Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+68
Krepost
ALAMO
Broski
marcellogo
Azi
auslander
miroslav
thegopnik
Finty
Mir
mavaff
Russian_Patriot_
Lurk83
Kiko
nero
flamming_python
PapaDragon
The_Observer
RTN
gbu48098
thedrunkengeneral
Firebird
ARYGER
zardof
limb
bren_tann
lyle6
slasher
mnztr
The-thing-next-door
Backman
calripson
AMCXXL
Big_Gazza
kvs
Sujoy
lancelot
Gomig-21
ult
LMFS
medo
owais.usmani
TheArmenian
ultimatewarrior
Arrow
Mindstorm
franco
d_taddei2
Viktor
JohninMK
walle83
Austin
PhSt
Tsavo Lion
magnumcromagnon
Gibraltar
Rodion_Romanovic
George1
Cyberspec
dino00
Singular_Transform
Vann7
Hole
hoom
miketheterrible
x_54_u43
marat
SeigSoloyvov
72 posters

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 9568
    Points : 9554
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Isos Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:25 pm

    No genius. It just can't carry russian big missiles. They can create a supersonic missile that fits in their VLS if they want to. But they are not interested by supersonic missiles.

    Rrdut is is for small AD missiles. UKSK is for cruise missiles and can't carry any AD missiles.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    It's not just a matter of size but also intergration/software/connections.

    US can pack AD missiles with 300km range, quad pack shorter range missiles, long range tomahawks and new stealthy anti ship missile. That's certainly not "only light missiles".
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:44 am

    So similar sizes but it indeed seems the advantage is for the USKSK.

    But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.


    Maybe the time was needed to override the civilian casualties lock...

    American Navy ships don't have such a thing... or it is automatically on all the time.

    Now seriously, a missile like the 3M54 would give little more than 10 seconds to the weapon systems on the ship to detect, get a firing solution and launch before being hit. For their own good, I hope they have improved massively in their reaction time.

    This was in the late 1980s and they were crowing about it being a phased array radar that could identify targets by counting the blades in their jet engines to determine what the target was... but mistook and Airbus for an F-14.

    More importantly mistook a climbing Airbus for a descending F-14....

    ABM on ships like S-500 isn't needed for Russia since they don't have bases around the world to protect them. Their mainland is protected by land based systems which are better positionned and connected to the ground based OTH radars that see better than any ship mounted radar.

    Their cruisers will still get them (maybe their new ones not upgraded ones) for their anti satellite capability and anti carrier ballistic weapons like those belonging to China.

    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    Not really.... the US system includes a range of different systems some of which are very limited as to which missiles they can carry... most of them started out as Standard launch tubes replacing arm launchers but because Standard is very long because it has a solid rocket booster it was a long narrow missile like Tomahawk and harpoon and ASROC so they started combining them in missile tubes but each version has different capabilities.

    The Russians have the advantage that the Redut system is shorter so can be located in more places on the ship where the longer UKSK wont fit.

    Ideally having a UKSK-M that takes SAMS as well means no more SAM launch tubes and just UKSK-M tubes... but more of them... but it makes sense to still have SAM tubes because for example TOR tubes are small and could be located in shallow areas no other system would fit so you don't waste bigger tubes with little short missiles that barely fill a quarter of their depth.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    There is no situation where you would not want to carry both you always need attack weapons and you always need SAMs.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.

    The size of their tubes limits their options for future missiles.

    Larger calibre tubes means Russia has less tubes but can use bigger higher performing weapons too.

    You don't need 200 launch tubes if Zircon is going to get through most of the time.... you do need 200 launch tubes when your standard anti ship missile is Harpoon.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    They have a large number of different vertical launch tubes and most can't pack any missile.
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform


    Posts : 1006
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:31 pm

    Isos wrote:No genius. It just can't carry russian big missiles. They can create a supersonic missile that fits in their VLS if they want to. But they are not interested by supersonic missiles.

    Rrdut is is for small AD missiles. UKSK is for cruise missiles and can't carry any AD missiles.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    It's not just a matter of size but also intergration/software/connections.

    US can pack AD missiles with 300km range, quad pack shorter range missiles, long range tomahawks and new stealthy anti ship missile. That's certainly not "only light missiles".

    The VLS dimensions drive the ship design, not the other way around.

    The USA VLS systems built around SAM missiles, in the 80s.

    These simply can't accomodate bigger , long range anti ship , high peed missiles.

    And it is not a problem of "you will make it work", if the diameter and lenght is not there the end result air breathing missile won't have warhead, or has only insiginficant range. Basic engineering problems.


    Same like saying if a mig 21 can have the same capability like a su-35. The dimensions not there.
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 9568
    Points : 9554
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Isos Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:38 pm

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    gbu48098 likes this post

    avatar
    gbu48098


    Posts : 198
    Points : 200
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 pm

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    Yes and I read somewhere they have given out contracts to look into increasing the characteristics/density of the propulsion material that can increase range as well as speed keeping the profile of the recent launchers. Russian and US stuff is not exactly one to one just like Russian liquid engines being better lb on lb than US ones and US having edge on some other things.
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform


    Posts : 1006
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:58 pm

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    There is incremental improvement regards of connections, new types of missiles and so on.

    The dimensions of the cansiters the same, 40+ years design.

    The same true for the Virignia vs Yassen, the submarine design driven by the need to accomodate the bigger air breathing supersonic missiles.
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4553
    Points : 4553
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  LMFS Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:19 am

    GarryB wrote:But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:15 am

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    They have lots of different VLS versions in service and most are limited by their size as to what missile combinations they can carry.

    The purpose of the UKSK launcher was to combine all the different anti ship missile types into a few specific types, and to also add anti submarine weapons and land attack cruise missiles all in one launcher.

    Redut is an attempt to combine S-350 which includes a small short ranged IIR guided CIWS type SAM with the 9M96 type medium and long range missiles essentially equivalent to BUK and Rif-M, but to also carry the large S-400 missiles that the Russians have never had at sea before simply because they didn't have the AWACS support to use missiles against targets that far away.

    They will likely add S-500 missiles for the purpose of dealing with the US using nuclear armed SAMs as hypersonic ballistic anti ship weapons initially and then later proper fully developed hypersonic weapons they will no doubt likely develop eventually.

    The UKSK-M will expand to include SAMs but because of its size can't be used on Frigates or Corvettes, and would not be ideal as the only missile system for other vessels either as it would seriously reduce the number and variety of weapons it could carry.

    Having smaller missile launchers like for TOR and indeed Pantsir means you can locate systems in places where they only take one deck level instead of a half dozen or more so there are more places on the ship they can be located.

    Also with the modular design of some ships even shipping containers might carry small or even large weapons too.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:18 am

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.

    The line drawing of it that has been posted shows it includes BUK based SAMs as well as Redut type missiles, but also EW items like chaff and flare launchers etc etc.

    I would think it might also carry S-500 type missiles which will likely be bigger than S-400 missiles due to their purpose.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 12331
    Points : 12391
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:41 pm



    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 E0MBNdzWUAMfOug?format=jpg&name=900x900

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 E0Mxy5pVUAAZNrm?format=jpg&name=medium

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 E0MxzPSVUAApIDf?format=jpg&name=medium

    LMFS likes this post

    RTN
    RTN


    Posts : 631
    Points : 610
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield, CT

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  RTN Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:26 pm

    Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.


    dino00 likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 12331
    Points : 12391
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:03 pm

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.
    ...

    Already posted on different tread couple of days ago
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform


    Posts : 1006
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Singular_Transform Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:53 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.


    The USA needs new, way bigger VLS for hypersonic missiles.

    https://news.usni.org/2021/04/28/cno-hypersonic-weapons-at-sea-to-premiere-on-zumwalt-destroyers-in-2025

    It dwarfs the Onyx.

    The_Observer
    The_Observer


    Posts : 85
    Points : 87
    Join date : 2021-01-03

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  The_Observer Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:54 pm

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.



    It's not a failure. It's an emergency "throw test" deliberately conducted on UKSK hot-launch system. @Granger on Twitter

    George1, dino00, Gomig-21 and lyle6 like this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21


    Posts : 452
    Points : 454
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Gomig-21 Sat May 01, 2021 2:04 am

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 3513
    Points : 3511
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Big_Gazza Sat May 01, 2021 3:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys. Very Happy
    avatar
    limb


    Posts : 704
    Points : 722
    Join date : 2020-09-17

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  limb Sat May 01, 2021 7:08 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys.  Very Happy

    They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1263
    Points : 1261
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 36

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 9:42 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:


    I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal? If they really want to put this ship away why can't they just tow it to the middle of Sea of Okhotsk and make a nice FHD video of of KH-32 or Kinzhal in action?
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 6714
    Points : 6702
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Hole Sat May 01, 2021 9:59 am

    Two words: nuclear reactors.
    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1263
    Points : 1261
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 36

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 10:24 am

    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 12:00 pm

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.

    I have seen it done before, but not on purpose... it was a western SSBN missile that did it during a test... not a test specifically to do this, but a normal test where it should have flown to target and hit it.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 12331
    Points : 12391
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 3:10 pm

    limb wrote:...They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important

    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough



    owais.usmani wrote:...I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal?...

    It's not rusted metal, it's high quality steel (better than usual warship grade steel in this case) and that stuff gets recycled

    Plus like Hole said, reactors


    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 6714
    Points : 6702
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Hole Sat May 01, 2021 7:34 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    PapaDragon and lancelot like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1288
    Points : 1288
    Join date : 2020-10-17

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  lancelot Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 pm

    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform


    Posts : 1006
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Singular_Transform Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.

    Hundred years, and the reactor is not radioactive any more.

    300 years and the fual can manually handled.

    Sponsored content


    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:36 am