircraft weapons have been developed for the Su-57.

    Borisov Obnosov clarifies, without naming specific figures, that the range of missiles for the Su-57 exceeds the previously created samples twice. And this is a very good result, especially since to reduce the visibility of missiles on them, as well as on the Su-57 itself, a special radio absorbing coating is applied."


    So is Borisov basically implying here that there will be newer air to air missiles(the Su-57 2nd variant being tested from 2022-2024) that will have twice the ranges for all short, medium and long range missiles? He said the aircraft already has 6 new missiles and by 2020 there will be 6 more newer ones(which is safe to assume is the rumored new weapons for the 2nd variant). Does anyone know what received 6 new missiles he meant? Because I am assuming the RVV-MD, SD and DB are 3 and the other 3 are air to ground missiles which implies the 6 newer ones will have twice the range than the previous new missiles? Is that somewhat correct?

    https://aviation21.ru/su-57-poluchil-dvigatel-vtorogo-etapa-izdelie-30/

    "In the november 2018 edition of the "Military Host" program of the TV channel "Star" in November 2018, the general designer-director of the Design Bureau, Evgeny Marchukov, said that "product 30" is a generation of 5, slightly ahead of the fifth. "It is this generation that corresponds to the engine in specific traction, specific consumption and specific weight,"

    dying to know what he means by specific consumption.

    https://aviation21.ru/su-57-bezopasnaya-toplivnaya-sistema-i-vsevidyashhij-radar/

    According to Igor Frolov, deputy director of the GRS Science and Technology Center, during tests in the non-Eha chamber, the mode of operation for transmission simulates full radiation, as it occurs as part of the aircraft when working in a location mode. As a result of the work of scientists, designers, workers and test engineers, a radar is produced, with which "Su-57 pilots see everything that happens in the sky within a radius of several hundred kilometers."


    Last edited by thegopnik on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:11 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Wrong source)

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:22 pm

    thegopnik wrote:dying to know what he means by specific consumption.

    I would translate it like TSFC.

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    Tai Hai Chen
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    Post  Tai Hai Chen on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:48 pm

    Man, having bad feelings no Su-57 will be delivered this year according to schedule. December 2019 deja vu all over again.
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    Post  thegopnik on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:44 pm

    Assuming that Borisov Obnosov was not drunk off his ass in that February 2018 source with all the new created weapons that have existed for the Su-57, than the newer weapons offered for the 2nd variant already will far exceed the current weapon projects in development for the F-35. Also sorry to this board about lying about the specs of these missiles from the F-35.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 27 Cuda_p10
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 27 Aim-1210

    I lied about the missile being half size with same range of aim-120. However to have the same range it is to use the booster and the CUDA. http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/2019/03/aim-120c-study-using-missile-sim-part-3.html Although I am curious as to how a 1.85 meter length missile would perform in comparison to a 3.02 meter side winder, I will just assume that they are the same ranges. If current shortrange missile is 40kms and Borisov says twice meaning we multiple the K-74m2 twice it will be 80kms which I am wondering if we are able to cut the k-74m2 in half to get a rough estimate of the same range as CUDA the length would be roughly 1.46 meters length while having a smaller diameter? Also if we were to take into consideration that all these new air to air missiles had folding fins how many of the 1.46 meters by 165mm diameter missiles can we fit in the internal bays of the Su-57?

    air to ground missiles that stick out to me are kh-58, 59 and 35 so I am assuming by newest he means the latest variants of these missiles and by latest variants their ranges could be multiplied by 2(since they are the previous ones he has said that were already new) therefore increased speeds in the process as well. Hope this prediction is right. Shocked
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:15 am

    Yeah that is the idea, to trim with the most drag-effective way of creating force, but when the center of lift moves backward at supersonic speeds you would need the nozzles pointing upwards and therefore pushing the tail down to trim the plane. Instead, if the LEVCONs are used to modify the body's airfoil equivalent camber you are creating lift in a drag economical way in front of the CoG to adjust AoA as needed. That is better than pushing the plane down with the TVC.

    But TVC to trim the aircraft does not push anything down... indeed the jet engines angled slightly down increases lift it does not counter lift.

    More to the point the trimming effect of the engine nozzles does not lift or drag down the aircraft which is riding on wing and fuselage induced lift... all it effectively does is turn the aircraft on its point of rotation around its centre of gravity without any control surfaces needing to be deflected and therefore contribute to drag and increased RCS.

    A plane never flies at 0 deg AoA, that is the question. If you create force downwards with the nozzles as you say above to move the nose up, you are detracting that force from your lift and therefore increasing the needed AoA and associated drag of the plane.

    The ability to vector the thrust angle means you can change the angle the aircraft sits at in regards to the incoming airflow... you can see it at airshows... it often is used to allow horizontal level flight with the nose pitched up or down, which looks cool at airshows because it looks like it should be climbing or descending but it is flying level, but at altitude at high cruise speed it can be used to fly into the oncoming airflow with the minimum of drag without needing to deflect a conventional control surface which if moved to create lift at the front or downwards force at the back will also cause drag.

    That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.

    Depends on what is included... they don't have any current Su-57s so that would include simulators and munitions and full training...

    I rather suspect the Russians were not in a huge hurry to export the aircraft too... besides... 36 Rafales for 8 billion for India... works out at 222 million per aircraft... are you trying to say the Rafale is a much better aircraft worth the extra?

    The US will be buying F-15s for about 150 million... I would think exported models will be over 200 million each... I would think a few US allies might think they are a better bet than F-35s. Cheaper to operate, faster, heavier payload, longer flight range...



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    Post  LMFS on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:54 am

    GarryB wrote:But TVC to trim the aircraft does not push anything down... indeed the jet engines angled slightly down increases lift it does not counter lift.

    At supersonic speeds the center of lift moves backwards, that means, the nose tends to fall. To compensate for that your nozzles need to point upwards, that is, create a downward force, to lift the nose. That force needs to be compensated with more lift to keep level flight.

    More to the point the trimming effect of the engine nozzles does not lift or drag down the aircraft which is riding on wing and fuselage induced lift... all it effectively does is turn the aircraft on its point of rotation around its centre of gravity without any control surfaces needing to be deflected and therefore contribute to drag and increased RCS.

    Not really. A downwards force needs to be compensated, not differently to tail deflection. It is better to have lift in front of the CoG than downforce behind it. TVC does not generate drag the same way an aero surface does, but it does not bend physics either.

    The ability to vector the thrust angle means you can change the angle the aircraft sits at in regards to the incoming airflow...

    Yes I know. The point you seem to be missing is that pitching the nose down is done by creating additional lift with the TVC while pitching it up demands the nozzles to press the tail down. So one way it creates lift, the other reduces it. That was the whole rationale behind canards on longitudinally stable planes BTW, so instead of a tail reducing lift all the time to avoid nose falling, you have a foreplane increasing it.

    In the video PeregrineFalcon posted you see very well how little deflection is needed for the plane to initiate the rotation and how it is maintained with the LEVCONs in neutral position, also it has a negative AoA provided by the landing gear. The plane probably is quite unstable longitudinally, that should help in supersonic flight because when the center of lift moves backwards it will increasingly match the CoG and therefore make trimming less necessary. And having control surfaces and TVC ahead and after the CoG allows to do this trimming only by adding lift as said above. Sokhoi has been doing this for a while and I can understand they do not want to go back to conventional aero layouts, because they don't have such possibilities.
    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:32 am

    thegopnik wrote:
    dying to know what he means by specific consumption.

    Specific consumption - fuel consumption in grams per kilonewton of engine power per hour of operation in nominal mode.
    I think it stands for something like this.
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    Post  tomazy on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:44 am

    This seems legit, dont know if it was posted before, just seen it on another forum.
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 27 Em9ljv10
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:51 am

    This looks like a RC model.

    The small missile is a sidewinder model and the big one isn't a real model.
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    Post  Backman on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:27 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Yeae TVC.

    A plane never flies at 0 deg AoA, that is the question. If you create force downwards with the nozzles as you say above to move the nose up, you are detracting that force from your lift and therefore increasing the needed AoA and associated drag of the plane.

    That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.

    Depends on what is included... they don't have any current Su-57s so that would include simulators and munitions and full training...

    I rather suspect the Russians were not in a huge hurry to export the aircraft too... besides... 36 Rafales for 8 billion for India... works out at 222 million per aircraft... are you trying to say the Rafale is a much better aircraft worth the extra?

    The US will be buying F-15s for about 150 million... I would think exported models will be over 200 million each... I would think a few US allies might think they are a better bet than F-35s. Cheaper to operate, faster, heavier payload, longer flight range...




    Wow. So that French India deal adds up to 222 million each. That puts it in perspective. I like the Rafale and want Canada to go.back its French roots and order them. But no. The su 57 is a 5th generation aircraft. Judging by what I've learned on this page , it's a 5.5 gen. And its upgradable to a 6th gen. The Rafale isn't. And neither is the F-15X.

    Compared to deals like France/India, I think Russia gave Algeria as good of a deal as they could.

    But some ppl will still just compare the theoretical MFG cost of the F-35 for JSF program members , to an export contract price. Which is wrong of course. We can only compare to other export package prices.

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