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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:08 am

    It is indeed a pity to scrap the Lazarev, but on the positive side, the less Orlans they have, the more Liders they need... Wink

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:42 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Where did you get this from?

    Lazarev was NEVER getting upgraded, neither is the Ushakov

    Nakhimov will be done in couple of years and PtG is going in next for that exact same upgrade  


    I'm just guessing.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:09 am

    Isos wrote:Nakhimov is almost finished and they decided this now which could mean they are not happy with the upgrade.

    Time and cost probably close to building a new cruiser.

    PtG could end up being scraped too and a new class could arrive sooner than expected.

    Yer off yer friggin rockers...  PtG could be scrapped????  Suspect   Put down the crack pipe.

    As for the Rus navy being "not happy with the upgrade", the Nakhimov is still fitting out but you want to leap and call it a failure?  I expect the brass might be unhappy with the time and cost escalations but that is always the risk with such a large ship undergoing complex deep modernisation.   I don't think we should be prejudicing the outcome just yet....

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:29 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Where did you get this from?

    Lazarev was NEVER getting upgraded, neither is the Ushakov

    Nakhimov will be done in couple of years and PtG is going in next for that exact same upgrade  


    I'm just guessing.

    Well you would be off the mark

    Nakhimov took a while but it's because it was sitting idle for decades and nobody knew exactly what situation was inside

    PtG is different story, it's in service and there isn't a single thing about it that could surprise them, they know every single detail of that ship

    Even if paint is chipped funny somewhere they know about it

    PtG will be done on half the time Nakhimov took



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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:06 am

    Heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Lazarev" sent for scrapping

    It was the available Orlan in the worst condition... no great surprise they decided it was not worth keeping.

    Nakhimov is almost finished and they decided this now which could mean they are not happy with the upgrade.

    Or they realised with just one CV they don't actually need three Orlan class cruisers right now and instead of wasting money upgrading everything that getting two Orlans upgraded and maybe a few Slavas will be plenty for the time being and their focus should be on producing Corvettes and Frigates and getting a Destroy design laid down and progress made in getting those ready for production.

    Time and cost probably close to building a new cruiser.

    Unlikely, and largely irrelevant as no new cruisers are likely to be laid down in the next 5 years anyway, so the choice is not upgrade or new... it is upgrade or not.

    PtG could end up being scraped too and a new class could arrive sooner than expected.

    I don't think so... scrapping is not exactly cheap or quick either... I rather suspect the viable ships that can be useful will get minor upgrades and will be used until there are replacements for them.

    I hope they don't waste time trying to turn them into super ships with arsenal ship levels of missile tubes and crap on them.... this is an opportunity to test new large radar and sonar arrays that should be in development for destroyer and cruiser projects in the near future.

    They don't need 500 plus missile tubes... they are not intended to win WWIII single handedly... that is just stupid and a waste of money.

    These are big vessels which should have good endurance and global operational capability which the frigates and corvettes of the Russian Navy currently lack.

    They are building new helicopter carriers and have a CV, their use as escorts for these ships is pretty obvious.

    They need new support ships and more corvettes and frigates to defend local waters and to allow older ships to retire in dignity.

    I read that PTG will not get the upgrade that Nakhimov got. So looks like its a one off.

    Not sure how that decision could have been made yet considering the lack of experience using the Nakhimov... I mean the real testing doesn't start till it is actually in the water.

    The upgrades are expensive because the equipment going in to these ships is all brand new, but by the time they are making there new Destroyers and Cruisers this equipment will be standard and will be getting fitted to all ships across the board as upgrades for the older models.

    Is Russia better off building 3 10K ton ships vs one 30K ton mega cruiser or even 4 x7K ton Gorshkov + large destroyers?

    The reality is that they need both destroyers and cruisers if they want decent escorts for helicopter carriers and the Kuznetsov... the improvement in electronics from the cold war period to now is amazing but it does not make a Corvette into a destroyer nor a Frigate into a Cruiser... they wont be building ships bigger than the Kirovs, but they will likely be close to 20K ton to fit the air defence systems needed to defend a group of ships... which is what a cruiser is for.

    I think we are seeing the answer.

    The Nakhimov is not even back at sea, they need to test it and get some experience with it before making any serious decisions regarding the Russian Navys future.

    It makes sense to have ships with different level upgrades so you can determine which is better... they might find both are good enough for the roles they have planned for these ships for all we know.

    the deck is hardly pitching its very very minor movements, floating segments would be wildly moving around much worse

    Why do you think floating segments could not be rigidly linked together so they didn't move independently of each other?

    It is indeed a pity to scrap the Lazarev, but on the positive side, the less Orlans they have, the more Liders they need...

    It is a handsome ship, but they probably don't need three of them plus potentially three Slavas... right now.

    PtG will be done on half the time Nakhimov took

    Even if it takes the same amount of time... it is still ten years faster than a brand spanking new cruiser designed from scratch would take.

    I agree it will be faster and I hope they take the opportunity to upgrade the radar and sonar equipment so that next generation large sized sets can be tested on a real ship so they will be able to test new systems before they go on Destroyers and Cruisers they will be planning to build next.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:47 am

    I think its the sheer cost/benefit equation. What can they do producing new ships vs tying up facilties for years and engineering teams to come up with solutions to fix an old ship vs just build more new platforms at a higher rate.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:29 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Nakhimov is almost finished and they decided this now which could mean they are not happy with the upgrade.

    Time and cost probably close to building a new cruiser.

    PtG could end up being scraped too and a new class could arrive sooner than expected.

    Yer off yer friggin rockers...  PtG could be scrapped????  Suspect   Put down the crack pipe.

    As for the Rus navy being "not happy with the upgrade", the Nakhimov is still fitting out but you want to leap and call it a failure?  I expect the brass might be unhappy with the time and cost escalations but that is always the risk with such a large ship undergoing complex deep modernisation.   I don't think we should be prejudicing the outcome just yet....

    They uppgraded Nakhimov.
    They operated Ptg.
    They gain experience building Steregoushchy.
    They gain experience building Gorshkov.
    They are working on a huge Gorshkov.

    IMO with all that above they could have came to the conclusion that a new cruiser or more Gorshkov M destroyers is better than upgrading Kirovs if the time and price of the upgrade is close or same as building a new class.

    PtG could just be upgraded with new radar and digital stuff to keep it another decade. They did that for a Slava class ship.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:41 pm

    Neustrashimy class (Soviet designation Project 11540) "Yastreb" ship will return to the fleet in 2021

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10738515
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:05 am

    George1 wrote:Neustrashimy class (Soviet designation Project 11540) "Yastreb" ship will return to the fleet in 2021

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10738515

    Excellent news, it's was about time thumbsup

    It's ​sister ship Yaroslav Mudrii has been more than working off the money invested in it and another one of these will be excellent addition to the fleet

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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:46 am

    Will this one be "Kaliberized" or Kalibrated?
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:59 am

    mnztr wrote:Will this one be "Kaliberized" or Kalibrated?

    Uranized I'm guessing
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:33 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Will this one be "Kaliberized" or Kalibrated?

    Uranized I'm guessing

    Correct, just like the first one
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:56 am

    The point is that no level of upgrade for Kirov class ships will mean they wont need brand new design Cruisers when they start laying down a CVN.

    They are going to need destroyers and new build cruisers... if they didn't want cruisers then there would be no point upgrading the two Orlan class ships and Slava class ships.

    Their upgrades to old cold war destroyers Udaloy and Sovremmeny are essentially turning them into Frigate equivalent ships so the real gap is long range ships so two upgraded orlans and three upgraded or about to be upgraded Slavas means they have ships they can send with the Kuznetsov and these new helicopter carriers when they are back in the water.

    The upgraded Udaloy and Sov ships might be classed as frigates but they have the size and capacity for long range operations so they could be used as escorts on longer trips and of course the upgraded cruisers are designed for defending themselves and ships they are operating with... which is what corvettes and frigates lack.

    Once the current ships that are worth upgrading get upgraded and production of corvettes and frigates is serialised and hopefully putting out new ships to replace the older and unupgraded models then they can start on a destroyer template and perhaps a scaled up cruiser template for real world testing and trouble shooting...

    I expect the destroyers and cruisers to be nuclear powered but not bigger than the Kirov... probably 12-14K tons for the destroyer and 18-20K tons for the new cruisers...

    Good to see they are getting ships into service... hopefully they ramp up production of the Corvettes and Frigates and lay down at least a destroyer in addition to an upgraded frigate.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:07 am

    Fleet modernization program is bearing fruit

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:34 am


    Future museum showcasing the K-3 the first Soviet nuclear submarine in Kronstadt

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 20 340i246y8hk61

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:51 am

    With a long-range sight: enemy ships will be noticed hundreds of kilometers away

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 20 S-dalnim-pricelom-korabli-protivnika-zametyat-za-sotni-kilometrov-70jred90-1614724501.t

    Naval aviation will be connected to"killer" networks. The Navy will receive a unique automated control system (ACS). Thanks to the new technology, planes, helicopters and drones will be able to transmit and receive coordinates and parameters of targets from ships, submarines and ground-based surveillance systems in real time. After that, the detected enemy objects will be destroyed by all available means. Thus, according to experts, the fleet will be able to create continuous damage zones with an area of hundreds or even thousands of kilometers. This automated control system is particularly effective in the case of using hypersonic systems "Zircon"and " Dagger".

    Naval aviation will be connected to"killer" networks. The Navy will receive a unique automated control system (ACS). Thanks to the new technology, planes, helicopters and drones will be able to transmit and receive coordinates and parameters of targets from ships, submarines and ground-based surveillance systems in real time. After that, the detected enemy objects will be destroyed by all available means. Thus, according to experts, the fleet will be able to create continuous damage zones with an area of hundreds or even thousands of kilometers. This automated control system is particularly effective in the case of using hypersonic systems "Zircon"and " Dagger".

    Target designation network

    As sources in the military Department told Izvestia, currently the automated control system for naval aviation (MA) is in a high degree of readiness. It is expected that its first samples will be delivered to the troops in the near future. According to the interlocutors of the publication, the novelty will combine information from various sources. The processed data will then be transmitted to the strike ships. Thanks to this interaction, the fleet will be able to create continuous damage zones with an area of hundreds or even thousands of kilometers.

    Earlier, the head of the MA and air defense of the black sea fleet, Colonel Sergei Saushkin, said that in the coming years, radical changes will occur in the automated control system, which will improve the quality of management by an order of magnitude.

    All modern and promising anti-ship missiles receive target designation and route before launch. They start looking for objects on their own only on the last leg of the flight, several tens of kilometers away. The ammunition includes its own relatively low-power homing head for this purpose for a short time.

    "To bring a long — range weapon system to the target area, a certain accuracy is required," military expert Viktor Murakhovsky explained to Izvestia. - Missile homing heads are limited in range and in the angle at which they can recognize an object. Just firing into the sea towards the target is a pointless waste of expensive weapons. There are certain requirements for issuing target designation for pointing ammunition at ship groups and individual ships. Keep in mind that they do not stand still. A typical connection covers dozens of kilometers in an hour. Therefore, the command post should have up-to-date information that allows you to bring shock weapons to the target area.

    According to the expert, that is why it is necessary to combine all the intelligence tools that are based in space, in the air, on ships and ground objects. They should collectively deal with the "opening" of ship groups. The unified information system ensures the operation of reconnaissance and strike circuits, Viktor Murakhovsky noted. And a variety of weapons systems can use reliable and up-to-date information from it: coastal missile systems, ship-based strike vehicles, and others.

    For submarines, such a system will be especially relevant, former submarine commander Igor Kurdin told Izvestia.

    — We use only the information that we "hear" with the help of sonar systems, and this is not a very long distance — - the expert explained. — Of course, we need a complete reconnaissance situation in as large a radius as possible, primarily in combat areas. Even in a submerged position, the command has the ability to call the submarine in case of an urgent need — including for transmitting intelligence. The aircraft's ability to collect information is much greater than that of a ship, but at the same time it has lower combat stability. Therefore, the detection and tracking system must be comprehensive.

    Aviation modernization

    As previously reported by Izvestia, the MA will soon receive Kinzhal hypersonic missile systems with a range of more than 1.5 thousand km. they will be the First to enter the Northern fleet. But the southern military district already has an experimental squadron of such aircraft. They regularly fly out on patrol over the Black and Caspian seas, and are used in exercises together with Tu-22M3 bombers carrying anti-ship missiles.

    A program is also underway to expand the capabilities of the su-30SM multi-role naval aviation fighters. They will be able to use a wider range of long-range missiles, including the most powerful X-32.

    Over the past eight years, AI has received 120 new and upgraded aircraft. Many of them are being re-equipped with a specialized computing subsystem SVP-24 "Hephaestus". It allows you to receive target designation from external sources and SNiP both surface and ground targets, even with unguided ammunition. It was reported that they were re-equipping the su-24M of the 43rd separate marine assault aviation regiment of the black sea fleet.

    Earlier, the defense Ministry reported on the ongoing development of a new patrol aircraft, which should replace the anti-submarine Tu-142M3. Representatives of the AI also announced plans to receive promising deck-based drones and ship-based radar patrol aircraft in the period from 2021 to 2030. They will also be able to work with automated control systems.

    The su-33 carrier-based fighters that were upgraded to the SVP-24 were used to attack ground targets of terrorists in Syria during the combat cruise of the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier in 2016. Tu-142M3 anti-submarine patrol aircraft were also seen in the Arab Republic, which are also equipped with this subsystem. They not only conducted reconnaissance, but also attacked extremist targets with bombs themselves.

    Sea scouts

    Since the advent of long-range anti-ship missiles, the Navy has had to solve the problem of targeting them. During the flight of subsonic ammunition to the maximum range, ships running at full speed could move several tens of kilometers and get out of the affected area. In order not to lose sight of the enemy and find him at a long distance, the aviation began to use reconnaissance aircraft with powerful radars.

    The Tu-95RTS turboprop was a scout and target designator for anti-ship missiles during the cold war. They were designed on the basis of long-range strategic bombers and released in a series of 53 vehicles. A huge aircraft weighing more than 180 tons with a crew of nine people could monitor aircraft carrier strike groups from a distance of hundreds of kilometers. Their duration of patrolling in the air reached a day.

    The Tu-95RK was used not only from the territory of the USSR. They also regularly patrolled from Soviet bases in Guinea, Vietnam, and Cuba. This made it possible to track the movement of NATO squadrons in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans. Such aircraft were actively used until the 1980s. Then they were gradually replaced by the space system of reconnaissance and target designation.

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en.d58c9b96-604049a6-8940a14a-74722d776562/https/vpk.name/news/489594_s_dalnim_pricelom_korabli_protivnika_zametyat_za_sotni_kilometrov.html

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