Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6196
    Points : 6331
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:37 am

    Since regional nuclear engagement automatically requires fast response times, some sort of hypersonic option is needed. One
    that can reach any regional target in less than 10 minutes. This assures MAD, which is what has been keeping the peace since
    the 1950s.

    Since Kinzhal is a hypersonic derivative of the Iskander, I can guess that hypersonic Iskanders are on the way. The advances in
    solid rocket fuel are breathtaking. But one basically never hears about this.

    avatar
    PeeD

    Posts : 20
    Points : 22
    Join date : 2017-07-07

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  PeeD on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:The point is that the fact that they are developing standoff weapons shows the success of the Russian IADS.... and it is hardly a fault of an IADS if the enemy then decides to avoid it and fire at it from a distance.

    I'm a big admirer of Russian/Soviet IADS concept, nothing wrong there. But if such low cost CMs become reality on western airpower, you need to counter it cost effectively.
    I think Pantsir missile component is already today a cost effective solution.
    S-350 allows area protection against such weapons beyond line of sight restrictions due to its ARH seeker SAMs.
    That's good but that's the point where cost becomes relevant: An ARH seeker SAM that allows beyond horizon engagement vs. a single stage turbojet propulsion turbojet CM, is already a not very ideal trade.
    Guided 57mm on the other hand is, or Irans (future) approach with guided 100mm KS-19 rounds. For area protection with missiles, I would avoid an ARH seeker SAM against such threats and that is what Soviet doctrine always did --> go for a cost effective solution.

    It then becomes the job of your air force and navy to take any conflict to the enemy... if the US is using stand off cruise missiles to slowly wear down Russian defences then they have lost simply because the Russians can respond to any attack by destroying valuable components used in that attack like aircraft and airfields that host those aircraft... the attacker will need to escalate or desist...

    Sure attacking the bases of tactical airpower is THE key vulnerability that must be exploited.
    However the elements of tactical airpower that remain alive can exploit the traditional strength of it: tactical flexibility to attack where the opponents defenses where it is weakest with a concentration of your airpower assets on one single point.

    I'm a firm believer that traditional tactical airpower is obsolete in the days of precision BMs, CMs and HGV's. But a cost effective stand-off weapon in the 500km class would give it a new life. If numbers are available and saturation attacks are possible, then flexibility of airpower becomes relevant again --> break enemy defenses at its weakest point and get behind their lines.

    For small countries something like Hermes and future developments might be the best solution.... right now a 100km range ballistic rocket delivered munition to hit point targets... in the near future fit a scramjet motor in place of the main solid rocket motor and quadruple its flight range and start targeting Israeli airfields deep inside Israel where individual aircraft can be targeted...

    Cost effectiveness is key. An Iskander has just a booster as propulsion system and Iran too is going that way with its Fateh family. A screamjet or a HGV add cost of an additional propulsion system and extra heatshielding. To take out an airbase and its critical objects, you need a low cost weapon that does the job and already the Iskander has some added capabilities that may be unnecessary.

    In my opinion HGV equipped systems like the DF-17 are today only useful of you have to target a U.S carrier group. Iskander aeroballistic approach is sufficient to effectively counter THAAD/Arrow/PAC-3.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24369
    Points : 24911
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:45 am

    Like Iran showed, the best to counter western military is huge numbers of ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and suicide drones.

    Having a very big air defence army is costly and the best you could do is destroy aircraft above your territory. It's not useless but defence systems never make you win a war.

    I think the lesson is obvious... you can even look to nature... hedge hogs and turtles don't win... they survive... most of the time their defences are good enough, but against peak predators they are useless... ie against humans a hedgehog and a turtle don't last long at all...

    What you need is some way of hurting the danger to the point where any perceived advantages of attacking you are outweighed by the potential pain or damage you can inflict... ie I don't need to be able to defeat you, but if I can make you think you will suffer you will move along to the next potential meal instead.

    Clearly this means just having a really good defence is not enough on its own, so an air defence system on its own even with integrated air power like the Russians have is not enough on its own, but then they have the entire Russian military and nuclear capacity to back it up and deliver pain to whomever needs to learn the lesson if necessary.

    IMO it is more disuasive to have the power to attack directly deep into the enemy and make huge damages than having the power to destroy its aircraft only.

    But if you don't have any defences they will use your strike potential as a reason to attack you in the first place... it would make you enough of a threat to matter and to get their attention.

    Russia should invest in a 2000km MRBM to put in danger the rear bases of nato in italya and germany ...

    They will but it wont be ballistic...

    Since Kinzhal is a hypersonic derivative of the Iskander, I can guess that hypersonic Iskanders are on the way. The advances in
    solid rocket fuel are breathtaking. But one basically never hears about this.

    Both are solid rocket fuelled missiles, but because Kinzhal is launched from altitude at speed it is slightly faster and has much longer range because it can convert more energy in to top speed instead of using lots and lots of energy getting up off the ground to altitude and from a standing start to moving rather fast.

    AFAIK the Iskander is already hypersonic... with speed quoted at between mach 6-7, but when launched from above 10km altitude and at mach 2.4 it gets an enormous boost in flight speed to about mach 10 and a flight range four times bigger (ie 2,000km).


    I'm a big admirer of Russian/Soviet IADS concept, nothing wrong there. But if such low cost CMs become reality on western airpower, you need to counter it cost effectively.

    Yes you do and no you don't and yes they are.

    On paper you don't want your defences costing you too much money, but having said that the Soviet Union and Russia have probably invested more in air defence than in anything else... it is like saying there is no point in wearing body armour unless you can make it cheaper than bullets... you want protection no matter what the cost.. if you can get it cheap then all the better but you want protection even if some of it is expensive.

    The Russians and Soviets have already thought about costs... they have never had too much money to spend on defence, so they have always been careful not to waste money and to make sure things are cost effective... TOR and Pantsir missiles are command guided... the missiles themselves have no IIR seekers or Active Radar homing radar antenna fitted to them... their Kornet missiles and Pine missiles use simple cheap hard to jam or defeat laser beam riding guidance, which keeps the missiles cheap and effective and able to be mass produced, while the systems themselves are very capable... amongst the best in their class in the world.

    So yes they need to counter the west, they don't need to do it on the cheap, but they are doing an excellent job of keeping costs to a minimum.

    I think Pantsir missile component is already today a cost effective solution.

    The TOR missile is also cheap and with excellent performance based on components in the launcher that are not destroyed with each use so they can be expensive high quality and capable systems directing cheap simple missiles to destroy targets effectively.

    S-350 allows area protection against such weapons beyond line of sight restrictions due to its ARH seeker SAMs.

    The bigger heavier longer ranged systems cannot be kept cheap and simple but when they are shooting down $120 million dollar F-35s then it is good value for money... or indeed shooting down nuclear armed cruise missiles then the value is in the material protected... not just the missiles destroyed.

    That's good but that's the point where cost becomes relevant: An ARH seeker SAM that allows beyond horizon engagement vs. a single stage turbojet propulsion turbojet CM, is already a not very ideal trade.

    Only if you are the EU and HATO and you realise you rely for air defence on your aircraft which might not be enough if you finally manage to find the right button to piss off the Bear and it starts actively attacking you... that is when you can tot up the cost of your ignorance at baiting the bear for political gain and sucking up to the yanks...

    For Russia money already invested in air defence units and radar (fixed and mobile) and SAMs and fighter and interceptor aircraft is totally worth it... I suspect their export order book will be filling up as we speak...

    Their cheap turbojet power cruise missiles are going to need more than cheap engines to become a real threat to an air defence network intended to shoot down cruise missiles... I mean the Syrian air defences without an IADS managed to shoot down 71 of 103 cruise missiles launched at them... that was without warning or central management or command and communications normally used to defend against mass attacks.

    Plus... cheap is not something American MIC companies understand... the F-35 was supposed to be a cheap light fighter to replace all other fighters... exactly how is that going right now?

    Guided 57mm on the other hand is, or Irans (future) approach with guided 100mm KS-19 rounds. For area protection with missiles, I would avoid an ARH seeker SAM against such threats and that is what Soviet doctrine always did --> go for a cost effective solution.

    Guided 57mm shells wont be cheap and likely will only be used against manouvering targets.... against your average straight and level cruise missile (expensive or cheap) a volley of four to five 57mm air burst shells in a pattern around the expected target intercept point will shower any target with thousands of metal fragments that will make it an unflyable platform soon to meet the ground... probably in pieces. and cheaper than a medium missile that would otherwise be used.

    Sure attacking the bases of tactical airpower is THE key vulnerability that must be exploited.
    However the elements of tactical airpower that remain alive can exploit the traditional strength of it: tactical flexibility to attack where the opponents defenses where it is weakest with a concentration of your airpower assets on one single point.

    You point about cost effectiveness suggests you are talking about long term siege confrontations, which is likely a necessary thing for Syria vs Israel, but for Russia vs the EU or HATO... you piss on their shoes expect a response that will make you think twice about pissing on their shoes again... so if these super cheap CMs are the urine you only get to use them once and then they get put away.

    But even if they are amazing and 100% effective... so fucking what... are you thinking the Russians will then say you can attack us for less money than we can attack you so we give up... we will do what you tell us to do...

    The thing is that even with engines that are free they are going to have to make them much more stealthy for them to actually be effective... numbers have never been a problem for modern Russian air defences they make more SAMs than the rest of the world combined... and they can see and shoot down US cruise missiles. Making them stealthy means the price goes back up again... normally 10 fold at the very least...

    I'm a firm believer that traditional tactical airpower is obsolete in the days of precision BMs, CMs and HGV's.

    I think there is plenty of room for both... if you want to throw away all your tools except you hammer then you are restricted to only doing jobs involving nails.

    A ground launched cruise missile that is hypersonic with a range of 5,000km and can manouver to evade enemy air defences is an attractive tool... but sometimes you just have some ragheads to kill and an Su-24 with some dumb iron 250kg bombs can deliver your message just as clearly...

    Ground launched weapons are cheap, but put that same missile on a Backfire and fly it 3,000km closer to the target before launch and you get an 8,000km reach with a very capable weapon... and they can be the same weapon essentially... no need to reinvent the wheel...

    The Russians learned in Georgia that Iskander can hit targets with no risk of being shot down... despite Georgia having early model BUK missiles... they can hit point targets in any weather day and night with no risk to aircrew...

    But a cost effective stand-off weapon in the 500km class would give it a new life. If numbers are available and saturation attacks are possible, then flexibility of airpower becomes relevant again --> break enemy defenses at its weakest point and get behind their lines.

    You could already describe the Kinzhal on a Backfire as being that type of weapon... four carried per aircraft, should penetrate most land and sea air defences, and capable of delivering a serious blow to any enemy, but how do you know you wiped out the enemy air defence or if they have seen the way the wind is blowing and are keeping their heads low for a bit?

    Say 20 Tu-22M3s launch 80 Kinzhals at a weak point in NATO territory... lets say Poland... with the AEGIS Ashore base as the target plus Patriot batteries nearby too. Defeating those air defences... what is the next step? Enjoy the nuclear response?

    Lets turn it around and pretend these new super cheap engines mean America can have 10,000 cruise missiles and so they aim them all at Kaliningrad at all the known military and important economic targets there... they start launching their attacks but guess what... it takes time to launch 10,000 missiles and while they are launching them Iskanders start hitting the launch bases and being simple subsonic cruise missiles ground based and air based interceptors are killing lots of them before they get anywhere near their targets... the Russian armour regiments in the region are on alert and artillery units have started engaging border positions held by HATO troops... the cruise missiles start making it through to targets simply based on their overwhelming numbers but the targets they are hitting are empty and Bears and Blackjacks have just gotten airborne... and not with tactical weapons you understand... so tell me in the mess that ensues how does this new revolutionary cheap cruise missile really make any difference at all?  Except being cannon fodder...

    Cost effectiveness is key.

    No it is not. Any soldier from any army sees an enemy sniper or machine gun 2km away and is holding a Javelin will use that to take out the threat... spending three quarters of a million US dollars to kill one man is the opposite of cost effective, but it is more about the irresponsibility of the US MIC putting awfully expensive weapons in the hands of soldiers when cheap and simple could do the job... a $5K Metis missile has more explosive and would do a better job of turning the target into raspberry jam...

    Stopping the attack is the key for the air defence and that is all. Preventing more attacks is the job of Iskander battalions and their air force and other units ability to act against the enemy and to make them rethink their strategy of baiting the bear.

    An Iskander has just a booster as propulsion system and Iran too is going that way with its Fateh family. A screamjet or a HGV add cost of an additional propulsion system and extra heatshielding. To take out an airbase and its critical objects, you need a low cost weapon that does the job and already the Iskander has some added capabilities that may be unnecessary.

    The Iskander is exactly what they wanted and do want... they are not going to withdraw them now... they are going to expand their range which will make them more useful and capable.

    Put small nukes on them and they can take out area targets with one hit... but they are accurate enough to hit specific targets... what is not to like?

    In my opinion HGV equipped systems like the DF-17 are today only useful of you have to target a U.S carrier group. Iskander aeroballistic approach is sufficient to effectively counter THAAD/Arrow/PAC-3.

    In the 1980s the problem was precision... anything worse than 20-30m CEP is not good enough for a conventional warhead strike unless the target is a supercarrier... today the issues with precision have been solved so conventionally equipped IRBMs and SRBMs and MRBMs make sense and could be very very useful for a range of target types and having such weapons will free up more ICBMs and SLBMs for targeting the US...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5771
    Points : 5922
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:52 am



    Got to thinking, Pantsir and Hermes would be a real powerful combination. MLRS is probably the biggest threat to SHORAD, Hermes integration with Pantsir means it could knock MLRS out from 100km away allowing Pantsir to save up it's anti-air missiles by destroying the platform before it's allowed to expel all it's munitions. On top of that it (Hermes) will have a limited anti-air capacity allowing to knock out cruise missiles, CAS aircraft (Warthogs, Frogfoots, attack helicopters) as well drones when it's integrated into the Baikal-M command post.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24369
    Points : 24911
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:18 am

    The best counter battery weapon would be a Smerch battery with rockets loaded with anti armour submunitions. In terms of drones I would expect a 57mm gun with HE airburst rounds would be the cheapest, although a high performance drone with a 40mm grenade launcher launching grenades designed to travel about 40-50m and then explode forward with a claymore type payload... fly the drone around to intercept enemy drones... manouver to fly towards them and when 30-40m away fire a couple of 40mm grenades to shower the targets with fragments... should be more effective than a rifle calibre machine gun but with a much smaller lethal range... imagine launching a drone that shoots down enemy drones but ends up spraying rifle calibre machine gun fire all round your air base... the fragments from a 40mm grenade launcher would only be effective to 20m or so if directed forward as a cone of high velocity pellets or less if spherical burst is used... meaning no accidentally hitting locals or friendlies and doing it relatively cheap... fuel for a drone and a few 40mm grenades with no expensive fuses or timers.

    The local AD network could provide a radar picture showing enemy drone locations and you could have a few control vans and let some teenagers fly the defensive drones and shoot down the enemy drones... would be fun.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3759
    Points : 3843
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:04 pm

    Air defense systems are air defense systems, not anti everything. For counter battery you have other systems to do the job. You have Smerch, Tochka, Iskander, barrel artilery , suicide drones, etc There are also specialised complexes to detect artilery fire and guide strike on them.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24369
    Points : 24911
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:28 am

    I rather suspect rocket launchers would be the ideal response... have a few set up around the place loaded with anti armour submunition rockets... the instant your battlefield radar detects anything... which could be radar operating near airfields or units or it could be an airborne platform like the Ka-31, the point of origin should be fairly easy to determine... send those coordinates to the Smerch batteries and they can pretty much line up the targets and fire immediately... they could potentially launch their rockets before the artillery from the platforms they are engaging have even landed... the volume of fire power and the fact that it pretty much all lands at once so no time to find or take cover means that source of fire wont be used again...

    Of course ideally drones would spot enemy artillery when it is setting up so they wont even get to fire to start with, but I doubt that would be normal...

    Hermes missiles with terminal homing options including semi active laser (spot) homing or MMW radar guided or indeed some sort of optical guidance... IIR or digital TV could also be used against aerial targets... a truck trailer with 40 launch tubes looking like a Grad that could be used against a range of targets would be an interesting addition to a Pantsir battery if it could also be loaded with simple cheap command guided missiles...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5771
    Points : 5922
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:45 pm

    US fan boys are like "Pantsir no good!!!1!"

    ...Meanwhile Pantsir has been spotted protecting US base 'Camp Cooke' at Al-Taji in Iraq....probably because they don't haven anything in that class to protect themselves with. Oh boy, this keeps getting embarrassing for them! Embarassed Razz lol1

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 EVn0n62VAAAS3zN?format=jpg&name=900x900

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 EVn0meCU4AUlA1H?format=jpg&name=small

    Just like they need help from Russia to fight Covid-19 by providing them with ventilators, they also need Russia's help to get to space, and to fight drones too! Wink

    ...Also just recently Patriots failed against drones yet again! Iranian drones flying with impunity...

    Iran drones "walk" in the area of ​​responsibility of American air defense

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Bespilotniki-irana-gulyayut-v-zone-otvetstvennosti-amerikanskoi-pvo-msznpt3f-1586433061.t

    Iran received a full “picture” of the deployment of military equipment and missile defense / air defense systems at US bases located in the Middle East

    According to the information published on Twitter, the Iranian military using remote access learned how to crack the Patriot air defense and missile defense systems. To do this, reconnaissance drones were used, which broadcast radiation from electronic warfare systems, suppressing US radar stations.

    As evidence, Tehran published photographs showing how an Iranian UAV freely flies over the largest US military bases in neighboring Iraq and on the west coast of the Persian Gulf. At the same time, the Patriot air defense missile systems did not see him, although they were supposed to be detected when approaching a distance of 50 kilometers.

    The same situation was observed in the sky over Saudi Arabia, where Iranian drones removed everything that they wanted to see and at the same time were not detected by any air defense system.

    At the moment, it is not known how the Iranian military managed to achieve such success. However, according to experts, a significant role in this operation was played by the latest Russian electronic warfare systems delivered to Iran, which turned off the American air defense systems.

    https://vpk.name/news/392006_bespilotniki_irana_gulyayut_v_zone_otvetstvennosti_amerikanskoi_pvo.html

    And a friendly reminder of that time that a whole carrier group of SAM's was completely incapable of detecting and shooting down Iranian surveillance drones...yet again Persian drones fly with impunity!




    ...Remember guys Panstir is the SAM that struggles against drones... lol1
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1165
    Points : 1341
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:52 pm

    US fan boys are like "Pantsir no good!!!1!"

    Yes it's not good , it's a bad guy that gonna beat their munitions & aircrafts asses Smile
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5771
    Points : 5922
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:33 am

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 EWYwaq4WsAMLZ8s?format=jpg&name=large
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1212
    Points : 1253
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  dino00 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:27 pm

    From November

    Rosoboronexport pantsir S-1 export version


    Sponsored content

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 8 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue May 26, 2020 10:43 pm