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    Type 075 landing helicopter dock (LHD)

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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:38 am

    Isos wrote:6 different carriers. That will be a mess to use.

    More like 3 really. 001 and 002 are basicly the same type with minor changes.
    Type 003 will be single class with several systems being tested before moving on to CVN.
    Type 004 to 006 would probably be one class with small updates between each ship.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 am

    Wouldn't matter if each carrier was unique... the crews don't swap between them every other week... their crews will train and learn on one ship and there will be several crews for each carrier.

    Most of the systems will not be that different and it will take time to learn the layout of the ship anyway.

    One presumes each different carrier will be based on what was learned from other carriers they had, so their new build ones should be better suited, but who knows.

    For different roles each might be more or less suited to a particular job... it is really a question of the upper level Navy planning staff understanding the features and capabilities and limitations of all their ships and how to use them well that will matter.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:39 am

    That means the carrier groups won't have the same strenght or tactics used. If they loose one and replace it with another one that won't be an effective carrier group.

    Imagine replacing a gorshkov frigate with a steregoushchy corvette.

    Crews can learn from each other and master the carrier perfectly if they have just one class. Wheb one is at tge shipyard its crew can't train on an other clasd too.

    In terms of maintainence it will be also more difficult.
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 on Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:39 pm

    Isos wrote:That means the carrier groups won't have the same strenght or tactics used. If they loose one and replace it with another one that won't be an effective carrier group.

    Imagine replacing a gorshkov frigate with a steregoushchy corvette.

    Crews can learn from each other and master the carrier perfectly if they have just one class. Wheb one is at tge shipyard its crew can't train on an other clasd too.

    In terms of maintainence it will be also more difficult.

    Well it is what it is. They started thier way from the Kuznetsov class and are taking new steps with very ship.
    By 2040-2045 the first 2 ships should have been replaced and the carrier fleet should look more like the US navy.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:28 pm

    Carriers are quite outdated today even against poor countries which have chances to destroy them.

    In 2040 it will be worst. I doubt Chiba will build more than 5 of them.
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 on Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:05 pm

    Isos wrote:Carriers are quite outdated today even against poor countries which have chances to destroy them.

    In 2040 it will be worst. I doubt Chiba will build more than 5 of them.

    Dont see many poor countries around the world sinking us carriers, or even trying, today.

    The future will tell.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:26 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Carriers are quite outdated today even against poor countries which have chances to destroy them.

    In 2040 it will be worst. I doubt Chiba will build more than 5 of them.

    Dont see many poor countries around the world sinking us carriers, or even trying, today.

    The future will tell.

    Hezbollah used a missile to strike an israeli ship. Houti used also anti ship missiles. Iran is producibg BM for use against carriers. Drones are heavily produced and use and could be used to damage a carrier.

    It's just a matter of time before they get sold everywhere.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:03 am

    That means the carrier groups won't have the same strenght or tactics used. If they loose one and replace it with another one that won't be an effective carrier group.

    Imagine replacing a gorshkov frigate with a steregoushchy corvette.

    Crews can learn from each other and master the carrier perfectly if they have just one class. Wheb one is at tge shipyard its crew can't train on an other clasd too.

    In terms of maintainence it will be also more difficult.

    You could turn that around and say if all their carriers are identical then a design flaw will effect all ships in combat.

    If they have a problem with a stronger newer carrier and have to replace it with an older one.... they are China... not the self appointed world police... if their best carrier can't make it they can send two or even three of their slightly less good carriers to take its place...

    It really depends on the situation, and having different carriers makes them more flexible... replacing a frigate with a corvette might actually be a good idea for some missions and roles, but if it isn't as good then send two or three corvettes for the job...

    By 2040-2045 the first 2 ships should have been replaced and the carrier fleet should look more like the US navy.

    I hope not. I hope it is much better organised and equipped... Razz

    Carriers are quite outdated today even against poor countries which have chances to destroy them.

    Carriers provide capacity and capability that not having carriers can't match. If they are outdated then why do any countries have them?

    Why do countries buy tanks... anti tank missiles have been around for a very long time and some of them are excellent... in fact a 500kg laser guided bomb will be stopped by no APS or ERA or composite armour so why aren't tanks obsolete? Most air forces have LGBs.

    The fundamental problem is that to support troops an armoured vehicle with a big gun is useful, whether it is destroying bunkers or buildings with direct heavy calibre fire or the equivalent big gun armed enemy vehicle. So you get a vehicle chassis and you put a big gun in a turret... it needs armour... which makes it heavier than an BTR or BMP so it needs a bigger engine... and so you look at what new magical vehicle you have created to replace the tank and you have.... a tank.

    At sea the problems are that the enemy can sneak attack you because if all your ships blase away with radar looking for low flying threats the enemy can quickly determine your location and set up an ambush while keeping out of your line of sight... without aircraft and limited to helicopter based AEW the enemy attack will get rather close to you before you spot what is happening leaving you less time to defend yourself and making you much more vulnerable to smaller weaker countries.

    A decent sized aircraft carrier with proper AWACS platforms and decent fighters able to operate over useful distances are much safer and much more aware of the waters and air space and undersea space around them and therefore less likely to be surprised and defeated.

    By one missile or by 1,000.

    The current difference is that Kinzhal is based on the Iskander and is designed to evade enemy air defences and fly at enormous speeds to hit a target... even just launching one has a reasonable chance of getting through modern US carrier air defences and getting a hit which would cripple most ships.... not sink them necessarily but they will be limping back to base and not continuing operations.

    For the Americans their Harpoons and Tomahawks are only really dangerous if they are not seen... which is why they are pretending Russia does not need an aircraft carrier at all because they are obsolete. A modern new Russian surface action group with new design ships will be very well protected from enemy missile and aircraft attack, but having a carrier just adds depth and capability to those defences and means greater sight and reach.... for the US to defeat a Russian group of ships they will be planning to launch thousands of missiles, which means large numbers of platforms needing to coordinate their launches and positions to ensure it all arrives at once... having aircraft and being able to roam around the battle space at perhaps mach 1.5 means a Russian or Chinese carrier group is more likely to detect this mass of missiles in flight and the earlier they are detected the sooner you can start picking them off.

    24 aircraft does not sound like a lot but if you can have 2-4 flying around all the time and can send 24 fighters towards a large mass of incoming Tomahawks and perhaps another 24 in other directions looking for stealthy missiles on a sneak attack from a flank or the rear... those 24 planes can shoot down a significant number of incoming missiles with missiles and cannon fire, and can also monitor the remaining missiles so ship based long range SAMs can be launched early to start taking down numbers of missiles too.

    Hezbollah used a missile to strike an israeli ship. Houti used also anti ship missiles. Iran is producibg BM for use against carriers. Drones are heavily produced and use and could be used to damage a carrier.

    It's just a matter of time before they get sold everywhere.

    Such threats could sink any type of ship, but a carrier could be used to bring your own drones and missiles in large numbers too.... the point is that when it comes to drones and anti ship missiles the most vulnerable ship is not the biggest... the most vulnerable ship is the smallest ship operating on its own without support and unaware it is even under attack until it is too late.

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