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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:50 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, it is already important that, since the first article of 2018, 4 additional 22350 frigates have been laid down.

    Probably after the upgrades in severnaya verf also 22350M will be laid down there too.

    I agree that leader class destroyers cruisers
    are currently less important than 22350 and 22350M.

    As written many times, i would also welcome the building of 22350 and 22350M in additional shipyards.

    It depends also on the production capabilities for all associated equipment, including propulsion  (gas turbines, reduction gears), but not only.

    If the half built ships must sit idly in the shipyard because some of the internal systems cannot be produced at the needed pace, then it is better to invest on the supply chain first, and use the shipyards for building other ships.

    Anyway,  provided that propulsion, weapon systems, radars sonars, internal systems etc are not the bottlenecks, the first option for laying down additional 22350 and 22350M is of course Yantar, as soon as they finish building the 11356 for India (and they previously build there Udaloy class destroyers which have the same size as 22350M).

    Also Zaliv in Kerch is an option, provided that they do not need to use the dry dock (already full for the next few years) for the frigates (I remember reading that they could build several 1135 frigates from the boathouses there... 22350 is a bit bigger than 1135, but maybe it is not a problem.

    Admiralty shipyard and Baltic shipyard in saint Petersburg have the infrastructure and the trained manpower for building both 22350 and 22350M (and in case of Baltic shipyard also leader destroyers/cruisers) but they have already a full order book for the next few years.

    I do not know if moving some of the diesel submarine construction to krasnoe sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod (that previously built both diesel and nuclear attack submarines (like the 945 barracuda class with titanium hulls)) could free some of the capacity in the admiralty shipyard.

    By the way, recently some representative from krasnoe sormovo expressed interest in building improved kilos...

    The Baltic Shipyard in St. Petersburg which would be used to build the Lider battlecruisers is currently building Project 22220 nuclear icebreakers. Same shipyard which built the Kirov battlecruisers.
    To be honest I was not that impressed with the original design for Lider. Considering the huge size it was supposed to have it was not that capable in terms of total available missile tubes.
    Lider was to have more or less the same amount of cells as conventionally powered cruisers from the US or China which have smaller displacements.
    After the order for the icebreakers was expanded with at least two more hulls to be in construction it was quite clear Lider was "put on ice".

    I agree that they should increase the amount of Project 22350 and 22350M frigates. The Project 22350M in particular should be able to replace the Sovremenny and Udaloy destroyers with ease.
    This ship should be a lot more cost effective than the nuclear powered battlecruisers and would have export potential. I agree that Yantar should be also building this class of ship. They should double the amount of ships in construction.
    I doubt the gas turbine production would be a major bottleneck. Each Project 22350 ship will only use four gas turbines (2x boost and 2x cruise). A single Il-76 has four gas turbine engines.
    A lot of people don't realize this but Russia had been researching marine gas turbine engines prior to the Ukraine gas turbine embargo. That is one reason why it developed alternative designs so quickly.
    It takes between 5 years to a decade, usually a decade, to design a novel gas turbine engine.

    The nuclear powered battlecruisers still make sense in the longer term but I would not be surprised if it took them another 3-5 years until they enter the construction phase.
    By that time the RITM-200 reactor will have been proven, the RITM-400 reactor might be available, the Project 22220 icebreakers will have been launched, so there will be dry dock space for the battlecruisers.

    The Zvezda shipyard will basically prove Russia has the facilities and workers which can build even larger ships like aircraft carriers. Without Ukraine.
    Once the RITM-400 reactor has been proven with the larger icebreakers then the aircraft carriers can be built. I expect the aircraft carriers will start construction in like 8-10 years.
    This time will also allow for the design and testing of an EMALS catapult system. Russia shouldn't do like the US did where they started construction of a carrier (Ford) before they had a ground based test catapult which met design specifications.

    I hope Russia won't build something like the Shtorm carrier. Russia needs two or three carriers with a size between the Charles de Gaulle and the Admiral Kuznetsov. Shtorm is just obscene and does not make much sense.
    For the price of one Shtorm you could build two Charles de Gaulle class carriers. For the types of scenarios Russia finds itself in that is more than enough.

    This could all have happened faster if the oil price hadn't come down and state revenues decreased but I think it would have been less efficient.
    It would have required double the naval shipyard facilities. The facilities would be hard pressed to find work once the state naval program was complete.
    The naval facilities would still have taken time to upgrade and it still would have taken time to train staff so I doubt it would have happened much faster either.
    Had the Ukrainian embargo never happened I think at best Russia would have had twice the amount of modern frigates. i.e. instead of 5 they would have 10.
    That is significant but not that important. What is more important is Russia now will have the facilities to build all the major components itself thus improving self-reliance.


    Last edited by lancelot on Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:42 pm

    Welcome to the forum Lancelot, it is a forum rule that new users post an introduction in the rules and introductions section.

    Please take the time to read the rules and post an introduction thread for yourself.

    I agree they don't need or want huge 100K aircraft carriers, but the current Kuznetsov is not big enough.

    There were comments and hints that part of the upgrade of the K include an experiemental system for assisting takeoffs with some sort of catapult system... it will be interesting to see what it actually is.

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    Post  Sujoy Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:04 am

    Russian navy testing out their coastal and frigate missile defense systems

    https://www.facebook.com/russiabeyond/videos/2475985502701793
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:50 pm

    1 more SSK to join the Pac. Fleet on 10/25.

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    Post  LMFS Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:51 am

    Russia has tested a new anti-submarine missile

    MOSCOW, October 28-RIA Novosti.
    Russian sailors from the frigate " AdmiralKasatonov" tested a new anti-submarine missile in theThe Barents sea, the press service of the Northern fleet reported on Wednesday.
    What exactly "product" was tested, it is not specified.
    "The newest frigate of the Northern fleet, Admiral of the fleet Kasatonov, fired an anti-submarine missile at the fleet's combat training grounds in the Barents sea. The shooting was carried out as part of the qualification serial tests of the product and was recognized as a success," the release says.
    One of the nuclear submarines of the Northern fleet was already watching the torpedo that separated from the rocket. An Il-38 anti-submarine aircraft, a Ka-27 helicopter and a torpedo boat of the Kola flotilla also provided fire.
    "When performing rocket firing, the frigate's combat crews demonstrated confident command of combat equipment, high professionalism and naval training," the press service added.

    https://ria.ru/20201028/ispytanie-1581927559.html

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    Post  Hole Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:04 am

    91R1?
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:26 pm


    Odds are small but I do hope that this anti-sub missile is some new product for Uran launchers instead of usual UKSK

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    Post  Isos Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Odds are small but I do hope that this anti-sub missile is some new product for Uran launchers instead of usual UKSK


    Quite possible actually. Uran launchers are used on stereguchshy and mod Udaloy which both are ASW ships.

    The missile itself can be longer than Uran since the launchers are mounted externally.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:31 pm

    It was launched from the Kasatonov
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    Post  kvs Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm

    Must be fake since we have no detailed information useful for the CIA.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:20 am

    One of the nuclear submarines of the Northern fleet was already watching the torpedo that separated from the rocket.

    It clearly states the torpedo separated from the rocket, which means it is a 91ER1/2 type weapon... perhaps using a bigger torpedo, or more likely a bigger rocket to provide better range.

    91ER1/2 are not new weapons so most likely more powerful rocket motor with better range performance...
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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:24 am

    Looks like the Egyptian Navy has finally made it through the Turkish Dardanelles Strait which connects the Aegean Sea with the Sea of Marmara, to participate in maneuvers with Russia in the Black Sea.


    https://twitter.com/TurkeyAffairs/status/1327627971075710976

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1327627971075710976

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:22 pm

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    Post  kvs Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:Russia has tested a new anti-submarine missile

    MOSCOW, October 28-RIA Novosti.
    Russian sailors from the frigate " AdmiralKasatonov" tested a new anti-submarine missile in theThe Barents sea, the press service of the Northern fleet reported on Wednesday.
    What exactly "product" was tested, it is not specified.
    "The newest frigate of the Northern fleet, Admiral of the fleet Kasatonov, fired an anti-submarine missile at the fleet's combat training grounds in the Barents sea. The shooting was carried out as part of the qualification serial tests of the product and was recognized as a success," the release says.
    One of the nuclear submarines of the Northern fleet was already watching the torpedo that separated from the rocket. An Il-38 anti-submarine aircraft, a Ka-27 helicopter and a torpedo boat of the Kola flotilla also provided fire.
    "When performing rocket firing, the frigate's combat crews demonstrated confident command of combat equipment, high professionalism and naval training," the press service added.

    https://ria.ru/20201028/ispytanie-1581927559.html

    So this was the Otvet. Not quite fake...

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:17 pm

    Russian NB in Sudan: Extending Moscow’s Influence in ME and N Africa

    Marines of Caspian Flotilla: https://iz.ru/1016392/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/more-vnutri-kaspiiskii-region-usilili-chernymi-beretami


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:54 pm

    So this was the Otvet. Not quite fake...

    I am so glad this is Otvet... the thought that they are only now testing 91ER1 would be frustrating as it is a mature system, though it is designed for torpedo tube launch from both surface ship and submarine, that is no surprise as many of the UKSK launched weapons are 533mm weapons originally used from torpedo tubes anyway.

    Part of the problem with Russian systems is that news releases and technical information often are released with no word of actual testing and service entry in the Russian military, so you can end up reading about a system for decades only to find out it is only just entering Russian service.

    The R-77 is a good example... it was actually tested in the late 1980s and was probably ready before AMRAAM but was not adopted at the time by the Russian military... they are not cheap missiles, but more importantly very few of their aircraft in the 90s and 00s could use them anyway, which would have made them even more expensive...

    They bought token amounts of the original RVV-AE which was bought in greater numbers by China and India than by Russia, but now Russia is buying further developed versions so that is OK.

    Further upgrades of the R-27s should not be ignored... new digital controls and digital sensors and improved components radically improve performance... needless to say the standard US Naval SAM for medium range defence is the ESSM, which is just a digital upgraded Sparrow missile of the same generation... and they seem to think it is wonderful.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So this was the Otvet. Not quite fake...

    I am so glad this is Otvet... the thought that they are only now testing 91ER1 would be frustrating as it is a mature system, though it is designed for torpedo tube launch from both surface ship and submarine, that is no surprise as many of the UKSK launched weapons are 533mm weapons originally used from torpedo tubes anyway.

    Part of the problem with Russian systems is that news releases and technical information often are released with no word of actual testing and service entry in the Russian military, so you can end up reading about a system for decades only to find out it is only just entering Russian service.

    The R-77 is a good example... it was actually tested in the late 1980s and was probably ready before AMRAAM but was not adopted at the time by the Russian military... they are not cheap missiles, but more importantly very few of their aircraft in the 90s and 00s could use them anyway, which would have made them even more expensive...

    They bought token amounts of the original RVV-AE which was bought in greater numbers by China and India than by Russia, but now Russia is buying further developed versions so that is OK.

    Further upgrades of the R-27s should not be ignored... new digital controls and digital sensors and improved components radically improve performance... needless to say the standard US Naval SAM for medium range defence is the ESSM, which is just a digital upgraded Sparrow missile of the same generation... and they seem to think it is wonderful.


    Knowing Russia, the 91ER1 probably is the 'Otvet'
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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:39 am

    Maybe with a new torpedo.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:48 am

    It might be based on the 91ER1, but the payload torpedo is different and has rather different and much better specs... including a range of up to 20km for the torpedo compared with about 10km range for the older model.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:42 am

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 16 En_Hu8GXMAAAl0y?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  franco Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:36 pm

    Potential and prospects of the Caspian flotilla

    The Red Banner Caspian Flotilla is the smallest formation of the Russian Navy, but it solves the problem of protecting one of the most important areas. In recent years, systematic and effective modernization has been carried out, which has made it possible to significantly increase all the main indicators of the flotilla. At the same time, the updating processes are continuing - and in the future they will give new remarkable results.

    Ship composition


    The basis of the CFL is made up of warships and boats, as well as auxiliary vessels of all main classes. In recent years, the flotilla has received a lot of new pennants of different classes. To date, the share of modern samples in the ship-and-boat structure has been brought to 80%. It is curious that in 2016 its share reached 86%, but then slightly decreased due to natural processes.

    The main combat units of the KFL are modern ships with guided missile weapons. These are two patrol boats / corvettes of project 11661 "Gepard", commissioned in 2003 and 2012, as well as three small missile ships of project 21631 "Buyan-M" and a missile boat of project 12411T. There are small artillery ships of project 21630 "Buyan" (3 units), as well as artillery boats of project 1204 (4 units) and 1 boat of project 1400M.

    Combat ships and boats carry a variety of weapons. Of greatest interest is the Kalibr-NK missile system with a range of thousands of kilometers. Its potential was demonstrated back in 2015, and since then the number of launch vehicles and deployed missiles has grown significantly.

    KFL has a fairly developed amphibious fleet. There are eight landing boats of projects 1176, 11770 and 21820 to support the combat work of the marines. At least 7-8 anti-sabotage boats of various types have been put into service. There is a developed grouping of raid and base minesweepers of several projects in the amount of 8 units.

    Search and rescue support of the flotilla is assigned to 11 pennants. Among them are several sea rescue tugs, fire fighting vessels and offshore diving boats. 15 vessels of all main classes are responsible for logistical support, incl. sea ​​and harbor tugs, tankers and weapons transports. There are hydrographic boats and ships - only 5 units.

    The construction of ships, vessels and boats for the KFL continues, and in the near future it is expected that new combat and auxiliary units will be commissioned. In addition, scheduled repairs with restoration or modernization are carried out.

    Coastal troops

    The CFL includes not the most numerous, but rather developed coastal troops. Due to recent changes in the organizational structure and the formation of new units and subdivisions, it was possible to significantly increase their potential. In addition, the previously absent samples entered service with the BV KFl, with the help of which they expanded the range of tasks to be solved.

    The largest unit in BV is the 177th Marine Regiment, formed in 2018. It has two battalions stationed in Astrakhan and Kaspiysk. It is armed with modern weapons and equipment. The basis of the regiment's fleet is the BTR-82 amphibious armored personnel carriers.

    At the beginning of the year, the 51st separate coastal missile division received a new materiel. Its task is to protect the coast from enemy ships using the Bal missile system. The coastal forces had systems of this class earlier, but several years ago they were transferred to the Black Sea Fleet. Now there are missile systems on the shores of the Caspian Sea.

    Modern capabilities

    In its current form, the Caspian Flotilla is a sufficiently developed and powerful formation of the Navy, capable of solving several key tasks in its region and, what is important, beyond its borders. Both containment and strikes against enemy targets are provided.

    The size of the Russian flotilla, at least, is not inferior to the naval associations of other countries of the Caspian region. At the same time, there are significant advantages in the form of novelty and high characteristics of weapons and equipment, as well as in the form of a high level of personnel training.

    The main task of the CFL remains to maintain peace and security in the Caspian Sea region, to protect the maritime borders and the coast of Russia, and with them other nearby regions, from a possible attack. Surface forces and coastal troops are able to detect and destroy in time any strike group of third countries in the region.

    As practice has already shown, the offensive capabilities of the CFL are of particular importance. Ships carrying cruise missiles, without leaving the Caspian Sea, are capable of attacking targets at ranges of up to 2-2.5 thousand km. Thus, the largest region, from the Middle East to Central Asia, is under the control of corvettes and RTOs.

    In the wake of recent events, the situation in the Transcaucasus is of particular importance. This region is included in the CFL's area of ​​responsibility, and it is she who will have to respond to aggressive actions of third countries. It is important that the capabilities of the flotilla will make it possible to solve combat missions not only in the region, but also beyond its borders. The target for missiles from the Caspian Sea may be remote facilities of countries intending to advance their interests by destabilizing the situation in the Caucasus.

    It should be borne in mind that the CFL is not the only component of the Russian armed forces. The Red Banner Black Sea Fleet and many formations of the Southern Military District are also responsible for protecting the southern borders. The well-known events of recent years show their potential - and demonstrate what the armed forces as a whole are capable of.

    It should be recalled that CFL turns out to be not only a military but also a diplomatic instrument. The countries of the Caspian region maintain equal international relations, and their fleets contribute to this. KFL ships have repeatedly made friendly visits to foreign ports, and also regularly participate in international maneuvers. Such processes contribute to the reduction of tensions and the growth of trust.

    Quality or quantity

    For a number of objective reasons, the Caspian Flotilla has never been able to compare with other fleets in terms of the number of ships and vessels or the size of coastal troops. In addition, for a long time its development and renewal were far from being a priority. However, in recent years the situation has changed dramatically.

    The CFL remains the smallest formation of the Russian Navy, which affects its appearance and potential. However, opportunities were found for the active development of the flotilla and the build-up of combat capabilities without a significant increase in numbers. In fact, it was in the interests of the CFL that small missile and artillery ships of new types were created, capable of carrying modern and effective weapons.

    Despite all the difficulties and problems, in a limited time, it was possible to carry out a massive rearmament of the CFL, bringing the share of modern samples to 80-86 percent. Other measures led to an increase in other key indicators. At the same time, the process of military construction and modernization does not stop. New facilities for various purposes are being commissioned, new divisions are being formed and modern samples are being supplied.

    Thus, it is quite easy to predict the future of the Red Banner Caspian Flotilla. In recent years, its appearance and capabilities have changed significantly, and the results achieved will be maintained for the foreseeable future. In addition, new steps of various kinds should be expected, which will again lead to the strengthening of naval forces and coastal forces. CFl will remain small in quantitative terms - but in terms of quality it will meet all the requirements.

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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 am

    The last Kara cruiser.

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 16 Eotmrh10

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    Post  walle83 Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:54 am

    Isos wrote:The last Kara cruiser.

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 16 Eotmrh10

    Looks more like the Ochakov. Sunk on purpose in 2014. Kerch was the last Kara cruiser.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:56 pm

    walle83 wrote:Looks more like the Ochakov. Sunk on purpose in 2014. Kerch was the last Kara cruiser.

    Ochakov was refloated after being sunk as a block ship.

    AFAIK she is currently at Inkerman and is yet to be scrapped, so she does in fact count as being the last Kara cruiser.
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    Post  George1 Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:59 am

    JSC Dalzavod Ship Repair Center in Vladivostok. December 2020.

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