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    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:34 am

    So why Russia still choose the 30mm cannon for Mi-28 and Ka-52 ? These ones deal with something tougher ?

    If you look at the gun history of the Hind it pretty much explains it to a point.

    The Hind started with a 4 barrel 12.7mm HMG in its nose that was very effective and accurate but lacked range when the enemy was firing back with the same calibre HMGs.

    The solution was cannon but their first attempt with a 30mm cannon in a chin turret failed because of excessive recoil so they put a twin barrel 30mm cannon attached to the fuselage. This was also very powerful.... just look at the left vid in Werewolfs signature to see how the nose drops as the gun is fired and the size of the muzzle flash despite fairly substantial flash hiders on the gun muzzles.

    The second attempt involved a chin turret with a much less powerful 23mm twin barrel cannon with a much smaller propellent case but with a fairly heavy projectile (good for HE payload).

    The thing is that the twin 23mm gun solution was not perfected till well after the Ka-50 and Mi-28 prototypes had already been produced... though none of these guns are new... the twin barrel 30mm cannon is a longer version of that fitted to the Su-25 while the twin 23mm cannon is widely used on the MiG-21, -23, Il-76 rear guns, etc etc.

    Basically the twin 23mm gun swapped muzzle velocity for rate of fire and in doing so became a devastating air to air and air to ground weapon. Muzzle velocity is only 700m/s, but the recoil is greatly reduced and much more ammo can be carried for the same space.

    Against a fast moving target high velocity ammo is not so important as most people seem to think... to penetrate armour velocity is important, but against fast moving targets the choice of a hunter is usually a shotgun which has subsonic pellets in a cluster that allows for the evasive manouvers of the target.

    GSh-23L was unfavored because they wanted the 30x165mm calibre on it and during that time there was only one cannon that could be considered 2A42, while GSh-30-1 and 2A72 were not considered due longer barrel or due design like on GSh-30-1 which was designed specifically for jets and to many modifications would be needed to make it useful on Kamov or Mil helicopters.

    The 2A42 is a standard Army cannon... its only problem was it tended to pump fumes in the crew compartment of BMP-2s when used... the 2A72 was the solution to that problem... it had a longer recoil path and lower rate of fire which largely eliminated the problem in the BMP-3. The GSH-301 is just too light and not capable of regular long burst use... though it is an excellent cannon.

    Unfortunatley it is not negligible.
    Watch the BMPT gun engagement video. You will spot that the guns are shaking horizontally not vertically like most guns do when there is barrel flexing. That barrel flexing is to blame on the design of directing gases against each other. Making them both diagonal in same direction would decrease that barrel flexing significantly and increase accuracy to what it should be

    If it was that big a problem rotating the muzzle brakes 45 degrees could be done with a spanner...
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    par far

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    Post  par far on Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:17 pm

    If the Iraqi government asked for Russian air support, would Russia say Yes? And if they do say yes, what air base would the Russian Air Force use? Would Russia want to help with air support?
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:58 pm

    par far wrote:If the Iraqi government asked for Russian air support, would Russia say Yes?

    They already said yes, they're just waiting for Iraq to give the go ahead.

    And if they do say yes, what air base would the Russian Air Force use?

    According to sheytanelkebir, these are the options for Russian basing.

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Hypothetically, if Iraq were to submit a request for assistance to the Russian Federation, and Russia were to agree to fly combat missions, how would these missions be executed? Latakia is at capacity, and although they could fly missions from mainland Russia, it wouldn't be very efficient in the long run. New base in Iraq? Borrow a field from Iran?

    Kut Airbase already has the following:
    1-Chinese Team training and operating maintaining the CH-4B UCAV
    2- Russian Team training on and maintaining Iraqi Mi17 / Mi28 / Mi35
    3- Some Iraqi SU-25s based out of there too.

    Its a massive place and without any "US and allied state" presence at all... in fact that's where that predator drone crashed a week ago even though the area was neither a flightpath to ISIS land and hundreds of km from any ISIS types... it seems uncle sam was snooping around Kut.

    Here's Kut airbase (note its an old sat image, facilities have been upgraded since...)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.488117&lon=45.760374&z=14&m=b


    Near Kut there is "suwayra" air base that the Korean Chaebol Hanwha is renovating for Iraqs T-50IQ. Also no US presence there... but Koreans are there.

    and here's Suwayra (once again old sat image):
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.940223&lon=44.632001&z=14&m=b


    If the russians don't want to base out of Kut or Suwayra for whatever reason... they can choose to operate out of...

    Nu'maniah air base (next to the old tank factory which is now being renovated for production)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.512512&lon=45.336070&z=15&m=b

    or if they want to get closer to the action... then Samarra East airbase is both secure as well as close to the front line.
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.161818&lon=44.259195&z=15&m=b


    obviously they'd avoid any base with US presence like Al Assad, Habaniya, Balad, Baghdad Muthanna, Tikrit AB etc...

    Would Russia want to help with air support?

    What do you mean by air support, because Isis got no air-force??
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    iraqidabab

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    Post  iraqidabab on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:18 pm

    Tikrit AB has Americans? Thought that base only has Iraqis, no reports of Americans there as far as I know. It was never taken over by IS and siege broken after Tikrit recapture.
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    par far

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    Post  par far on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:21 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    par far wrote:If the Iraqi government asked for Russian air support, would Russia say Yes?

    They already said yes, they're just waiting for Iraq to give the go ahead.

    And if they do say yes, what air base would the Russian Air Force use?

    According to sheytanelkebir, these are the options for Russian basing.

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Hypothetically, if Iraq were to submit a request for assistance to the Russian Federation, and Russia were to agree to fly combat missions, how would these missions be executed? Latakia is at capacity, and although they could fly missions from mainland Russia, it wouldn't be very efficient in the long run. New base in Iraq? Borrow a field from Iran?

    Kut Airbase already has the following:
    1-Chinese Team training and operating maintaining the CH-4B UCAV
    2- Russian Team training on and maintaining Iraqi Mi17 / Mi28 / Mi35
    3- Some Iraqi SU-25s based out of there too.

    Its a massive place and without any "US and allied state" presence at all... in fact that's where that predator drone crashed a week ago even though the area was neither a flightpath to ISIS land and hundreds of km from any ISIS types... it seems uncle sam was snooping around Kut.

    Here's Kut airbase (note its an old sat image, facilities have been upgraded since...)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.488117&lon=45.760374&z=14&m=b


    Near Kut there is "suwayra" air base that the Korean Chaebol Hanwha is renovating for Iraqs T-50IQ. Also no US presence there... but Koreans are there.

    and here's Suwayra (once again old sat image):
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.940223&lon=44.632001&z=14&m=b


    If the russians don't want to base out of Kut or Suwayra for whatever reason... they can choose to operate out of...

    Nu'maniah air base (next to the old tank factory which is now being renovated for production)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.512512&lon=45.336070&z=15&m=b

    or if they want to get closer to the action... then Samarra East airbase is both secure as well as close to the front line.
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.161818&lon=44.259195&z=15&m=b


    obviously they'd avoid any base with US presence like Al Assad, Habaniya, Balad, Baghdad Muthanna, Tikrit AB etc...

    Would Russia want to help with air support?

    What do you mean by air support, because Isis got no air-force??


    Thank you for the reply AlfaT8, what meant by "Would Russia want to help with air support?" was would Russia help Iraq with bombing the terrorists in Iraq and after reading your post, i got my answer and that is yes. Thank you.



    What is you guys opinion, will Russia ever get the nod to use it's air force in Iraq? If so, what planes would they use?
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    Post  iraqidabab on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:43 pm

    Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.
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    Post  NationalRus on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:46 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.

    i agree we have thousand's of ways to deepen our military cooperation no need to go all in on the first hand played
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    par far

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    Post  par far on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:51 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.


    This is what I also think, Russia can provide them with live to update satellite pictures or something, going in right now is just too risky. I don't think Iraq will get those F-16's, Iraq should just ask for their money back and buy Russian fighters.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:56 pm

    Indeed satellite intel will be very important, Russia can provide that together with other intel. SIGINT especially, SIGINT through training and selling equipment to pick up radio signals.

    Aside from that Iraq needs to get ahead with it's information technology field, both for civillian and military sector. Some terrorist(supporters) used to literally tweet/post online whilst living in Iraq. Intel agency requires help.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:49 pm

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSMK7mRWIAEn8Kr

    In Iraq, Salahuddin province, ISIS executes two alleged spies with M249 5,56mm light machine gun.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:03 am

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.

    I disagree, i think the problems you speak of will either go away or be forced to shake hands and work together, if the U.S wants to leave then good riddance, turning hostile to the Iraq gov will only convince them to take there business elsewhere, F-16s can easily be replaced with either Mig-29 or Yak-130.

    Don't think they need to send a huge force either, on top of that your forgetting the CSTO, Russia can handle the air and Iraq,Iran,Kurds and later even Syria can take the ground and even then there's the possibility of China participation as well.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:36 am

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.

    Agree the US is showing every little bit of its true face with Iraq. Let's hope you prevail and fast.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:07 am

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.

    Iraq is already being treated like sh*t by the US and its goons. That is why you have ISIS on your territory running amok.
    Instead of F-16 trash you can get Su-30 series jets like India. If Iraq wants to stay relatively intact it needs to beat
    ISIS. As posted on this board and elsewhere, the US attacks on ISIS in Syria and Iraq are a sham. Russia is already
    enabling Iraqi progress against ISIS by diverting ISIS resources into Syria. I am not so sure Iraq does not need a real
    air campaign against ISIS and will do fine just by itself. It certainly has not looked this way up until the Russian campaign
    in Syria.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:54 am

    iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi gov wants Russian help, but inviting Russia brings too many problems so I don't think they'll do it.

    And the major problem is not that the US would quit 'helping', the major problem is they will turn hostile and again not recognize the Iraqi gov, remaining dozens of F-16's won't be delivered anymore. Their regional slaves will be allowed to treat Iraq like Syria.

    To stop all this Russia would have to send in huge forces in Iraq, which is unlikely to happen. I really doubt it at the current situation, maybe Russia-Iraq cooperation will intensify after Iraq regained it's territory.

    They've come up with a compromise solution....Russia can attack Daesh convoys in Iraqi territory from Syria
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    Post  iraqidabab on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:57 am

    I think the agreement was still remaining to strikes in Syria, Russia keeps an eye with satellites/drones on Syria-Iraq border movement and does some strikes.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:16 am

    iraqidabab wrote:I think the agreement was still remaining to strikes in Syria, Russia keeps an eye with satellites/drones on Syria-Iraq border movement and does some strikes.

    It's not clear....because it was said they would target Daesh convoys coming from Syria into Iraq and vice versa...why would they need Iraqi permission to attack targets inside Syria?
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    Post  sheytanelkebir on Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:46 pm

    I am guessing there is leeway to target the isis convoys even after they cross the border.

    Uncle Sam won't be happy because that airspace is under their control... But they would have to coordinate directly with the Russians in the air.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:18 am









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    Post  Guest on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:32 pm



    Kay, if i understood this right this video was retrieved from the ISIS drone that Popular Mobilization Forces shot in Iraq and then cutscened it into video they took on the ground....i think.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:30 am

    Militarov wrote:Kay, if i understood this right this video was retrieved from the ISIS drone that Popular Mobilization Forces  shot in Iraq and then cutscened it into video they took on the ground....i think.

    Looks like it....good find
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    Post  Guest on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:14 pm

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSWIM0qXIAA0gLb

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSWIMzwWcAA2KWJ

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSWIM4YWUAAi1Nu

    Winter clothing for Peshmerga fighters, sent by Germany arrives at Erbil.
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    Post  whir on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:28 pm

    Militarov wrote:IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSWIMzwWcAA2KWJ
    Winter clothing for Peshmerga fighters, sent by Germany arrives at Erbil.
    Inside a Russian An-124 Laughing.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:51 pm

    whir wrote:
    Militarov wrote:IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSWIMzwWcAA2KWJ
    Winter clothing for Peshmerga fighters, sent by Germany arrives at Erbil.
    Inside a Russian An-124 Laughing.

    Commercial transport Smile
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    Post  Guest on Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:44 pm

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSZ33WFUAAAT7PP

    M4A1, even with Aimpoint Comp M4 sight. Pic taken in Ramadi.

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 Aimpoint_CompM4_Best_Deal_Packages
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    par far

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    Post  par far on Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:50 pm

    Militarov wrote:IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 CSZ33WFUAAAT7PP

    M4A1, even with Aimpoint Comp M4 sight. Pic taken in Ramadi.

    IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1 - Page 30 Aimpoint_CompM4_Best_Deal_Packages


    They really are arming their terrorists well(the money for this most likely came from the Saudis).

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