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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2020 4:40 am


    Anyway, my point was that gliding back to the surface using the atmosphere is vastly smarter than burning fuel to fight gravity to achieve
    a vertical landing. As you noted, it reduces the payload substantially. It is just another SpaceX gimmick. Like their so-called ventilators for
    Covid-19.

    Which is what I was trying to say... using rocket fuel to land only makes sense with docking in space or landing on objects with no atmosphere like the moon or an asteroid... when the primary landing site will be earth then wings are much more efficient and reliable...

    Agreed. Either Karma doesn't work or it works very slow.

    However, we as individuals can develop a value system without citing such supra-human divine database & evaluation

    If Karma worked then life could be fair, but life isn't fair... good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people... life is random.

    But random is no way to live your life, we can survive if we acted like the US... always in our own personal interests and screw everyone else.

    A human on their own is weak, but a group of humans working together is immensely strong and powerful... it was not opposable thumbs and tools that make us more successful than other animals, it is the ability to communicate and work together to achieve things as a group what we could not achieve on our own.

    To work together we need trust and honesty and reliability and lots of other features... if you meet those levels then you can be accepted and part of a community... if you choose to be selfish you will usually end up fighting alone... which makes you weaker and more vulnerable.

    Being open and honest leaves you open to abuse, but that is not a good reason to not be open and honest... just be more careful who you trust...

    Right now the American people trust Musk, and he is effectively abusing that trust by making promises and claims and taking their money for stuff I don't think he will be able to deliver...

    As mentioned on this forum, I suspect the Military are supporting him so they can effectively get funding for stuff they couldn't push through themselves... it is a bit like the joke that was the JSF programme... Boeing never had any intention of trying to compete with the F-35.... they spent their time and money developing technology they could use on their drones and other products using funding for the JSF programme...

    Of course with all the problems with the F-35 did they still make the wrong choice... would Boeing have been better and fixing the problems and avoiding cost increases... well their efforts regarding the MAX failures suggests not...

    Regarding going to Mars... my understanding was that the plan was to send robots to Mars to set up a base and start producing liquid water supplies that would ultimately be modified into hydrogen and oxygen supplies so in theory when the mission with humans leaves earth there should already be a fuel supply for evac on the ground ready to use if they need it. An expedition to Mars could include using graders to level a large area of land to create an airfield for landing... hell you could use an airship filled with hydrogen that is grown organically to float up to the very top of the Martian atmosphere... with a bit of propulsion it might be able to escape into space on its own if the materials can be made light enough and strong enough...


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun May 17, 2020 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 17, 2020 4:43 am

    Sujoy wrote:Agreed. Either Karma doesn't work or it works very slow.

    However, we as individuals can develop a value system without citing such supra-human divine database & evaluation

    I didn't invoke any supernatural influences. Karma may originally be a Hindu/Buddhist concept, but the idea of the cumulative effects of endless lying, stealing and cheating hardly requires the intervention of Shiva the Destroyer. Its a natural world process of actions having unintended consequences, and you can see it happening all around you. Empires rise, behave badly in their arrogant hubris, and then inevitably fall as the negative consequences of their misbehaviors finally catch up with them. It will happen to the USA, sooner than people think, and no amount of frenzied self-exultation, hypocritical virtue signalling and smug circle-jerking from these stupid arrogant #$%&s is going to miraculously save them.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 17, 2020 5:08 am

    My idea of an ideal reuseable system is the use of winged flyback boosters like Baikal but using methalox propellents so that the engines don't suffer from coking and can be returned to service with an absolute minimum of  refurbishment.  The problem with Musks vertical landing method is that the vehicle flys tail-first thru its own rocket wash resulting in damage to the engine bay and external scorching of the core.  SpaceX doesn't discuss the real costs of refurbishment but i reckon they are probably very high and probably require a complete dismantlement and inspection of the 1st stage, and replacement of all damaged thermal protection blanketing at the very least (and probably a good deal of cabling as well).

    Recovery of strap-ons is fairly easy, but the central core is much harder as it will have high altitude at burn-out and mass efficiency is paramount to maximizing the payload to orbit.  Any solution will be more expensive and gives diminishing returns.  My idea would be make this stage (and the upper stages) expendable.  Not really an issue for an A5-type modular vehicle as the core is same size as the strap-ons and reusing 4/5 of the 1st stage hardware is good enough.

    In the longer term, a vertically launched flyback winged (or lifting body) booster would be an efficient system, but it should leverage Baikal strap-ons to avoid the need to carry a large number of heavy engines. The main impediment here is development cost & operating expenses vs cost of expendable cores and upper stages. Personally i doubt that its cost effective.

    Finally, the issue that is usually ignored is that excess reliance on re-useability means that your production lines will degrade as the frequency of new-builds declines.  The Shuttle was a great example as once the 5x units were delivered the line was shutdown and the tooling disposed of.  That equals no ability to replace lost units like Challenger or Columbia.  The Angara assembly plant will kick into gear once Vostochny is ready and the last Protons are used.  How many new build F9 cores will be built each year compared to URM-1s?  You can't maintain manufacturing skills and worker knowledge on refurbishments alone...
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy on Sun May 17, 2020 9:21 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:I didn't invoke any supernatural influences. Karma may originally be a Hindu/Buddhist concept, but the idea of the cumulative effects of endless lying, stealing and cheating hardly requires the intervention of Shiva the Destroyer.
    I'm not saying you did or GarryB did. I was just trying to explain that Karma on an individual level does not work. If it did how come mass murders like Churchill and many like him lived and died in peace?

    Big_Gazza wrote:It will happen to the USA, sooner than people think, and no amount of frenzied self-exultation, hypocritical virtue signalling and smug circle-jerking from these stupid arrogant #$%&s is going to miraculously save them.
    Probably, in the fullness of time. But this event that you described will probably unfold a hundred years from now. Even the UK that carried out far more genocides than the US has managed so far continue to exist as a major power despite losing almost all its colonies. So the negative consequences of their despicable actions have not yet caught up with them.

    Maybe a future generation in the US and UK will eventually suffer. But my point still remains - all these mass murders that US creates Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Bush, Clinton continue to live a life of joy and peace. Neither are they behind bars nor are they awaiting execution. Had the concept of KARMA been true, this would not have happened.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun May 17, 2020 11:35 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:My idea of an ideal reuseable system is the use of winged flyback boosters like Baikal but using methalox propellents so that the engines don't suffer from coking and can be returned to service with an absolute minimum of  refurbishment.  The problem with Musks vertical landing method is that the vehicle flys tail-first thru its own rocket wash resulting in damage to the engine bay and external scorching of the core.  SpaceX doesn't discuss the real costs of refurbishment but i reckon they are probably very high and probably require a complete dismantlement and inspection of the 1st stage, and replacement of all damaged thermal protection blanketing at the very least (and probably a good deal of cabling as well).

    Recovery of strap-ons is fairly easy, but the central core is much harder as it will have high altitude at burn-out and mass efficiency is paramount to maximizing the payload to orbit.  Any solution will be more expensive and gives diminishing returns.  My idea would be make this stage (and the upper stages) expendable.  Not really an issue for an A5-type modular vehicle as the core is same size as the strap-ons and reusing 4/5 of the 1st stage hardware is good enough.

    In the longer term, a vertically launched flyback winged (or lifting body) booster would be an efficient system, but it should leverage Baikal strap-ons to avoid the need to carry a large number of heavy engines. The main impediment here is development cost & operating expenses vs cost of expendable cores and upper stages. Personally i doubt that its cost effective.

    Finally, the issue that is usually ignored is that excess reliance on re-useability means that your production lines will degrade as the frequency of new-builds declines.  The Shuttle was a great example as once the 5x units were delivered the line was shutdown and the tooling disposed of.  That equals no ability to replace lost units like Challenger or Columbia.  The Angara assembly plant will kick into gear once Vostochny is ready and the last Protons are used.  How many new build F9 cores will be built each year compared to URM-1s?  You can't maintain manufacturing skills and worker knowledge on refurbishments alone...

    The Angara does not have a special first stage core. It is an assembly of 3-5 (and possibly 7) identical modules. So they can all burn out at the same
    time leaving the second stage to fly through the outer atmosphere. So all the first stage modules are in principle recoverable.

    The Soyuz 5 will have the same modular assembly but the modules are much larger so will pose more of a challenge to glide back to
    the surface. But this is not a show stopper by any means.

    Vertical lending is stupid since it is not symmetric with vertical launch. The rocket's guidance system steers the launch phase to the right
    target. Steering the landing phase onto a small target area is harder since there is less distance slack to work with. Even though this
    looks like some big technological achievement, it really isn't since it is pointless. Recovery by gliding is real technological evolution.




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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon May 18, 2020 12:48 am

    kvs wrote:The Angara does not have a special first stage core.   It is an assembly of 3-5 (and possibly 7) identical modules.   So they can all burn out at the same
    time leaving the second stage to fly through the outer atmosphere.   So all the first stage modules are in principle recoverable.

    I mostly agree, but the overall lift capability is much enhanced if the fuel in the core is conserved on low throttle until the strap-ons burn-out and are jettisoned. The core then throttles up and burns to completion at high altitude. You'll put a heavier payload into orbit using staged burns than running all stages at the same rate.

    KSP (kerbal space program) is a pretty good sandbox for playing around with rocket designs Very Happy Try building an A5 analog and not igniting the core stack until you're at altitude, and compare the result with burning all stages simultaneously.
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    Post  kvs on Mon May 18, 2020 4:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:The Angara does not have a special first stage core.   It is an assembly of 3-5 (and possibly 7) identical modules.   So they can all burn out at the same
    time leaving the second stage to fly through the outer atmosphere.   So all the first stage modules are in principle recoverable.

    I mostly agree, but the overall lift capability is much enhanced if the fuel in the core is conserved on low throttle until the strap-ons burn-out and are jettisoned.  The core then throttles up and burns to completion at high altitude.  You'll put a heavier payload into orbit using staged burns than running all stages at the same rate.

    KSP (kerbal space program) is a pretty good sandbox for playing around with rocket designs Very Happy Try building an A5 analog and not igniting the core stack until you're at altitude, and compare the result with burning all stages simultaneously.

    Thanks for the advice. I was going on the basis of simpler considerations. The faster the burn the less spurious fuel mass that needs to be lofted.
    So a slowly ascending rocket is much more massive than a faster one. The extreme limit is a bullet and that is what was used by H.G. Wells
    and Jules Verne for their fiction. Although I doubt any human could survive the initial acceleration no matter what scale the gun had.

    So it would on the surface appear that the non-core boosters would be wasting fuel lofting the slower mass depleting central booster in addition
    to the other stages and the payload. But it looks like there are some tricks in this problem.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 20, 2020 4:35 pm

    I wonder how Space X flight will go?
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    Post  kvs on Wed May 20, 2020 6:37 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I wonder how Space X flight will go?

    I would not want to be an astronaut on anything Space X calls man-rated. But then Space X is not using its own tech for its
    core activities. Musk's dabbling with his own projects is a total farce./

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm

    I wouldn't want to be on a Dragon capsule that ever has to fire its Draco rockets.  They tested a returned unmanned capsule only to have it explode on the test stand...

    Stupid design, and cannot understand how these idiots can possibly man-rate a vehicle that has its emergency ascent escape rockets built into the manned capsule.  The entire concept is just nonsensical, but nevertheless these clowns are going to fly in it.  Suspect
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat May 30, 2020 2:59 am

    SpaceX Starship SN4 prototype explodes after engine test

    https://www.rt.com/usa/490189-spacex-musk-starship-explosion/

    The Starship SN4 prototype, built by Elon Musk’s SpaceX company for interplanetary flights, has blown up after an engine test in Texas. It’s already the third prototype to explode this year.
    A live broadcast on NASA’s website showed white smoke coming out of the spacecraft before it was obliterated in a massive explosion.

    Laughing I won't even pretend to be sympathetic. Suck on that Musk (and your clueless cabal of empty-headed groupies)!! What an arrogant self-promoting trash-talking fake...

    Explosion video

    Just...beautiful.... Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2020 11:15 am

    But this stuff is easy so anything going boom is just poor quality control or incompetence... fire everyone...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2020 1:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:But this stuff is easy so anything going boom is just poor quality control or incompetence... fire everyone...

    When it keeps going boom for this long you either change design or fire the gophers

    But since the guy who came up with the design is the same one who is writing the checks option 1 is not in the cards

    Good thing state enterprises don't have this problem and would be complete morons if they failed to implement either of the two should they ever find themselves in this situation... seriously, they would have to be either completely retarded or insanely corrupt (probably both)

    Should that kind of situation occur in state run enterprise anywhere it would be absolutely pathetic...



    On the brighter note for mankind's space endeavors:



    Funny how this piece of news went completely unnoticed on this forum, we are usually quite prompt and punctual... Oh well... Suspect



    Mister Jim Bridenstine was gracious enough to offer Roskosmos to continue joint missions to ISS by using mixed crews on both Dragon and Soyuz instead of buying seats like before

    We shall see if his counterpart Mister Trampoline Man will be able to muster enough dignity to accept the offer without making an absolute ass of himself (and his country by association) in the process as has been the norm so far



    Oh and just one question: anyone​ have any updates on development of PTK-NP?

    Last info we got was a year ago when Trampoline Man attempted to change ship's name again but as of actual development news we had nothing for years...



    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 31, 2020 3:09 pm

    Why would roscosmo go with any agreement with a nation that wants to see them dead? There is nothing in it for them. And while your hate for Rogozin is unfounded, he isn't wrong in saying they need a trampoline - the US has to use Russian engines.

    What America just achieved is nothing that Russia didn't achieve 60 years ago and doing today or what China is doing now.  Should we be proud? No. US had shuttle which was far more fantastic of an achievement than this. But it kept blowing up so they scrapped it. This has had 1 success so far but judging by previous space x disasters I wouldnt be too happy just yet. And this achievement comes at the backbone of taxpayers and what not so spaceX has its entire history thanks to NASA so I consider it more of a win for NASA than some bullshit "private" company.

    But Russia would gain little over any cooperation beyond selling them engines and parts. Russia gains much more by their own launches and people paying for tickets to space.  Maybe this will indeed push Russia to quickly develop newer stuff but Roscosmos is going through a massive change right now - building the new space center and combining and moving all R&D facilities to the new location.  So things won't progress much till that and Vostochney second pad is finished and since military took over, it will get done.

    As for TPK-NP, it was stated late last year it's slated for 2022 with a robot launch. It's year is same for test launch of Soyuz 5 which makes sense since it's designed for it now. So we still have two years to go.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2020 4:01 pm


    miketheterrible wrote:Why would roscosmo go with any agreement with a nation that wants to see them dead

    Then why are they going with agreements now?

    For a proud nation that don't need no NASA they do seem to be grovelling a lot



    miketheterrible wrote:
    There is nothing in it for them.

    Apparently there is because they keep bending over backwards to cut down launch costs not because they want to commit cheaper for themselves but because they are still chasing that market segment that was thrown to them as a pittance during 90' but which was never theirs to begin with and which they will never be getting back



    miketheterrible wrote:
    And while your hate for Rogozin is unfounded

    He is incompetent semiliterate blowhard moron who ended up running a space program because Roskosmos became dumping ground for idiots



    miketheterrible wrote:
    he isn't wrong in saying they need a trampoline

    This is clearly a sarcasm because you demonstrated in practice that you are far more intelligent than that

    Correct?



    miketheterrible wrote:
    the US has to use Russian engines.

    This meme should be buried already

    They never had to use them

    They had option of using them among others which they took advantage of

    They still have that option but they always prefer their own and predominantly launch using their own



    miketheterrible wrote:
    What America just achieved is nothing that Russia didn't achieve 60 years ago

    They achieved something that both USA and USSR achieved 60 years ago which is to develop and use completely new manned spacecraft

    Now they achieved it again

    Russia is yet to accomplish that achievement, they are still just leeching off Soviet accomplishments



    miketheterrible wrote:And this achievement comes at the backbone of taxpayers

    Obviously

    Gass, grass or ass, nobody rides for free

    Compared to Russian taxpayers who are yet to see any results



    miketheterrible wrote:consider it more of a win for NASA

    Of course it's a win for NASA, who else would be winning? They are ones calling the shots
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 31, 2020 4:15 pm

    They aren't grovelling. Russia is still simply selling launches. It's a way to make additional money, so what? Any agreement where Russia uses NASA assets is against Russia's need for self sustainment.

    As for launches and new systems, Russia's use of Soyuz 2 is a Russian design. Soyuz 2 was created after USSR. The capsule has Soyuz MS which is a overhaul.

    The achievements of SpaceX is fine but Russia has been building what they use now since 2004 so why change it especially since it works? It would be like reinventing the wheel just to say you did it even though you were making the wheel and made major improvements already. Angara first flight was also the first of a new design. Now they plan for further development.

    And besides the Merlin engines, they need RD-191. Even Trump was bitching about having to "make their own" thus give indication they purchased the RD-191 for their need and not because of charity. You are simply assuming and I know your bullshit should be sarcasm cause I know you are smarter than that
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 31, 2020 4:29 pm

    What this all does mean though is Roscosmos will become less lazy and jump into gear to continue to compete.  With lack of competition they became complacent.

    With Vostochney now being worked on again, and to be completed sometime soon, and with work on Soyuz 2 and the consolidation of Roscosmos enterprises, I do have hopes.  I think some people here expect a lot here and now when they are concentrating on a whole slew of things while space x and NASA concentrate on one thing at a time (which is something I also agree with rather than taking multiple projects at same time which causes issues and setbacks).

    It also seems Russia's interest is more in satellite launches, drones (once again, satellites) and space based observation. I think space exploration seems to be low on their list and that may have more to do with issues that existed prior to Rogozin and need to streamline Roscosmos assets.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2020 4:50 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:he isn't wrong in saying they need a trampoline
    And right on cue thumbsup

    Did Russians really think that people will forget them shooting their big dumb mouths off?

    Dumb crap you say and do will ALWAYS come back to bite you on the ass

    Also as you can see in the article it's absolute race to the bottom among Russians on who will demonstrate more pathetic butthurt lubricated will copious amounts of sour grape juice Razz

    Behold:



    'Trampoline Is Working': Musk Taunts Russia

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/05/31/trampoline-is-working-musk-taunts-russia-a70433

    By AFP

    Russian space agency chief Dmitry Rogozin once ridiculed the lack of a U.S. manned flight programme, saying it might as well "deliver its astronauts to the ISS by using a trampoline".

    Six years later Elon Musk and NASA had the last laugh.

    "The trampoline is working," quipped the 48-year-old U.S. entrepreneur at a post-flight news conference alongside NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine.

    Both men laughed. "It's an inside joke," Musk added.


    On Saturday, his SpaceX made history by becoming the first commercial company to send humans into orbit.

    The U.S. feat and Musk's joke set Russian social media alight, with wits ridiculing Rogozin, and the Russian space chief's name began trending on Twitter.

    "How do you like this, Dmitry Rogozin?" one critic prodded.

    Russia still prides itself on sending the first human into orbit in 1961 and other achievements of the Soviet-era space programme.

    Rogozin has remained conspicuously silent but his spokesman was forced to react.

    "We don't really understand the hysteria sparked by the successful launch of a Crew Dragon spacecraft," spokesman Vladimir Ustimenko said on Twitter.

    "What should have happened a long time ago happened," he added.

    While cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev, Roscosmos executive director for crewed space programmes, saluted the US achievement in a brief video address, not everyone was in such a gracious mood.

    Alexey Pushkov, a member of the upper house of parliament, declared Saturday's flight was not a big deal.

    "This is a flight to the International Space Station, not to Mars," he said on messaging app Telegram.

    He pronounced it time to stop ferrying Americans to the orbiting lab.

    "Russia needs spaces for its own young cosmonauts.



    The levels of pathetic butthurt are off the charts today, I knew it would be good but even I wasn't expecting mental gymnastics of this magnitude ("our young cosmonauts" part had me in stitches) lol1

    Here, maybe this ever so appropriate song will act as a balm for sore ego of Trampoline Man and his clown car crew:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSPuVFWiyhY



    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 31, 2020 4:53 pm

    Hey, they aren't wrong. While I give credit to Musk for this launch, the fact they still buy RD-191 and that yes, they should have been doing this years ago gives indication they aren't wrong.

    I'm floored that last US human space launch was 9 years ago.  But as said, this should light a fire under Roscosmos ass.

    The butt hurt are Americans because now doing something that Russia and China been doing for years now, and claiming how great they are doing it, is laughable.  The simple fact is they renewed an ability to do something now they used to do decades ago is just pathetic.  The gloating of this is so sad.  Russia made good money from US to ferry US astronauts for years Laughing

    But hey, at least NASA and Roscosmos themselves will continue to cooperate so the rest is all petty nonsense. But I forsee a change where Russia will become more dependent on cooperation with China. Also, once they finish their new Space corporation group, it may get a boost in budget. But who knows.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 31, 2020 5:08 pm

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/132785/



    By now, the launch complex for the Soyuz-2 family of missiles is already fully operational, and in 2019, construction of the second stage of the cosmodrome — the launch complex for the Angara launch vehicles-began. Construction works on the East coast are increasing at a rapid pace, and they should be completed in 2022. From January 2023, first Autonomous, then complex tests of equipment will begin here, so that everything will be ready for the launch of the rocket by autumn.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2020 10:03 pm


    I will just preface this by saying that this entire humiliation did not need to happen and the only reason Russia is laughing stock worldwide today is because Rogozin couldn't keep his sub-nasal rectum shut

    But instead they are being ridiculed because one feeble-minded simpleton was not capable of comprehending the fact that USA was going to develop manned spacecraft no matter what, everyone was aware of it except his retarded Majesty

    NASA just wanted to make a spaceship, not to humiliate Russia but thanks to that degenerate they got both for the same price



    For Russia, SpaceX success is 'wakeup call'

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/31/world/russia-spacex-success-wakeup-call/

    MOSCOW – Russia has lost its long-held monopoly as the only country able to ferry astronauts to the International Space Station following the flawless manned launch by U.S. company SpaceX.

    The Russian space agency congratulated the United States and Elon Musk's SpaceX on the first crewed flight ever by a private company, but experts said the launch should be a wakeup call for Roscosmos.

    "The success of the mission will provide us with additional opportunities that will benefit the whole international program," cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev, Roscosmos executive director for crewed space programs, said in a brief video address.

    Saturday's launch was the first of American astronauts from U.S. soil since the mothballing of the U.S. shuttle program in 2011 that left Russia's more basic and reliable Soyuz spacecraft solely responsible for transporting crews.

    Astronauts since then have all trained at Star City outside Moscow and studied Russian before blasting off from Baikonur launchpad in Kazakhstan.

    "These flights have been an unexpected chance for Moscow to keep producing Soyuz and retain a significant voice in negotiations over the ISS," said Isabelle Sourbes-Verger, a specialist in space policy at the French National Centre for Scientific Research.

    The Russian space agency has also earned large sums by ferrying astronauts: a seat in the Soyuz costs NASA around $80 million.

    If SpaceX starts taking up all U.S. astronauts, "the annual losses could be more than $200 million, a significant loss for Roscosmos's budget of around $2 billion," said Andrei Ionin, an expert at the Tsiolkovsky Space Academy in Moscow.

    While Musk, the ambitious entrepreneur behind SpaceX, has named the price of a seat on his spacecraft as $60 million, Roscosmos chief Dmitry Rogozin has announced Russia is working to cut its price by 30 percent.

    Ionin voiced skepticism over the plan.

    "SpaceX is saving money by using cheap engines and manufacturing almost all its own parts," he said. "To do this, Russia would have to change its production process."

    Another option is a barter system proposed by NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine: for every Russian riding in a U.S. spaceship, one American would take a Soyuz.

    'Wakeup call'

    In a broader sense, the appearance of a rival such as SpaceX should be a "wakeup call" for the Russian space industry, which is "in far worse shape than those in charge admit," said Ionin.

    A decade ago Russia was behind a large proportion of the world's launches, but that is no longer the case today due to competition from China and SpaceX.

    "When we were losing the launches market, Roscosmos said everything was fine because we were the only ones sending people up to the ISS. Now that fig leaf has fallen off."

    Russia's space sector is marred by corruption, with multiple scandals over the construction of the new Vostochny launchpad in the Far East.

    The country's space industry has also failed to innovate, concentrating on modifying "Soviet technology without any major evolution," Ionin said.

    The Russian space program is renowned for having sent the first man into space in 1961 and launching the first satellite four years earlier, and its achievements remain a major source of national pride.

    But more recently it has endured a series of setbacks, notably losing expensive spacecraft and satellites in recent years.

    The rise of private companies like SpaceX, which has ambitions to conquer Mars, risks leaving Russia irrecoverably far behind, experts said.

    Mars next?

    For Russia to keep up, a government body independent of the space sector's main players needs to develop a new strategy, Ionin said.

    "U.S. President (Donald) Trump reestablished a body — the National Space Council — to set policy goals. We need to do the same thing."

    Some observers sense a lack of political will from President Vladimir Putin who appears to be more focused on using rocket science to develop military capabilities, particularly hypersonic missiles.

    "For Putin, space exploration isn't a priority when it comes to showing off the might of the state," said independent space expert Vitaly Yegorov.

    For Ionin, reinvigorating the Russian space program requires international cooperation, too.

    Sourbes-Verger suggested any manned international mission to Mars "could be an opportunity for Russia to regain its standing by sharing its skills."

    But, she said, the costs of any such mission would be so high that China — now the world's second space power in terms of launches — would need to be included.

    Yet that prospect seems unlikely, she added, given that "the U.S. Congress refuses any space cooperation with China."


    1) Even Russian "experts" instinctively want to panhandle from the USA, doing anything for themselves is unimaginable for them

    2) Trampoline Man is still bullshiting everyone about cutting seat cost just to one-up Musk, he could be giving them away for free but Americans aren't coming back (which seems to be the only important thing for him)

    3) Putin doesn't seem to be too concerned with the way Roskosmos is (mis)managed anyway, he allows that moron to do whatever he wants regardless of consequences

    4) Fact that Rogozin made those dumb comments BEFORE he was appointed head of Roskosmos tells you all you need to know about how seriously whole thing is taken by government and Putin, they just dumped his dumb ass in least important sector of government to get rid of him without concern for consequences

    5) There will be no "international cooperation" in Mars missions, those who can get there are not interested in sharing their accomplishments with losers


    AGAIN: This day would have been nothing special had the Grand Imbecilic Moron kept his fat stupid mouth shut all those years ago (nobody was soliciting his opinion anyway)

    But he didn't and now thanks to him Russia is looking like a clownshow (more than usual)

    I wonder when he will crawl back into the public eye? He is probably waiting for this to blow over like a little bitch that he is but this will not be blowing over ever

    Just looking at what Russian internet users are doing to him online is glory to behold (as they should, he made morons out of all of them)





    x_54_u43
    x_54_u43

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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3 - Page 9 Empty Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sun May 31, 2020 10:28 pm

    "Fuuuuu, Rashka, you are nothing but a taxi cab!"

    "Fuuuuu, Rashka, no one likes your taxi cabs!"

    Anyways, Rogozin was perfectly respectable on Twitter with regards to Crew Dragon today, this whole trampoline conversation gets more and more annoying and really needs to be let go.

    Back to something more productive, recent rumors of a another pulse detonation liquid oxygen-kerosene test from Lyulka-Saturn, something VERY important to Russia's space endeavors.

    TsNIIMash is also leading works on a new spaceplane.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2020 10:35 pm


    Got links for those two?

    Rogozin says he is working on two new spaceships, five new rockets and a new space station but other than his word as have nothing else so something with both sources and Rogozin-free would be a welcome change of pace

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:36 am

    miketheterrible wrote:And this achievement comes at the backbone of taxpayers and what not so spaceX has its entire history thanks to NASA so I consider it more of a win for NASA than some bullshit "private" company.

    Bingo, Musks Falcon reuseable tech comes straight from the work done by NASA researchers.  The USGov handed over tax-payer-funded and owned research IP and transferred personnel to Musks start-up and then generously provided development capital thru the back door in a blatant subsidization scam where flights were purchased at greatly inflated prices.  The US taxpayer has in essence invested in Musks company to the tune of billions of dollars, but they receive ZERO equity and Musk ends up with total ownership.  Crony corrupt capitalism at its finest, Murica style.

    In any sensible nation this would be rightfully seen as corruption of the first order that begs investigation and prosecution.  In the US its considered being an "entrepreneur"... and is considered to be a great virtue. No wonder these monkeys are presiding over a systemic collapse of their failed state.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:45 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:this whole trampoline conversation gets more and more annoying and really needs to be let go.

    ..especially when one considers that Rogozins remark was in direct response to US remarks about banning the purchase of RD-180s as part of their childish dummy-spit over Russia upsetting their little Ukropistan regime-change party and recovering Crimea.  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

    PD has a stick up his arse about Rogozin (I think its fair to say he is the Vann7 of the Space-related threads) but I think its time for it to be extracted.  Give Rogozin his due - he fixed the corruption debacle at Vostochny (dodgy local contractors) and by all accounts the Angara padworks are proceeding very well.  Launch failure rates are down (last year was the first accident-free year on over a decade). Soyuz 5 looks to be proceeding on schedule.  He inherited a mess and he (and his team) is successfully beating the industry back into shape. I'm reasonably happy with his performance, but I guess PD just doesn't like to be proved wrong...


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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