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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible 28/03/21, 07:09 pm

    When Russian Corvettes have better weapons than frigates of NATO, I would say they can compensate.

    So long as Russia increases such Corvettes, frigates and subs (can be SSK's), they can project power. Especially if they station such ships at new established bases (Sudan and Syria).

    Those big fancy ships are nice easy targets for anti ship missiles and drones. So the Russians are going another route - small, fast and heavy puncher. It will be cheaper and better in long run. Big ships are nice to have in order to launch a bunch of missiles, but few of them is fine for Russia

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 28/03/21, 08:27 pm

    Isos wrote:Nakhimov is almost finished and they decided this now which could mean they are not happy with the upgrade.

    Time and cost probably close to building a new cruiser.

    PtG could end up being scraped too and a new class could arrive sooner than expected.

    PtG has at least 20 years of service in front of her. It is possible that they could do a less extensive modernisation than the one for Admiral Nakhimov but it makes no sense to scrap it. Furthermore the shipyard involved with her overhaul/upgrade is not one of those that will be building new frigates (22350) destroyers (22350M) or nuclear cruisers (leader class) or the one that will be building aircraft carriers so it is just a matter of time and money.
    Of course personnel and resources pay a role on this, but I believe PtG modernisation will not affect negatively the plans for building new long range ships.



    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot 29/03/21, 03:36 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:PtG has at least 20 years of service in front of her. It is possible that they could do a less extensive modernisation than the one for Admiral Nakhimov but it makes no sense to scrap it. Furthermore the shipyard involved with her overhaul/upgrade is not one of those that will be building new frigates (22350) destroyers (22350M) or nuclear cruisers (leader class) or the one that will be building aircraft carriers so it is just a matter of time and money.
    Of course personnel and resources pay a role on this, but I believe PtG modernisation will not affect negatively the plans for building new long range ships.

    I doubt the modernization of PtG would take the same amount of time as the Nakhimov's. I wouldn't be surprised if they could do it in half the time.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon 29/03/21, 03:56 am

    lancelot wrote:...I doubt the modernization of PtG would take the same amount of time as the Nakhimov's. I wouldn't be surprised if they could do it in half the time.

    They know that thing in and out and have been maintaining it perfectly 24/7

    Plus they have upgrade instruction manual now, no more learning on the go

    It's half the time easy

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 29/03/21, 07:37 am

    miketheterrible wrote:When Russian Corvettes have better weapons than frigates of NATO, I would say they can compensate.

    So long as Russia increases such Corvettes, frigates and subs (can be SSK's), they can project power. Especially if they station such ships at new established bases (Sudan and Syria).

    Those big fancy ships are nice easy targets for anti ship missiles and drones.  So the Russians are going another route - small, fast and heavy puncher.  It will be cheaper and better in long run.  Big ships are nice to have in order to launch a bunch of missiles, but few of them is fine for Russia

    If you look at the Soviet Navy from the cold war they didn't really have Frigates... the Krivaks were mainly MVD or KBG operated vessels... they had a lot of single purpose corvettes with torpedos or anti ship missiles but they were too small to be more than single use boats.

    Their current design Corvettes actually are rather versatile... no cold war Soviet ship of any size could carry conventional land attack cruise missiles... a modern corvette with a UKSK launch system can carry a mix of anti sub and anti ship and land attack missiles at once and their communications and electronics are actually better than those fitted to Kirov class ships, though obviously their sensors are much smaller.

    The point is that the new corvettes are more capable and more versatile and their new Frigates are just scaled up versions with more missile tubes and bigger radars and decent sonar systems.

    One corvette might be useless against a HATO sub because it lacks a decent sonar, but a frigate and two or three corvettes each carrying anti sub missiles can work together with onboard helicopters as a very effective networked force that works together to hunt and kill submarines... and with sea bed sonar arrays and land based MPAs they will be even more capable along with satellite based heat sensing satellites that can detect sub wakes on the water surface as they move stirring up the cold water at depths as it moves.

    The point is that production of corvettes and frigates needs to get under way and they can serve in and around Russia for all of Russias needs.

    I would expect a few foreign navies will be looking at them thinking about a purchase too.

    They have started building two 40K ton helicopter carriers... their corvettes and frigates are amazing compared with their own cold war equivalents and even today with HATO equivalents on one on one terms... HATO has the advantage of numbers and cooperation between numbers of navies.

    The new Corvettes and Frigates have decent self defence capacity but they are too small to protect other ships... they would essentially only be able to protect themselves.

    A destroyer and a cruiser sized ship is needed because these ships are large enough to operate at distance from Russia for useful periods of time... a corvette or frigate on the other hand will just get good at what they are doing and have to return to be replaced with another ship and spend two or three weeks on station but perhaps two weeks to get there and two weeks to get home for their 6-7 week endurance. A bigger ship... an upgraded older ship for now, but later custom designed modern ships can remain for much longer periods... support ships can bring relief crews for very long period operations if needed, but destroyers and cruisers are what you need to support most long range long period operations with helicopter landing ships and such operations need AWACS and fighter CAP support to make them effective and safe.

    Subs don't project power.

    What the UK subs did in the Falklands war shows what limited systems they are... they hide and hunt, but either kill or don't kill.

    It was the threat of the SSN that prevented Argentina from deploying their navy which made british SSNs very very valuable, but equally the Brits were rather constantly afraid the Argentinians would use their SSKs to try to sink ships and subs so their carriers hung back from the islands and continuously swept for subs to protect their carriers... most of the ships in their fleet had poor anti sub capability.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 29/03/21, 07:42 am

    They know that thing in and out and have been maintaining it perfectly 24/7

    Plus they have upgrade instruction manual now, no more learning on the go

    It's half the time easy

    The whole idea behind having modular weapons and sensors etc etc and fully multirole ships instead of several different specialist types was to enable mass production to be faster and cheaper because they can all be the same and they should be able to produce them in numbers quickly and efficiently once everything is proven to work properly and everything is Russian made and not subject to sanctions.

    Getting to that point now so hopefully large orders for Corvettes and Frigates... the corvettes are small so hard to make them fully multirole so because 5 different fleets have different needs and conditions then having a couple of different corvette types makes sense, but frigates are big enough that one frigate type should do.

    And of course the new destroyers and new cruisers should just be one design each... probably similar and the latter a scaled up version of the former with bigger radar and bigger sonar and S-500s and ready to defend the entire group of ships they operate just like S-400 batteries defend an area of a circle 800km across from enemy airpower.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole 30/03/21, 11:58 pm

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 21 Exu2aq10
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 21 Exu2bh10
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 21 Exu2dq10
    Eyes and ears for the Med Flottilla.

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow 31/03/21, 01:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    It was the threat of the SSN that prevented Argentina from deploying their navy which made british SSNs very very valuable, but equally the Brits were rather constantly afraid the Argentinians would use their SSKs to try to sink ships and subs so their carriers hung back from the islands and continuously swept for subs to protect their carriers... most of the ships in their fleet had poor anti sub capability.

    The Russian navy also has a problem with the small number of nuclear submarines. Russia currently has two modern 885 / M and a few 971,945 units. Additionally, several 949As. Compared to the US underwater fleet, this is not much.

    Only 688I USA ships have 23 submarines, 688 submarines with VLS another 8. You can add the older 688Is. Russia only has a few submarines of tier 688I or better. This group also includes 18 Virginia class and 3 Seawolf. This makes over 50 SSNs. When you count your allies, there's even more. With such a disproportion, Western forces can mess up a lot even in the vicinity of Russia, especially the Arctic, Barents. Russia does not have the strength and means to fight such powerful SSN forces even in the vicinity of its territorial waters. Western SSNs may track and attempt to destroy Russian frigates and Corvettes operating in the northern waters. Such an advantage in the SSN may significantly hinder the Russian defensive actions in the areas of their borders and the protection of their SSBN.

    I wonder if Russia will order more 885M submarines. It shouldn't end up in a series of 9 units.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 31/03/21, 02:55 pm

    The USN has a much bigger problem at hand: the rapid and irreversible decline of its available human capital. Give it a few years and the superior Assabiyah Russian sailors should mop the floor with the Great Mutt Fleet.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole 31/03/21, 03:09 pm

    1. Half of the american subs are in urgent need of maintenance.
    2. Most of these subs are bound to protect carriers/assauls ships.
    3. They have to keep at least 2/3 of the subs to "protect" them against China, Iran and all those other evil-doers aound the world.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 01/04/21, 06:49 am

    The Russian navy also has a problem with the small number of nuclear submarines. Russia currently has two modern 885 / M and a few 971,945 units. Additionally, several 949As. Compared to the US underwater fleet, this is not much.

    Why do you think that is a problem?

    Half or all of the current US submarines have substandard steel hulls so operating in the arctic is going to be literally russian roulette for them.

    At best Russia will have one or two carrier groups to operate and a few areas of sea around its coastline where it would benefit from having nuclear sub support... Russia does not have to police the world and be able to interdict at a moments notice... it does not need hundreds of submarines.

    It also has the enormous advantage of having SSKs that can operate in shallow waters much more cheaply and efficiently than SSNs can which is a serious gap in Americas inventory.

    Only 688I USA ships have 23 submarines, 688 submarines with VLS another 8. You can add the older 688Is. Russia only has a few submarines of tier 688I or better.

    In shallow waters near Russia a Kilo class SSN is quieter and can carry a much wider array of useful weapons... the LA class carries torpedos and Tomahawks... big fricken deal...

    Late model Victor class SSNs are already as good as the LA class.

    This group also includes 18 Virginia class and 3 Seawolf. This makes over 50 SSNs. When you count your allies, there's even more.

    That is true, but who cares? With modern anti sub sonars and sea bed arrays how long would those noisy nukes last in Russian waters anyway. More to the point what can they do... they only have tomahawks and torpedos... subsonic easy to intercept missiles even a single TOR battery would stop the entire inventory from a LA class sub, and with regards to torpedos they have all sorts of systems to deal with those too...

    With such a disproportion, Western forces can mess up a lot even in the vicinity of Russia, especially the Arctic, Barents. Russia does not have the strength and means to fight such powerful SSN forces even in the vicinity of its territorial waters

    I would say they are rather well equipped and getting better all the time, but the response to a US sub sinking a Russian ship in the arctic wont be hunting down that sub... it will be directing nuclear weapons at US and EU targets... you do understand sinking some ones ships is an act of war...

    The best force to fight a powerful SSN force on your doorstep is an SSK like a Lada class with modern state of the art electronics and systems but also quiet electric operation...

    The only way those US subs could find a Lada is with active sonar... and then they suddenly stop being hard targets too.

    Western SSNs may track and attempt to destroy Russian frigates and Corvettes operating in the northern waters. Such an advantage in the SSN may significantly hinder the Russian defensive actions in the areas of their borders and the protection of their SSBN.

    It is funny you talk about submarines... you do realise that 10 years ago it would be AEGIS class cruisers and carrier groups dominating the waters around Russia... but now they are no longer useful.... trillions of dollars of US and HATO surface fleets rendered useless because Russian corvettes and frigates can carry supersonic and soon hypersonic anti ship missiles that US and HATO defences can't deal with...

    Lada and then Kalina class SSKs are an ideal answer to big expensive western subs threatening Russian borders...

    I wonder if Russia will order more 885M submarines. It shouldn't end up in a series of 9 units.

    I wonder how pro US and pro HATO fanboys are feeling right now with their magnificent trillion dollar fleets reduced to useless and having to rely on trillion dollar submarines to threaten corvettes and frigates.... hilarious... talk about Russia getting value for money...

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 01/04/21, 09:42 am

    Hole wrote:1. Half of the american subs are in urgent need of maintenance.
    2. Most of these subs are bound to protect carriers/assauls ships.
    3. They have to keep at least 2/3 of the subs to "protect" them against China, Iran and all those other evil-doers aound the world.

    I didn't realize you had access to classified information about US Nuclear Submarine maintenance...

    Oh wait...you don't?

    Oh right you're talking straight out your ass~.

    The moronic shit people say on this forum, its like a bad comedy show.
    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 01/04/21, 06:48 pm

    Have any of you seen the new ultra huge sonar nuke powered attack sub? Sonar is impressively huge.

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 21 9da86ca511f487fd59674364fcb01360

    https://th.bing.com/th/id/R4e4cd026818e635a089e8d25cfef2358?rik=HVJBwlCP1Mxrcw&riu=http%3a%2f%2faemstatic-ww2.azureedge.net%2fcontent%2fdam%2fmae%2fonline-articles%2f2017%2f06%2f688+submarine+26+June+2017.jpg&ehk=oIxOsyq9h4xYekMgrzx0GZliRVBYyQA%2bUmw%2bK6TPcWM%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw

    Crazy huge they claim to hear anyone and anything first. Not trying to start a battle, guys, just info.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon 01/04/21, 07:09 pm

    I called and predicted this some years back:

    Putin supported the idea of ​​nationalizing defense enterprises that do not fulfill state defense orders
    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 21 1617195175_5

    Today, a general agreement was signed between employers, trade unions and the government of the Russian Federation for a period until 2023. President Vladimir Putin also took part in the signing ceremony of this document. One of the topics that was discussed at the same time was the topic of the work of defense enterprises.

    In particular, it was noted that there are still enterprises in the country that do not fully fulfill their obligations under the state defense order (SDO). As a result, when funds from government customers are fully transferred to the accounts of these enterprises, the state defense order is implemented with failures - the work can be postponed to a later date, not executed in full for the reporting period.

    In such a situation, as the Kremlin press service notes, an idea was expressed about the possible nationalization of enterprises that do not ensure the fulfillment of the state defense order. Moreover, interestingly, such a proposal was made by the main FNPR (Federation of Independent Trade Unions of the Russian Federation) Mikhail Shmakov.

    The Kremlin press service reports that President Vladimir Putin supported such a proposal.

    According to the head of state, such a mechanism is possible in relation to malicious non-executors of the state defense order.

    Thus, a kind of revision of the results of privatization is still possible. At this stage, we are talking about defense enterprises, the owners of which cannot actually fulfill their obligations to service orders from the state.

    https://en.topwar.ru/181490-putin-podderzhal-ideju-nacionalizacii-predprijatij-oboronnoj-sfery-ne-ispolnjajuschih-gosoboronzakaz.html

    What's interesting is that both the trade unions as well as VVP supports nationalizing the enterprises that failed state orders, and the vast majority of those are in the naval sector. I advocated for this a few years back as the proper remedy to get their acts together.
    bren_tann
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    Post  bren_tann 01/04/21, 07:37 pm

    Currently Russia operates 1 Yasen. The second one Kazan should be commissioned in the next few years.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole 01/04/21, 11:35 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:1. Half of the american subs are in urgent need of maintenance.
    2. Most of these subs are bound to protect carriers/assauls ships.
    3. They have to keep at least 2/3 of the subs to "protect" them against China, Iran and all those other evil-doers aound the world.

    I didn't realize you had access to classified information about US Nuclear Submarine maintenance...

    Oh wait...you don't?

    Oh right you're talking straight out your ass~.

    The moronic shit people say on this forum, its like a bad comedy show.

    I guess a genius like you can search the net for some of the reports that came out the last few years from different agencies/offices/think tanks that revealed the dire straits in which the maintenance of ships/subs and planes in all of the american forces is.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot 02/04/21, 04:41 am

    Arrow wrote:The Russian navy also has a problem with the small number of nuclear submarines. Russia currently has two modern 885 / M and a few 971,945 units. Additionally, several 949As. Compared to the US underwater fleet, this is not much.

    Only 688I USA ships have 23 submarines, 688 submarines with VLS another 8. You can add the older 688Is. Russia only has a few submarines of tier 688I or better. This group also includes 18 Virginia class and 3 Seawolf. This makes over 50 SSNs. When you count your allies, there's even more. With such a disproportion, Western forces can mess up a lot even in the vicinity of Russia, especially the Arctic, Barents. Russia does not have the strength and means to fight such powerful SSN forces even in the vicinity of its territorial waters. Western SSNs may track and attempt to destroy Russian frigates and Corvettes operating in the northern waters. Such an advantage in the SSN may significantly hinder the Russian defensive actions in the areas of their borders and the protection of their SSBN.

    I wonder if Russia will order more 885M submarines. It shouldn't end up in a series of 9 units.

    I will have to refrain what others said here. This ignores the quite capable Russian conventional submarine fleet, like the Kilos, which the US does not have. Russia has several older nuclear attack submarines either active, in reserve or in refit, like Akula, Sierra, and Victor types. Some of which would be highly effective when modernized and into service. A lot of the Akulas were only launched in the 1990s and had minimal use so are in good shape. A lot of these are being refit with Kalibr naval attack missiles, even the Kilo conventional submarines can often fire Kalibr, and Russia is building 6x Yasen types at a time.

    There are a lot of reports that the 688i submarines are in a less than optimal condition being several decades old. At least a decade older than the Akulas and unlike the Akulas kept into active service for most of this time. The Virginias, while a successful design, recently were in the news because of a scandal where substandard steel was supplied to build them so they cannot dive at the project depth because the hull cannot withstand the stress. Their long term hull integrity is also questionable. This had been going on for such a long time the specialist responsible had already retired by the time it was discovered. So you can see how far the institutional rot has gone there.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 02/04/21, 06:15 am

    Hole wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:1. Half of the american subs are in urgent need of maintenance.
    2. Most of these subs are bound to protect carriers/assauls ships.
    3. They have to keep at least 2/3 of the subs to "protect" them against China, Iran and all those other evil-doers aound the world.

    I didn't realize you had access to classified information about US Nuclear Submarine maintenance...

    Oh wait...you don't?

    Oh right you're talking straight out your ass~.

    The moronic shit people say on this forum, its like a bad comedy show.

    I guess a genius like you can search the net for some of the reports that came out the last few years from different agencies/offices/think tanks that revealed the dire straits in which the maintenance of ships/subs and planes in all of the american forces is.

    Oh really? what offices and agencies, also "think tanks" LOL those don't matter at all as they aren't given such information and even if they do they aren't allowed to comment on it to the public, so any claims of such are false and bogus.

    So show me buddy what US agencies and offices state half the US sub fleet is in need of dire maintenance

    I'll be waiting.

    the reality is you just an online anti-US troll spouting lies and other crap because it makes you happy to think so. That's all this is, fact is there is no evidence of this claim maybe some anti us sources have stated this but that's like me taking everything that comes out of the pentagon has fact.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman 02/04/21, 07:06 am

    bren_tann wrote:Currently Russia operates 1 Yasen. The second one Kazan should be commissioned in the next few years.

    The Yasen is the su 57m of submarines.

    They have 5 Akula 3's in service and another handfull coming in from being modernized.

    Just because there's 1 Yasen doesn't mean the fleet is a slouch
    bren_tann
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    Post  bren_tann 02/04/21, 07:31 am

    Backman wrote:
    bren_tann wrote:Currently Russia operates 1 Yasen. The second one Kazan should be commissioned in the next few years.

    The Yasen is the su 57m of submarines.

    They have 5 Akula 3's in service and another handfull coming in from being modernized.

    Just because there's 1 Yasen doesn't mean the fleet is a slouch

    Yasen lacks pump jet. The upcoming Khabarovsk should be able to go toe to toe with Seawolf / Virginia. In any event, Russia needs 10 Yasen and 10 Khabarovsk in order to be able to challenge America in undersea.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman 02/04/21, 07:36 am

    [quote="SeigSoloyvov"]
    Hole wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:1. Half of the american subs are in urgent need of maintenance.
    2. Most of these subs are bound to protect carriers/assauls ships.
    3. They have to keep at least 2/3 of the subs to "protect" them against China, Iran and all those other evil-doers aound the world.

    I diis forum, its like a bad comedy show.



    the reality is you just an online anti-US troll spouting lies and other crap because it makes you happy to think so. That's all this is, fact is there is no evidence of this claim maybe some anti us sources have stated this but that's like me taking everything that comes out of the pentagon has fact.

    There has been stories in the media the last couple years that aren't typical of the USN.

    Bedbugs found on US Navy submarine USS Connecticut

    (CNN)The USS Connecticut, one of the most elite submarines in the US Navy, was infested with bedbugs, and some crew members chose to sleep in their cars.
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/11/us/bedbugs-navy-submarine-trnd/index.html

    With the Navy’s submarine maintenance woes, there may yet be hope
    https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/navy-league/2019/05/08/among-the-navys-submarine-maintenance-woes-there-may-yet-be-hope/

    The hapless Boise returned from a patrol in 2015, and it hasn’t gone back on patrol since. The inactivity has caused Boise to lose its dive certification, one of three attack subs in the fleet currently unable to submerge. It’s been four years and counting, and now it wasn’t even funded in the Navy’s fiscal 2020 budget request.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman 02/04/21, 07:45 am

    bren_tann wrote:
    Backman wrote:
    bren_tann wrote:Currently Russia operates 1 Yasen. The second one Kazan should be commissioned in the next few years.

    The Yasen is the su 57m of submarines.

    They have 5 Akula 3's in service and another handfull coming in from being modernized.

    Just because there's 1 Yasen doesn't mean the fleet is a slouch

    Yasen lacks pump jet. The upcoming Khabarovsk should be able to go toe to toe with Seawolf / Virginia. In any event, Russia needs 10 Yasen and 10 Khabarovsk in order to be able to challenge America in undersea.

    Russia had a Kilo class submarine with a pump jet in 1990.

    It was a design choice. But you are sitting here saying that pump jet is superior full stop. Mad It isn't. If it was, the Yasen would have a pump jet.

    First, pump jets don’t necessary mean quieter running. Propeller blade shape is actually more important, reportedly. Second, most common form of a pump jet employed in submarines, the ducted propeller, is most advantageous at lower speeds, about up to 10 knots, and rapidly lose efficiency above that level, requiring putting more power to the propeller, which actually defeats the noise advantage, as more power = more noise generated by the machinery. So the pump jet is best suitable for the somewhat slow-running subs like boomers, and not much so for attack subs. And, indeed, Russian boomers use pump jets since the project 941 (Typhoon/Akula class), but Yasen trades a somewhat higher noise of the screw for higher efficiency at speed, which allows it to use less power at the same speed. Less power=quieter at that speed.

    In submarines design, you pick a speed range, and you pick your quiet level.

    BTW, many subs in the same class can have different propellers and therefore are optimized for different missions. The operational depth of the sub has a lot to do with choice also. Water is more compressed at depth so less cavitation anyway.

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    Post  Big_Gazza 02/04/21, 07:56 am

    Backman wrote:
    It was a design choice. But you are sitting here saying that pump jet is superior full stop. Mad  It isn't. If it was, the Yasen would have a pump jet.

    As I've said a few times, pump-jets are good at reducing cavitation noise, but given that russian subs cruise deeper in colder waters, that is not the problem for them as it is with US subs with shallower operating depths running in warm waters including the tropics.

    Agree especially in one key aspect - if pump jets were all they are cracked up to be, then the Yasens would have too. The fact that they don't (while the Boreis do) is a clear indicator that other factors come into play, not just the feeings of murican armchair admirals and fan-bois. Laughing

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    Post  Big_Gazza 02/04/21, 08:01 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:Have any of you seen the new ultra huge sonar nuke powered attack sub?  Sonar is impressively huge.

    Is it any bigger than the spherical array in the Severodvinsk, the MGK-600? I guess we can't tell as AFAIK there are no public images of it, but it certainly won't be any smaller.
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    Post  Big_Gazza 02/04/21, 08:07 am

    bren_tann wrote:Currently Russia operates 1 Yasen. The second one Kazan should be commissioned in the next few years.

    Kazan will likely be in service before the years end, and Novosibirsk stands a reasonable chance of being done with trials in the same timescale.  In 2022 we'll see both Krasnoyarsk and Arkhangelsk finishing trials.

    With some luck that will be 1x 855 and 4x 855M by end-2022 or early 2023.  Thats a much better prospect than you are alluding too. Deliberate misinfo attempt or genuine error?... Hmmm...

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