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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They are not Russians, they are Ukrainians, they don't want to be Russian... the solution would be easy if they did, but they don't... even the people in the east who got bombed by Kiev forces don't want to become Russian, they just want to be able to speak Russian and trade with Russia like they used to... they don't see themselves as Russians.

    Joining the Russian federation is not the top of their lists... for many it isn't even a last resort, but some have mentioned it as a possibility... don't mistake that with being pro Russia.

    Decades of brainwashing will do that. However Russia acting like the few Ukrainians they can see eye to eye with don't matter at all certainly is no way to endear them to the others. No surprise their circle of friends shrink by the day and only the truly desperate would even dare to call them.

    GarryB wrote:
    Not a lot of resistance to it either... I mean if you said everyone in the house will now speak Scottish, and some people in the household said no, would it be OK to beat them to death, and when it came to criminal charges obviously the adult who administered the beating would be charged but would you ignore the rest of the family who stood by and let it happen and did nothing to stop it or defend the victim/s?

    I mean what was in Nulands cookies?

    Well it was pretty clear the alternative hadn't worked... clearly time for new solutions... an attitude of lets ignore genocide and wait till we can vote them out is not something I give much credit for.
    For most people that's about the extent of what they could do without incurring the ire of the violent nazi thugs - or are you begrudging even pensioners for shirking their supposed duties and manning the trenches in the East? Not to say they are entirely blameless, but we should be realistic here.

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that they defended themselves from their own government is no surprise and not something Russia should be rewarding.

    They didn't do it for Russia.

    The only reason the Eastern Ukrainians are even being targeted is because they refuse to repudiate their ties with Russia. Russia ought to have done more than what they did and they should be shamed for this. FFS they intervened in Syria for much less.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:43 pm

    par far wrote:...
    Of course I believe that people from western countries(mostly the US), want to come to Russia and most of them are Russians that left in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/a-message-to-russian-expats-living-in-the-us/

    Oh please...

    This is just empty talk

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:30 am

    Well, if the west continues to go in this path of rejecting its own history and culture and destroying everything that was created till now (art, literature, laws defending basic rights, etc) I would also consider moving to Russia.

    The only two places in the old continent that have not gone completely mad are Russia and Hungary. Considering that the latter may only last until Orban is not kicked out, that Hungary is much smaller and that I do not have any interest of learning Hungarian (while I can have already a basic conversation in Russian) Russia is a much better option...

    So I hope that in case of full degeneration of western and southern Europe, Russia will still allow skilled workers from EU countries ...

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:58 am

    Decades of brainwashing will do that. However Russia acting like the few Ukrainians they can see eye to eye with don't matter at all certainly is no way to endear them to the others. No surprise their circle of friends shrink by the day and only the truly desperate would even dare to call them.

    Yeah, I personally don't go out of my way to make friends with sadistic murderers... reformed or otherwise...

    These people are poor and desperate to improve their situation.... well that is fine... there are lots of people like that around.... like I said.... go to the back of the queue behind the people who didn't murder people for wanting to speak Russian.

    For most people that's about the extent of what they could do without incurring the ire of the violent nazi thugs - or are you begrudging even pensioners for shirking their supposed duties and manning the trenches in the East? Not to say they are entirely blameless, but we should be realistic here.

    Russia does not owe any of them any favours... this is about Russia... there are plenty of people wanting to start a new life without this western PC shit, why look at Ukrainians at all... they have spent the last 6 years burning bridges with Russia... now they realise it hurt them more than it hurt anyone else and they want to return some but not all things to the way they were... get real.

    They could start by rounding up all the rabid nazis and putting them in jail, and then some serious apologies would be good as well... not to mention some of the biggest monuments to Soviet achievements during WWII could be built and the blockade of various parts and former parts of the Ukraine would also need to be lifted completely... did I mention apologies... certainly more could be directed at the former ukrainian people whose lives they have made a real misery...

    After that Russia could start thinking about improving relations maybe.


    The only reason the Eastern Ukrainians are even being targeted is because they refuse to repudiate their ties with Russia.

    Ukrainians and Ukrainians... really nothing to do with Russia at all.

    If you think Russia should have invaded then they also should invade the Baltic republics for their treatment of Russian Speakers too...

    But those people are not Russian either.

    Russia ought to have done more than what they did and they should be shamed for this.

    Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... what exactly should they have done?

    FFS they intervened in Syria for much less.

    About 40,000 religious nutters from the former Soviet States and probably about 30,000 more from Eastern Europe went to Syria to the wests call to overthrow Assad and join ISIS... the best place to kill them was in Syria, so they went there and they helped out an honest ally. They made a huge difference and turned defeat into a victory.

    A government was saved and a country did not end up in chaos like Libya.

    Of course I believe that people from western countries(mostly the US), want to come to Russia and most of them are Russians that left in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's.

    The obvious problem there is that they will want things to change to be more like the US... which would be bad for Russia.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia does not owe any of them any favours... this is about Russia... there are plenty of people wanting to start a new life without this western PC shit, why look at Ukrainians at all... they have spent the last 6 years burning bridges with Russia... now they realise it hurt them more than it hurt anyone else and they want to return some but not all things to the way they were... get real.

    They could start by rounding up all the rabid nazis and putting them in jail, and then some serious apologies would be good as well... not to mention some of the biggest monuments to Soviet achievements during WWII could be built and the blockade of various parts and former parts of the Ukraine would also need to be lifted completely... did I mention apologies... certainly more could be directed at the former ukrainian people whose lives they have made a real misery...

    After that Russia could start thinking about improving relations maybe.

    That's one way to breed hate and resentment even further - force them while they are their lowest to grovel and kowtow before they could be received. And for what exactly? Petty revenge? No. If those acts of contrition were to happen they must be of their own will, not because its been expected of them by Russia as part of a transactional vassal-liege relationship but because they themselves see that what they did was wrong. Otherwise you'd only be inviting traitors with an ax to grind and not even a single hesitation to bury it behind your back the first time they get. You don't want those people - you want repentant people grateful enough to be given a second chance to redeem themselves. Something that's only possible as long as Russia does the minimum and keeps an open hand without expecting anything in return.

    Its not fair, its not just, but lets face it at the end of the day its much better than the alternative of letting more and more Ukrainians fester with their country to breed more footsoldiers for the nazis.

    GarryB wrote:

    Ukrainians and Ukrainians... really nothing to do with Russia at all.

    If you think Russia should have invaded then they also should invade the Baltic republics for their treatment of Russian Speakers too...

    But those people are not Russian either.
    They should. Much of these people are Russians in all but name and its entirely due to the accident of 30 years ago that they are recognized as Ukrainians.

    GarryB wrote:
    Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... what exactly should they have done?

    About 40,000 religious nutters from the former Soviet States and probably about 30,000 more from Eastern Europe went to Syria to the wests call to overthrow Assad and join ISIS... the best place to kill them was in Syria, so they went there and they helped out an honest ally. They made a huge difference and turned defeat into a victory.

    A government was saved and a country did not end up in chaos like Libya.
    Ukrainian nazis with the backing of NATO and the Western world's far right. So, according to you, its ok for one side to murder the other as long as its all in good secular fashion. For added bonus, totally ignore the country that's perfectly good real estate for a staging ground to launch invasions right into Russia's heartland in favor of a naval base that could barely be supplied if not for the benevolence of the Turks. Right.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:19 pm

    Lyle, you don't know Ukraine nor Ukrainians very well. I'm one.

    I'll explain a little something to you, something my great grandmother said when she left Ukraine:

    "Never trust a Ukrainian. They will stab you in the back as soon as they can".  She and her family were cossacks and left after the revolution in 1918.

    Ukraine and Ukrainians are always been rather rude, back stabby, ungrateful and nothing you do they will see it as a "second" chance.  Ukraine is an artificial state anyway with lots of land that never belonged to it, cobbled together.  Hate and resentment is natural for them and mostly the Polish half from the west.

    So Russia did do wrong by accepting these people.  Personally I would be OK with Russia rolling over and taking it by force. At this point Ukraine wouldn't be so damn backwards and have gangs ruling the streets like it does right now.

    Reason why Russia got Crimea back, because it has actual value. Russia already knows and knew that central Ukraine would be used to attack Russia proper. Hence why Russia has strengthened Crimea so that it's military can handle both mainland Ukraine and any naval groupings from NATO in the area. Mix in with missiles like Iskanders and Su-30's and long range missiles, they are covered for most part

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    par far

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    Post  par far Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:12 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    par far wrote:...
    Of course I believe that people from western countries(mostly the US), want to come to Russia and most of them are Russians that left in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/a-message-to-russian-expats-living-in-the-us/

    Oh please...

    This is just empty talk



    I don't think it is empty talk, the amount of pressure that is being placed in putting minorities(especially Africans) in positions, where they don't have the correct education or the meritocracy is huge.

    I watched a video(I believe it was LA), where the top public school, that had a high level of scores was branded discriminatory because most of the students were Asian(Chinese, Japanese). So what they did was instead of grades, they going to get a lottery system to get more "blacks", so it can be more diverse.

    During the conference they(it was in the gym), Asian parents got into fight with blacks and one of the Asian parents yelled "first you blame whites and now you blame Asians."

    What do you think is going to happen to that school?

    This is only going to intensify, I think there will be Russians and Chinese that will strongly consider moving back to their birth country.

    There are Chinese people living in the west going back to China to get their vaccine shots because they don't trust western vaccines(there probably are Russians living in the west doing the same), this should tell us where the west is headed.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:14 pm

    My Ukrainian half of the family drink heavily the anti-Russian koolaid. They deserve what they get. And by no means should
    Russia save them form their own idiocy.



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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:18 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Lyle, you don't know Ukraine nor Ukrainians very well. I'm one.

    I'll explain a little something to you, something my great grandmother said when she left Ukraine:

    "Never trust a Ukrainian. They will stab you in the back as soon as they can".  She and her family were cossacks and left after the revolution in 1918.

    Ukraine and Ukrainians are always been rather rude, back stabby, ungrateful and nothing you do they will see it as a "second" chance.  Ukraine is an artificial state anyway with lots of land that never belonged to it, cobbled together.  Hate and resentment is natural for them and mostly the Polish half from the west.

    So Russia did do wrong by accepting these people.  Personally I would be OK with Russia rolling over and taking it by force. At this point Ukraine wouldn't be so damn backwards and have gangs ruling the streets like it does right now.

    Reason why Russia got Crimea back, because it has actual value.  Russia already knows and knew that central Ukraine would be used to attack Russia proper. Hence why Russia has strengthened Crimea so that it's military can handle both mainland Ukraine and any naval groupings from NATO in the area.  Mix in with missiles like Iskanders and Su-30's and long range missiles, they are covered for most part

    I can assure you Ukrainians don't hold a monopoly on this particular affliction of the psyche. Its unfortunate that it is what it is, but be that as it may we should be asking ourselves what can done be done about it?

    One could contemplate following the East German template and metaphorically (and possibly literally) walling off Ukraine from Russia and Crimea altogether. Bury one's head in the sand as it was, and maybe hope the problem fixes itself with time. Not that leaving the Ukrainians to their devices mostly have improved their situation as we've seen.

    There's the other option espoused by the nazis, but who cares what they think.

    Or one could go about the mostly peaceful route of absorbing anyone willing to eject themselves from the country, depriving Ukraine of the people with which it preys upon to sustain itself. It would be the about same effect if the 1st Guards Tank were let loose on the Ukrainian steppes only with significantly less bloodshed and a great advantage to Russia's position to boot.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:35 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote: It is way easier to integrate ukrainians  (or moldovans or armenians as an example) in Russia than Africans.
    I would be wary of importing a lot of people without control from subsaharian Africa.

    The culture is way too different and most people there are not ready to live in an European or Russian society without some intermediate steps.
    That's correct. There is absolutely no need to allow the entry of Africans and Asians into Russia. In any case they enter Europe/Russia with the sole intention of free loading. Their culture is completely different from ours and they will never integrate.

    Russia might become the next Britain where uncontrolled migration of blacks, hindus, muslims and other colored races have reduced Whites to a minority.

    Most importantly, these blacks, muslim, hindu, buddhist imports from Africa, Asia will completely destroy Russia's gene pool.

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:59 pm

    jhelb wrote:...That's correct. There is absolutely no need to allow the entry of Africans and Asians into Russia. In any case they enter Europe/Russia with the sole intention of free loading. Their culture is completely different from ours and they will never integrate...

    Africans and Asians work for a living, learn the language, adapt to local culture and strive to become Russians and once they achieve it they take pride in being called Russians

    Contrast that with the Ukrainians who have no problem taking Russian money while refusing to work and who demand free shit because they see themselves as more valuable than others just because they have pale sickly complexion and faces of fetal alcohol syndrome victims

    Of course if anyone does dare to call them Russians they will take it as ultimate insult and will demand retribution



    jhelb wrote:...Most importantly, these blacks, muslim, hindu, buddhist imports from Africa, Asia will completely destroy Russia's gene pool.

    Same gene pool that gave us Lenin, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Rogozin, Navalny and you?

    I say destroy away attack



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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:48 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    jhelb wrote:...That's correct. There is absolutely no need to allow the entry of Africans and Asians into Russia. In any case they enter Europe/Russia with the sole intention of free loading. Their culture is completely different from ours and they will never integrate...

    Africans and Asians work for a living, learn the language, adapt to local culture and strive to become Russians and once they achieve it they take pride in being called Russians

    Contrast that with the Ukrainians who have no problem taking Russian money while refusing to work and who demand free shit because they see themselves as more valuable than others just because they have pale sickly complexion and faces of fetal alcohol syndrome victims

    Of course if anyone does dare to call them Russians they will take it as ultimate insult and will demand retribution



    jhelb wrote:...Most importantly, these blacks, muslim, hindu, buddhist imports from Africa, Asia will completely destroy Russia's gene pool.

    Same gene pool that gave us Lenin, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Rogozin, Navalny and you?

    I say destroy away  attack



    papadragon, if you take singularly some skilled worker of African origin that decide to integrate in Russia of course he can do it.

    What must not be done is what is done nowadays in Europe. Allow uncontrolled immigration of people from Africa (or any other countries with completely different culture), actually motivating them by giving them lodging and paying them a daily allowance does not help anyone. Just create even more problems. In Italy, except some lucky exception most of this people never try to integrate and most of them are not able to find legal work, and either ends up being  exploited picking fruits for 2 euro/ hour (but they can do it since they have a daily allowance and no control on their activities, while an Italian could not afford to do that and pay for living expenses) or end up joining some criminal organisation (and the Nigerian gangs in Italy are already famous).

    I still do not understand why a large immigration would be needed from Russia.
    Allowing ethnic Russians to come to Russia is one thing (and also that is not easy in mass because many or them were subject to continued anti russian propaganda in the last 30 years) but allowing large groups of foreigners to settle in the land together only brings problems.

    You can integrate other cultures and other ethnic groups but it just be done gradually and they have to accept to follow the same rules as everyone else (as an example in Italy gipsies have no interest in following the state rules and become positive members of the society around them an the large majority of illegal migrants coming in Italy in the recent past will never be integrated and they are forming their own ghettos.

    Immigration has sense only if you can gradually turn the people coming there into state citizen... And I do not mean by giving them a passport, but having them assimilate the culture, the way of living and behaving, etc.

    The only way to solve the population decline is if our own citizens make more children. Otherwise gradually your country will disappear or will be taken over by another one.
    Importing large groups of foreigners that will never be integrated will only accelerate the decline.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:19 am

    There is clearly no plan for large scale "darkie" immigration into Russia. Russia still has millions of real Russians (not Ukrs) living in
    its near abroad. Millions have repatriated but there are still many left.

    The fact that there is a finite absorption rate for immigrants with large cultural and skill differences and even for theoretically
    identical to the indigenous population, is routinely ignored. Over the short term there is a limit to job accommodation which
    is a real show stopper. Germany's mass imports were 97% unemployed after 2 years. This has nothing to do with any
    racism and discrimination. Job positions don't just pop up when you want them. And the market demand created by the
    immigrants is tiny relative to its background state. So it is not like the immigrants bootstrap themselves into jobs just by
    arriving.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:23 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:papadragon, if you take singularly some skilled worker of African origin that decide to integrate in Russia of course he can do it.

    What must not be done is what is done nowadays in Europe. Allow uncontrolled immigration of people...

    I never said anything about uncontrolled immigration from anywhere, rules and requirements exist, enforce them

    Immigrants should be selected based on qualifications and language skills regardless of race

    The Ukrainians however should be on the bottom of the pile, they are useless, malignant and without any loyalty to anything other than Bandera's cult, this much is evident now



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:12 pm

    That's one way to breed hate and resentment even further - force them while they are their lowest to grovel and kowtow before they could be received.

    Hey dude... the resentment and hate is alive and well... it was the Ukraine that cut ties with Russia and not the other way around... Russia is still the biggest foreign investor in the Ukrainian economy... you bet your ass they had better do some sincere foot kissing if they want to go back to anything like it used to be because there are plenty of Russian companies suffering because of the actions of the west and also the Ukraine that need investment and financial assistance that kept losing out because money was spent on these ingrates.

    And for what exactly? Petty revenge? No.

    Revenge has nothing to do with it... we are talking trust and they pissed all over Russia... why should Russia take them back and treat them like friends?

    If those acts of contrition were to happen they must be of their own will, not because its been expected of them by Russia as part of a transactional vassal-liege relationship but because they themselves see that what they did was wrong.

    That is what I am saying... the Ukraine needs to do these things without being asked to do so to prove they understand what a shit neighbour they have been to their best friend and ally.... and they should realise that even if they do all that and more that Russia still has every right to tell them to go fuck themselves... they made their bed with the west... learn to deal with the lumps and the scratchy bits... and the fact that the west never sleeps on the wet patch.

    Otherwise you'd only be inviting traitors with an ax to grind and not even a single hesitation to bury it behind your back the first time they get. You don't want those people - you want repentant people grateful enough to be given a second chance to redeem themselves. Something that's only possible as long as Russia does the minimum and keeps an open hand without expecting anything in return.

    Such assholes will always be a large percentage of that population... everything will always be Putins fault and it will all be some big trap Putin pushed them in to... I wasn't the fault of the innocent Ukrainians, not even the fault of the west... it was Putins fault for making us do such terrible things.


    Its not fair, its not just, but lets face it at the end of the day its much better than the alternative of letting more and more Ukrainians fester with their country to breed more footsoldiers for the nazis.

    It is not Russias problem... the Ukraine will never turn back and become best buddies with Russia... they will never decide... hey we are all Russians underneath after all... lets drop this bullshit and all just be brothers... it simply wont happen... they will always be different and they will always be quick to blame Moscow for any of their problems... no matter how much money the Russian taxpayers throw at them.

    They should. Much of these people are Russians in all but name and its entirely due to the accident of 30 years ago that they are recognized as Ukrainians.

    Important distinction... they see themselves as Ukrainians... trying to get the Ukraine back on side would be like trying to tell Americans that they are really British and French and Dutch and Spanish and Portuguese etc etc... they will never be anything other than white americans and african americans...

    Ukrainian nazis with the backing of NATO and the Western world's far right.

    Yep, armed and enabled by the west in an organised coup... we even know the Americans contributed 5 billion and some cookies to the venture.

    So, according to you, its ok for one side to murder the other as long as its all in good secular fashion.

    No of course not... but the Ukraine is a mess created by the US and the west... they totally fucked the country over... but now you expect Russia to pick up the pieces and make everything OK... piss off. The Ukraine is now Americas bitch and Germanys bitch... if you need soap or toothpaste or some other inmate shanked then you go see your new boss and get them to help you.

    For added bonus, totally ignore the country that's perfectly good real estate for a staging ground to launch invasions right into Russia's heartland in favor of a naval base that could barely be supplied if not for the benevolence of the Turks. Right.

    The choice was not made by Russia, it was made by the Ukrainian people. The Ukrainian people in the Crimea were sick of pretending to not be Russian and voted to be Russian again.... hense the Russian naval base and the surrounds in the Crimea are now Russian territory... by choice of the people living there.

    The people in the rest of the Ukraine don't want to be Russian or part of Russia, they are just not happy with the current bunch of censored in Kiev. If a government got into power in Kiev that said you can speak Russian if you like and we are going to drop all our trade embargoes with Russia, so that Russia will in turn drop them too they would probably have no problems putting down their arms and returning to normal.

    Their problem is that Kiev is nothing like sensible because giving in to the terms of the rebels would actually go a long way to fixing their economy too.

    Russia was never in any position to send in enormous armed forces to dictate to the people what was going to happen and never had any interest in doing that either... unlike the west who tells people what they are going to do all the time whether they like it or not.

    Russia was always going to have ports in the Black Sea... returning the Crimea just meant they could keep their biggest port in the area operational.

    Its unfortunate that it is what it is, but be that as it may we should be asking ourselves what can done be done about it?

    Surely it would make more sense to understand the Japanese Psyche and solve their mental problems because a few sensible Japs working in Russia would be better than having stab in the back bitter Ukrainians... their work ethic borders on psychotic...

    One could contemplate following the East German template and metaphorically (and possibly literally) walling off Ukraine from Russia and Crimea altogether.

    The reverse reasoning though... it will be Ukrainians that want to escape poverty and corruption to go to Russian territory...

    Bury one's head in the sand as it was, and maybe hope the problem fixes itself with time.

    You are missing the whole point though. Russia does not have a problem... the Ukraine does.

    Not that leaving the Ukrainians to their devices mostly have improved their situation as we've seen.

    The Ukraine has had 30 years to build their nation and they are clearly in a period of serious setback and collapse... it is OK... Russia had that in the 1990s along with the Ukraine and the other countries of the Soviet Union thanks to the assistance of the US and the west to asset strip anything of value to be stolen and sent to western bank accounts by heros like Bill Browder etc.

    It seriously damaged the Russian Federation, but then Putin took charge and sorted a lot of things out... some things took a lot of time but they did it.

    Or one could go about the mostly peaceful route of absorbing anyone willing to eject themselves from the country, depriving Ukraine of the people with which it preys upon to sustain itself. It would be the about same effect if the 1st Guards Tank were let loose on the Ukrainian steppes only with significantly less bloodshed and a great advantage to Russia's position to boot.

    There are people from all sorts of former Soviet Republics wanting to become Russian citizens to work and live in Russia.... why let Ukrainians jump the queue?

    What must not be done is what is done nowadays in Europe. Allow uncontrolled immigration of people from Africa (or any other countries with completely different culture), a

    One of the really clever things European countries do is not allow these immigrants trying to get citizenship or residency to work, which means while they get an allowance and lodgings they have nothing to do and little money to spend and they see around them shops full of nice stuff they can't afford and people busy and working which they cannot do... of course the young men are going to get into trouble...

    What they should be doing is putting these people into training programmes to find their skills and interests and get them trained up so that if they get accepted they can go straight into work... the skills programmes can be like an apprenticeship so they earn extra money on top of their allowance so they can afford to live and buy what they want.

    At least that way if they rape and steal and generally misbehave then you can say you made the right choice deporting them back to where they came from.

    The Ukrainians however should be on the bottom of the pile, they are useless, malignant and without any loyalty to anything other than Bandera's cult, this much is evident now

    They are essentially anti Russian Russians, which makes them less desirable than non Russians who might be interested in assimilating...
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They are essentially anti Russian Russians, which makes them less desirable than non Russians who might be interested in assimilating...

    Surely again a bit sweeping Garry. OK, most of the population are rabid anti Russians but can you be sure that there are not Ukrainians trapped there who would genuinely rather be in Russia but who have not yet screwed up the courage to make the move? Or had/have a job, say in manufacturing which can be pretty high skill level, that they didn't want to leave but now do.
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:09 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    They are essentially anti Russian Russians, which makes them less desirable than non Russians who might be interested in assimilating...

    Surely again a bit sweeping Garry. OK, most of the population are rabid anti Russians but can you be sure that there are not Ukrainians trapped there who would genuinely rather be in Russia but who have not yet screwed up the courage to make the move? Or had/have a job, say in manufacturing which can be pretty high skill level, that they didn't want to leave but now do.

    I can say easily that it doesn't matter about them. They are cattle for the west anyway. And if they had any ounce of respect for themselves, they would have left already.

    Fuck em.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:44 am

    Surely again a bit sweeping Garry.

    Yes of course.

    OK, most of the population are rabid anti Russians but can you be sure that there are not Ukrainians trapped there who would genuinely rather be in Russia but who have not yet screwed up the courage to make the move?

    After over 30 years of anti Russian bullshit I would think those who could leave already have, or their ties to their country are more important to them than their economic wellbeing.

    There will be people who have had enough and will leave and there are others who will stay and try to make things better, but after leaving it this late even the most hardline anti Russian will be realising they can't really afford to not trade with their enormous neighbour that used to be at the core of their economy.

    One could argue that most of the people who have left might have disagreed with the direction the ship was taking and voted with their boots, but can you honestly tell me the people still there were so opposed to what the Ukraine was doing the last 30 years and they have just been sticking around for loyalty?

    Now that all the things of value have been stripped by western companies and even companies in other countries including China who wanted cheap engine and aircraft technology they couldn't buy anywhere else, now the Ukrainian people are looking around and realising there is not much left of anything so if you want to keep living in a city you go east to Russia or west to the EU... and going to the EU you will have language barriers and to be constantly telling everyone you are Ukrainian and not Russian, and a rather alien culture to boot, or you go to Russia... home of the people who did this to your country.

    Yes, it takes courage to leave everything behind and start a new life, but people have been doing that forever... no brownie points for that...

    Or had/have a job, say in manufacturing which can be pretty high skill level, that they didn't want to leave but now do.

    I would say the ones with skill went some time ago, and most likely went west to Airbus or Boeing... well why wouldn't you...

    And imagine the welcome in the UK... I seem to remember a rant from Jimmy Carr about all these Ukrainians taking the jobs from our Poles....

    There will be lots of jobs in Russia that Russians don't want to do... especially in the colder more remote places...

    You can give them hugs and money, but they wont appreciate it... after all it was all Russias fault in the first place... they tricked us into putting nazis and psychos in power... and they didn't give us free gas....
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    Post  par far Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:37 am

    Why are we talking about bringing migrants into Russia, is the population in decline? I think with the policies that the Russian government is implementing($400 billion to fight poverty, money to parents and stuff like this will really help.)

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:01 am

    par far wrote:Why are we talking about bringing migrants into Russia, is the population in decline? I think with the policies that the Russian government is implementing($400 billion to fight poverty, money to parents and stuff like this will really help.)

    Good point.

    I remember hearing this money to help fight poverty in Russia. Do you have a link though? I can't find old one.
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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:46 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    par far wrote:Why are we talking about bringing migrants into Russia, is the population in decline? I think with the policies that the Russian government is implementing($400 billion to fight poverty, money to parents and stuff like this will really help.)

    Good point.

    I remember hearing this money to help fight poverty in Russia. Do you have a link though? I can't find old one.

    The actual number is about $40 billion per year over 5 years:

    https://www.rt.com/business/510731-russia-poverty-reduction-spending/

    The Russian government is to spend a total of 15.3 trillion rubles (nearly $207 billion) over five years to reduce poverty and boost citizens’ real incomes, the country’s Accounts Chamber has said in its latest report.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7971p875-russian-economy-general-news-11#306825

    I compared the $40 billion as a fraction of Russia's military budget and got an equivalent of $454 billion per year for the USA.
    The logic was a retort to the liberast 5th column which claims Putin is spending precious money on military aggression instead
    of on pensioners.   Russia is clearly spending way more than America on fighting poverty vs. fighting colonials wars.

    BTW, almost $42 billion per year on anti-poverty measures is substantial for Russia.   In terms of PPP it is closer to $120 billion
    per year and the population of Russia is 147/330 = 44.5% that of the USA.   So in direct terms the USA would have to spend
    about $240 billion per year to get the same effect.   That is actually $1.2 trillion over 5 years.    So my comparison with the US military
    budget was overstating the scale but by a factor under two.


    Last edited by kvs on Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected the text for clarity.)

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    Post  calripson Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:51 pm

    par far wrote:Why are we talking about bringing migrants into Russia, is the population in decline? I think with the policies that the Russian government is implementing($400 billion to fight poverty, money to parents and stuff like this will really help.)

    The population is slowly declining. Russia has a huge landmass and could support a population much larger than its current population particularly in the Far East. There is nothing wrong with immigrants of the right type. They are only a net positive.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:51 pm

    By the way, I read in another post that some groups of afrikaners (Boers) were starting settling up in Russia. By I think they are more interested in the area around the Volga than in Siberia or in the Far West
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:36 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:By the way, I read in another post that some groups of afrikaners (Boers) were starting settling up in Russia. By I think they are more interested in the area around the Volga than in Siberia or in the Far West

    Actually settling or just talking about it?
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:40 am

    As the world population increases there will be issues with supplying fresh water, and there will also become issues with land.

    Increasing populations will become an issue pretty soon and I suspect the UN will lead the charge by promoting education and contraception to the third world...

    Well when I say education and contraception, I probably mean education about contraception... they wont want them to get educated and start taking our jobs right...

    Animal rights activists are going to start going apeshit simply because as the human population increases the places they can expand into are limited because there is farmland which will also have to expand to meet the food production needs of the enlarged population, and there is useless land that is barren and rocky or sand deserts like the Sahara, or open flat empty tundra...

    Perhaps work needs to start with trying to replant the Sahara and convert it back into grasslands or forests or whatever.

    Technology like mobile nuclear power stations could be used to create water pumping stations and desalination plants for people and regions...

    Imagine a dozen NPPs working in Australia 24/7 to desalinate sea water and then pump it to the centre of Australia where the ground is dozens of metres below sea level but is a dry dustbowl.

    A giant freshwater lake in the centre of Australia that could be used for irrigation and growing trees and food...

    The sort of thing you could do if you weren't spending so much on F-35s and shit you don't need...

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