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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:26 pm

    Start of the interspecific command-staff exercise under the leadership of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy in the Northern Fleet


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    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:44 am


    What is Russia's counterpart to the American Aegis Combat System? I have read a lot of commentary about how Russia excels in anti aircraft/ ballistic missile/ satellite systems, but I saw information about the US Standard Missile 3 which claims to have 1,200 km range and engage targets up to 1,050 km in altitude, when I compared it to Russia's S-400, it only has a maximum range of 400 km and 60 km altitude. And S-400 don't even seem to have a naval version. Am I comparing different systems for different roles? I checked information about Poliment-Redut but its range and altitude are even lower than the S-400.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:53 am

    PhSt wrote:
    What is Russia's counterpart to the American Aegis Combat System? I have read a lot of commentary about how Russia excels in anti aircraft/ ballistic missile/ satellite systems, but I saw information about the US Standard Missile 3 which claims to have 1,200 km range and engage targets up to 1,050 km in altitude, when I compared it to Russia's S-400, it only has a maximum range of 400 km and 60 km altitude. And S-400 don't even seem to have a naval version. Am I comparing different systems for different roles? I checked information about Poliment-Redut but its range and altitude are even lower than the S-400.

    At that kind of altitude you aren't inside the atmosphere anymore.
    There isn't any air friction at that altitude.

    If you look at the missile dimensions the SM-3 and the S-400 missile dimensions aren't that different.
    The diameter is roughly the same and the Russian missiles are up to a meter longer.

    It seems that the longest range S-400 missile has two stages and the SM-3 can have four stages.
    Missiles with more stages can reach higher terminal velocities. The problem is you get less missile reliability because staging can fail.
    It seems to me the S-400 is more optimized against aircraft and the SM-3 against ballistic missiles.

    This is likely because of the threat scenarios these missiles were designed to defend against.
    A Russian ship might have to defend against a subsonic Harpoon or some other cruise missile.
    While the US ship will have to defend against supersonic missiles up to Mach 4.6 like the Kh-32.

    I think it is more adequate to compare S-400 missiles like the 40N6 with the SM-6 instead of the SM-3.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:31 am

    PhSt wrote:
    What is Russia's counterpart to the American Aegis Combat System? I have read a lot of commentary about how Russia excels in anti aircraft/ ballistic missile/ satellite systems, but I saw information about the US Standard Missile 3 which claims to have 1,200 km range and engage targets up to 1,050 km in altitude, when I compared it to Russia's S-400, it only has a maximum range of 400 km and 60 km altitude. And S-400 don't even seem to have a naval version. Am I comparing different systems for different roles? I checked information about Poliment-Redut but its range and altitude are even lower than the S-400.
    As if you could believe those numbers. Their battle-tested and decades in service Patriots are proven trash. What makes you think the Aegis is any better?

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:18 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    What is Russia's counterpart to the American Aegis Combat System? I have read a lot of commentary about how Russia excels in anti aircraft/ ballistic missile/ satellite systems, but I saw information about the US Standard Missile 3 which claims to have 1,200 km range and engage targets up to 1,050 km in altitude, when I compared it to Russia's S-400, it only has a maximum range of 400 km and 60 km altitude. And S-400 don't even seem to have a naval version. Am I comparing different systems for different roles? I checked information about Poliment-Redut but its range and altitude are even lower than the S-400.

    AEGIS is a naval weapons system, Russia has their equivalent but the exoatmospheric interceptor is missing in it, probably an eventual naval version of S-500 will fulfil that role. Redut / S-300 / S-400 are not even the same type of thing. Remember it was the US that withdrew from ABM treaty and planned to use their fleet as a mobile ABM shield, so they put the focus in that kind of weapon for their own reasons, while Russia had no big need for that. The actual kinematics of such interceptions put a heavy burden on the missile design, so that the SM-3 due to the VLS cells size is challenged to actually meet the needs of the mission. Russians will probably create a bigger VLS cell size for that kind of missiles, so that the interceptors are much harder to defeat.

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:16 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    PhSt wrote:
    What is Russia's counterpart to the American Aegis Combat System? I have read a lot of commentary about how Russia excels in anti aircraft/ ballistic missile/ satellite systems, but I saw information about the US Standard Missile 3 which claims to have 1,200 km range and engage targets up to 1,050 km in altitude, when I compared it to Russia's S-400, it only has a maximum range of 400 km and 60 km altitude. And S-400 don't even seem to have a naval version. Am I comparing different systems for different roles? I checked information about Poliment-Redut but its range and altitude are even lower than the S-400.

    AEGIS is a naval weapons system, Russia has their equivalent but the exoatmospheric interceptor is missing in it, probably an eventual naval version of S-500 will fulfil that role. Redut / S-300 / S-400 are not even the same type of thing. Remember it was the US that withdrew from ABM treaty and planned to use their fleet as a mobile ABM shield, so they put the focus in that kind of weapon for their own reasons, while Russia had no big need for that. The actual kinematics of such interceptions put a heavy burden on the missile design, so that the SM-3 due to the VLS cells size is challenged to actually meet the needs of the mission. Russians will probably create a bigger VLS cell size for that kind of missiles, so that the interceptors are much harder to defeat.

    The VLS used by the Russian ships way bigger then the USA ones, to acocmodate supersonic missiles.

    So there won't be issue to fit bigger missiles.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:10 pm

    The Russian system is called Sigma I believe.

    The SM-3 is a two stage missile with a large solid rocket motor booster, the S-400 is a single stage SAM.

    The SM-3 is an ABM modification of the Standard Surface to air Missile system used on US ships for quite a number of decades... the SM-2 was the missile that shot down an Iranian airbus in the 1980s.

    The air defence weapons of the US navy are head and shoulders above those of the US Army or Air Force, but in terms of claims the SM-3 is pretty much a naval version of the Russian ABM system that is intended to shoot down ABMs... it is a new development because before the ABM treaty was ripped up it would be illegal, and it is also a missile that is illegal when they introduced the AEGIS Ashore system, because obviously a missile that can reach targets 1,200km away is an IRBM, while the tomahawk cruise missiles the system can also launch are IRCMs which are both totally in violation of the INF treaty they only recently ripped up.

    Their battle-tested and decades in service Patriots are proven trash. What makes you think the Aegis is any better?

    Funny you should say that but when they shot down an Iranian airliner which they mistook for being an F-14 there was a system error that delayed the launch of the SM-2 missile by 90 seconds... if they were being attacked they would have been dead by then I would think.

    probably an eventual naval version of S-500 will fulfil that role.

    This... these are ABM systems and would be useless against aircraft or low flying missiles.

    SM-3 would likely be unable to manouver to kill Zircon... it is optimised for ballistic targets that follow predictable paths, not any sort of manouvering targets like aircraft.

    The obvious question would be if their naval SAMs could reach 1,200km... that is further than their F-35s could reach in 2 hours... why waste time with aircraft when you have such systems... and the answer is that SM-3 is like PAC-3 and THAAD and is not much use for anything except hitting very fast very predictable targets that don't move and don't fly low or turn...

    The Russian AEGIS system is applied to all their new and upgraded ships so from corvette up to carrier and including subs and aircraft are all linked in...
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:14 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:The VLS used by the Russian ships way bigger then the USA ones, to acocmodate supersonic missiles.

    So there won't be issue to fit bigger missiles.

    As far as I know the Mk 41 allows for canisters up to 7.7 m tall and the missiles inside seem to be 533 mm max. Mk 57 allows missiles up to three inches wider and 18 in longer. UKSK is almost 9 m tall and allows missiles up to 65-70 cm diameter from what I ahve seen, though it is difficult sometimes to be sure about canister and missile diameters in these cases. So similar sizes but it indeed seems the advantage is for the USKSK.

    GarryB wrote:Funny you should say that but when they shot down an Iranian airliner which they mistook for being an F-14 there was a system error that delayed the launch of the SM-2 missile by 90 seconds... if they were being attacked they would have been dead by then I would think.

    Maybe the time was needed to override the civilian casualties lock...

    Now seriously, a missile like the 3M54 would give little more than 10 seconds to the weapon systems on the ship to detect, get a firing solution and launch before being hit. For their own good, I hope they have improved massively in their reaction time.

    SM-3 would likely be unable to manouver to kill Zircon... it is optimised for ballistic targets that follow predictable paths, not any sort of manouvering targets like aircraft.

    Yes, and not only that, it employs a hit to kill exoatmospheric interceptor that is useless against missiles flying inside the atmosphere...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:03 pm

    ABM capability is missing on most of ARGIS ships, less than a third of their aegis ships have it. I also saw somewhere that when in ABM mode they can't detect low flying anti ship missiles so a simultanous attack with kalibr and Kinzhal is impossible to counter. But not sure if it's true.

    Sigma is a battle management system that connects all the ships/HQ/planes to share data they collect. Everyone can see what the others see.

    US counterpart is link 16.

    AEGIS is just the system that manages the weapons on a ship. Russian modern counterpart is poliment/redut.

    ABM on ships like S-500 isn't needed for Russia since they don't have bases around the world to protect them. Their mainland is protected by land based systems which are better positionned and connected to the ground based OTH radars that see better than any ship mounted radar.


    As far as I know the Mk 41 allows for canisters up to 7.7 m tall and the missiles inside seem to be 533 mm max. Mk 57 allows missiles up to three inches wider and 18 in longer. UKSK is almost 9 m tall and allows missiles up to 65-70 cm diameter from what I ahve seen, though it is difficult sometimes to be sure about canister and missile diameters in these cases. So similar sizes but it indeed seems the advantage is for the USKSK.

    US and chinese VLS can carry any type of missiles.

    UKSK is just for cruise missiles. Redut is only for smaller AD missiles.

    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:11 pm

    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.
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    Post  Isos Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:56 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:22 am

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.
    ??

    Correctly sounds like : The USA can't carry supersonic/hypersonic air breathing missiles in the VLS, because they are too small for this purpose

    The Redut is for small , shart/medium renge SAM missiles, the normal VLS is for long range, light and medium missiles.

    The USA can field only light missiles into the VLS systems on the ships.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:25 am

    No genius. It just can't carry russian big missiles. They can create a supersonic missile that fits in their VLS if they want to. But they are not interested by supersonic missiles.

    Rrdut is is for small AD missiles. UKSK is for cruise missiles and can't carry any AD missiles.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    It's not just a matter of size but also intergration/software/connections.

    US can pack AD missiles with 300km range, quad pack shorter range missiles, long range tomahawks and new stealthy anti ship missile. That's certainly not "only light missiles".
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:44 am

    So similar sizes but it indeed seems the advantage is for the USKSK.

    But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.


    Maybe the time was needed to override the civilian casualties lock...

    American Navy ships don't have such a thing... or it is automatically on all the time.

    Now seriously, a missile like the 3M54 would give little more than 10 seconds to the weapon systems on the ship to detect, get a firing solution and launch before being hit. For their own good, I hope they have improved massively in their reaction time.

    This was in the late 1980s and they were crowing about it being a phased array radar that could identify targets by counting the blades in their jet engines to determine what the target was... but mistook and Airbus for an F-14.

    More importantly mistook a climbing Airbus for a descending F-14....

    ABM on ships like S-500 isn't needed for Russia since they don't have bases around the world to protect them. Their mainland is protected by land based systems which are better positionned and connected to the ground based OTH radars that see better than any ship mounted radar.

    Their cruisers will still get them (maybe their new ones not upgraded ones) for their anti satellite capability and anti carrier ballistic weapons like those belonging to China.

    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    Not really.... the US system includes a range of different systems some of which are very limited as to which missiles they can carry... most of them started out as Standard launch tubes replacing arm launchers but because Standard is very long because it has a solid rocket booster it was a long narrow missile like Tomahawk and harpoon and ASROC so they started combining them in missile tubes but each version has different capabilities.

    The Russians have the advantage that the Redut system is shorter so can be located in more places on the ship where the longer UKSK wont fit.

    Ideally having a UKSK-M that takes SAMS as well means no more SAM launch tubes and just UKSK-M tubes... but more of them... but it makes sense to still have SAM tubes because for example TOR tubes are small and could be located in shallow areas no other system would fit so you don't waste bigger tubes with little short missiles that barely fill a quarter of their depth.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    There is no situation where you would not want to carry both you always need attack weapons and you always need SAMs.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.

    The size of their tubes limits their options for future missiles.

    Larger calibre tubes means Russia has less tubes but can use bigger higher performing weapons too.

    You don't need 200 launch tubes if Zircon is going to get through most of the time.... you do need 200 launch tubes when your standard anti ship missile is Harpoon.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    They have a large number of different vertical launch tubes and most can't pack any missile.
    The_Observer
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    Post  The_Observer Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:00 pm

    Russia to lay down 6 vessels on Victory day.

    2 955A Borei-class subs
    2 Improved Kilos
    2 20380 Corvettes

    Russian shipbuilders will mark Victory Day by laying down six ships and submarines. This was reported to TASS by a source in the shipbuilding industry.
    “In early May, two Project 955A Borey-A nuclear-powered submarine missile cruisers, two Project 20380 corvettes, and two Project 636.3 submarines will be laid down,” he said.

    According to the interlocutor of the agency, two strategic submarines will be laid down at Sevmash, two corvettes at the Amur shipyard, two submarines of the Varshavyanka project at the Admiralty Shipyards (all enterprises are part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation).

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11250123

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm

    Ukraine in response will inflate six rafts clown

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:10 pm

    LMFS wrote:Ukraine in response will inflate six rafts clown
    No, just 4. One sank, and one was stolen. clown clown

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    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:31 pm

    Isos wrote:No genius. It just can't carry russian big missiles. They can create a supersonic missile that fits in their VLS if they want to. But they are not interested by supersonic missiles.

    Rrdut is is for small AD missiles. UKSK is for cruise missiles and can't carry any AD missiles.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    It's not just a matter of size but also intergration/software/connections.

    US can pack AD missiles with 300km range, quad pack shorter range missiles, long range tomahawks and new stealthy anti ship missile. That's certainly not "only light missiles".

    The VLS dimensions drive the ship design, not the other way around.

    The USA VLS systems built around SAM missiles, in the 80s.

    These simply can't accomodate bigger , long range anti ship , high peed missiles.

    And it is not a problem of "you will make it work", if the diameter and lenght is not there the end result air breathing missile won't have warhead, or has only insiginficant range. Basic engineering problems.


    Same like saying if a mig 21 can have the same capability like a su-35. The dimensions not there.
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    Post  Isos Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:38 pm

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:58 pm

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    Yes and I read somewhere they have given out contracts to look into increasing the characteristics/density of the propulsion material that can increase range as well as speed keeping the profile of the recent launchers. Russian and US stuff is not exactly one to one just like Russian liquid engines being better lb on lb than US ones and US having edge on some other things.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:58 pm

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    There is incremental improvement regards of connections, new types of missiles and so on.

    The dimensions of the cansiters the same, 40+ years design.

    The same true for the Virignia vs Yassen, the submarine design driven by the need to accomodate the bigger air breathing supersonic missiles.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:01 pm

    The_Observer wrote:Russia to lay down 6 vessels on Victory day.

    2 955A Borei-class subs
    2 Improved Kilos
    2 20380 Corvettes
    .................
    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11250123

    Excellent

    With one Yasen and Khabarovsk out of the shed soon it frees up space to lay down couple of Yasen-class boats next year


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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:30 am

    The_Observer wrote:Russia to lay down 6 vessels on Victory day.

    2 955A Borei-class subs
    2 Improved Kilos
    2 20380 Corvettes

    Russian shipbuilders will mark Victory Day by laying down six ships and submarines. This was reported to TASS by a source in the shipbuilding industry.
    “In early May, two Project 955A Borey-A nuclear-powered submarine missile cruisers, two Project 20380 corvettes, and two Project 636.3 submarines will be laid down,” he said.

    According to the interlocutor of the agency, two strategic submarines will be laid down at Sevmash, two corvettes at the Amur shipyard, two submarines of the Varshavyanka project at the Admiralty Shipyards (all enterprises are part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation).

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11250123
    it would have been nice to hear also 2 additional 22350 frigates, but probably Severnaya veef has no additional capabilities and they have not yet assigned another shipyard to take some of the frigates building
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:48 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:......
    it would have been nice to hear also 2 additional 22350 frigates, but probably Severnaya veef has no additional capabilities and they have not yet assigned another shipyard to take some of the frigates building

    I honestly gave up on expecting anything bigger than corvettes coming from Russia in more than very low double digits over period of decades

    22350 will probably be capped soon, they don't seem to be able to handle surface warship construction at all, this thing is finished, whatever they say they plan next will not move past scale model stage (Krylov tradition)

    Luckily subs and coastal aviation are the winning combo anyway but still it's pretty pathetic about frigates being jammed in just one shipyard

    If supposedly best one can't handle it then others don't have a chance anyway

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    Post  LMFS Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:19 am

    GarryB wrote:But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.

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