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    Sino-Russian relations and trade

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:53 pm

    Gold. Diamonds. Virgins. Some of the new chinese warships (in that instance they would be useful for something.) Laughing Anything is better then the $.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:16 pm

    TMA1 wrote:Only 10 billion cm of natural gas? Over what time period? It is obviously a hell of a lot but I was expecting bigger deals. I still dont trust the Chinese. Many Chinese msm outlets are supporting far left movements here in America and frankly the Chinese seem to want to align more with neocons and neolibs rather than russia sometimes. For example I think China likes CAATSA and hope the west will sink the Russian MIC so they can swoop in and pick up the pieces.

    Am I wrong? Please tell me if so. I'm probably missing something. It is hard for me to sympathize with a nation even pretending to play at Marxism. Thry also seem to be apt to the same kind of underhanded games as our oligarchs in the west.

    China is trying to take over on the globalism front, because it's now in their interests for other countries to remove their trade barriers and protectionist policies.

    The US is reacting by trying to split the world along bipolar lines. Now Russia and China have reacted to that attempt and launched their own game.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:25 am

    This entire deal will be paid in EUROS.

    The next round of sanctions will be the strongest yet so working in US currency makes no sense at all... using Euros is an interesting gambit because the US is bound to demand the EU use its influence to effect those payments at the very least because it ticks all Americas boxes because it effects China and Russia an d the EU but not the US.

    Will be a good test... they can certainly change later down the track to Russian or Chinese currencies... or even be a mix of both.


    West continues to have the last laugh,

    The crazy laugh of someone who had things great and blew it because they are selfish narcissists.... in the dictionary I believe there is a picture of Tiger Woods in that particular entry...

    Only 10 billion cm of natural gas? Over what time period? It is obviously a hell of a lot but I was expecting bigger deals. I still dont trust the Chinese.

    10 billion is a good start.... and it is per year, there is no point in ordering 100 billion unless you know you can certainly use it.

    US and EU sanctions might lead to Chinese exports to the west being effected so production might not continue as expected.... they might have delays as they shift to other markets around the world with new trade partners and customers.

    You don't trust the Chinese... I would say lets look at track records and suggest white man speak with forked tongue and when white man speak... native man he talking to is the one the gets forked.

    All the agreements the US has been ripping up, who could trust them?

    Many Chinese msm outlets are supporting far left movements here in America and frankly the Chinese seem to want to align more with neocons and neolibs rather than russia sometimes.

    Well you have to allow for the fact that Chinese people in America are not the people in charge of China and are no longer "Chinese".

    I mean ethnically they are Chinese, but their allegiances are now American, which means no longer aligned with China.

    For example I think China likes CAATSA and hope the west will sink the Russian MIC so they can swoop in and pick up the pieces.

    They like the US abusing their power because it means a US collapse and isolation becomes more likely and will come sooner as countries are forced to make choices they would not normally need to take.

    Look at how India is feeling about the US demanding they stop buying S-400s and Su-35 type aircraft... the pressure from the US will be to buy THAAD and Patriot which will be vastly more expensive, and rather less capable and for what... next they will say the Su-30s and MiG-29s they operate can't be made compatible so you need to buy F-35s and F-16s and F-18s... and then it really gets expensive and they get more and more control because you don't buy US equipment, you lease it...

    It is hard for me to sympathize with a nation even pretending to play at Marxism.

    Well when more and more Americans move from middle class to the poverty line a new form of government where everyone gets a house and a job and no one is starving might become a bit more appealing... especially if you get sick.

    I remember a few comments in the 1990s from Americans that went in to Americanise Russia saying that with US superior management skills that a planned economy might actually be more efficient and better than a market economy which is more random and less reliable.

    A planned economy is about what the people need, while a market economy is about what is profitable.

    Thry also seem to be apt to the same kind of underhanded games as our oligarchs in the west.

    They are searching the world for resources just like the west does, but they build roads and schools and seem to be rather more popular with the locals than western colonial powers were.

    They don't send their military everywhere to help factions friendly to them (ie bribed) take power from any legitimate existing government...

    100 years ago the royal families of the middle east were created by the British and French... just after WW1 when they were dividing up the land based on known oil deposits.

    More recently islanders have been kicked off islands for nuclear weapons testing or to build runways and military bases... that was the UK and France and US... the Chinese built their own islands instead of uprooting and abusing people on existing islands.

    Yeah... as much as the west wants to demonise them... they are not as bad as the west has been.

    Gold. Diamonds. Virgins. Some of the new chinese warships (in that instance they would be useful for something.) Laughing Anything is better then the $.

    Would normally agree, but the virgins that China has an abundance of at the moment are probably male due to their one child policy... single spoilt men.
    Krepost
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    Post  Krepost Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:28 am

    Just for fun.

    Sino-Russian relations and trade - Page 10 Im-44612
    Sino-Russian relations and trade - Page 10 Im-46111


    Last edited by Krepost on Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Krepost
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    Post  Krepost Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:29 am

    And an old one.
    "You take the 3 on the right and I take the three on the left".
    Sino-Russian relations and trade - Page 10 Bg8y0611

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    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:00 am

    Ah, that old pic.
    I always thought the G20 on the mountain was off.
    Instead the artist should have put IMF instead.

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    par far


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    Post  par far Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:31 pm



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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:43 pm

    Ah, that old pic.
    I always thought the G20 on the mountain was off.
    Instead the artist should have put IMF instead.

    If you count the rat on the pigs ear it is actually the G7.

    Russia and China are both part of the G20 so you are right... that does not work.

    The G7 are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States, and in that picture:

    Canada is a rat, France is a rooster?, Germany is a dead nazi soldier skull, Italy is a pig, Japan is a snake skull, the United Kingdom is a lions head and the United States is a dead bald eagle skull.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:35 am

    Novaya Gazeta under the heading “Current Events Guarantee Victory for China. Russia's dependence on the Celestial Empire will begin to grow at a gigantic pace. Why?" published an interview with a well-known Russian sinologist, director of the Center for Comprehensive European and International Studies at the Higher School of Economics (HSE) and a former employee of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) Vasily Kashin .

    - China, as a rule, supports Russia when voting at the UN, and now it has already abstained twice. What does this say about his position?

    Vasily Kashin: - The Chinese usually stand in solidarity with Russia, but in some cases, when the Russian position is too contradictory, when support directly involves China in some kind of deep conflict, where it does not want to get involved, then it refrains. An example is the Chinese vote during one of the meetings of the UN Security Council during the aggravation of the crisis around the Syrian city of Aleppo in 2016. There was an assault on the city, everyone terribly condemned Russia, but China abstained.

    When it comes to territorial issues, China also abstains, for example, when Russia annexed Crimea. Therefore, it was predictable that China would abstain from voting on the condemnation of Russia on the issue of the territorial conflict in Ukraine. A yes vote would cause direct foreign policy damage to the Chinese.

    They will never support the violation of territorial integrity on the basis of referendums. That is why they could not support either Crimea or the recognition of the "people's republics" of Donbass.

    “They have Taiwan right next to them.

    “That's right: the referendum is the Taiwanese separatists' favorite tool. And the Chinese will not approve such a precedent, they will not subscribe to it. However, this does not reflect their attitude towards Russia's actions. In the issue of the same Crimea, the Chinese provided some practical support to Russia.

    - Practical - what is it?


    — For two years, in 2014-2015, they gave Russia loans to refinance company debts for more than $30 billion. And they built an energy bridge to the Crimea, since a special submarine cable of such power is produced only in one of the European countries and in China. What they could do. But of course, they will not shoot themselves in the foot out of love for Russia.

    - But love for Russia itself - does it exist? If, say, China has to choose whom to "love" more - Russia or the United States, who will it choose?


    We have common interests with China. Both countries are involved in a confrontation with the US. In China, it began in 2018, and in 2020, against the backdrop of covid, there was also a sharp deterioration in relations. At some point, even before the start of hostilities in Ukraine, China was close to Russia in terms of hostility to the United States. When the "military special operation" in Ukraine began, we already had a simple break in ties, and China still has only bad relations.

    At the same time, the Americans have an understanding: Russia, no matter what it does, does not pose a systemic threat to American dominance in the world economy and cannot claim world leadership. And China is indeed an existential threat to the US. Their economic models are incompatible. Therefore, the struggle between the US and China will go on until one of the parties loses and retreats.

    So far, we have a common interest with China: to oppose and harm the United States.

    Can China use this as a tool against the US? Will he help Russia to spite America?


    — They helped us, as I already said, in 2014‒2015. Now our stability is based on the fact that, judging by the latest data, we have transferred a significant part of our gold and foreign exchange reserves into Chinese securities. We have about $130 billion now in yuan assets. That is why the actions of the US and the EU led to the arrest of only half of Russia's gold and foreign exchange reserves. And given that the reserves were initially excessive, the situation is not as sad as it could be.

    In addition, in recent years, China has been very actively replacing Europe in a number of market segments related to the supply of components, industrial equipment, and so on. We gradually saw a decrease in the share of Europe and an increase in the share of China in trade; last year, China was already about half of the European level. I expected China to catch up with Europe in terms of trade with Russia within about 10 years. But now we have practically a blockade from Europe, there are supplies of energy carriers and certain goods, and it is not clear what will happen to them next.

    And now, I think China will be our main trading partner either this year or next.

    And further, Russia's dependence on trade with China will begin to grow at a gigantic pace.

    — How useful is the transfer of reserves in yuan, if it is an inconvertible currency?


    - The yuan is included in the basket of IMF reserve currencies, although there are indeed certain restrictions, it is not as convenient for making international payments as the dollar and the euro. But the share of the yuan in the settlements was constantly growing, and in principle it is possible to conduct international trade in yuan, albeit with slightly higher transaction costs.

    And with China, you can simply trade in yuan, we have a legal framework for this for a long time. And there is trading in the yuan-ruble currency pair, that is, there is no need to convert them through the dollar, there is an infrastructure for this.

    And you can, as I understand it, try to use the yuan in settlements with third countries. China generally has a goal - to promote the yuan as an instrument of international settlements. I think that what is happening today will give the potential for a powerful breakthrough in this direction. For China, this could be a good moment.

    - What can we get from China when the volume of trade increases? For example, automakers stop deliveries of cars and spare parts to Russia. Can China replace them?

    China is the world's largest manufacturer of industrial products of all kinds. I believe that Chinese automakers will take the place of Korean and European ones. They, apparently, can somehow get the production assets.

    - All these factories in the Leningrad region, in Kaluga and others will go to the Chinese?


    - I think yes. We already have assembly plants of Chinese car manufacturers, for example, Haval. At an earlier stage, the Chinese tried to enter Russia, but were not very competitive. Now they will come here again - and this will be a powerful export breakthrough for the Chinese auto industry, after all, Russia is not the smallest market, and the Chinese here, as I assume, will become the dominant force.

    They have bad cars.

    - It's not like that anymore. They invested a lot in quality improvement, they followed the path of the Koreans. And now the reputation of Chinese cars as "buckets of nuts" is not true, the quality is acceptable. In some ways, of course, they can lose, but in some ways they are comparable to budget models of European cars. Plus, they have no competition in Russia. That is, the Chinese have two directions here. The first is the occupation of the Russian car market where European imports will leave, the second is the gradual replacement of Europeans in the supply of auto components.

    - Once I inadvertently bought Chinese headlights for a Volkswagen, then I really regretted it.

    - What year was that?

    - About eight years ago.

    - It was a different reality, then the reputation of the Chinese auto industry was different.

    - In Russia, the car fleet is predominantly European and Korean, in the coming years, spare parts will be needed specifically for it.

    — I think the Chinese will be able to supply them. The same cars are sold on the Chinese market, where they have a much higher localization, and all this will most likely go to Russia. Even if the Europeans try to prevent this, then, given the Chinese realities, a huge number of resellers will immediately appear who will provide any flow of spare parts. Although here, of course, it is necessary to talk with experts in the automotive industry.

    - A much more serious problem awaits us with the fleet, when Western companies withdraw the leased aircraft, stop serving those that remain in Russia, and will not even sell spare parts. We will stay with the Superjets, and a dozen and a half of them are produced a year.

    - "Superjets" we can produce more...

    - Only their engines consist of French components, which will not be.


    - It's true. But in this regard, China cannot help us. The Chinese are even worse off than we are because their civil aviation programs are even more dependent on foreign components than our Superjet. And if we have the possibility of at least limited production of old and completely Russian models - Tu-204 or Il-96, then the Chinese do not see such prospects.

    Most likely, they will not be able to help us in the aviation industry.

    - How will China help our "special operation" industrial complex? It also depends on supplies from the West, doesn't it?

    - With our military-industrial complex, it's just easier. Both in our country and among the Chinese, it has been under almost comprehensive Western sanctions for a very long time. The Chinese have been strengthening in recent years, and we have cooperated with them in the military-industrial sphere. Apparently, cooperation will grow, I believe that sanctions will have the least impact on it. The only thing, due to the complete impossibility of buying Western industrial equipment, we will buy more Chinese.

    “We received from the West not only equipment, but also technologies and software. Here, too, can we count on China?

    - It is impossible, of course, to talk about all technologies at once, this field consists of a thousand different directions. According to some of them, China has already become one of the world leaders, and according to others, it can only copy something sadly. There is a group of industries where we can develop powerful synergy with China, we can work together.

    They will be interested in using Russian developers, mathematicians.

    There are areas where they may be interested in industrial cooperation, there are areas where they are able to meet our needs for equipment. And they already have enterprises that, as part of the economic war with the United States, are under American sanctions. Including manufacturers of electronics and certain types of industrial equipment. Such enterprises simply God himself ordered to go to the Russian market. Although it is clear that there will be a number of areas where Chinese equipment will not be able to replace European equipment, and Russia will still try to purchase it in Europe through some channels.

    - Will China be able to replace equipment for the oil and gas sector?


    - Some kinds can. China is doing very well with equipment for the electric power industry, as well as with transport engineering. If our friends start refusing to service us, say, "Sapsanov" or in spare parts, then China copied, improved and produces similar trains a long time ago. Although there are areas where they will not be able to help us.

    For example, medical equipment?

    - In fact, the Chinese are just large manufacturers of medical equipment. This also manifested itself during the covid crisis, when it was they who increased the export of, for example, ventilators.

    - And the quality?

    - Yes, in general, the whole world bought their equipment, including the Americans, no one particularly complained. Although medical equipment is a delicate thing, I can’t speak with confidence here, you need to ask narrow specialists.

    - Russia, apparently, will not only have to look for imports somewhere, but also somewhere to put its exports. Does China need so much gas, oil, metal and everything that Russia supplies to Europe?


    - Potentially, yes. China is 80% dependent on iron ore imports and 70% dependent on oil imports. And he will greatly increase gas consumption, as he set an ambitious goal of reducing CO2 emissions. At the same time, China's relations with the United States are aggravated, and this is expressed in economic wars that involve America's allies - Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And these are our direct competitors as suppliers of wood, gas, oil and other raw materials to China. Therefore, China will have an interest in reorientation.

    Where will the infrastructure for this come from? Experts laugh at Power of Siberia: there is no gas at one end, and consumers at the other.

    — The sharp increase in deliveries to China really requires a new export infrastructure — the construction of new pipelines, the expansion of the railway network, the construction of port facilities. This will take time and investment. That is, it is impossible to instantly increase exports to China. In addition, when China becomes a monopoly buyer for many of our products, it will have the opportunity to dictate prices. And you have to live with it.

    This will allow our industry to survive and provide employment, but we will lose money until there is a reduction in foreign political tensions around Russia.

    - That is, until we can return to trade with the West?


    - Generally speaking, yes. This will be a very high degree of dependence.

    — The Chinese do not give investments just like that, they put forward very strict requirements for their share of the profits.

    - They are not so tough, they behave like normal investors: if they see an opportunity to squeeze you somewhere, they will do it.

    - As a result, Russia will have a huge dependence on China, much more than now on the West. What does this threaten us with, except that the Chinese will begin to dictate prices?

    - If economic dependence reaches a very high level, then China will have the opportunity to use the levers of economic diplomacy to influence our political positions.

    Is China generally inclined to political pressure on those who depend on it?

    — China has recently been developing a policy of sanctions pressure and economic coercion.

    In cases where they believe that someone has violated their fundamental interests, they do it very harshly.

    It can be for any wrong position on the issue of Taiwan, for supporting any opposition movement within China. They have been waging a sanctions war against Australia since 2020. They didn't do that with Russia.

    - Bye.

    “Just keep in mind that they can do it too. Before the “special military operation” in Ukraine began, it was believed that China would reach the level of the European Union in trade with us for another ten years, and in the meantime we would develop ties with other Asian countries. And by the time Europe has reduced its importance, we will have, in addition to China, good trade with other states. But the sanctions have already dealt a blow to our relations with South Korea and Japan. Now everything has accelerated, and a complete reorientation towards China, I think, will take place within a year or two.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4494288.html

    - If China decides to put pressure on a partner, does it concern its position on some purely Chinese affairs, such as relations with Taiwan, or may it want to correct something in Russian domestic policy?

    — Why the Chinese are good as partners, for which many people love them, is their non-interference in internal affairs.

    - That is, they will not demand respect for human rights and other "nonsense"?

    - Will not. And there is a specific example that dates back to the 1990s. He played an important role in creating an atmosphere of Russian-Chinese trust. If you remember, then there was a period when the communists controlled the executive power in many Russian regions and had the largest faction in the State Duma. They demonstrated to China in every possible way that they love it and want to be friends. But China, having such a trump card, did not take a single step. They did not have any activity, except for inter-party relations and joint trips to the Mausoleum. As far as I understand, the leadership of Russia, back in the Yeltsin era, appreciated this. Therefore, there is a certain level of trust.

    - In the 1990s, China could not influence much.

    - They had the opportunity to get into politics with us, but they did not use it.

    “They didn’t help Russia in the 1990s the way the West did.

    - Our entire defense industry survived at the expense of China. That is, the Chinese still played their role.

    - It turns out that not directly, but China can actually support the “special operation” in Ukraine? Because sanctions are designed to stop hostilities, and China can smooth out their effect on Russia?

    - It would be correct to formulate it this way: China will not spoil relations with Russia for the sake of pressure towards ending the “special operation”.

    Western sanctions will not be lifted, even if stopped now, they are designed to destroy the Russian economy and lead to regime change. And China is clearly not interested in this.

    The Chinese do not like the "special operation" in itself, it surprised them, there is a statement by the Minister of Foreign Affairs Wang Yi about this, but they do not need the defeat of Russia.

    - China, it turns out, in this situation - the only beneficiary. Does he sit quietly and wait "until the corpse of the enemy floats by"?

    - Exactly. Armed conflicts, as we know, benefit the most from those who do not participate in them. In fact, all these developments guarantee China's victory in the new cold war. Everyone involved in this will suffer the heaviest economic losses, and China hardly. Probably, it will be affected by the rise in energy prices, but strategically its positions will have to be strengthened. And Russia will become economically dependent on him. Another important factor: after the introduction of extreme sanctions against Russia, the United States has no tools to contain it, except for the military. Accordingly, significant US military forces will be tied to Europe and cannot be used to contain China in Asia.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:36 pm

    - As a result, Russia will have a huge dependence on China, much more than now on the West. What does this threaten us with, except that the Chinese will begin to dictate prices?

    - If economic dependence reaches a very high level, then China will have the opportunity to use the levers of economic diplomacy to influence our political positions.

    The levers wont be any more effective with Chinese hands pulling them as they did with US or EU hands.

    Russia will just develop its own capability in that area of technology... expensive and slow, but eventually independent.

    — China has recently been developing a policy of sanctions pressure and economic coercion.

    Against all their trading partners or against those that try to use sanctions and economic threats against them?

    It can be for any wrong position on the issue of Taiwan, for supporting any opposition movement within China. They have been waging a sanctions war against Australia since 2020. They didn't do that with Russia.

    Russia has no interest in damaging China, and is not working for the Americans like Australia does.

    America wants to damage China and Russia and everyone who isn't the US really... it is natural to sanction them.

    But the sanctions have already dealt a blow to our relations with South Korea and Japan. Now everything has accelerated, and a complete reorientation towards China, I think, will take place within a year or two.

    Japan and SK are US puppets and wont be independent until they change that for themselves.

    Bad relations with Russia is US interests, not theirs.


    — Why the Chinese are good as partners, for which many people love them, is their non-interference in internal affairs.

    - That is, they will not demand respect for human rights and other "nonsense"?

    If only the west was like that... they would be rather more tolerable, and have much cleaner hands, and tell rather fewer lies per second.

    - It turns out that not directly, but China can actually support the “special operation” in Ukraine? Because sanctions are designed to stop hostilities, and China can smooth out their effect on Russia?

    Western sanctions are not supports to stop hostilities... the west supplies weapons to prolong hostilities and make them more painful for Russians and Ukrainians alike.

    The West has been pushing for this war for a very long time and had to stoop to nuclear and biological weapons to achieve it... the same WMDs that they claimed they invaded Iraq for, they were prepared to give to Nazis in the Ukraine to get the bear to attack.

    And Russia will become economically dependent on him.

    The EU has shown itself to be the arse end of the human centipede and unable to remove itself from Americas arse, so there it can stay, and Russia can look to China to replace what it lost, but there is the entire rest of the world they can trade with too where they can get what they want and also sell their products and services.

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    Post  Pacense Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:43 pm

    https://www.theklaxon.com.au/home/china-russian-border-drills

    Nice article. A push from China will be met with severe costs for its military. Can't see that happen.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:47 am

    Hahaha... the US led wests wet dream of a conflict between Russia and China... it simply is not going to happen no matter how much Australia or other US bitches want it to.

    It is funny that western training and exercises are peaceful and mean nothing at all, while aggression and invasion attempts can be the only reason for anyone else having exercises...

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:29 pm

    Really surprised there was nor a thread on this, easily the most important relationship that Russia, as well as Putin, has.

    Start with this, a man starting on a very, very long road that leads him to Moscow.

    Sino-Russian relations and trade - Page 10 Fr5nBQsaMAAfhVE?format=jpg&name=small

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:09 pm

    Shoigu?  Laughing
    Just kidding.
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    Post  Kiko Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:50 am

    Why China is seriously changing its position on NWO, by Gevorg Mirzayan for RiaNovosti. 12.11.2023.

    The official representative of the PRC made a statement that can be interpreted as a clear and significant shift in Beijing’s position in relation to what is happening in Ukraine. Previously, China, at least from the point of view of foreign policy rhetoric, expressed neutrality, although positive, but now it clearly justifies and supports the Russian special operation. Why?

    “This is a very independent nation. President Putin makes decisions based on national interests and security.” This is exactly how the director of the European Department of the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Wang Lutong, commented on the requests of European politicians to convince Russia to make concessions on the Ukrainian issue. Simply put, the Chinese comrades politely refused to play the role of mediator.

    And in this statement from the Chinese side there are several important, to some extent even breakthrough, points. First of all, the very fact of refusing mediation in resolving the Ukrainian crisis. Until recently, the Chinese claimed the role of a mediator: they put forward their general 12-point plan and promoted it in every possible way. Moreover, he was extremely general, and therefore omnivorous.

    Now China has openly admitted that the continuation of hostilities (a decision that  the Russian authorities made - at least until “the West abandons its plans to maintain its dominance and its obsession with inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia at the hands of its Kiev puppets”) is an element of “national interests and security of Russia”. That is, he actually recognized this decision as correct and legitimate. What kind of mediation is possible in this case?

    Previously, we recall, the Chinese refrained from such obvious support for Russian actions during the special operation. If only because they were afraid of drawing any parallels and associations with Taiwan, which was striving to turn its de facto independence into de jure.

    So what forced the Chinese side to change their position? Apparently, there are three most important factors.

    Firstly, the Chinese realized that the role of a mediator in resolving the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is no longer relevant. After a series of military defeats for the Kyiv regime (and, above all, the failure of the counteroffensive), it seemed that some window of opportunity was opening up in the matter of peace negotiations. However, the West is not yet ready for serious discussions with Moscow based on a realistic assessment of the situation. I am not ready to enter into negotiations with the recognition of new Russian territories, I am not ready to merge the Kiev regime and abandon the course of containment.

    The maximum he is ready for is to put forward a proposal to freeze the conflict - which Moscow will not accept under any circumstances. Because these proposals contradict the Russian Constitution, the logic of military operations and the logic of internal political processes in Russia.

    So, on December 8, 2023, Vladimir Putin officially voiced his desire to seek a new term - and he did this not in the presence of politicians and journalists, but surrounded by military personnel and their relatives. That is, as Russian political scientist Sergei Markov correctly noted , “Putin is going to the polls as the military leader of a warring country.” “Today he once again took upon himself the obligation to knock Ukraine out of Slavyansk, from the DPR, to knock Ukraine out of Donbass,” the expert believes .

    What kind of truce is there, what kind of peace negotiations? Apparently, the window for them will not come until the beginning of 2025, when a new administration comes to power in the United States.

    Yes, the Chinese could still talk to Moscow somewhere behind the scenes, prepare the ground for some kind of concessions in the interests of the European Union - but why? After all - and this is the second factor explaining Chinese rigidity - the EU has done nothing to ask for favors politely.

    Wang Lutong's statement itself was made on the sidelines of the China-EU summit, during which European officials came to Beijing to solve bilateral economic problems. And they arrived, in fact, not only with a package of proposals, but also with a set of threats against Beijing.

    “China is the EU's most important trading partner. However, there are clear imbalances and differences that we must address,” said  European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. By imbalances we mean, of course, imbalances in trade. In 2022, it exceeded $400 billion, thereby increasing by 60% over the last two years.

    And such a deficit, according to the head of European diplomacy, Josep Borrell, did not arise due to free competition. “This is largely due to the very high level of government subsidies provided to Chinese companies, as well as the ever-increasing barriers to entry into the Chinese market,” the European official said indignantly . And he threatens China with protective sanctions if Beijing does not make concessions.

    And not only on the economy, but also on the issue of relations with Russia. “From the very beginning of the war, it was clear to us that how China positioned itself in relation to Russian aggression towards Ukraine would determine our relationship,”  said Ursula von der Leyen.

    However, Brussels forgot that they are not Trump, and this is not 2018, when it was possible to put harsh and relatively successful pressure on China.

    Now the Chinese are taking such pressure with hostility. And not only because non-subject, non-sovereignty and disrespected European puppets are putting pressure - but also because over the past five years the Chinese side has become convinced that the West’s course to contain China is as obvious and irreversible as the trend towards defeat of Ukraine. That the West is not ready to negotiate with Beijing, that it views China as an existential threat that must be crushed by any means necessary.

    And this is the third factor toughening the Chinese position on the Russian issue. Thanks to American pressure, Beijing is gradually abandoning the balancing act with chairs and is no longer only de facto, but also de jure taking the Russian side in the Ukrainian conflict.

    And all because China is a very independent nation. And Chairman Xi makes decisions based on national interests and security.

    https://vz.ru/world/2023/12/11/1243643.html

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    Post  Kiko Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:57 pm

    Russia-China energy trade soaring – deputy PM, 12.15.2023.

    The two countries have been ramping up economic cooperation at an unprecedented pace.

    Russia supplied more oil and petroleum products to China in the first ten months of this year than during the whole of 2022, as Moscow ramps up energy cooperation with the Asian country, Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Novak revealed on Friday.

    Speaking at a meeting of the Russia-China intergovernmental commission in Beijing, he said Russia would further boost energy supplies, adding that Moscow also wants to lure Chinese investment and technology into its energy sector.

    “We are committed to the closest partnership with the Chinese side in the energy sector and in all areas of cooperation. We are talking about both further increasing the supply of Russian energy resources to the Chinese market and attracting Chinese investments and advanced technological solutions to the fuel and energy complex of the Russian Federation,” the deputy prime minister stated.

    Russia emerged as China’s fifth-largest trading partner (excluding Hong Kong and Taiwan) from January through November, behind the US, EU, South Korea, and Japan.

    Trade turnover between Russia and China has already exceeded a target of $200 billion set by Moscow and Beijing with a third of that volume accounting for energy supply, Novak noted.

    According to Chinese customs data, trade volumes with Russia increased by 26.7% in the first 11 months of 2023, amounting to a record $218.17 billion.

    Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Andrey Belousov had earlier forecast that bilateral trade would grow to $300 billion by the end of the decade.

    https://www.rt.com/business/589137-russia-china-energy-trade-soaring/

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    Post  JohninMK Fri May 17, 2024 8:11 am

    Started a new thread as I couldn't find an existing one.

    The size of the Russian team in China was unprecedented, every main department had its leader and team there to meet their opposite numbers, so smoothing future work. I can't remember this happening anywhere before.

    This agreement will form the basis of the World for the next 100 years so I have posted the whole thing but it takes a lot of space. Feel free to trim it Garry, this is the link https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1791303781218693145

    Arnaud Bertrand
    @RnaudBertrand
    Wow, China and Russia issued an extraordinary joint statement yesterday, with almost 8,000 words when translated into English, and in many ways more important than the famous "no limits" partnership statement in February 2022.

    Here are the points that stood out for me.

    BUILDING A NEW WORLD ORDER
    The statement says that it is an "objective factor" that "the status and strength of emerging major countries and regions in the 'Global South' [are] continuously increasing", and that "the trend of world multipolarity [is] accelerating". This in turn "accelerates the redistribution of development potential, resources, and opportunities in a direction favorable to emerging markets and developing countries, promoting the democratization of international relations and international fairness and justice".

    They point out that "countries that adhere to hegemonism and power politics are contrary to this trend, attempting to replace and subvert the international order based on international law with a so-called 'rules-based order'".

    Security-wise, the statement says that "both sides believe that the fate of the peoples of all countries is interconnected, and no country should seek its own security at the expense of others' security. Both sides express concern about the current international and regional security challenges and point out that in the current geopolitical context, it is necessary to explore the establishment of a sustainable security system in the Eurasian space based on the principle of equal and indivisible security."

    They go on to say that China and Russia "will fully tap the potential of bilateral relations" in order to "promote the realization of an equal and orderly multipolar world and the democratization of international relations, and gather strength to build a just and reasonable multipolar world".

    As for the vision of this world order these 2 principles seem to be the foundational ones:
    1) An order with no "neo-colonialism and hegemonism" of any kind: "All countries have the right to independently choose their development models and political, economic, and social systems based on their national conditions and people's will, oppose interference in the internal affairs of sovereign countries, oppose unilateral sanctions and 'long-arm jurisdiction' without international law basis or UN Security Council authorization, and oppose drawing ideological lines. Both sides pointed out that neo-colonialism and hegemonism are completely contrary to the trend of the times, and called for equal dialogue, the development of partnerships, and the promotion of exchanges and mutual learning among civilizations."
    2) An order based on the UN Charter: "Both sides will continue to firmly defend the achievements of World War II and the post-war world order established by the UN Charter"

    EXTREMELY STRONG CONDEMNATION OF THE US
    This condemnation starts with the paragraph highlighted above that "countries that adhere to hegemonism and power politics are contrary to [the trend towards a multipolar world order]", and the statement also condemns the fact that these "countries" (i.e. mostly the US) are "attempting to replace and subvert the international order based on international law with a so-called 'rules-based order'".

    They also write that "both sides call on relevant countries and organizations to stop taking confrontational policies and interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, undermining the existing security architecture, creating 'small yards with high fences' among countries, provoking regional tensions, and advocating for camp confrontation."

    They further say that "both sides oppose the hegemonic actions of the United States to change the balance of power in the Northeast Asia region by expanding its military presence and forming military blocs. The US, with its Cold War mentality and camp confrontation model, puts 'small group' security above regional security and stability, endangering the security of all countries in the region. The US should stop such actions."

    On top of that the statement speaks of "serious concern about the United States' attempts to undermine strategic stability to maintain its absolute military superiority, including building a global missile defense system and deploying missile defense systems around the world and in space, strengthening the ability to disable the opponent's military actions with precision non-nuclear weapons and 'decapitation' strikes, enhancing NATO's 'nuclear sharing' arrangements in Europe and providing 'extended deterrence' to specific allies, constructing infrastructure in the South Pacific Nuclear-Free Zone treaty member Australia that could be used to support US and UK nuclear forces, engaging in US-UK-Australia nuclear submarine cooperation, and implementing plans to deploy and provide land-based intermediate-range and short-range missiles to allies in the Asia-Pacific and Europe."

    The statement also condemns "the United States' unconstructive and hostile 'dual containment' policy towards China and Russia": "The United States' actions of conducting joint exercises with its allies ostensibly aimed at China and Russia and taking steps to deploy land-based intermediate-range missiles in the Asia-Pacific region have raised serious concerns for both sides. The United States claims it will continue these practices with the ultimate goal of establishing routine missile deployments worldwide. Both sides strongly condemn these actions, which are extremely destabilizing to the region and pose a direct security threat to China and Russia, and will strengthen coordination and cooperation to respond to the United States' unconstructive and hostile 'dual containment' policy towards China and Russia."

    On Asia-Pacific specifically they write that "both sides oppose the creation of exclusive and closed group structures in the Asia-Pacific region, especially military alliances targeting any third party. Both sides point out that the US "Indo-Pacific Strategy" and NATO's attempts to take destructive actions in the Asia-Pacific region have negative impacts on the peace and stability of the region."

    They also "demand that the United States refrain from engaging in any biological military activities that threaten the security of other countries and regions" and they oppose the "use [of] outer space for armed confrontation and oppose the implementation of security policies and activities aimed at achieving military advantage and defining outer space as a 'combat domain.'"

    Lastly the statement condemns "the US and its allies' deterrent actions in the military field, provoking confrontation with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and exacerbating tensions on the Korean Peninsula, potentially leading to armed conflict", and asks that "the United States and NATO, as the responsible parties for the 20-year invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, should not attempt to deploy military facilities in Afghanistan and its surrounding areas again but should bear primary responsibility for Afghanistan's current economic and livelihood difficulties, bear the main costs of Afghanistan's reconstruction, and take all necessary measures to unfreeze Afghanistan's national assets."

    ENORMOUS EXPANSION OF CHINA-RUSSIA COLLABORATION
    This will be my last point, the statement has an immense list - dozens and dozens of items - of expanded cooperation fields between both countries.

    These are some of the most important ones:
    - Military cooperation: "[both sides] will further deepen military mutual trust and cooperation, expand the scale of joint training activities, regularly organize joint maritime and air patrols, strengthen coordination and cooperation within bilateral and multilateral frameworks, and continuously improve the ability and level of jointly responding to risks and challenges."
    - More trade, mutual investments and help each other economic development: "continuously expand the scale of bilateral trade", "continuously improve the level of investment cooperation between the two countries", and "jointly develop advanced industries, strengthen technical and production cooperation, including in the civil aviation manufacturing industry, shipbuilding industry, automobile manufacturing industry, equipment manufacturing industry, electronics industry, metallurgical industry, iron ore mining industry, chemical industry, and forest industry"
    - Cooperation on energy: "consolidate the strategic cooperation in energy between China and Russia and achieve high-level development, ensuring the economic and energy security of the two countries. Strive to ensure the stability and sustainability of the international energy market, and maintain the stability and resilience of the global energy industry chain and supply chain." Also nuclear energy: "deepen cooperation in the field of civilian nuclear energy based on the experience of successful and ongoing projects, including thermonuclear fusion, fast neutron reactors, and closed nuclear fuel cycles"
    - Promote each others' currencies and financial infrastructure: "Increase the proportion of local currency in bilateral trade, financing, and other economic activities. Improve the financial infrastructure of the two countries, smooth the settlement channels between the two countries' business entities, strengthen regulatory cooperation in the banking and insurance industries of China and Russia, promote the sound development of banks and insurance institutions established in each other's countries, encourage two-way investment, and issue bonds in the financial markets of each other's countries in accordance with market principles."
    - Deep education and scientific cooperation: "promote the expansion and improvement of quality in mutual study abroad programs, advance Chinese language teaching in Russia and Russian language teaching in China, encourage educational institutions to expand exchanges, cooperation in running schools, conduct high-level talent joint training and scientific research, support cooperation in basic research fields between universities, support activities of alliances of similar universities and high schools, and deepen cooperation in vocational and digital education"
    - Cooperation in the media and shaping public opinions: "Strengthen media exchanges between the two countries, promote mutual visits at various levels, support pragmatic and professional dialogues, actively carry out high-quality content cooperation, deeply explore the cooperation potential of new media and new technologies in the field of mass media, objectively and comprehensively report major global events, and spread true information in the international public opinion field."
    - Cooperation within global institutions: "deepen bilateral cooperation [at] the UN General Assembly and the Security Council", "supporting the role of the World Health Organization", "strengthen cooperation within the WTO framework", "cooperation within the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)", "uphold the BRICS spirit, enhance the BRICS mechanism's voice in international affairs and agenda", etc.

    I could go on and on, the scale of the cooperation they detail is absolutely breathtaking, both countries are going all in with each other.

    This statement is absolutely extraordinary and will likely shape the world for decades to come. We now have Russia and China explicitly stating they're all in with each other to bring about a new "equal and orderly multipolar world and the democratization of international relations", and put an end to US hegemonic behavior. No more pretend, it's happening.
    4:04 AM · May 17, 2024
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    Post  kvs Fri May 17, 2024 8:25 am

    The US is openly declaring war on China both economic and military. China's leadership has concluded that it can weather this storm with tight
    cooperation with Russia. It would not make sense to not ally with Russia since the US and its minions are not giving China this option. The whole
    Russia is propped up by China in Ukraine smear job is affirmation of this fact. We also have bleating from NATzO that China's production capacity
    is too big. The self-declared exceptional nation, America, cannot tolerate economic competition and China has a bigger economy (in real terms)
    than the USA.

    The US is biting way off more than it can chew. Taking on both Russia and China is essentially a guaranteed loss. The only "solution" is for
    nuclear suicide. But that is not going to achieve the objective of retaining global dominance. The US will be glassed and very effectively.

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    Post  GarryB Fri May 17, 2024 10:07 am

    The point is that like with the Ukraine, Russia is offering cooperation and trade without making demands on who else Ukraine or in this case China chooses to trade with.

    The west on the other hand demand not just exclusive trade relations, they also demand to vet who else you trade with and many of your products will be tariffed... and don't respond in kind because you aren't allowed to do that... we punish bad behaviour... our bad behaviour is to be ignored.

    That alone will make them realise BRICS is their alternative to dealing with the west...

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    Post  kvs Fri May 17, 2024 10:14 am

    The only reason for any country to not follow BRICS is because it is run by a US and minion stooge regime. Like Argentina, for example.
    Countries that have a reasonable level of self-interest should see through all the imperial western BS.

    I am glad to see China's fair trade and investment policy displacing the rotten west in Africa and elsewhere. I just hope that the people
    there appreciate this. The USSR experience is that humans have broken mentalities. If you are good to them, then they develop resentment
    complexes, but if you beat them down, then they defer to you and even respect you. Western colonialism has been leveraging this pathology.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri May 17, 2024 12:52 pm

    kvs wrote:The only reason for any country to not follow BRICS is because it is run by a US and minion stooge regime.   Like Argentina, for example.
    Countries that have a reasonable level of self-interest should see through all the imperial western BS.  

    I am glad to see China's fair trade and investment policy displacing the rotten west in Africa and elsewhere.   I just hope that the people
    there appreciate this.   The USSR experience is that humans have broken mentalities.  If you are good to them, then they develop resentment
    complexes, but if you beat them down, then they defer to you and even respect you.   Western colonialism has been leveraging this pathology.


    I would hope for Italy to become as well a part of it, but it is currently impossible. Italy is not a sovereign country and it is a US puppet (probably with even some secret agreement not available to be read by the citizens) since September 8th, 1943.

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    Post  George1 Fri May 17, 2024 6:20 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Started a new thread as I couldn't find an existing one.


    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7839-sino-russian-relations-and-trade

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    Post  GarryB Sat May 18, 2024 6:02 am

    If you are good to them, then they develop resentment
    complexes, but if you beat them down, then they defer to you and even respect you. Western colonialism has been leveraging this pathology.

    Yes, I call it nice guy syndrome... if you are nice and generous they stop appreciating it and start to expect it and over time they start taking advantage and you find you are doing things that are really not in your interests to do... but you created the nice relationship and you become bound to deliver... but guess what happens if you ever say no.

    All the good you have done is forgotten and you are a prick... worse than the people screwing them over all sorts of things.

    You really have to be careful because when they go to far and you finally say no they treat you like you are the monster that has never helped them with anything.

    Honestly most of the time if they aren't family I realise it is just an abusive relationship with them taking advantage of my good nature and we don't go back to where we were... or if it is the boss then I quit.

    Funny how it is not until you are gone the other people you work with realise how much extra you did that doesn't get done when you are not there.

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    Post  JohninMK Sat May 18, 2024 6:41 am

    This relationship is going to be deeply embedded in society if this is anything to go by.

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