Second part of the interview, with everything you wanted to know about the new carrier
– Has the Board of the Military-Industrial Commission of the Russian Federation started forming the next state armament program for 2024-2033?
– We started preparing the next program document on the development of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation last year: the procedure for forming the program was developed, and an exhaustive list of state customers who will be included in it was determined. This year, a unified system of initial data and main directions for the development of weapons, military and special equipment for the program period will be formed. Uniform methodological materials for all government customers have already been approved. In 2022-2023, we will develop proposals on the composition, content, technical and economic indicators of events. The work will be completed at the end of 2023.
– What will change in comparison with the current program?
– There will be no drastic changes for the Navy. There are certain nuances, but they are not fundamental when compared with the current GPV or with the previous one. The Navy is the type of Armed Forces in which the planning horizon is defined until 2050. After all, only the construction of a nuclear serial submarine takes 7-8 years, and it has been in the fleet for at least 35 years. Lead boats take even longer to build.
– What exactly has become more complicated?
- The programs of factory and state tests have increased in terms of time due to the growing technical complexity of ship systems and complexes. When we try to eliminate the problem of one system in modern ships, we have to take into account its interface with other complexes. This was the reason for the delay in the delivery of the lead multi-purpose nuclear submarine "Kazan".
– Did this complication have a negative impact on reliability?
– This is the second side of the question. For example, on a nuclear submarine of project 941, which I handed over as a tuning engineer in 1980, some elements of the automation system had to be removed at the stage of sea tests and returned to the old tested elements. Increasing complexity requires more highly qualified engineers, mathematicians, programmers, and ship crews.
– In the new ships, on the same "Boreas" and " Ash " did you also have to abandon some innovations and return to the old proven solutions?
– No, this was not the case. Although there are two or three factories that, unfortunately, allowed the delivery of ship complexes with deviations from the technical documentation. As a result, it took months to correct the comments. Of course, we struggle with this practice, and sometimes we have to go to extreme measures and change factory managers.
- What specific complexes were delivered with deviations from the technical specification?
– Last year, quite unexpectedly, a deviation from the documentation on block steam turbine installations was revealed during serial deliveries. We demanded an analysis of the entire quality system. The owners of the plant changed the manager and checked the technological discipline at all stages, starting from the moment of metal receipt and development of technological documentation.
– If the fleet development plans are clear for decades to come, what events can change such long-term plans? Pirates inThe Gulf of Aden? The need to transport goods toSyria?
– The problem of cargo transportation to Syria was solved by mobilizing all support vessels that could transfer cargo. For example, the ship "Yauza". Initially, it was planned to use it for other tasks, but since its average repair was completed at this time, the ship was instantly mobilized. Then a number of civilian vessels were acquired. We didn't have time to lay down and build new dry cargo ships.
- Can you describe the approximate appearance of the Navy for the future of ten years, by the time the next GPV is completed?
– By the 2030s, we must complete the creation of groups of fourth-generation nuclear submarines, upgraded corvettes of projects 20385 and 20386. On the planning horizon until 2050, all projects will be further developed. Frigate 22350 has already been upgraded – we have increased the number of launchers. The next stage is the construction of the frigate 22350M. Its displacement will be increased to eight thousand tons.
– Will work continue to reduce the radar visibility of ships?
– This direction will be developed, but you need to clearly understand that the ship is not a needle. The capabilities of orbital groups and aerial reconnaissance allow you to detect any ship.
The problem of reducing radar visibility is solved in different ways. First, it is the architecture of the ship itself. Our destroyers or missile cruisers of the previous series resembled a hedgehog, studded with dozens of antennas. On corvettes, we switched to an integrated mast. All antennas are hidden in the superstructure. Of course, the effective scattering area must be reduced. But the ship can't go into radio silence all the time. As soon as some radiating device is turned on, it will be detected by radio intelligence.
Stealth is very necessary when the ship was attacked by anti-ship missiles with radar homing heads. But this task is being solved, among other things, by means of electronic warfare.
Another way to reduce the visibility of surface ships is to use composite materials and special paint coatings. All these areas are being implemented here.
– Is there a place for aircraft carriers in the new GPV?
– In the near future, as part of the preparation of a new GPV, it is necessary to assess the feasibility of creating aircraft carriers and their cost. In theory, the Navy needs three such ships – the lead and two serial ones.
There is an advance design of the aircraft carrier. There are also nuclear power plants of the required capacity that will provide the appropriate speed. But several basic elements of the future aircraft carrier need to be brought to mind, including the take-off and landing systems of aircraft.
In addition, we must create a promising deck-based ship-based fighter capable of carrying the required amount of weapons.
The parent construction plant must be identified. At the moment, none of the factories, except, perhaps, in the future, the Zvezda plant in Bolshoy Kamen, is capable of building ships of this displacement. Theoretically, during the reconstruction of the work could take more "Sevmash, but it is loaded with a program for building nuclear submarines. And I would not want to risk the failure of this or that program.
According to experts, such a large project should be implemented under a separate state program. If the construction of an aircraft carrier is included in the weapons program, the financing of this line can "eat up" all other naval areas.
– How much can an aircraft carrier cost?
– There are different ratings. We are presented with the following: the lead aircraft carrier – about 500 billion rubles. But this is a crafty figure. When we start building such a large-scale ship, and it must be at least 70-80 thousand tons of displacement, we can enter the program with one figure, and in 10 years get another. All risks should be considered at the planning stage, before making a decision. We can make mistakes by 10-20%, but not by many times. Otherwise, we will go into long-term construction for many years.
So far, everything depends on the price of the issue, which, I repeat, starts from 500 billion rubles for one aircraft carrier, and it's hard to even imagine where we can stop. To make a decision, you need a deep analysis of all options, scientific and technical reserve for the main ship complexes and a promising carrier-based fighter.
We know how much ships of this class cost inAmerica, inEngland and France. We believe that it should be cheaper here. At least because we do not set ourselves the task of reaching the analog of the American one – 110 thousand tons of displacement, the air wing has more than 100 aircraft, including drones.
– Will the new aircraft carrier require the creation of a new generation of nuclear installations?
– I don't think so. We have a scientific and technical background on shipboard nuclear reactors and ship electric propulsion systems.
– You mentioned a promising carrier-based fighter. If this is not a MiG-29K or Su-33, then what is it?
"That's what the aviation experts should tell us. The Su-57 can be taken as a base, but the designers will have to recalculate everything for basing the aircraft on the ship. First of all, this is a folding wing, elements associated with braking devices, because a normal aircraft will not be able to perceive the dynamic loads associated with a hook when landing behind a hook.
– Which wing should be based on it?
– The air wing will be significantly increased in comparison with the Admiral Kuznetsov ,including the appearance of unmanned aerial vehicles.
– If a decision is made to build an aircraft carrier, how many years will it take?
- A minimum of 10 years if there is a scientific and technical reserve for the aircraft and the shipyard is ready.
- Speaking of aircraft carriers. What is known about the fate of the PD-50 floating dock that sank during the withdrawal of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier? Will it be lifted from the bottom and restored or disposed of, or will it remain where it is now?
– According to most experts, the dock needs to be raised. At least from the point of view of ecology. Secondly, it sank in a " pit "(a place with a deep bottom-ed.), and we have not so many "pits". It is necessary to find sources of funding for the PD-50 upgrade. It cannot be restored.
– In June 2020, the first two universal landing ships were laid. At first it was reported that its displacement will be 29 thousand tons, then it increased to 40. Why did this happen?
– This story began with an attempt to buy French Mistrals. Budget funds were planned, and guarantees for the execution of the contract were received from the French leadership. Moreover, the French presented this as the salvation of the Saint-Lazare shipyard by the Russians. But the year 2014 came, and we were simply abandoned. So there was a task to independently build ships of this class.
The UDC has been laid down, the working design documentation is being finalized, the tactical and technical task is being clarified, and construction is being carried out in parallel. When forming the technical specification, the displacement was determined in the amount of about 30 thousand tons. But when the specific study went, the fleet had ideas for installing additional ship complexes on the UDC, the presence of which eventually led to an increase in displacement. It is clear that if you dramatically increase the displacement, then the price of the issue will be different, and the years of delivery will be pushed back. But if the state customer believes that ships of this class are needed, that there are tasks for them, then we will build them. Let me remind you, uChina has universal landing ships with a displacement of both 20 and 40 thousand tons. What are the advantages of such ships? They are, as their name implies, universal. They can be used directly as landing ships and as a staff ship to support the actions of operational formations in the far sea zone, and as a floating hospital, and to solve a number of other tasks. In peacetime, they may be in demand during natural disasters in coastal areas.
The set of weapons at the UDC is minimal, so it will need some protection, that is, it will operate as part of a group. It will carry aircraft, including drones, amphibious vehicles, and modern landing vehicles. I can't comment on how much and what kind of equipment it will carry.
– What other innovations will be spelled out in the new GPV?
– Under the new program, we must create a reserve by 2030 and approach the start of construction of fifth-generation nuclear submarines. Their special feature will be increased automation or in other words – robotization, modularity (the element base changes every five years, and the life of the boat is at least 35 years), increased stealth. We are already working on creating the scientific and technical basis for the next generation of warships.
– What will the robotization of nuclear submarines mean?
– This is a single complex that combines various ship systems that previously worked independently and solved one or another task to ensure navigation, hydroacoustics, communications, pre-launch training, and navigation safety. The integrated control system solves the problem taking into account the processing of information from all ship complexes and offers the ship commander a particular solution. The combat information system offers, but it is the commander who chooses the action plan. We do not deviate from making a final decision by a person, although automated control modes are present on fourth-generation submarines. On the fifth-generation nuclear submarines, this direction will be further developed. Submarines without a crew, of course, will not remain, although Russia is also developing unmanned platforms. Actually, just like the Americans. Most likely, the new GPV will further develop work on the creation of crewless platforms, both underwater and surface.
- The Americans are actively developing large drone ships. Will we have something similar? In general, what are the prospects for surface and underwater unmanned vehicles?
- Leading maritime countries are developing four types of crewless platforms: ultra-small, small, medium and large. All these platforms are built on a single artificial intelligence architecture. Each platform solves its own problems. Some are designed for reconnaissance, others are engaged in mine defense, and others carry shock weapons. We have several institutes involved in this area.
Now we are in a situation where the words "cold war" are not spoken, but relations between Russia and the United States are worse than ever. Even during the confrontation between the United States and the USSR, relations did not reach such a decline. The world is full of contradictions, and we must have sufficient defense potential in these conditions.
– Another unmanned vehicle is the deep – sea Vityaz. Will it be transferred to the navy? Will such devices still be built in the interests of Russian military sailors?
– Today, the Vityaz deep-sea vehicle is on the developer's balance sheet, and according to the test results, it will be transferred to the fleet. In which fleet to serve him-decides the Main Command of the Navy. The Vityaz series modernization program will continue.
https://ria.ru/20210518/pospelov-1732345158.html