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    US Navy and Naval Aircraft: News

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:57 pm

    The thing is now burning for three days. Two fires. "Should be extinguished in 24 hours" according to some Admiral. Embarassed
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:20 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QDQGYSAfJU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiJZQcmNl_E

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34832/veteran-sailor-on-why-navy-ships-can-be-most-vulnerable-in-port-and-how-to-change-that

    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/07/14/navy-reports-progress-fighting-fire-aboard-bonhomme-richard/

    The amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard, which burned through the night while in port in San Diego, was at the tail end of two years of upgrades supporting the integration of the F-35B, according to Navy documents.
    That means the Navy will now have fewer options to deploy the next-generation fighter in the Pacific. ..Experts said the loss of Bonhomme Richard, whether a total loss or just lost for extensive repairs, deals a significant blow to the Navy’s plans to have F-35Bs continually deployed in the Pacific. And with Monday’s announcement that the United States had formally rejected China’s claims about the South China Sea, any accompanying boost in naval presence could be slowed by the fire.
    The Navy’s deployment model is based on having permanent forward presence in vital regions, such as the Indo-Pacific and the Middle East. To accomplish that, the service needs enough ships to support one forward on deployment, one in an elevated status of readiness to surge in an emergency, one in maintenance and one in pre-deployment workups.
    In other words, in an ideal world the Navy would have at least four ships to have one of them always on deployment. But with longer overhauls, such as the F-35B upgrades, it might require five ships to make one forward.
    “It’s a big problem, considering the F-35B is the Department of the Navy’s only fielded and deployable 5th Generation generation fighter.” said Bryan Clark, a retired submarine officer and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute “We will want those deployed most of the time.
    “Only half of [our 10 amphibious assault ships] are able to carry F-35B and the Marines are looking to reduce their land-based squadrons. So the loss of Bonhomme Richard will impact the Navy’s ability to provide Combatant Commanders sea-based F-35s not subject to host-nation approval.”
    “It has a huge impact,” said Jerry Hendrix, a retired Navy captain and analyst with Telemus Group. “Bonhomme Richard has been in this overhaul for two years getting these upgrades to operate F-35Bs. She has about eight more years of life left in the hull, and so she was a central cog in our Pacific operational deployment plan for the next eight-to-10 years.”
    The amphibious assault ship Tripoli is slated to be commissioned this month but will have as much as two years of work ups ahead of it, Hendrix noted, adding the Bonhomme Richard was supposed to be back in the rotation after its overhaul by the end of this year.
    “This is a big hit in the Navy’s deployment plan over the next 10 years. Obviously we can’t just wave a magic wand and create another one,” Hendrix said.
    The Navy could either ask the remaining amphibious assault ships to make longer deployments or it could dip into the inactive reserve fleet and bring back a Tarawa-class LHA to back-fill the capacity.
    Bryan McGrath, a retired destroyer skipper and consultant with The Ferrybridge Group, likewise agreed that the fire would deal a blow to the Navy’s deployment plans.
    “Obviously first and foremost someone is going to have to take her commitments,” he said. “Secondly, it is going to impact the fleet introduction of the F-35B and what does this do to the timeline that the Navy and Marine Corp were on for the regularization of that aircraft going to sea on that ship?
    The fire also has implications for an ongoing effort to more closely align the Navy and Marine Corps in an effort Marine Commandant Gen. David Berger calls “naval integration,” McGrath said.
    “There is this larger question of navy and Marine Corps integration that I think may be somewhat slowed by this because of the F-35 issue.”
    The damage to the Bonhomme Richard has been extensive from stem to stern, engulfing the well deck, the super structure and the living and working spaces up forward. The forward mast has collapsed onto the superstructure and Expeditionary Strike Group Three commander Rear Adm. Phillip Sobeck told reporters Monday temperatures inside the skin of the ship have reached 1,000 degrees, a point at which steel is losing significant structural strength.
    Hendrix guessed that the heat and duration of the fire likely means the ship is lost.
    “I don’t think she’s coming back, I think she’ll be struck. I don’t think you have this intensity of heat and fire in a hull and give it a thumbs up.
    Lightning Carrier
    The Navy has been using the Wasp-class amphibious assault ships, along with the follow-on America-class, to field a lighter, dedicated F-35 carrier, or “Lightning Carriers.”
    But the idea of smaller carriers is one the Navy has been flirting with more recently. Last fall, the Navy packed 13 F-35Bs on the amphibious assault ship America. Then-Navy Secretary Spencer later said the ship could hold up to 20.
    “I will tell you, we are augmenting the aircraft carrier with our ideas, such as this lightning carrier,” Spencer said at the Brookings Institution think tank. “Twenty F-35 Bravos on a large-deck amphib. My cost performance there is tremendous. Does it have the same punch? No, it doesn’t, but it does have a very interesting sting to it.”
    The Wasp class, which is an older class of big-deck amphib, could likely pack about 15 F-35Bs if it were dedicated for the purpose, according to Clark, the Hudson Institute senior fellow.
    The idea of a lighter carrier is also one that has intrigued Defense Secretary Mark Esper. In an interview with Defense News that coincided with the fiscal 21 budget rollout, Esper raised the possibility that lighter carriers were still on the agenda.
    “There are various ways to do carriers,” Esper said. “So we can talk numbers or we can talk the sizes of carriers, right? There’s been discussion in the past about: Do you keep building big carriers, or do you go to smaller carriers, lightning carriers? Acting Secretary Modly and I have talked about that.
    “I think this gets into the future fleet designs we look at. That will be one element that we look at.”
    The Navy has shied away from lighter carriers for decades because, as expensive as the carriers are, the big supercarriers generate more sorties for less money than it would cost a comparable number of smaller carriers to generate.
    But the utility of a smaller carrier that still has a mean bite was recently demonstrated when a COVID-19 outbreak on the carrier Theodore Roosevelt sidelined the flat top in Guam in the middle of its deployment. The Navy directed the America to the South China Sea to provide presence there to dissuade China from taking advantage of the Roosevelt’s misfortune.
    That was a win for the idea of a smaller carrier, said Seth Cropsey, director of the Center for American Seapower at the Hudson Institute.
    “The ability of the America to be on scene when the Roosevelt was not was a good thing,” he said. “Look I don’t think anyone is going to argue that it replaces a Ford-class carrier, but the idea of a more distributed force is a sensible one.
    “I’m not saying that the Navy should stop building Ford-class carriers; I’m saying they should be including smaller carriers.”

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/07/13/the-bonhomme-richard-fire-deals-a-blow-to-the-navys-designs-in-the-indo-pacific/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:42 am

    So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:09 pm

    Hole wrote:So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.

    They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:26 pm

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34862/firefighters-evacuated-from-still-burning-uss-bonhomme-richard-after-it-lists-towards-pier

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/uss-bonhomme-richard-fire-signals-more-trouble-for-navy/#slide-1

    https://warontherocks.com/2020/07/more-than-just-a-fire-the-implications-of-the-bonhomme-richard-catastrophe/


    https://life.ru/p/pochti-Chernobyl
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:53 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Hole wrote:So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.

    They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?

    If the systems and training of the personel would be good they should be able to keep the fire in one section of the ship and not let it spread from stern to bow.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:38 am

    The universal landing ship LHA 7 Tripoli is part of the U.S. Navy

    July 15, 2020 at the American shipbuilding company Ingalls Shipbuilding of Huntington Ingalls Industries Corporation in Pascagula (Mississippi), a modest ceremony of the introduction of the U.S. Navy at the end of testing the universal landing ship LHA 7 Tripoli - the second ship of the type America. The "lowered" level of the ceremony was officially explained by the coronavirus pandemic, but, obviously, it was primarily associated with the moral and political effect of the ongoing devastating fire on the universal landing ship (UDC) LHD 6 Bonhomme Richard in San Diego.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4088062.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:00 pm

    “I’m not saying that the Navy should stop building Ford-class carriers; I’m saying they should be including smaller carriers.”

    What else is a Marine going to say... Smaller carriers obviously burn very well... why are they good again?

    They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?

    Yeah, but after the thing has been burning for three days you'd think they could do worse than turn on those halon systems... this is the American Navy... the one that tells everyone what to do an how to behave and act... their biggest worry is that the loss of this ship might make it harder to piss off the Chinese in waters close to China...

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:59 pm

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-navy-fire/firefighters-put-out-flames-aboard-u-s-navy-ship-in-san-diego-vessels-future-unknown-idUKKCN24H3G9

    Cheaper to reactivate & modify an old LHA/D.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:04 am

    Cheaper to reactivate & modify an old LHA/D.

    Less effective in combat yet still a big juicy target with very little actual air defence...
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:13 pm

    And poor fire protection.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:06 pm

    Their group will have extra escorts, if need be; besides, most of the time it won't be too far from a CSG &/ land based aviation.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:11 am

    So when you add the cost of all these extra escorts these ships are going to need just to do their normal tasks... makes you think a bigger better armed ship would have been better...

    Obviously no ship is invincible but if it can't look after itself it becomes a liability.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:27 am

    That's why Trump wants 300+ ship navy. The QE2 is large but still needs as many escorts. NATO navies have many surface ships anyway- escort duty is just 1 extra mission for them. In recent years the USN CVNs spent less time deployed, so their escorts r free to escort LHA/Ds instead.
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-chief-us-warships-fate-uncertain-damage-extensive

    It may be sold/given to India "as is"- they could fix it for le$$ & keep/sell it. The gov. won't get much by selling it for scrap anyway.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, link)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:11 pm

    The fire was possible sabotage by a Black sailor: 
    https://news.usni.org/2020/08/26/ncis-atf-investigating-sailor-in-uss-bonhomme-richard-fire-criminal-investigation

    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/07/25/after-the-us-navys-bonhomme-richard-catastrophe-a-far-reaching-crackdown-on-fire-safety/

    https://news.usni.org/2020/09/01/video-aerial-refueling-for-e-2ds-will-expand-reach-of-carrier-strike-groups
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:13 pm

    They are going to pin it on the black guy.... typical...

    I remember just after Desert Storm there were a couple of low flying helicopters that were detected by AWACS so two F-15s went to investigate... from 5km distant from behind so the targets wouldn't spot them... though also clearly so they couldn't spot the targets properly either, they decided they were Hinds and promptly shot them both down.

    Turns out they were Blackhawks carrying Iraqi and US officials... I believe it was the Asian guy on the AWACS who got the blame for that...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:51 am

    the USN has many problems: https://ria.ru/20201014/ssha-1579641262.html
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:02 pm

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:14 pm

    Superior western tech a work. Or rather not.

    US Navy and Naval Aircraft: News - Page 15 Eeuu_u10
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:39 am

    https://breakingdefense.com/2020/11/navy-to-congress-heres-your-f-35c-carrier-how-do-we-pay-for-it/
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    Post  Backman Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:28 pm


    Navy Will Spend Around $30 Million To Scrap Fire-Damaged USS Bonhomme Richard

    The amphibious assault ship suffered an explosion while in port earlier this year and subsequent fires raged onboard for four days.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37880/navy-will-spend-around-30-million-to-scarp-fire-damaged-uss-bonhomme-richard

    George1 likes this post

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:57 pm

    Two Navy Carriers Are About to Head Out on Grueling 'Double Pump' Deployments

    US Coast Guard Won't 'Close the Door' on Hunting Submarines Again in the Future
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    Post  George1 Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:11 am

    White House to Propose Massive Shipbuilding Plan That Trades Carriers for Smaller Warships - Report
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:04 am

    Excellent.... the bigger US carriers remain dangerous because they could carry F-22 performance level fighters if the US ever bothered to develop such a thing.

    Reducing performance down to F-35 severely weakened them, but going for smaller ships will make things much much worse.... they will become much easier to take on and defeat even by smaller nations now...

    If large numbers of smaller ships was really the solution then the US would fear the Iranian navy much more than it currently does...
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    Post  LMFS Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:19 am

    Reading the headline one would thing they are actually performing a great doctrinal shift away from carriers, the only thing the plan says is not to build the fifth Ford unit, or not yet, since we have seen this kind of US fake budgetary discussion before. A big no news. Rolling Eyes

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