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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun May 31, 2015 10:59 pm

    Book. wrote:I think Yak 141 it nice. but dream  Cool

    We share the same dream then. Yak141 seem to have characteristics not far from F-35... with modern electronics who knows? Ideal IMHO as deck fighter for carriers or cruisers with air wings of light tactical fighter. why not?

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Yak141f
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    Post  mutantsushi Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:40 am

    Well that is the sort of forced development of niche platforms that wouldn't otherwise be needed, that I meant earlier.
    As far as AEW/ASW provide reason for carrier, I don't think they really do, given 24hr+ duration VTOL platforms in development NOW (by US).
    If fast jet carrier aviation itself is considered necessary, then so it is, but then I wonder if boutique CATOBAR AEW/ASW platform would still
    be worthwhile to develop for the, what, 2-3 carriers Russia would concievably field?  Instead, long duration VTOL platforms which could
    also launch/land on non-carrier assets, e.g. destroyers, would be an investment that pays off across RU's entire fleet, rather than just carriers.
    Of course, similar mission systems could be installed on both fixed wing CATOBAR platforms and VTOL operable from destroyers etc.

    Regardless, these hypothetical carrier wings using current platforms are stand ins, a 2030 carrier would have a replacement to Ka-31, for one.
    (likely the hybrid/pusher helicopter supposedly both Kamov and Mil are collaborating on, faster but also longer range)
    I wouldn't worry about engines in Ka-62 by then either.  Couldn't HAL export the Ardiden/Shaktis to Russia without provoking EU sanctions anyways?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:32 pm

    I would be much happier if it was all MiG LMFS, some Su-25TM and some Ka-62s instead of Ka-32s.

    The Su-25 on board the carriers is a trainer because there are no two seat Su-33s... if you did have LMFS then a training Su-25 would make more sense.

    Ka-62 are light helos with capacity for 6-8 troops.

    Ka-32 can carry 16 troops in the Ka-29 troop transport version and is a much bigger much more powerful helo...

    Wasn´t navalized PAK FA to replace Su-33 and MiG-29K.

    Potentially...

    Yak-44M ? Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Affraid again Shoigu wants to restart production?

    AWACS aircraft... pencil in your own designation for a new model (I did put Yak-44M)

    VSTOL aircraft risk smaller less capable carriers... if they plan to have 100 aircraft then it should be big enough for PAK FA and MiG-29K... both of which should be more capable than Yak-141 except in take off length and landing length...
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:02 pm

    Shocked
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:14 pm

    I prefer helo AWACS than fixed wing AWACS... because a smaller helo can carry a bigger radar than fixed winger.

    Unless Yak-44 will be some sort of AESA which enable it to put a big radar on aerodynamic surface like T-50.
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    Post  medo Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:21 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Book. wrote:I think Yak 141 it nice. but dream  Cool

    We share the same dream then. Yak141 seem to have characteristics not far from F-35... with modern electronics who knows? Ideal IMHO as deck fighter for carriers or cruisers with air wings of light tactical fighter. why not?

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Yak141f

    Yak-141 would be also ideal for exposed Arctic bases, where they could not build whole airfields, but they could build smaller concrete heliports, from where Yak-141 could operate. It is no worse fighter than JF-17 or Tejas.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Wasn´t navalized PAK FA to replace Su-33 and MiG-29K.
    Potentially...

    The Navy plans to use Russian on the future of the new Russian aircraft carrier deck version of the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA project), said Saturday on Radio "Echo of Moscow" Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy weapons, Rear Admiral Victor Bursuc.

    and

    "The development of of the aircraft fleet there was envisaged by the program of shipbuilding. This is - deck fighters Su and MiG. In planning there is a further development of T-50 (in a deck version)" - said Rear Adm.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141025/1030053844.html


    tongue

    PAK FA needs take off field ~350m depending on source, with no catapult or ski-jump
    F-18 Supa Hornet 1345ft ~410m

    As for me not bad for candidate. If Russians decide to build 2-4 medium ACS (IMHO much better then 1 supa) say Charles de Gaulle size T-50 would constitute a nice fighter wing.

    F-18 Supa Hornet take off field length





    GarryB wrote:
    Yak-44M ? Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Affraid again Shoigu wants to restart production?

    AWACS aircraft... pencil in your own designation for a new model (I did put Yak-44M)

    VSTOL aircraft risk smaller less capable carriers... if they plan to have 100 aircraft then it should be big enough for PAK FA and MiG-29K... both of which should be more capable than Yak-141 except in take off length and landing length...


    One big AC is more risk you loose all what you have after one strike and you cannot cannot be in more than one theater at the time. 2-3-4 medium can. Besides V/STOL can keep niche not only for ACs also for Helo Carriers if needed.
    Or even mistral size.
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    Post  George1 Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:39 am

    Russia developing $5 bln aircraft carrier with no world analogs — fleet commander

    Its development will take about ten years but there are no technical specifications for a ship of this class so far

    MOSCOW, June 1. /TASS/. Russia’s defense and industrial sector is developing a promising aircraft carrier for the Navy worth up to $5.6 billion, which has no analogs in the world, Northern Fleet Commander, Admiral Vladimir Korolyov said on Monday.

    The new aircraft carrier will enable the Russian Navy to operate more effectively, the admiral said, referring to the developments by the Krylov Research State Center in St. Petersburg but gave no estimates for the new ship.

    The center’s developments are known under the codename Project 23000E Storm.

    "Considering that the Northern Fleet forces perform a great variety of missions in the distant Oceanic zone, the presence of an aircraft carrier in the fleet in the future will help address these tasks more effectively," the admiral said.

    Currently, the Admiral Kuznetsov heavy aircraft carrier bears the main load for the practical drills of deck-based aircraft, the commander said.

    ‘In a perspective, however, we should have a full-fledged aircraft carrier complex in our fleet surpassing world analogs by its characteristics. This is required by new challenges and threats emerging in the world," the admiral said.

    "If we speak about what kind of an aircraft carrier the fleet needs, this should be a ship corresponding to the requirements of tomorrow rather than of today," the Northern Fleet commander said.

    Nevskoye Design Bureau Head Sergei Vlasov told Tass news agency the promising aircraft carrier might cost from $1.8 billion to $5.63 billion at the current ruble/dollar exchange rate.

    Its development will take about ten years. However, there are no technical specifications for a ship of this class so far, Vlasov said.

    Nevertheless, aircraft carriers have been included in Russia’s shipbuilding program until 2050.

    The Nevskoye Design Bureau, which is Russia’s sole aircraft carrier designer, is carrying out preparatory works on this project.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:05 am

    So far i have only heard about constructing one aircraft carrier, is there a possibility that there will be constructed more?
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:21 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:So far i have only heard about constructing one aircraft carrier, is there a possibility that there will be constructed more?

    They will be when needed. After all the backbone of Russian naval combat is cruise missile ships, not aircraft carrier. The number of Russian aircraft carriers probably should not be too many.

    But of course, we can say the cruise missiles are some sort of suicide UAVs... and so the Kirov, Slava, Tu-xx, Su-xx are some sort of aircraft carriers...
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    Post  RedJasmin Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:55 pm

    Hiya. It's my first post here, but I've been following the sorry saga that is the "new carrier" programme for a while.

    I honestly don't think the programme is going anywhere at the moment and won't until the RuNavy really sits down with the other forces and the gov't and thrashes out exactly what their role is.

    As an article on the Moscow Times ("Russia Wants an Aircraft Supercarrier, But Can It Build One?") discussed, the way carriers are being talked about in Russia now is very different to their historical role as ASW and fleet defence platforms. Current thinking with 100-aircraft capacity seems to be less about a new doctrine, and more about "The Americans have got them, so we should too".

    The well known problem, as the article agrees, is that large carrier construction (>60,000ton) during the Soviet era was undertaken in Ukraine. The only Russian yard with any carrier experience whatsoever is Sevmash, which doesn't have the facilities for construction of supercarriers.

    With that in mind I think any Russian ambition of getting a supercarrier built before the Kuznetsov starts attracting archaeologists is... optimistic at best. But the problem with the Kuznetsov is primarily it's state of decay and solitary nature rather than it's size.

    So if big carriers are a problem and the state of the Kuznetsov makes it urgent.. How about building new carriers that actually answers Russia's specific security issues rather than being the biggest and bestest everest?

    A Russian carrier fleet needs to be able to engage in anti-submarine and air defence activities of the fleet, including providing air cover to amphibious operations, all of which the Kuznetsov can do. Some degree of global force projection of the supercarrier variety is useful as a strategic ability, but no current or foreseeable scenarios genuinely necessitate it.  

    Sticking to what Russia needs rather than what she is want gives us the possibility for an achievable carrier programme that can guarantee the future of a blue-water Russian navy, *and it already exists*. Essentially a Kuznetsov II class carrier. Using an existing design saves time and money - neither of which Russia is blessed with an abundance of. Modifications could be made to provide a more capable and reliable platform within the basics of the existing design, much as the Kuznetsov itself is a more capable Kiev design.

    * Swap conventional propulsion for two KN-3 reactors rather than design new, tried and tested from the Kirov class. Much more reliable, and greater range.

    * Steam catapults. The existing designs from the Ulyanovsk can be used/modified, saving time and cost. Greater aircraft flexibility from an existing hull design.

    * Delete the P-700s to manage costs and complexity.

    * Obviously, going with the latest design versions of sensor suites, using those of the Gorshkov class frigates where possible.

    * Focus on operating drones alongside traditional aircraft. More drones can be carried in a given area than conventional aircraft and can loiter/patrol for longer. Drones allow a smaller carrier to do more.

    * Realistically, only three hulls need be built for a viable fleet. One each for the Pacific and Northern fleets, with the third a reserve "floater", assigned to either fleet as needed to cover maintinance or a crisis event.

    Ideally, an additional ship could be completed for the Black Sea fleet, and the Kuznetsov herself fully overhauled (and perhaps upgraded to Kuz. II specification) to serve as additional floater. This would give each fleet one active carrier at all times, with any one fleet being able to operate up to three active carriers for a limited time, without sacrificing cover elsewhere.

    By keeping these carriers smaller and based on existing technology the project becomes possible - still expensive and demanding - but possible rather than pie-in-the-sky. Three or four new Kuznetsov size ships can guarantee a true blue-water capability that can meaningfully defend Russian interests much better than a paper drawing of a 100 plane, 120,000 ton carrier can. It makes the most use of existing designs, technologies and shipyards - and demands little new/clean-sheet development - so resources go straight into the ships (and aircraft) themselves.

    Another advantage is that though the Kuznetsov design has issues, these are already known. Essentially the Kuznetsov can be treated long serving design prototype to identify faults and teething problems that the new design can mostly avoid. Whilst the changes to the design for the new class would doubtlessly introduce new issues, they will be far fewer in number than a completely new design where the number of unknowns is far, far greater.

    Given that evolutionary designs are something of a tradition in Russia dating right back to the Soviet era, it seems interesting that the idea isn't currently being currently considered given the state of the Russian navy. Any thoughts/ideas?
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    Post  mutantsushi Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:39 am

    Well, as far as ASW/AWACS, I think innovative VTOL platforms can achieve long endurance/ high altitude equivalent to CATOBAR platforms.
    The cost of a carrier fleet dev/construction/operation, + that of unique CATOBAR platforms, will be much more than going with new VTOL platforms.
    I would agree that strike carrier is not needed by Russia, and on this basis doubt the need for this at all.
    All that is left is fleet defence CATOBAR jets.  I honestly feel that taking all the huge amount of money needed for full strike carrier + platforms,
    and putting it in more VTOL support platforms that can be organically spread across the rest of the fleet, along with SAMs, can achieve same effect,
    likely at lesser cost, and also less risk by not depending on single point of failure (carrier) that itself necessitates resources to protect it etc.
    The only pro I see towards a carrier is if Russia can split the dev/production costs by sharing design with another country = China, Brazil?
    Although honestly, even including associated air platforms in the deal, that will just be a very small cost decrease in the larger scheme.
    As far as your proposals go, I dont think the cost savings from going with Kuznetsov II really compare to the larger scheme of things,
    and if Russia is going to go forward with all the costs of a carrier, having carrier strike aviation is a decent capability to have in the package.
    I would assume Russia would want to leverage ToT from Mistral and do a modular/block construction approach, as the British carrier is made...
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:43 pm

    I honestly don't think the programme is going anywhere at the moment and won't until the RuNavy really sits down with the other forces and the gov't and thrashes out exactly what their role is.

    Even if they could wave a magic wand right now and have a brand new carrier of their choice ready for service there would be no point. they need to upgrade their navy and their support and infrastructure before they could even consider properly operating a new carrier.

    Plans are for the mid 2020s onwards for production... that is more realistic.


    Current thinking with 100-aircraft capacity seems to be less about a new doctrine, and more about "The Americans have got them, so we should too".

    Nah, these wont be strike carriers like the US has, these will be air defence carriers... some of those aircraft will be UAVs.

    The well known problem, as the article agrees, is that large carrier construction (>60,000ton) during the Soviet era was undertaken in Ukraine. The only Russian yard with any carrier experience whatsoever is Sevmash, which doesn't have the facilities for construction of supercarriers.

    they are building and upgrading their shipyards all the time... there is one being built by the South Koreans in the Russian far east that will produce super tankers that should be able to handle large ships.

    So if big carriers are a problem and the state of the Kuznetsov makes it urgent.. How about building new carriers that actually answers Russia's specific security issues rather than being the biggest and bestest everest?

    The plans I have seen mention nothing about being the biggest... 60-70K ton at most.

    Modifications could be made to provide a more capable and reliable platform within the basics of the existing design, much as the Kuznetsov itself is a more capable Kiev design.

    New Russian vessels have standardisation at their core, it makes no sense to design a new vessel based on an existing vessel... especially when the new vessel wont enter service for another 15 years or so... there is plenty of time to design and develop.

    * Swap conventional propulsion for two KN-3 reactors rather than design new, tried and tested from the Kirov class. Much more reliable, and greater range.

    They have spent a lot of money and time developing new compact and powerful nuclear reactors for their new icebreakers and other large vessels.... they might want to use those.

    * Steam catapults. The existing designs from the Ulyanovsk can be used/modified, saving time and cost. Greater aircraft flexibility from an existing hull design.

    they have never had operational steam catapults, so it makes no sense to design some now.

    EM catapults have a range of advantages over steam cats so why invent a flintlock when the percussion cap is already there...

    * Delete the P-700s to manage costs and complexity.

    A new carrier will likely have a few UKSK launchers... even just for land attack cruise missiles and anti sub weapons.

    * Obviously, going with the latest design versions of sensor suites, using those of the Gorshkov class frigates where possible.

    I suspect there will be a large cruiser sized sensor suite that can be used on carriers...

    * Focus on operating drones alongside traditional aircraft. More drones can be carried in a given area than conventional aircraft and can loiter/patrol for longer. Drones allow a smaller carrier to do more.

    I suspect both surface, underwater, and aerial drones will be carried and operated.

    * Realistically, only three hulls need be built for a viable fleet. One each for the Pacific and Northern fleets, with the third a reserve "floater", assigned to either fleet as needed to cover maintinance or a crisis event.

    An aircraft carrier has three states... operational, in dock getting upgrades, and training. With two ships you can guarantee at least one ship will be available by never having both vessels in dock at the same time, but with one... if it is in dry dock with its knickers around its ankles and something happens you wont be able to get it into service quickly.... with two the other vessel will either be in training or operational and ready... ideally you have three carriers with each in one state, so in an emergency you have two ships available.

    Given that evolutionary designs are something of a tradition in Russia dating right back to the Soviet era, it seems interesting that the idea isn't currently being currently considered given the state of the Russian navy. Any thoughts/ideas?

    they have gained a lot of experience with the K, why not put that to good use in developing a new replacement?

    The Russian Navy doesn't need some strike force... they aren't trying to get the capability to attack anyone, what they want is the equivalent to the Russian air force... if the Russian Navy don't need carriers then the Russian army doesn't need an air force. It does and they do, but the Russian Navy will benefit from having air protection and eyes in the sky including manned and unmanned aircraft... with every ship carrying a UKSK launcher then long range land attack and anti ship attack can be performed by missiles from ships and subs... they don't need big heavy strike carriers like the US... some 60-70K ton carriers will be fine.
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    Post  mack8 Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:12 pm

    Armya-2015, "Shkval" carrier:
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/930616.html
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6846
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6845
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6843
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    Post  Flanky Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:40 pm

    mack8 wrote:Armya-2015, "Shkval" carrier:
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/930616.html
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6846
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6845
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6843

    If they are able to build atleast four of these... 2 per each oceangoing fleet.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:01 pm

    Flanky wrote: If they are able to build atleast four of these... 2 per each oceangoing fleet.

    and if Russia will return to 7% GDP growth per year then 1 for Baltic and one Caspian Fleets Smile

    All deck fighters here look like PAK-FA no wonder that no export of those birds on horizon Smile BTW PAK FA take-off strip is about 350metersv-same as F-18 Hornet...
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    Post  Flanky Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:18 pm

    Well i believe that Baltic and Black seas are basically ponds... there isn't much of a need to have carriers there as you can reach all the region from Russian mainland by air. Tankers could provie enough of endurance extention when it comes to fuel. These are not very "hot" regions anyway... wxcept for Meditarranean where Black sea is close-by...
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:41 pm

    mack8 wrote:Armya-2015, "Shkval" carrier:
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/930616.html
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 DSC_6846

    There's A LOT of real estate on this thing. Are they sure this makes sense money-wise? How much time and money would it take to get this thing built and maintained?
    Wouldn't several smaller carriers make more sense today instead of just couple of these behemoths?
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    Post  wilhelm Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:36 pm

    Flanky wrote:Well i believe that Baltic and Black seas are basically ponds... there isn't much of a need to have carriers there as you can reach all the region from Russian mainland by air. Tankers could provie enough of endurance extention when it comes to fuel. These are not very "hot" regions anyway... wxcept for Meditarranean where Black sea is close-by...

    Exactly.

    Large carriers are for large oceans.

    No need to deploy them into seas that may be covered in their entirety by land-based aircraft and missiles.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:28 pm

    They wouldn't need really big carriers like US carriers.

    US carriers are strike carriers designed to project power an to invade.

    What the Russian Navy needs is an air component that allows air cover and air search capabilities to protect the naval vessels it operates.

    This means anti sub and air defence.

    60K to 70K ton max should be fine with nuclear propulsion reducing the refuelling requirements of the vessel... obviously it would still need tanker support for the aviation fuel.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:56 pm

    Flanky wrote:Well i believe that Baltic and Black seas are basically ponds... there isn't much of a need to have carriers there as you can reach all the region from Russian mainland by air. Tankers could provie enough of endurance extention when it comes to fuel. These are not very "hot" regions anyway... wxcept for Meditarranean where Black sea is close-by...


    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarcasm Smile

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:They wouldn't need really big carriers like US carriers.

    US carriers are strike carriers designed to project power an to invade.

    What the Russian Navy needs is an air component that allows air cover and air search capabilities to protect the naval vessels it operates.

    This means anti sub and air defence.

    60K to 70K ton max should be fine with nuclear propulsion reducing the refuelling requirements of the vessel... obviously it would still need tanker support for the aviation fuel.

    Since for some time there is continuous discussion about large disp.placements I presume then 1-2 large (for war on antipodes but not NZ Smile and couple smaller (like Avalnche ) that can be used as Amphibious Assault Carriers - so transport troops or no troops as ASW helo carrier with larger air-wing. BTW Japanese Izumo is more less size of Avalanche ...and a Korean Dok-Do a bit smaller but still has air-wing of 10 helos. On top possibility to also carry VSTOL planes
    PapaDragon
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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:21 pm


    Tech sheet for Aircraft Carrier Project 23000E. Ship's layout is different than the scale models:

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 0_123cb2_c2b7a412_XL

    http://twower.livejournal.com/1700670.html
    2SPOOKY4U
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:22 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tech sheet for Aircraft Carrier Project 23000E. Ship's layout is different than the scale models:

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 0_123cb2_c2b7a412_XL

    http://twower.livejournal.com/1700670.html

    Translation:

    Multi(can't see the rest of the word) Aircraft Carrier Project 23000E

    Assignments of Ship:

    Destruction of land and sea targets, security of ship convoys, protection of sea marines by air.

    Displacement: 100,000 Tons
    Dimensions:

    Length: 330 meters(?)
    Width: 40 meters
    Tower: 11 meters
    Speed at full pace: 28 knots
    Autonomous operation: 120 days max
    GEY, limited fuel
    Weapon Armaments:
    4 modules of anti-aircraft systems
    2 launchers of torpedo protection units
    Flying object of miscellaneous function: 80-90
    Radiotechnical, ESBY, Operational Tactical Level, Multifunctional Intergration PLS, Integration Subsystem PEB, Integrated System Communication

    Aviation-Technical Resources of Ship

    (Trampoline)<--wtf? Catapult: 2
    Electromagnetic Acceleration Device: 2
    AviaFinisher(Landing strip): 1

    Information about developers:
    none
    avatar
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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1 - Page 18 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  wilhelm Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:45 am

    Some beautiful looking models/designs there...thanks.
    Interesting that the spec sheet for the carrier only shows one tower or island.

    Also interesting to see that electromagnetic catapults get a mention, which means they are at least in consideration.
    Seeing as it is placed next to the catapult or acceleration devices, maybe what the translation for "trampoline" really means is arresting gear or arrestors?

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