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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:29 pm


    Also I doubt that 9 Pantsirs were destroyed by drones or air strikes. Most of the "destroyed" systems were left by retreating soldiers.

    Well it's a truck that can move same way as the pick-ups they use to retreat.

    It's a very mobile system. You can use it to retreat.

    Also those numbers are from US. They are meaningless.

    Note also that most of them were coming on russian chassi which means Russia is getting ride of them in favor of S2 or SM which is smart.

    You are spot on in the first part of your post, and totally wrong in the second. Russian A2/AD and all those stories are BULLSHIT. I posted some days ago a serious document where they lay very clear that they are not planing about hiding in their holes until NATO decides to stop beating them but actually about laying waste of the attackers infrastructure. These guys fought and won WWII, do you think they are suckers in terms of warfare??

    They put more money on S-400 and other AD than on buying more cruise missiles or BM.

    I'm not saying they lack offensive weapons. I'm saying they show more interest on defensive ones.

    We see in Syria vs Israel or NK or Lybia that the one who attacks always succeed to destroy enemy infrastructure, expensive systems.

    IMO they should buy more sukhois than AD systems. Just like their clients should buy more fighters than AD.
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    Daniel_Admassu

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    Post  Daniel_Admassu Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:09 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I'm not saying they lack offensive weapons. I'm saying they show more interest on defensive ones.

    We see in Syria vs Israel or NK or Lybia that the one who attacks always succeed to destroy enemy infrastructure, expensive systems.

    IMO they should buy more sukhois than AD systems. Just like their clients should buy more fighters than AD.

    Well, in my opinion the offence/defense dilemma is more a geopolitical question than a military capability one. For the most part Russia is trying to avoid escalation in favor of cultivating strategic partnerships even while sacrificing face and assets. It is bidding its time, awaiting the decisive shift in world political/economic balance that it knows is coming. Some small concessions and losses are worth the larger long term potentials.

    A good example is that dawning of the SU-24 by Turkey in 2007. Russia could have easily escalated the situation by at least attacking the origin base of the F-16 to the effect of destroying the aggressor squadron and saving its face and proving its military efficacy. But then what? Bar WW3, the US would have gotten all the excuse to rally the whole of NATO behind it, consolidating its grip on Turkey and basically isolating Russia from the near/middle east. Instead,  Russia swallowed some pride and limited its response to a diplomatic hardball, leading Erdogan to apologize/compensate and what followed in the geostrategic dynamic of the two nations looks like a case study in a chess masterclass.

    The US also senses the coming shift, hence its desperation in military posturing and sanctions. But time, with all its indifference, is on Russia's side.


    Last edited by Daniel_Admassu on Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:14 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Also I doubt that 9 Pantsirs were destroyed by drones or air strikes. Most of the "destroyed" systems were left by retreating soldiers.

    Well it's a truck that can move same way as the pick-ups they use to retreat.

    It's a very mobile system. You can use it to retreat.

    Also those numbers are from US. They are meaningless.

    Note also that most of them were coming on russian chassi which means Russia is getting ride of them in favor of S2 or SM which is smart.

    You are spot on in the first part of your post, and totally wrong in the second. Russian A2/AD and all those stories are BULLSHIT. I posted some days ago a serious document where they lay very clear that they are not planing about hiding in their holes until NATO decides to stop beating them but actually about laying waste of the attackers infrastructure. These guys fought and won WWII, do you think they are suckers in terms of warfare??

    They put more money on S-400 and other AD than on buying more cruise missiles or BM.

    I'm not saying they lack offensive weapons. I'm saying they show more interest on defensive ones.

    We see in Syria vs Israel or NK or Lybia that the one who attacks always succeed to destroy enemy infrastructure, expensive systems.

    IMO they should buy more sukhois than AD systems. Just like their clients should buy more fighters than AD.

    They have purchase more cruise missiles in last 4 years than they have during times leading up to end of USSR. Possibly more than end points of USSR.

    They just seem to showcase them in terms of numbers compared to pantsirs which are easily visible.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:24 pm

    @Daniel_admassu

    Actually, all NATO left Turkey alone and clearly told them you fuck up alone we won't help. That's why Turkey bought S-400. They understood NATO doesn't give a fuck about Erdogan and thry could even be the next big target in the middle east.

    Also Russia responded. 2 days after the downing of the su-24, 2 kurds destroyed a Cobra helicopter with a russian Igla-S manpad killing the 2 crews. It was the first time they used such weapon and that was procided by Russia for sure.

    They have purchase more cruise missiles in last 4 years than they have during times leading up to end of USSR. Possibly more than end points of USSR.

    They just seem to showcase them in terms of numbers compared to pantsirs which are easily visible.

    Well then they should show them. In Syria they filmed all their S-400 but never the Iskander which is present in very low numbers. Their Sukhoi are also almost never shown with tactical missiles. They showed only once a su-34 with kh-35.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:31 pm

    Isos wrote:They put more money on S-400 and other AD than on buying more cruise missiles or BM.

    I'm not saying they lack offensive weapons. I'm saying they show more interest on defensive ones.

    We see in Syria vs Israel or NK or Lybia that the one who attacks always succeed to destroy enemy infrastructure, expensive systems.

    IMO they should buy more sukhois than AD systems. Just like their clients should buy more fighters than AD.

    This is just your impression, they have multiplied the number of offensive missiles in the last 10 years. Here we have better sources and judgement than CNN headlines in third world countries, why would some odd and inconsequential Israeli attacks on Syria be of value to judge the ultimate capabilities and doctrine of the Russian military?

    This way in autumn of 2020, along with the ground forces ‘Iskander’ systems capable of carrying 2-4 cruise missiles, the overall Russian salvo already exceeds 2,350 missiles. Nominally it is still less than what is available to the USA. However, firstly, the combat effectiveness of the newest Russian missiles surpass by far that of the old American ‘Tomahawks’, and secondly, let us remember that back in 2010 the Russian salvo had only 600 missiles. So the progress in the course of 10 years is truly revolutionary. And who said that we want to stop there.

    http://thesaker.is/a-cruise-missile-revolution-took-place-in-russia/

    Consider also the last statements from Shoigu saying plainly that they are going to strongly increase the amount of hypersonic missiles procured as it will be the base of their conventional deterrence.
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    Mindstorm

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    Post  Mindstorm Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:17 am

    franco wrote:American military commander named the number of Bayraktars destroyed by the Russian Shell in Libya

    In the spring-summer of 2020, Turkish media enthusiastically described the destruction of "dozens" of Pantsir-C1 air defense missile systems in Libya. However, the American military commander Jeff Jaworski found out the true state of affairs and named both the number of irretrievably lost air defense missile systems and the number of Turkish Bayraktar TB2 reconnaissance drones destroyed by a Russian-made air defense system.

    According to a journalist from the United States, he conducted a thorough investigation, including using information from the Pentagon. As a result, he found that Ankara greatly exaggerated its successes and spoke extremely modestly, and even sparingly, about its losses. But an impartial journalist calculated that the Turks destroyed 9 units of these air defense missile systems, which were under the control of Arab operators.

    In Libya, Pantsir-C1 personnel acted more efficiently than in Syria, they already knew the tactics of Bayraktar attacks

    - the meticulous journalist drew attention.

    According to him, 47 units of Bayraktar TB2 were shot down in Libya by "Shells", and now these UAVs no longer seem so invincible. The American also studied the financial side of the issue. 9 air defense missile systems cost $ 118 million, and 47 UAVs - $ 245 million.

    We remind you that another civil war in Libya began in the spring of 2014. On the one side of the confrontation is the country's official parliament (sits in the east in Benghazi) and its Libyan National Army, led by Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, and on the other, the Libyan National Accord Government (sits in the west in Tripoli), consisting of Islamists and supported by the UN and Turkey ...

    https://pll4mi3fskkynekzvxxr6u4ery--topcor-ru.translate.goog/18972-amerikanskij-voenkor-nazval-chislo-bajraktarov-unichtozhennyh-rossijskim-pancirem-v-livii.html


    The cost figures are ,as always, completely wronged :

    - TB2 Bayraktar in the export market cost not less than 8-9 ml dollars at glider (excluded weapons and control stations) ,therefore 47 TB2 downed in Lybia are a loss of 376 to 423 ml dollars not 245 ml dollars
    - Панцирь-С1, first version like UAE ones, in the export market cost around 5,5-6 ml dollars at launchers ,therefore a loss of 9 launchers (and we know that not less of 5 of them was simply abandoned by LNA cause the advancing ground offensive) amount to 49,5 to 54 ml dollars

    As already said in the past, the losses of Панцирь-С1 launchers has been almost entirely caused by the ground offensive of the GNA coordinated by Turkey with heavy participation of "war veteran" Syrian rebels and its own time caused by lack of construction of fortificated defensive structures, ambush positions and masked and covered fire points in the LNA controled territory that not expected a counter-offensive by part of GNA.


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    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:11 pm


    I don't know what to think about this... dunno


    https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2021/03/23/second-pantsir-s1-left-for-germany-in-favor-of-the-americans/

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:19 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:
    I don't know what to think about this... dunno


    https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2021/03/23/second-pantsir-s1-left-for-germany-in-favor-of-the-americans/


    It's an emirati pantsir well known by the US. And it also seem damaged.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:21 am

    30mm AA cannons used to engage lightly-armored ground vehicles.

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