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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:32 pm

    That is my point.
    Of course it would have been considered as an act of war, or piracy at least as they would have to seize the ship first.
    But it is an open question to me, and that is why I think about it Laughing
    Sure, then can travel Sevastopol-Latakia all year long, and give a shit about anything, releasing some other vessel to do the job in some other places.

    Still, there is tons of gear looted in different conflicts, and seems no one really cares about it. Georgian stuff like  T-72SIM and HMVEEs is the first that comes to my mind.
    The only reason Russian discussed the return of Ukrainian stuff from Crimea was to get a better publicity/image, and because all of t hem presented a scrap metal value.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:06 am

    Turkey may prevent it out of the black sea as part of the sanctions. They don't consider it as russian but ukrainian.

    It is not their job to determine ownership of transiting ships.

    Interestingly with new 57mm ammo being developed its gun armament has become rather more capable and useful...

    This is why I consider its legal status.
    A trophy? A war prey? Laughing
    Probably nothing will happen, those are not 90s anymore

    Abandoned equipment not in working order.

    But if that ship goes into the waters of a country that doesn't recognize Crimea as part of Russia for exemple after an accident and has to go there, it won't be given back to Russia but to Ukraine.

    It is an armed ship manned by Russian sailors.... are they going to order them to sail to a Ukrainian port?

    Well obviously the solution would be for them to promise on their mothers grave to sail immediately to a Ukrainian port... Sevastopol perhaps? I mean if that country does not recognise Crimea as being Russia then any port in the Crimea would do wouldn't it?

    And if we are going to get pissy about ownership how about all the helicopter engines and ship engines the Russians paid for but did not get delivered... perhaps with the Mistral the Russians should have just mounted a special forces attack on the CdG... lets not be silly...

    That ship was ukrinian and was never given by ukraine so it's a stolen ship.

    Abandoned and not in working order.

    The only reason Russian discussed the return of Ukrainian stuff from Crimea was to get a better publicity/image, and because all of t hem presented a scrap metal value.

    They did, which means the Ukraine clearly did not choose to take ownership of the vessel, so it is abandoned.

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:12 am

    This is a theoretical discussion at best

    But really just a mind-exercise

    It's not in any way reflective of reality. Any attempt to board and seize a Russian naval vessel would be an act of war. End of

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:57 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They did, which means the Ukraine clearly did not choose to take ownership of the vessel, so it is abandoned.


    Well, it was a bit more complicated.
    Ukraine had no assets to tug the remains of a "fleet", as those were non-operational and in a miserable shape.
    One of the best comments that time was "the only way to get those pieces of junk moving is to get some paddles and start rowing" Laughing
    Russia seized more than 50 ships, most of them being auxiliary. That should put the thing to a proper perspective, too.
    There was an agreement signed in April 2014 for the condition of ships' return, and most of them have been returned - officially.
    Only 15 or so remained because Russia suspended its return due to Donbas conflict escalation in 2016.
    Not much changed by now I guess scratch
    What is interesting, that it is very hard to find any precise information on what has been actually returned, for example, a 775 Konstantin Olshansky was supposed to be returned back in 2014, and that has actually been reported.
    As we witness, it has not been.
    I guess the best we have is simply ask someone who is there on the ground, like auslander.
    And there is a much more desired hulk in their hands, that is command ship Slavutych - a big fish that was almost new (for the UkrNavy standard Laughing ) when 2014 happened.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:42 am

    It is not their job to determine ownership of transiting ships

    If Ukraine officially sue Russia over that shop, it won't go any day from the black sea.

    perhaps with the Mistral the Russians should have just mounted a special forces attack on the CdG... lets not be silly...

    No they ask money back and got it.

    Abandoned equipment not in working order.

    Still Ukrainian... Russia has no right over Ukrainian ships even if they are abandoned

    They did, which means the Ukraine clearly did not choose to take ownership of the vessel, so it is abandoned.

    I doubt Ukrinian agreed to give a ship to Russia during the crimean crisis.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:57 am

    Isos wrote:

    Still Ukrainian... Russia has no right over Ukrainian ships even if they are abandoned  

    I would not be so sure about that, as there are civil laws in every country that regulates the status of abandoned possession scratch
    As f_p mentioned, it is a brain exercise only, still interesting.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:24 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    Still Ukrainian... Russia has no right over Ukrainian ships even if they are abandoned  

    I would not be so sure about that, as there are civil laws in every country that regulates the status of abandoned possession scratch
    As f_p mentioned, it is a brain exercise only, still interesting.

    Well, they weren't abandoned they were seized there is a difference. Russian naval troops seized the base and didn't let anything go. Not like the Ukies went "you can have this" it was "So here is the deal, we are taking over the base and all your ships are staying right here". When you seize a base you are seizing everything around and in at the same time.

    If my memory is correct didn't Russia blockade the port entrance also?.

    I realize fanboys will try to argue otherwise but hey that's fanboys.
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    WOW! 8 UKSK (64 cells) is massive strike power for a warship, even more firepower than Arleigh Burke-class. So project 22350M will be Russias new destroyer.

    We can't be sure that these are not just heavy frigates... corvettes are getting bigger and clearly frigates are too, but I rather suspect their Destroyers will be impressive... as will any new cruisers they lay down.

    The 22350 "frigates" are classified as a 1st rank ship, this is a destroyer or "ship of the line" not a frigate, using the common and NATO classification.

    22380-22385 are 2nd rank ships, commanded by a frigate captain and according to common NATO classification it is a light frigate

    the "new names" call "corvette" to the frigates, they call "frigates" to the destroyers , and the new Lider "destroyers" with 20,000 tons will actually be battlecruisers

    It can also be seen that the modernized destroyer Udaloy has been reclassified as a "frigate" with 8000 tonnes....
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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:50 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:What makes me wonder, is the official status of this ship scratch
    If there are some issues behind it, this ship would be useful only for own ports transportation, or really close allies like Syria, or strong partners like China etc.
    In any other port, it could have been registered.
    We'll see.

    It's a military ship, no registration needed plus it would only be used in friendly ports anyway

    The Ukraine is free to try to seize it back, it would be interesting to watch

    Turkey may prevent it out of the black sea as part of the sanctions. They don't consider it as russian but ukrainian.


    Turkey will not do anything because it is an Anglo-American thing to bother Russia. 
    The ship could be transferred to the Pacific Fleet, no Asian nation is going to care about the problems of Russia and Ukraine.

    Also in the Pacific Fleet there are only three pr.775 Rapucha and one old Alligator pr-1171, which needs replacement, sending the previous Ukrainian ship there may be the best option.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:50 am

    AMCXXL wrote:Turkey will not do anything because it is an Anglo-American thing to bother Russia.
    The ship could be transferred to the Pacific Fleet, no Asian nation is going to care about the problems of Russia and Ukraine.

    Also in the Pacific Fleet there are only three pr.775 Rapucha and one old Alligator pr-1171, which needs replacement, sending the previous Ukrainian ship there may be the best option.

    Even if it stays in the Black Sea, that is fine too.  It will simply be ear-marked for the future amphibious landings to liberate Kherson or Odessa when the time finally comes to stick a dagger through the heart of the Ukro-nazi Banderite scum and tear their corrupt despotic feudal state down around their ears Twisted Evil
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:27 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    AMCXXL wrote:Turkey will not do anything because it is an Anglo-American thing to bother Russia.
    The ship could be transferred to the Pacific Fleet, no Asian nation is going to care about the problems of Russia and Ukraine.

    Also in the Pacific Fleet there are only three pr.775 Rapucha and one old Alligator pr-1171, which needs replacement, sending the previous Ukrainian ship there may be the best option.

    Even if it stays in the Black Sea, that is fine too.  It will simply be ear-marked for the future amphibious landings to liberate Kherson or Odessa when the time finally comes to stick a dagger through the heart of the Ukro-nazi Banderite scum and tear their corrupt despotic feudal state down around their ears Twisted Evil


    Well, actually the function in Russia of these Amphibious Tank Transport (LST) ships is not Normandy or Incheon-style landing.

    that's a thing of the past, and from Anglo-American militarist propaganda movies

    Russia has a good number of LCUs for this mission.
    Furthermore, Russia has no intention of attacking Ukraine, in that case it will have done so in 2014 with the armed Russian-speaking population and waiting for the Soviet Army to crush the Nazis.

    The Black Sea Fleet also has three old pr-1171 Alligators that could be replaced by a pair of pr-775 Ra-hoods from the Northern Fleet that have already received two of the Iven Gren pr class. 11711
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:52 pm

    Russia seized more than 50 ships, most of them being auxiliary. That should put the thing to a proper perspective, too.
    There was an agreement signed in April 2014 for the condition of ships' return, and most of them have been returned - officially.
    Only 15 or so remained because Russia suspended its return due to Donbas conflict escalation in 2016.
    Not much changed by now I guess

    Well even if the return was suspended they are hardly going to then complete a ship the Ukraine wanted back, because suspending for bad behaviour needs to be able to be reversed for good behaviour.

    That suggests to me they didn't want them back because they had no capacity or money to get them working again and even if they did get them operational it is not a vessel useful to them, which means selling it for scrap prices.

    If Ukraine officially sue Russia over that shop, it won't go any day from the black sea.

    Why? It will be manned by armed Russian sailors.... who would try to take it?

    The British?

    Still Ukrainian... Russia has no right over Ukrainian ships even if they are abandoned

    Might makes right. Plenty of Russian assets and products seized in Ukraine... not to mention Ukrainians murdered by Kiev... maybe Russia can give the ship to the Donbass region... they can sell it back to Russia... Russia can pay in anti tank missiles and anti aircraft systems and night vision equipment and flak vests...

    I doubt Ukrinian agreed to give a ship to Russia during the crimean crisis.

    Ukraine was murdering its own citizens because they would not stop speaking Russia... who gives a shit what they want?

    Well, they weren't abandoned they were seized there is a difference. Russian naval troops seized the base and didn't let anything go. Not like the Ukies went "you can have this" it was "So here is the deal, we are taking over the base and all your ships are staying right here". When you seize a base you are seizing everything around and in at the same time.

    The Russian troops were in Russian bases leased from Ukraine. They never exceeded the number of troops they were allowed to have in those bases.

    Most of the seizing was done by the Crimean people, the Russians just looking on and being polite.

    Those Crimean people were legally Ukrainian so those boats and that land was theirs and they legally voted to join the Russian Federation... which meant all the ships and property reverted to Russian ownership, so Russia was being very generous returning the crap they didn't want to Kiev... something that Kiev managed to ruin by murdering their own people.

    The 22350 "frigates" are classified as a 1st rank ship, this is a destroyer or "ship of the line" not a frigate, using the common and NATO classification.

    So the Gorshkov frigates are the same 1st rank as the upgraded Peter the Great Orlan class ships?

    The fact that the designation for the Udaloy has changed from Destroyer to Frigate suggests that ships can change rank easily enough and that when new destroyers and new cruisers are built these frigates will drop down the ranks accordingly.
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    Post  franco Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:59 pm

    If memory serves me correct, there were only 3-4 of those ships left in Crimea that were deemed worth salvaging.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:09 pm

    Another St Petersburg ship on the 25th Navy Day.

    The "Soviet Union" still under her own power. Quite a sight!

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 E7sxRXuXEAcP9dT?format=jpg&name=medium

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:37 pm

    Ah the Sovetsky Soyuz class.

    Proof the Russians invented stealth tech before anyone else, it was never spotted during the war and the Germans never realized it was sinking their ships.

    Odd the Russians revealed the existence of the ship to the world like this scratch

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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 pm

    Sadly on her maiden voyage to Cuba she disappeared with all hands on deck. There was some claims that she was sunk by the USN Sea Wolf but that ended up being just another conspiracy theory Arrow

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:31 pm

    The first Soviet nuclear submarine K-3 "Leninsky Komsomol" is being prepared for transportation to Kronstadt to become a key museum exhibit there
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 Img_2105
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 Img_2106
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 Img_2107Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 Img_2108
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 Img_2109

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    Post  Isos Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Another St Petersburg ship on the 25th Navy Day.

    The "Soviet Union" still under her own power. Quite a sight!

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 E7sxRXuXEAcP9dT?format=jpg&name=medium

    Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:44 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.
    I think it must be, all 4 were supposed to have been scrapped in the 40's before they were complete.

    Apologies for posting it but it just looked so good. Made me smile.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:57 am

    Isos wrote:Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.

    3D render of a World of Warships digital model.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:03 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Ah the Sovetsky Soyuz class.

    Proof the Russians invented stealth tech before anyone else, it was never spotted during the war and the Germans never realized it was sinking their ships.

    Odd the Russians revealed the existence of the ship to the world like this scratch

    scratch

    Wut?  Given that the Germans had known that she was being built at Leningrad, and had been flying aerial recon & photographed her, you still think it was "never spotted" and only now are the Russians revealing her existance?

    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Low info voter indeed...

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 32 BalticShipyard26June1941

    BTW here she is on the stocks, along with the heavy cruiser Chkalov.  Photo taken by Luftwaffe in June 1941

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:31 am

    Are you serious xD, Just woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

    You clearly missed the joke and your trying to insult my intelligence? what an absolute moron.

    I feel sorry for you.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:45 am

    Isos wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Another St Petersburg ship on the 25th Navy Day.

    The "Soviet Union" still under her own power. Quite a sight!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7sxRXuXEAcP9dT?format=jpg&name=medium

    Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.

    Dude, are you for real? Suspect

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:00 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.
    I think it must be, all 4 were supposed to have been scrapped in the 40's before they were complete.

    Apologies for posting it but it just looked so good. Made me smile.

    It's from World of Warships, this image was in their Naval Legends video about the class.

    It's a tier 9 out of 10 Russian BB.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:38 am

    Isos wrote:
    Is it a photoshop ? Never seen pictures of this ship.

    Believe me if that behemoth existed for real and survived to this day then there's no way you would have missed it

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