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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:15 am

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    They have lots of different VLS versions in service and most are limited by their size as to what missile combinations they can carry.

    The purpose of the UKSK launcher was to combine all the different anti ship missile types into a few specific types, and to also add anti submarine weapons and land attack cruise missiles all in one launcher.

    Redut is an attempt to combine S-350 which includes a small short ranged IIR guided CIWS type SAM with the 9M96 type medium and long range missiles essentially equivalent to BUK and Rif-M, but to also carry the large S-400 missiles that the Russians have never had at sea before simply because they didn't have the AWACS support to use missiles against targets that far away.

    They will likely add S-500 missiles for the purpose of dealing with the US using nuclear armed SAMs as hypersonic ballistic anti ship weapons initially and then later proper fully developed hypersonic weapons they will no doubt likely develop eventually.

    The UKSK-M will expand to include SAMs but because of its size can't be used on Frigates or Corvettes, and would not be ideal as the only missile system for other vessels either as it would seriously reduce the number and variety of weapons it could carry.

    Having smaller missile launchers like for TOR and indeed Pantsir means you can locate systems in places where they only take one deck level instead of a half dozen or more so there are more places on the ship they can be located.

    Also with the modular design of some ships even shipping containers might carry small or even large weapons too.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 am

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.

    The line drawing of it that has been posted shows it includes BUK based SAMs as well as Redut type missiles, but also EW items like chaff and flare launchers etc etc.

    I would think it might also carry S-500 type missiles which will likely be bigger than S-400 missiles due to their purpose.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:13 am


    Surface combatants:
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 Armada%2Brusa%2Bbuques%2B2021%2Bnumerales%2Binc



    Vessels under construction (purple = in the water) :
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 Armada%2Brusa%2Bbuques%2By%2Bsubmarinos%2Ben%2Bconstrucci%25C3%25B3n%2B2020



    Submarines (green = being repaired, blue = undergoing upgrades):
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 Armada%2Brusa%2Bsubmarinos%2Ben%2Bservicio%2B2020

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:41 pm



    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 E0MBNdzWUAMfOug?format=jpg&name=900x900

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 E0Mxy5pVUAAZNrm?format=jpg&name=medium

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 25 E0MxzPSVUAApIDf?format=jpg&name=medium

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    RTN
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    Post  RTN Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:26 pm

    Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.


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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 pm

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.
    ...

    Already posted on different tread couple of days ago
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.


    The USA needs new, way bigger VLS for hypersonic missiles.

    https://news.usni.org/2021/04/28/cno-hypersonic-weapons-at-sea-to-premiere-on-zumwalt-destroyers-in-2025

    It dwarfs the Onyx.

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    Post  The_Observer Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pm

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.



    It's not a failure. It's an emergency "throw test" deliberately conducted on UKSK hot-launch system. @Granger on Twitter

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat May 01, 2021 4:04 am

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat May 01, 2021 5:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys. Very Happy
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    Post  limb Sat May 01, 2021 9:08 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys.  Very Happy

    They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important
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    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 11:42 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:


    I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal? If they really want to put this ship away why can't they just tow it to the middle of Sea of Okhotsk and make a nice FHD video of of KH-32 or Kinzhal in action?
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat May 01, 2021 11:59 am

    Two words: nuclear reactors.
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    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 12:24 pm

    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 2:00 pm

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.

    I have seen it done before, but not on purpose... it was a western SSBN missile that did it during a test... not a test specifically to do this, but a normal test where it should have flown to target and hit it.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 5:10 pm

    limb wrote:...They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important

    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough



    owais.usmani wrote:...I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal?...

    It's not rusted metal, it's high quality steel (better than usual warship grade steel in this case) and that stuff gets recycled

    Plus like Hole said, reactors


    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat May 01, 2021 9:34 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun May 02, 2021 1:26 am

    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun May 02, 2021 11:44 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.

    Hundred years, and the reactor is not radioactive any more.

    300 years and the fual can manually handled.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 02, 2021 5:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    limb wrote:...They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs  and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important

    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough

    Na

    They can do without the Liders this decade, but they really do need Super Gorshkovs.
    In terms of capital ships, Russia is not going to cut it with its Kuznetsov constantly in maintanance, 2 Kirovs one of which will be occupied in modernization this decade as soon as the other is ready, 3 outdated Slavas approaching the ends of their lives, and modernized Udaloys

    Such a force would be sufficient for 1 fleet, but not spread across 2/3

    Half dozen Super Gorshkovs ought to be the aim for the 20s

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun May 02, 2021 5:48 pm

    flamming_python wrote:.....
    PapaDragon wrote:
    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough

    Na

    They can do without the Liders this decade, but they really do need Super Gorshkovs.
    In terms of capital ships, Russia is not going to cut it with its Kuznetsov constantly in maintanance, 2 Kirovs one of which will go into modernization this decade as soon as the other is ready, 3 outdated Slavas approaching the ends of their lives, and modernized Udaloys

    Such a force would be sufficient for 1 fleet, but not spread across 2/3

    Kuznetzov is a floating monument to failure and was never really a factor in any Naval matters (other than tying down resources, manpower and aircraft)

    Kirovs are nice to have but not exactly something a pair of frigates can't fill in for

    Vanilla Gorshkov easily replaces Udaloi and those latest Gorshkovs with expanded LACMs can do the job for Slavas no problem

    Problem is construction speed and considering that even Gorshkov takes ages to build commiting to Super Gorshkov is even more wasteful and is definitely pointless

    Better to fix problems for what you already have (Gorshkov) than to create even more problems by chasing some ego-trip boondoggle in the making (Super Gorshkov)

    By the time first Super Gorshkov is launched all Soviet era ships will be rusted away and existing Gorshkovs will need Shaposhnikov-level overhaul just to remain partially useful and fleet will be back to square one only this time 70% smaller




    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 02, 2021 5:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:.....
    PapaDragon wrote:
    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough

    Na

    They can do without the Liders this decade, but they really do need Super Gorshkovs.
    In terms of capital ships, Russia is not going to cut it with its Kuznetsov constantly in maintanance, 2 Kirovs one of which will go into modernization this decade as soon as the other is ready, 3 outdated Slavas approaching the ends of their lives, and modernized Udaloys

    Such a force would be sufficient for 1 fleet, but not spread across 2/3

    Kuznetzov is a floating monument to failure and was never really a factor in any Naval matters (other than tying down resources, manpower and aircraft)

    Kirovs are nice to have but not exactly something a pair of frigates can't fill in for

    Vanilla Gorshkov easily replaces Udaloi and those latest Gorshkovs with expanded LACMs can do the job for Slavas no problem

    Problem is construction speed and considering that even Gorshkov takes ages to build commiting to Super Gorshkov is even more wasteful and is definitely pointless

    Better to fix problems for what you already have (Gorshkov) than to create even more problems by chasing some ego-trip boondoggle in the making (Super Gorshkov)

    By the time first Super Gorshkov is launched all Soviet era ships will be rusted away and existing Gorshkovs will need Shaposhnikov-level overhaul just to remain partially useful and fleet will be back to square one only this time 70% smaller

    Point is to have a credible force by the time the current fleet rusts away. Which will start happening by the beginning of the next decade or even the end of the current one, with the retirement of the Slavas, and then not long after the Udaloys.

    You can' substitute a nuclear battlecruiser with a frigate, no matter how modern it is. You can't even substitute the Slavas with them; not enough endurance and lesser AA capabilities to keep up with the Kuznetsov, nor to intercept enemy naval groups in the ocean. Which I agree is a hulk but it looks like they're set on keeping it so might as well put it to use.

    The shipyards need to get their act together, there's no other way out of this predicament.
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    Post  nero Sun May 02, 2021 6:40 pm

    The Russians aren't building a flotilla to go all around the world; they're building a navy that can protect them against their adversaries. The vast majority of the trade-routes en-use by Russia are going to be coastal.

    That is why, primarily, they are focusing on building Gorshkov's (15 planned), Grigorovich's (7 planned), Buyan-M's (15 planned), Steregushchiy's (24 planned), Gremyashchiy's (6 planned), Karakurt's (16 planned) & Project 20386's (10 planned). None of them are fit to embark on long-distance patrols.

    A total of 93 surface ships.

    They also seemed to have scrapped the idea of nuclear attack submarines, probably for the same reason they're mostly focused on building coastal defense ships. They're currently planning: Project 885's (10 planned - nuclear cruise), Project 545 (Unknown - nuclear cruise), Project 636.3's (13 planned - attack), Project 677 (12 planned, attack), something from ЦКБ "Рубин" (unknown - attack), Project 955(A) (10 planned - nuclear ballistic).

    A total of 45 submarines.

    It should be noted that they're also planning to build quite a few nuclear icebreakers: Project 22220's (5 planned), Project 10510 (3 planned) to complement the currently operational 2x Arktika's & 2x Taymyr's. That'll increase their fleet twice, btw.

    And there's absolutely no reason for them to build large destroyers or aircraft carriers. They will never see actual use as the Russians remain to be a more land oriented military power (due to the threats they face). Not to mention that the vast majority of US Navy ships will be focused predominantly on the Chinese, given this is their short-term plan (including currently operational newly built ships):


    • Type 55 - 16 planned, destroyer/cruiser
    • Type 52D - 25 planned, destroyer
    • Type 52C - 6 planned, destroyer
    • Type 52B - 2 planned, destroyer
    • Type 51C - 2 planned, destroyer
    • Type 54A - 50 planned, frigate
    • Type 54 - 2 planned, frigate
    • Type 53 (all) - 20 planned, frigate
    • Type 56 - 72 planned, corvette
    • Total destroyers: 51
    • Total frigate's & corvettes' : 144
    • Total: 192


    The Chinese are actually building carrier escort groups and a deep water navy. In addition to a huge amount of coastal ships that will guard their shipping routes. They've already surpassed the US navy in terms of surface ships and they will not stop doing this as their manufacturing capability is only set to increase.

    You need only compare the above to what the Australians, French, Americans, Germans and the English have (I've even added the Japanese for extra credit, due to their racism against the Chinese):


    • US destroyers: 97
    • Japanese destroyers: 36
    • UK destroyers: 12
    • French destroyers: 11
    • Australian destroyer: 3
    • US frigates: 35
    • UK frigates: 13
    • French frigates: 11
    • Germany frigates: 10
    • Australian frigates: 10
    • Germany corvettes: 5
    • Total destroyers: 159
    • Total frigates: 79
    • Total: 243


    The Germans are barely able to keep their fleet functional. The French and UK have actually failed to launch numerous missiles from their frigates/destroyers. The Australians are basically a joke. The Japanese are under various treaties to not include land-attack missiles in their navy arsenals. The only real adversary that the Chinese and Russians are facing is the United States. A navy who's so split all over the world that their force projection in the Chinese/Russian region is completely pathetic.

    The Chinese will continue to build up their destroyers and frigates at a pace of about 10 / year. Comparing that to the pace of the United States (2 / year) is a joke. In just a decade they'll have complete superiority over the United States in their coastal ships and blue water navy... by the looks of how their air-force is growing, I dare say they'll have superiority over the Americans in about the same time too.



    Last edited by nero on Sun May 02, 2021 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun May 02, 2021 7:11 pm

    It seems people have their opinion and nothing of what VMF says or does can change it... They are indeed planing to have an ocean going fleet, but of course those bigger and more expensive ships for power projection come last, both for reasons of industrial development after the fall of the USSR and also because the more pressing priorities lay closer to the Russian territory. They are not giving up their blue water fleet, the relevant documents are available for anyone wanting to check them.

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    nero

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    Post  nero Sun May 02, 2021 7:40 pm

    LMFS wrote:It seems people have their opinion and nothing of what VMF says or does can change it... They are indeed planing to have an ocean going fleet, but of course those bigger and more expensive ships for power projection come last, both for reasons of industrial development after the fall of the USSR and also because the more pressing priorities lay closer to the Russian territory. They are not giving up their blue water fleet, the relevant documents are available for anyone wanting to check them.

    That does not correspond to the reality of where the current design is focused. Project 23560's are still out by at least a decade or so; whilst the carrier project they've been mulling over is likely going to get the shelf.

    I've described my reasoning in the post above yours; though answer me this:

    With the advent of long-range standoff missiles that can be launched from ship, aircraft or land (remember that the treaty banning land-based cruise missiles is gone) where will the Russian navy make use of their destroyer fleet? Where do they currently use them primarily?

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