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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:18 am

    Combat use of the Pantsir-S air defense missile system at the Ashuluk training ground

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:29 pm

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/air-defense-systems-and-mounts/"Pantsir-S1M"/

    They are advertizing the Pantsir-S1M with missiles having a range of 30km against 2m2 targets. That clearly means the missile is in service with Russia.
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    Post  Krepost Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:13 am

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:14 am

    They are advertizing the Pantsir-S1M with missiles having a range of 30km against 2m2 targets. That clearly means the missile is in service with Russia.

    Export model with export specs... but interesting anyway...
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    Post  Krepost Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:42 am

    Video is from the factory in Tula that produces the Pantsir system.
    Video is from September 2020.
    It has interesting shots including the small missile for the Pantsir, the naval model etc.

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 04-10310

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    Post  franco Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:06 pm

    Access is limited: the south of the country is reinforced with mobile air defense units

    Why are reserve units armed with Pantsir complexes formed in the Southern Military District

    The south of Russia and the Caucasus will be covered by an “impenetrable air defense dome”. According to Izvestia's sources in the military department, new units and subunits of the mobile air defense reserve will be formed as part of the Southern Military District. If necessary, they will have to move quickly to cover important military and socially significant facilities from drone strikes and cruise missiles. It is already known that the Pantsir air defense missile system will go into service with military units and subunits. These complexes can make marches for hundreds of kilometers and immediately begin to perform a combat mission.

    FULL ARTICLE: https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1287537/aleksei-ramm-andrei-fedorov-bogdan-stepovoi/dostup-ogranichen-iug-strany-usilivaiut-mobilnymi-chastiami-pvo?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    NOTE: this will make 5 of these District Reserve Pantsir Air Defense regiments. One per 4 military districts and 1 in the Capital Special Air Defense zone. Again IMHO hope that long term plans includes mixed Pantsir and S350 units here.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:00 am

    Pantsir-S1M during desert trials.

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 FLQF-nLXMAcmGyS?format=jpg&name=largePantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 FLQF-nFXMAUyWPL?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:24 pm

    The updated "Shell" received a high-precision navigation system

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Photorep_imageid_520067_5_8ac3c9c8_d_850

    The upgraded Pantsir-SM air defense system received a high-precision navigation system. It was developed on the basis of a world-class strapdown inertial navigation system and has no analogues in Russia.

    This was reported to TASS by the industrial director of the Rostec weapons complex, Bekhan Ozdoev. He noted that it combines the key parameters of modern orientation systems - high accuracy of autonomous determination of angles, readiness time and resistance to external influencing factors. And now ZRPK, equipped with a new navigation system, is being tested.

    Experts say: the use of a high-precision strapdown inertial navigation system makes it possible to aim a package with rockets with maximum accuracy and speed. In addition, ZRPK can autonomously perform orientation and navigation, including in the absence of signals from satellites. And this is important with the action of electronic warfare.

    "Shell" is a short-range anti-aircraft missile and gun system. Its reaction time is from 4 to 6 seconds. Provides protection against massive strikes by means of air attack using high-precision weapons and drones.

    https://rg.ru/2022/02/21/obnovlennyj-pancir-poluchil-vysokotochnuiu-sistemu-navigacii.html

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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:37 am

    Thanks for that image Krepost... ie:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 04-10310

    Just looking at the rear tail fins of each missile...

    If we go to the KBPtula website that makes Tunguska and Kashtan and Pantsir and Hermes, we find this missile is used by Tunguska and Kashtan:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Raketa10

    Note similar layout but different fins from all three above.

    This is the missile shown for Pantsir-ME which is a naval Kashtan replacement:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Raketa11

    And the land based Pantsir-S1:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Raketa12

    Which both seem to match the left most missile in the top photo based on the missile tailfins visible.

    While this is supposed to be a photo of the SOSNA together with the Pantsir:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 15991211

    So what are those two missiles on the right of the top photo... the sharp triangular fins of the middle one and the small fins of the one on the right...

    The far right one might be one of those new small missiles with four missiles to a tube for drones, the centre one looks smaller and the booster is enormous so perhaps it is one of the new 40-45km range models?

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    Post  Krepost Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:26 am

    GarryB wrote:Thanks for that image Krepost... ie:
    ......

    So what are those two missiles on the right of the top photo... the sharp triangular fins of the middle one and the small fins of the one on the right...

    The far right one might be one of those new small missiles with four missiles to a tube for drones, the centre one looks smaller and the booster is enormous so perhaps it is one of the new 40-45km range models?

    - The far right one is indeed the small missile (with 4 to a tube) for drones.
    - The center one is the new missile for the new Pantsir-S1M system with longer range: Unclear what the range will be, we heard 40 km and we heard 30 km.

    The PANTSIR-S1M was first shown at the victory parade of 2020. Both missiles (small and large ) were on the vehicles (in their respective containers of course).

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Pantsi11

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:02 pm

    New Pantsir SM will have 24 missiles, instead of 12.
    This variant will have guns and tracking radar removed. Load will be 96 missiles with, new, small missiles for drones.
    https://ria.ru/amp/20220629/pantsir-1799015944.html

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    Post  Broski Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:09 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:New Pantsir SM will have 24 missiles, instead of 12.
    This variant will have guns and tracking radar removed. Load will be 96 missiles with, new, small missiles for drones.
    https://ria.ru/amp/20220629/pantsir-1799015944.html
    Good to hear, I can imagine 6 of these new variants operating with an early detection radar and creating a near-impenetrable shield around lets say... Snake Island?
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Radar_1RL-123E_for_Pantsir-S1_-_InnovationDay2013part1-09
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Pantsir-sm-image04

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    Post  Isos Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:33 pm

    Snake island is at artillery range. Fire 25 shells and the pantsir is gone. There is no perfect weapons.

    It seems they understood guns are useless and they just needed more missiles. With the 4 mini missiles per tube they can have a nice mix to increase numbers.

    Drawback is that this system is quite big. Sosna-R is needed to go with it and go in area this pantsir can't. But keeping wheeled chassi is good.
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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:05 pm

    Isos wrote:Snake island is at artillery range. Fire 25 shells and the pantsir is gone. There is no perfect weapons.

    It seems they understood guns are useless and they just needed more missiles. With the 4 mini missiles per tube they can have a nice mix to increase numbers.

    Drawback is that this system is quite big. Sosna-R is needed to go with it and go in area this pantsir can't. But keeping wheeled chassi is good.
    Guns will become more effective with airburst programmable munition. Most likely, small, simple missiles are less expensive solution.

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    Post  Isos Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:13 pm

    Well those are expensive munitions. Just use them on that 57mm AA gun which can hit further away.

    30mm are not needed on modern battlefield.

    More easy to reload cheap missiles is the way to go.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:48 am

    Interesting.

    Going by the two vehicles in Broskis post, two important things are obvious... first that they are splitting the system into multiple vehicles with a large search radar and a missile vehicle with a dedicated tracking radar and optics.

    The removal of the guns is probably sensible because the 30mm cannon could only reach to 3-4km against helicopter/aircraft sized... probably 2-3km for cruise missile sized targets... I would expect a combination of lasers for the destruction very very small drones out to 5km and to blind optical guidance systems including laser spot homing weapons to much greater distances, along with 57mm gun vehicles like the 2S38 which should have double the range or more with guided shells.

    To be clear guided shells just means able to turn a tiny amount and hit something you were already aiming for... these are not rounds that can loop the loop and be fired in the opposite direction of the target and still get hits.

    Gun rounds often miss simply because the target changes speed or direction or altitude or a combination of those... a minor turn to compensate and you still hit the target... or get close enough for the proximity fuse to solve the problem.

    Obviously lasers and 57mm guns wont fit on these two vehicles but it answers the questions about the 2S38.... it clearly operates with the radar search vehicle and a missile vehicle so it does not benefit from carrying missiles or radar to support its mission.

    Perhaps there will be a further command vehicle, but the electronics for each vehicle seem to be rather more compact than the systems for the original Pantsir/Kashtan.

    A sea based version could use 57mm gun turrets and missile mounts with tracking radar for the missiles but the main AESA search radar of the ship for finding threats and targets... justifies putting more AESA radars on even very small boats, which will improve their situational awareness...

    Guns will become more effective with airburst programmable munition. Most likely, small, simple missiles are less expensive solution.

    Each has advantages and problems so I suspect moving forward they will use both.

    Well those are expensive munitions. Just use them on that 57mm AA gun which can hit further away.

    30mm are not needed on modern battlefield.

    I suspect the 30mm will replace the 14.5mm HMG in the light cannon role... the value of cheap command detonation 30mm cannon shells will be enormously valuable on the battlefield to literally shoot around corners.

    Enemy forces hiding in open topped trenches could be engaged using air burst 30mm cannon rounds exploding above the slit trench.

    The chance of getting a fuse precise enough to detonate it right over the trench would make the rounds enormously expensive, but radar tracking the outgoing shells and detonating them as they reach the target would be relatively simple and affordable... and effective.

    Equally troops hiding behind front cover or around corners can be detected by drone and fired at using air burst rounds exploding around corners.

    They will also demolish MRAP type vehicles and civilian vehicles too and would be excellent for use against small drones you probably wont notice at more than 2km anyway.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:49 am

    I think this tendency Russia is having of splitting the systems into separate vehicles is a mistake.

    However what I think is happening is Russia now considers Pantsir as an air defense system exclusively for doing things like doing short range air defense for S-400. While Tor being the mobile one. The idea of having two highly integrated mobile systems which compete against each other is going away basically.

    Since most helicopters and relatively cheap drones like TB-2 or Reaper can hit targets at 8km range with Hellfire or equivalent any system with less range is useless against basically everything except small drones and civilian vehicles. The idea of having guns to shoot down unarmed or gun armed helicopters is kind of gone at this point. And like you guys said can be done with other vehicles with 57mm cannon like new T-15 Armata.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:11 am

    lancelot wrote:I think this tendency Russia is having of splitting the systems into separate vehicles is a mistake.
    However what I think is happening is Russia now considers Pantsir as an air defense system exclusively for doing things like doing short range air defense for S-400. While Tor being the mobile one. The idea of having two highly integrated mobile systems which compete against each other is going away basically.
    Since most helicopters and relatively cheap drones like TB-2 or Reaper can hit targets at 8km range with Hellfire or equivalent any system with less range is useless against basically everything except small drones and civilian vehicles. The idea of having guns to shoot down unarmed or gun armed helicopters is kind of gone at this point. And like you guys said can be done with other vehicles with 57mm cannon like new T-15 Armata.

    Well, I dare for a different opinion.
    It is a logical follow-up.
    30mm is fading into history I guess, the very same way 23 mm was gone.
    It lacks the range and space to make it programmable and lethal at the same time.
    Systems armed with it will be outgunned by not only the attack helos, but light drones, leaving all the job to missiles anyway.
    And pay attention to the part, where they are removing a radar station.
    Does this mean the optical/IR/IIR is just fine where it was?
    Without radar, this system will cost half the actual price.
    It will be harder to track, becoming passive.
    Can be fed with data from all the sources around.
    And have you noticed that the most cases when the Pancyr system was hit and proudly presented to the audience were when it ran out of missiles?

    Now, they are filling this gap and making a space for a more specialized barrel system, which I consider a black horse of this race. Iranians are really a benchmark for antidrone warfare, as they pioneered with them long, long time ago.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:06 pm

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 000635
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 000199
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 000291
    There are two vehicles, one with air surveillance radar and the missile/guns combo and the one with only fire contol radar and missiles.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:07 pm

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Fweuia10
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Fweuia11
    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 15 Fweuia10
    Model

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:18 pm

    So they have repeated solutions known from Buk already.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:58 pm

    Pantsir SM TBM
    24 missiles, new radar, no 23mm guns


    Means inpatient defense. Similarly, the PanzirM line in Libya. See also the "Stand feet".

    A radar vehicle with 2-4 or more starters.
    Since Snake Island was abandoned, these 96 rockets are no longer to be tested there. However, I don't trust the armor anyway.

    It has been active and armed too often destroyed. See Syria or Snake Island. But it is a cheap alternative to the expensive TOR. Nevertheless, I would always give a goal for security.

    Nevertheless, the war shows significantly, more rockets are better than no rockets. The oversaturation is usually easy to produce. In order to exclude a shock to the rear troops, every threat from the air must be eleminated.

    That is why more such short -distance air defense systems are absolutely necessary. Otherwise the troops run like counterfeit money on the battlefield and can no longer perform their task.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:01 pm

    I think guns will likely stay as a way to defend against incoming missiles and loitering munitions, the question is in what caliber.

    30mm is a little small for command fuses, but could still work, 57mm is too large for combination systems on land, perhaps we will see the return of 45mm.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:09 pm

    Put a 57mm gun on the same truck as above and add it to the line up. Cool
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:29 pm

    The video the stills came from.

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